Lindsay Lohan

[SapphireSister]

Let me elaborate - I agree that people need to have consequences for their actions but in Lindsay's case, the punishment does not fit the crime. By that I mean do people really think 90 days of jail time and mandatory rehab is going to "fix" Lindsay and/or teach her a lesson? A person really cannot be helped or change until they truly want to and are ready to surrender. I do not believe Lindsay is at that point (but couldn't say for sure obviously). I agree she should serve some jail time and maybe she'll "learn" a few things about herself in rehab but nothing will change until Lindsay is ready and willing.

[GypsyBlueEyes]

I don't think she is going to learn anything or change her lifestyle in any way, regardless of the punishment. You can tell that she sees herself as the victim and is in no way taking responsibility for any of her choices. Until she does at least those 2 things, nothing will change.

[Nikolaj]

Originally Posted by GODDESS6

so you're agreeing with lindsay that it everyone else's fault that she is in this mess?~

Yes. I guess I am, though I never heard that LL blamed anyone.
"Fault" is not a word that would be used if LL had cancer. She has a disease, an addiction to prescription drugs, which is not her 'fault'. It's not her doctors' fault, either, but there are indications that the medications only worsened her condition, perhaps due to alcohol or illegal drugs. Another disease or two, there. But, at the root of her troubles seem to be the dependency on 2 particular drugs, which she may need to be on for the rest of her life.
Hire her a driver, take away her license, but the jail time is unwarranted for reasons I listed in my previous message.

[JWS]

Originally Posted by GODDESS6

so you're agreeing with lindsay that it everyone else's fault that she is in this mess?~

Yep. Mercedes is to blame for her jumping a curb and smaking that tree.

[GODDESS6]

Originally Posted by JWS

Yep. Mercedes is to blame for her jumping a curb and smaking that tree.

[tilthefirefades]

I feel sorry for her, for many reasons. Mostly because I think she is a person who genuinely needs help. 90 days in jail? pointless, stupid, stupid, and harsh. 90 days in rehab? yes, appropriate, helpful.

Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, what she needs most is a true support system. In order for a user to completely recover, they must get rid of everything that reminds them of whatever they were using, or their past life, etc, etc.

[Nikolaj]

