Meat-Eating Debate (Relocated Thread)

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by chiliD

And, you're saying modern man DOES know how to prevent their own extinction? I seriously doubt that...especially if you watch Fox News for more than 10 minutes. We're on a collision course with our own species demise...have been for as long as we've been on Earth. (assuming we came from elsewhere in the Universe) Humans have basically been the "cancer cell" lifeform on this planet. We've grown in population totally unchecked like a malignancy. But, we'll get our due in time...not my lifetime, maybe not even our great-great-great-great grandchildren's, but eventually, humans will not exist on this planet. Gone like a cool breeze.

"Especially if you watch Fox News"

Eventually, nothing will exist on this planet.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by mezzoforte

You're right--these arguments will never be productive. I don't think these sorts of debates will ever change anyone's mind--no diehard meat eater is going to read an internet debate and say "you're right, I will go vegan!" Just as no atheist will ever say, "Thanks for explaining it--the Mormon faith sounds perfect for me!"

And yet....
Most of us have a certain amount of investment in these topics. We define ourselves in part by how we align on these sorts of issues. Heck, I float somewhere in the middle--I've given up seafood for environment reasons, but not meat, and don't particularly begrudge either party. And even I can't stop myself from butting in on these unproductive conversations.

I was intrigued by your opinion on cats, dogs, and whales. I agree with you on cats and dogs--the idea makes me a little squeamish (no way could I eat a cat), but I agree that it's unfair for meat-eaters to draw a moral line there. As Americans and Europeans, most of us spent our formative years with Fluffy and Rex, and impose those memories on very different cultures. Basically, unless an animal is endangered or threatened (or highly intelligent--sentience has meaning IMO), I think it's unfair for meat-eaters to get too judge-y.

But whales? Are they really in the same category? I realize most whaling is carried out by indigenous communities and it may not be fair of us to imposeon their cultural traditions, but I definitely have a problem with hunting threatened species of whales. I'm less sure about non-endangered species--for me, the question with any kind of fishing comes down to the method they use and how destructive it is to other marine life. But I honestly don't know much about commercial whaling, and am very open to being educated...

Whales are almost extinct? The Blue Whale, the largest creature on the planet has been on the endangered species list for years.

[mezzoforte]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Whales are almost extinct? The Blue Whale, the largest creature on the planet has been on the endangered species list for years.

Believe me, I'm well aware. I don't think there's any debate over killing blue whales.
As I said in my post, mist whaling is carried out by indigenous communities on a subsistence level. They hunt mainly smaller baleen whales like minke whales. Right now, minke whales are considered to be of "least concern.". I don't know how accurate that is, though--often species are mislabeled LC because of insufficient data. With marine mammals, I would guess it's especially hard to ascertain.

Anyway, the morality of whaling by indigenous communities is an interesting debate, but probably not relevant here since it opens the door to some very messy issues. I was merely responding to another posters argument that it isn't fair to judge other cultures for eating whales, cats, and dogs. I think you may have missed my point, Jondolar.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by mezzoforte

Believe me, I'm well aware. I don't think there's any debate over killing blue whales.
As I said in my post, mist whaling is carried out by indigenous communities on a subsistence level. They hunt mainly smaller baleen whales like minke whales. Right now, minke whales are considered to be of "least concern.". I don't know how accurate that is, though--often species are mislabeled LC because of insufficient data. With marine mammals, I would guess it's especially hard to ascertain.

Anyway, the morality of whaling by indigenous communities is an interesting debate, but probably not relevant here since it opens the door to some very messy issues. I was merely responding to another posters argument that it isn't fair to judge other cultures for eating whales, cats, and dogs. I think you may have missed my point, Jondolar.

I get it. I don't blame other cultures for eating animals as long as they are not endangered.

My arguement is that most of the most of the problems we talk about come about from overpopulation but no one wants to talk about putting limits on family size. It's obvious that that is going to have to happen. China had to do it because of population and people tried to put a negative on it by saying they killed baby girls. Well, there are wackos in every community and you can't babysit everyone. People kill children even when there are not limits on population.

