Meat-Eating Debate (Relocated Thread)

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Yes, I think wearing fur is a cruel and barbaric practice. But to be honest, I think the harvesting of animals for food and leather, especially on an industrial scale, is also cruel and barbaric. I don't want to tell people how to live their lives, but I do find it difficult to reconcile killing/eating/wearing some animals (the ugly ones), yet vilifying the wearing of other animals (the cute ones). As far as I'm concerned, welfare for animals is universal, and it doesn't matter whether they are cute/cuddly or not. You either condone animal cruelty or you don't, period. Accordingly, if a person makes the personal decision to eat meat and wear leather, why not wear fur too? I know that's not a popular stance, but at least they're being consistent. What would be especially egregious is if Stevie went around spouting about militant veganism and wearing fur at the same time. But from what we can tell, Mama loves her steak, which is unfortunate (especially given the history of heart disease in her family), but she is a grown woman who can make her own decisions.

I eat meet, but I won't wear fur. To me, it's not a real meal without meat. I think the problem is population when it comes to animal cruelty. There should be a limit on how many kids people can have. One reason why animals are slaughtered so barbraically is because of the demand. Everything is out of balance because of the world population. Resources are dwindling. Animals are just treated like a resource. Kill them quick and make a buck.

Still, humans were mean't to eat meat in my opinion. It's a shame the animals are treated.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I eat meet, but I won't wear fur. To me, it's not a real meal without meat. I think the problem is population when it comes to animal cruelty. There should be a limit on how many kids people can have. One reason why animals are slaughtered so barbraically is because of the demand. Everything is out of balance because of the world population. Resources are dwindling. Animals are just treated like a resource. Kill them quick and make a buck.

Still, humans were mean't to eat meat in my opinion. It's a shame the animals are treated.

No offense, but there are so many contradictions and whoppers in that post that I just can't bring myself to try to point them out without sounding like a pedantic arse (well, any more so than usual).

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

No offense, but there are so many contradictions and whoppers in that post that I just can't bring myself to try to point them out without sounding like a pedantic arse (well, any more so than usual).

I just think that vegans who don't like people eating meat are extremist. What whoppers? Animals are treated cruely out of demand. Chicken farms... blah blah The world is overpopulated. Animals are suffering because of it. However, meat is good. I like it. Fur is an extravagance.

[Pyewacket]

Meat is an extravagance...especially if you agree we weren't meant to eat it (and prehistorically speaking, there was a time when we didn't). We don't need it by any means, it actually does considerable harm to us when we rely on it for every meal and it is environmentally unsound.

Not to get into a vegan/vegetarian/carni-war (everyone here is a grown-up and can make their own choices), but being informed beforehand about those choices can only do us all good.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I just think that vegans who don't like people eating meat are extremist. What whoppers? Animals are treated cruely out of demand. Chicken farms... blah blah The world is overpopulated. Animals are suffering because of it. However, meat is good. I like it. Fur is an extravagance.

I didn't say that all people should be vegans. I just said that people should be consistent in their beliefs and behaviors. And your assertion that animals are treated cruelly because of overpopulation is absurd. There's plenty of grain to go around; unfortunately, a large chunk of it gets diverted towards animal feed. And there is a long-established statistic that it takes something like 22 pounds of plant protein to produce one pound of animal protein. Quite simply, if people decreased or eliminated their reliance on animals for food, there would be more grain to feed the world, less pollution of water (from cattle run-off), less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, less western diseases (heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, etc.), and more aerable land for fruits and vegetables. At the end of the day, demand for animals is set, not by the number of people on the planet, but on the number of people who choose to consume meat. You may think that people were meant to eat meat, but the totality of scientific data would suggest strongly otherwise.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I didn't say that all people should be vegans. I just said that people should be consistent in their beliefs and behaviors. And your assertion that animals are treated cruelly because of overpopulation is absurd. There's plenty of grain to go around; unfortunately, a large chunk of it gets diverted towards animal feed. And there is a long-established statistic that it takes something like 22 pounds of plant protein to produce one pound of animal protein. Quite simply, if people decreased or eliminated their reliance on animals for food, there would be more grain to feed the world, less pollution of water (from cattle run-off), less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, less western diseases (heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, etc.), and more aerable land for fruits and vegetables. At the end of the day, demand for animals is set, not by the number of people on the planet, but on the number of people who choose to consume meat. You may think that people were meant to eat meat, but the totality of scientific data would suggest strongly otherwise.