The more I'm reading, I think I do have to make an amendment to my opinion that her problems are not her doctors "fault"-- She is so overmedicated right now, if the list on TMZ is accurate-- dilaudid??? From her dentist?
I've long thought she is an opiate addict, which is caused by a clinical low-grade depression, for which there is no cure. If you have it, you have it, and usual anti-depressants have absolutely no chance of working, so her being on Zoloft is useless. Likely, the adderall is just as much to get her out of bed than it is for ADHD, and the adderall doesn't seem to be a problem. It's helpful and no fun if misused. She'd previously been on oxycodone and percocet, both opiates, which seem to have been discontinued, as she likely couldn't take only the prescribed dosage. The shrink(s) saw that she 'could' ( I assume) 'handle' the other drugs- i.e., take them as directed. The opitates she had trouble with. So she had some dental work and got a prescription for Dilaudid, such a powerful opiate that likely she won't be able to abuse it. Her shrinks need to determine if she indeed does have the 'low grade clinical depression' which explains why her brain needs opiates- in persons with the low grade clinical depression, the craving for opiates is that it gives the brain a sense of well-being that most people have, naturally. It's complicated, and a very serious neurological disorder. There's an excellent web site about the stigma that opiate dependency has, because 'you' feel like it's your fault, but the medical fact is that the brain of the person with clinical low-grade depression suffers from damaged opiate receptors, which causes all kinds of problems, and low grade clinical depression is still largely going undiagnosed. ( I had been on 5 anti-depressants, including Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor and Cymbalta, with no results, wasting more than a year, before I got diagnosed correctly).
So, yes, I know about all of this from first hand experience.
I decided 17 days ago when I ran out of my Percocet 2 weeks early, that I was going to quit after 7 years on the drug. The withdrawal was intense, really bad. My doctor put me on a new drug called Suboxone- which I took for 3 days, then against my doc's advice, stopped. I was dehydrated and so ill, and so depressed, and felt worse than I've ever felt in my life. If you really hate someone, tell them to take Suboxone. It is used to treat opiate dependency, but it was far too strong for me and after the third day, I was supposed to increase my dosage by 300% and I knew my body couldn't take it. Basically, I threw away $400+ dollars between my consultation and filling the prescription for the drug from Hell.
I'm in my 4os. You trust your doctors, generally. But I knew the suboxone was either going to kill me, or I'd face a horrible detox from it months from now, so I bypassed my doctor, talked to 2 pharmacists, and they told me 'your body can't tolerate it, get off it now' and I did. And I feel a million times better. Of course, I stand a good chance at a relapse into percocet dependency, I was on 10mgs a day, 3 times a day, for more than 7 years. But right now, I feel good and don't want to see another opiate again in my life, I'll just 'deal' with the low grade clinical depression. Just having turned 46, I was ready. LL is just turning 24 now, and see, all these medications are just too much for a small woman's body. Or for a man's larger body.
I am still on the Adderall (has never been a problem) and a small-ish dosage of Xanax, and that's plenty.
17 days without one Opiate after 2700 days of 30 mg a day. I'm amazed. I don't feel 'great' but I feel good about it. See, in my 40s, I was 'ready' finally to say 'this is bull**** and no way to live'. Even last year, the thought of running out of my opiates put me into such panic, I'd overmedicate. One builds up a tolerance quite quickly, and I was trying very hard to take the meds as directed.
For Lindsay Lohan, I feel very bad. She'd been following doctors orders to the best of her ability, and the drugs she is allowed to take does not set off that misbegottenly-ordered Scram Bracelet and she is not a criminal, she is ill.
Likely, she's been misdiagnosed and is way, way, overmedicated is my best guess, and I admit that it is a guess.
But those are serious meds she is on, five of them. The opiate craving is the giveaway- low grade clinical depression, which in many or most cases, those of us who have it , have had it since childhood. Her doctors seem to have missed even considering the possibility, or they wouldn't have her on the Zoloft, which is doing nothing. I know the look of being on too many opiates. I had the look. The girl is sick. Ok, young woman.
And the assholes are sending her to jail, when they should be looking closely at 'diminished capacity' due to the long laundry-list of drugs her doctors have had her on since she was a teenager. And her wearing the Scram bracelet, which allowed her to register 'clean' while under the influence of a synthetic morphine--- was, I believe, a violation of her legal rights and it needs to be removed, and all the time she wore the Scram bracelet needs to be credited towards her jail sentence. LL has been in a prison already, for a long time, and the more I read, the more I think her doctors have been the biggest enablers of all. The lawyer should have had all her medications documented and the possibility (ha!) that she is being gravely overmedicated has every bearing on whether or not she was able to comply or 'show up' for certain obligations.

[JWS]

This is all starting to sound like a rerun of the Stevie Nicks - Klonipin saga.

This is really a simple matter. Lindsay Lohan had two DUI's and a drug conviction. She avoided jail the first time around by accepting probation. She has violated the terms of probation by repeatedly skipping out on appointments. Probation was thus revoked. She is not a victim.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by danax6

what?!?! that place still exists?!

what the f were you thinking?

yes. and i don't know. i can't even believe i remembered the URL and my password.

[Nikolaj]

Originally Posted by JWS

This is all starting to sound like a rerun of the Stevie Nicks - Klonipin saga.
She has violated the terms of probation by repeatedly skipping out on appointments. Probation was thus revoked. She is not a victim.

I see your point but totally disagree. I feel LL is a victim, because there have been so many legally prescribed strong narcotics in her system, along with her penchant for alcohol and other partying, that she was neither physically or mentally able to function in a way that is logical to someone without her illnesses. (She should've just stayed home, but it was her age...)
I think she is a victim. You think she isn't. I don't see how she had the mental capacity to accept or even understand the terms of the probation.
Charlie Sheen, well into his 40s, turned down a probation deal with no jail time served for his current domestic violence charges. He'd rather do time in jail than be forced to endure random drug and alcohol screening for years. He knows himself well, I guess.

[GODDESS6]

Originally Posted by JWS

This is all starting to sound like a rerun of the Stevie Nicks - Klonipin saga.

This is really a simple matter. Lindsay Lohan had two DUI's and a drug conviction. She avoided jail the first time around by accepting probation. She has violated the terms of probation by repeatedly skipping out on appointments. Probation was thus revoked. She is not a victim.

we think alike~

[paleshadow]

I think Lindsay, and anyone who gets a DUI should have a mandatory suspension of their license, and serve time. They should be forced to meet with the families of victims of DUI accidents. At the very least they should have to watch PSA's like this one.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I've long thought she is an opiate addict, which is caused by a clinical low-grade depression, for which there is no cure. If you have it, you have it, and usual anti-depressants have absolutely no chance of working, so her being on Zoloft is useless.