[McTrouble]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Apparently humans taste real good too!

Yeah, that Snake & Pygmy Pie goes down real well with cannibals!

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by McTrouble

Yeah, that Snake & Pygmy Pie goes down real well with cannibals!

I think a lot of cannibalism also stems out of religions. Go figure.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Apparently humans taste real good too!

Well, eating bacon is almost like noshing on a three year old human.

A roadblock humans have in deciphering intelligence in animals is that we can't help but assume the smartest ones must resemble us. Clearly, nobody told that to the pig.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by jannieC

Well, eating bacon is almost like noshing on a three year old human.

A roadblock humans have in deciphering intelligence in animals is that we can't help but assume the smartest ones must resemble us. Clearly, nobody told that to the pig.

^^^^And that is where my aversion to meat stems from. Eating something that has greater intelligence than human children is not something I can reconcile.

I will never forget an article from an old National Geographic about tigers being caged and killed for food in Asia, and the madness and despair in the eyes of the big cats as they were carted off. They knew their fate, and it haunts me.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

^^^^And that is where my aversion to meat stems from. Eating something that has greater intelligence than human children is not something I can reconcile.

I will never forget an article from an old National Geographic about tigers being caged and killed for food in Asia, and the madness and despair in the eyes of the big cats as they were carted off. They knew their fate, and it haunts me.

Obviously, I feel the same way. I know that I won't be able to ever eat meat. But truthfully, I know that a non meat diet is not for everyone. I mention the intelligence thing to bring awareness. Animals do not need to be treated with cruelty and disrespect to end up on one's dinner table.

I have to restate what I said earlier:

We use animals for food, clothing, transport, protection, entertainment and companionship. In return, humane treatment is the least we can provide.

(Though hardly anyone is responding to me here. Is it because I am a moderator? I will not ban anyone for disagreeing with me!)

[HomerMcvie]

Even though I eat very little meat now, I'm VERY thankful that the meat processing industry does what it does.

Because if I had to kill them myself, I couldn't do it.

Today, 1/2 a slice of bacon(just the taste, is the reason I'm still eating salad 4-5 days a week, after 18 months), and 4 fish sticks, baked.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Even though I eat very little meat now, I'm VERY thankful that the meat processing industry does what it does.

Because if I had to kill them myself, I couldn't do it.

Today, 1/2 a slice of bacon(just the taste, is the reason I'm still eating salad 4-5 days a week, after 18 months), and 4 fish sticks, baked.

Yes, thank goodness that 80% of the U.S. antibiotics supply gets used by the meat processing industry. Fresh off today's Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurie..._b_830061.html

Reading through the replies, I love how everyone says that the solution to the problem of Big Meat is to buy only farm-raised/grass-fed meat, which is clearly not sustainable for feeding the U.S. population at its current meat-consuming capacity. It's usually some ignorant limousine liberal douche who thinks that the world's problems can all be solved if we pay "a little more" for organic stuff and shop at Whole Foods. The problem is not the means of production as much as it is the U.S. lifestyle, which needs to be changed drastically to avert a looming ecological, economic and medical catastrophe. It's the western diet that demands the intense utilization of land for meat production and all of its environmental consequences. And perhaps it's also time that modern civilization learned a thing or two about empathy, not only for the cute and cuddly dogs and cats, but for all sentient beings. The complete lack of remorse in today's society really sickens me.

/rant

[HomerMcvie]

Wow.

That was a rant!

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by jannieC

Obviously, I feel the same way. I know that I won't be able to ever eat meat. But truthfully, I know that a non meat diet is not for everyone. I mention the intelligence thing to bring awareness. Animals do not need to be treated with cruelty and disrespect to end up on one's dinner table.

I have to restate what I said earlier:

We use animals for food, clothing, transport, protection, entertainment and companionship. In return, humane treatment is the least we can provide.

(Though hardly anyone is responding to me here. Is it because I am a moderator? I will not ban anyone for disagreeing with me!)