I don't have time to elaborate right now but I need to point out that both of these statements are completely untrue. Opiate addiction is not necessarily caused by clinical depression. There is no such thing as "Clinical Low Grade Depression.' One can have Clinical Depression; mild, moderate or severe. There is a form of depression called Dysthymia which is milder and chronic in nature. The statement that anti depressants have "absolutely no chance of working" is false, as well. This may be true in your situation, but everyone is different.

[Nikolaj]

Originally Posted by jannieC

There is no such thing as "Clinical Low Grade Depression.' One can have Clinical Depression; mild, moderate or severe. There is a form of depression called Dysthymia which is milder and chronic in nature. The statement that anti depressants have "absolutely no chance of working" is false, as well. This may be true in your situation, but everyone is different.

I like you, and I believe you, Jannie, but that is my diagnosis, 'low grade clinical depression'- it's a term I have heard for almost 9 years, and my doctor, who is an MD with a masters and phD, told me that the 'usual' anti-depressants (such as Prozac) will have absolutely no results when taken by someone with defective opitate receptors, which I imagine can be caused by a number of things, but in my case, was caused by this chronic 'low grade' depression. "It's just how you are and have always been" was part of her explanation, "and there's no cure, and that's why the anti-depressants don't work for you."
From your description, it sounds like that it's possible she meant 'Dysthymia' but didn't use the term with me. She said for certain I had malfunctioning opiate receptors, which is why we had success with opiate drugs- if you have the damaged opiate receptors, the Prozac, Zoloft and Effexor can't work, and I believe that, because I was on them all. Sure, everyone is different, I agree. My sweeping generalization was an uninformed, ignorant thing to assume, that 'my' case would apply to all others, but I thought, surely, to some others.
I'm surprised that you, a therapist, would say there is no such thing as 'low grade clinical depression' when I was told I have it, that I have likely had it since I was 8 years old, that there is no cure, but the opiate drugs were found to be of use in managing depression in many patients who'd had no success with the standard route of anti-depressants because of damaged opiate receptors. I'm surprised, but not angry or even saying you're incorrect. Maybe my doctor was 'talking down' to me and purposely didn't use 'Dysthymia' --but from your description, it's either that, or the 'mild' form of clinical depression that I have, for which she says there is no cure.
It'd be so 'like her' to say 'low grade' instead of 'mild'.
For almost 10 years, she's written me multiple prescriptions, and invariably, on 1 or 2 of them, she'll properly spell my name, and on the other 1 or 2 scripts, she misspells my first name, Nikolaj, which isn't that hard to spell. I think she has some ADD, herself. In my early years going to her, it wasn't unusual for me to have to return to her office when the pharmacist would note she hadn't included her DEA number on the top of the prescription, or had a cross-out on a controlled substance, which is not allowed, and she had to have known. She's 58 years old.
So, there have been bumps along the way, and red flags for sure, though the past 5 to 7 years have gone smoothly until about a week or so ago.
I'd like to hear more from you, whenever you have time, but don't expect free medical advice, and I do have resources, thankfully. So, whatever you decide or don't is kewl, I know you come from a good place.
My dad swears that it is time I change doctors, and with the reaction I had from the Suboxone, I am considering it, because I think I would have died- the next day- if I'd taken it again, and she wanted me to continue, and I found strength I should have known I had, and listened to myself and the 2 pharmacists good enough to tell me the truth, that the real danger was in continuing the drug, especially with my severe, violently ill physical reaction to it ("that just means it's working", my doctor told me) and a psychotic reaction I'd never before had with any medication.
This is not a comfortable subject for me to discuss, though I've done ok these past 2 days here, and there are medical forums where I've been helped a lot and that's really where I prefer to get into this. The Lindsay Lohan jail sentence really hit me, though, and the lack of compassion for her generally (not specifically here on The Ledge) got me thinking 'there but for the grace of God go I", but then, I was never an in-demand starlet, and knew when the hell to stay home when I was feeling worst-- or, when, rarely, I was feeling too good.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I like you, and I believe you, Jannie, but that is my diagnosis, 'low grade clinical depression'- it's a term I have heard for almost 9 years, and my doctor, who is an MD with a masters and phD, told me that the 'usual' anti-depressants (such as Prozac) will have absolutely no results when taken by someone with defective opitate receptors, which I imagine can be caused by a number of things, but in my case, was caused by this chronic 'low grade' depression. "It's just how you are and have always been" was part of her explanation, "and there's no cure, and that's why the anti-depressants don't work for you."
From your description, it sounds like that it's possible she meant 'Dysthymia' but didn't use the term with me. She said for certain I had malfunctioning opiate receptors, which is why we had success with opiate drugs- if you have the damaged opiate receptors, the Prozac, Zoloft and Effexor can't work, and I believe that, because I was on them all. Sure, everyone is different, I agree. My sweeping generalization was an uninformed, ignorant thing to assume, that 'my' case would apply to all others, but I thought, surely, to some others.
I'm surprised that you, a therapist, would say there is no such thing as 'low grade clinical depression' when I was told I have it, that I have likely had it since I was 8 years old, that there is no cure, but the opiate drugs were found to be of use in managing depression in many patients who'd had no success with the standard route of anti-depressants because of damaged opiate receptors. I'm surprised, but not angry or even saying you're incorrect. Maybe my doctor was 'talking down' to me and purposely didn't use 'Dysthymia' --but from your description, it's either that, or the 'mild' form of clinical depression that I have, for which she says there is no cure.
It'd be so 'like her' to say 'low grade' instead of 'mild'.
For almost 10 years, she's written me multiple prescriptions, and invariably, on 1 or 2 of them, she'll properly spell my name, and on the other 1 or 2 scripts, she misspells my first name, Nikolaj, which isn't that hard to spell. I think she has some ADD, herself. In my early years going to her, it wasn't unusual for me to have to return to her office when the pharmacist would note she hadn't included her DEA number on the top of the prescription, or had a cross-out on a controlled substance, which is not allowed, and she had to have known. She's 58 years old.
So, there have been bumps along the way, and red flags for sure, though the past 5 to 7 years have gone smoothly until about a week or so ago.
I'd like to hear more from you, whenever you have time, but don't expect free medical advice, and I do have resources, thankfully. So, whatever you decide or don't is kewl, I know you come from a good place.
My dad swears that it is time I change doctors, and with the reaction I had from the Suboxone, I am considering it, because I think I would have died- the next day- if I'd taken it again, and she wanted me to continue, and I found strength I should have known I had, and listened to myself and the 2 pharmacists good enough to tell me the truth, that the real danger was in continuing the drug, especially with my severe, violently ill physical reaction to it ("that just means it's working", my doctor told me) and a psychotic reaction I'd never before had with any medication.
This is not a comfortable subject for me to discuss, though I've done ok these past 2 days here, and there are medical forums where I've been helped a lot and that's really where I prefer to get into this. The Lindsay Lohan jail sentence really hit me, though, and the lack of compassion for her generally (not specifically here on The Ledge) got me thinking 'there but for the grace of God go I", but then, I was never an in-demand starlet, and knew when the hell to stay home when I was feeling worst-- or, when, rarely, I was feeling too good.