I think people are put off by some of the outre comments about overpopulation (which really has nothing to do with the issue of eating meat). And others think it's a hot-button issue that should never be discussed. But I disagree... the decision over eating meat is not an intrinsic factor that we are born with; it is purely choice. And the more informed we are about our choices, the better.

Personally, I do think a non-meat diet would work for everyone. Food is one of the necessities of life. But it can also be an addiction. And the most ubiquitous food choices we have today are invariably the most quickly prepared, made of the cheapest ingredients, have unimaginably long shelf lives/stability, and offer abundant stimuli for the western palette- sweet, oily and salty. Meat and dairy products fit perfectly into that equation. So it is no wonder that there is so much resistance against eating fresh, unprocessed "real" food; it doesn't whop you over the head with stimulation, and people are addicted to this stimulation. But as with any other drug, I think people can be detoxed. And, yes, people can lose their taste for meat. Very quickly too. When I stopped eating meat 23 years ago, within two months I was convinced that I would never eat meat again, and these days I can't even stomach the thought, just from a taste perspective alone. Earlier in my life I had assumed that vegetarians/vegans were all hippie freaks who were malnourished and living a miserable life of self-deprivation and longing. That's so not true at all. In the least. I think the bottom line is that people who claim that eating meat is a necessity, or that they could not survive without meat, should actually test that theory. Not only will they lose their taste for meat, they'll probably feel a lot better physically.

/propaganda

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I think people are put off by some of the outre comments about overpopulation (which really has nothing to do with the issue of eating meat). And others think it's a hot-button issue that should never be discussed. But I disagree... the decision over eating meat is not an intrinsic factor that we are born with; it is purely choice. And the more informed we are about our choices, the better.

Personally, I do think a non-meat diet would work for everyone. Food is one of the necessities of life. But it can also be an addiction. And the most ubiquitous food choices we have today are invariably the most quickly prepared, made of the cheapest ingredients, have unimaginably long shelf lives/stability, and offer abundant stimuli for the western palette- sweet, oily and salty. Meat and dairy products fit perfectly into that equation. So it is no wonder that there is so much resistance against eating fresh, unprocessed "real" food; it doesn't whop you over the head with stimulation, and people are addicted to this stimulation. But as with any other drug, I think people can be detoxed. And, yes, people can lose their taste for meat. Very quickly too. When I stopped eating meat 23 years ago, within two months I was convinced that I would never eat meat again, and these days I can't even stomach the thought, just from a taste perspective alone. Earlier in my life I had assumed that vegetarians/vegans were all hippie freaks who were malnourished and living a miserable life of self-deprivation and longing. That's so not true at all. In the least. I think the bottom line is that people who claim that eating meat is a necessity, or that they could not survive without meat, should actually test that theory. Not only will they lose their taste for meat, they'll probably feel a lot better physically.

/propaganda

I agree with everything you say. I also think most people would be better off doing lots of things. That doesn't mean that everyone has it in their heart to care.

I accidentally ate a bite of regular chicken salad last month and seriously almost vomited. I had no idea that chicken tasted so, chicken-ey!

In response to your first post (rant ), I hope you don't think I am one of those douches. I shop at Earth Fair because it's the only place I can find the types of non-meat foods I love. They also sell "organic" meat which bugs me, because I think it's bull476t too. Why does Earth Fair HAVE to sell meat products? Because they probably wouldn't survive without it. The old me could have written your rant. I think I have gotten old and tired.

It's been over 20 years for me, as well, and I have never looked back. I lost a lot of weight initially, most likely from the shock of eliminating all of that animal fat and grease. Ah, but have since gained it all back, and then some. Don't need meat to be chubby.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by jannieC

Well, eating bacon is almost like noshing on a three year old human.

A roadblock humans have in deciphering intelligence in animals is that we can't help but assume the smartest ones must resemble us. Clearly, nobody told that to the pig.

Yes and actually pigs are very much like dogs. They can be taught to sit on command, etc and love a good ear scratch.