What I meant was, there is no such thing as a clinical diagnosis of "low grade clinical depression." The phrase itself is not accurate but I could see how a provider may describe it that way. I tend to be very blunt and open with clients and tell them as much as they want to know about their diagnosis. so, if I had a client with Dysthymia, I would say the world "Dysthymia" and then explain what that meant. Your defective opiate receptors and your depression are two different issues. I work with many clients who are either recovering from addiction or struggling with Dysthymia (or both) and are doing wonderfully on a combo of anti-depressants and therapy.

I don't want to contradict your physician, but the statement, "It's just how you are and have always been" was part of her explanation, "and there's no cure, and that's why the anti-depressants don't work for you." makes me uncomfortable. I have never heard a peer make this type of statement. What is that telling you? That you are doomed to a life of mild depression and because you damaged your opiate receptors by abusing drugs, you're doomed to a joyless life? I simply do not agree with that. There *are* clients with very severe and recurrent depression who do not seem to respond to medication. I am working with a client like that now. She is considering ECT at the suggestion of her physician. That does happen.

I am not a substance abuse "expert" but it is my understanding that opiate receptors don't become damaged, but rather depleted. Over time, you will "heal" and begin to feel pleasure again, but it is a slow process.

I'm sharing this publicly right now, rather than via PM because I wanted to clear up a misconception. Feel free to PM me if you want to have a private discussion.