Overpopluation means more animals are being bread just to be butchered. It also means less room for animals to roam free. The animals that are here are relagated to certain areas. And NO as far as "if people decreased or eliminated their reliance on animals for food, there would be more grain to feed the world, less pollution of water (from cattle run-off), less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere." Not when the human population continues to spiral out of control. The science keeps changing too, depending on which side a person is arguing on. Humans are more abundant on the planet than cattle and take up a lot more space. Animals will keep becoming extinct because of it.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Pyewacket

Meat is an extravagance...especially if you agree we weren't meant to eat it (and prehistorically speaking, there was a time when we didn't). We don't need it by any means, it actually does considerable harm to us when we rely on it for every meal and it is environmentally unsound.

Not to get into a vegan/vegetarian/carni-war (everyone here is a grown-up and can make their own choices), but being informed beforehand about those choices can only do us all good.

We did eat it. Monkeys even eat meat. Surprise! And the sciences that you guys are talking aren't truth. Science is not old. It keeps changing over and over again, especially paleantology and sciences related to Anthrology. My area of specialization in college was Anthropology. New things are discovered all the time and keep changing the so called TRUTHS.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

We did eat it. Monkeys even eat meat. Surprise! And the sciences that you guys are talking aren't truth. Science is not old. It keeps changing over and over again, especially paleantology and sciences related to Anthrology. My area of specialization in college was Anthropology. New things are discovered all the time and keep changing the so called TRUTHS.

Oh, I didn't realize that I was dealing with someone wno knows the TRUTH, science be damned. Many apologies. I think you've pretty much said all there needs to be said right there.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Oh, I didn't realize that I was dealing with someone wno knows the TRUTH, science be damned. Many apologies. I think you've pretty much said all there needs to be said right there.

Well, you skirted the issue. Overpopulation is at the heart of the problem. And who said I know the truths. I don't, but I do know that science is consistently changing, going back and forth between fact and fiction.

[Pyewacket]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

We did eat it. Monkeys even eat meat. Surprise! And the sciences that you guys are talking aren't truth. Science is not old. It keeps changing over and over again, especially paleantology and sciences related to Anthrology. My area of specialization in college was Anthropology. New things are discovered all the time and keep changing the so called TRUTHS.

Some monkeys do eat meat -- but sparingly. The primary source of food for all primates is vegetation. We are the only primate that consumes so much animal matter.

And the "sciences we guys are talking" are truth. You can say that theories change all the time, sure, but you can't just sweep away all facts by saying that and not coming up with a specific study or fact to refute it. That's like saying "atoms aren't real because there may be a study in the future that says they aren't." C'mon.

And yes, the production of meat takes up far more energy and space and has far more environmental repercussions (not to mention health problems) than farming would for the same amount of nutritional food. Surprise! It's true. Again, find me the accredited study that says it's not. And good luck with that.



I do not mean to come across as a vegan hun (largely because I am not vegan -- or even vegetarian -- and last I checked, I am not a hun). I don't even like being preach-y. But facts ARE facts and should be accepted as such. Overpopulation sucks, sure, and there is nothing that can realistically be done to curtail it. However there are simple and fairly easy things we can do to help out with our environment and our health and being less cruel. Not eating meat every time you sit down at a table is one of those things.

[KarmaContestant]

Just wanted to throw something out there regarding the whole meat or no-meat debate. As a side note, I eat meat, but in very small quantites. I'd wager that I eat as much meat in one year as the average American eats in three days, and the bulk of that is on pizza that I didn't order. Americans eat too much meat - it's hardly an essential part of our diets in the quantites in which it is consumed, and should be treated as a luxury item, in my opinion.

Anyway, I recently read the book Eating Animals (a GREAT book by the way, and I'd recommend it to vegans, carnivores and vegetarians). The author made a very good point regarding factory farming and the barbaric methods with which animals are treated in a modern world supposedly so concerned with compassion and the humane treatment of all life forms; I don't rememebr the exact words but basically he said "If you eat chicken, and you recognize the suffering and brutality that this animal endured, and you can live with that sitting on your conscience, so be it. However, if you eat chicken simply because it tastes good, then you are part of the problem."

The 'problem' of course is obesity, mad cow disease, SARS, H1N1 and the incredibly unethical methods used to satisfy America's demand for flesh. Most people would be truly horrified if they knew the truth, if they witnessed the reality behind the shiny, sanitary packaging in the grocery store. In 2000, Americans ate an average of 195 pounds (boneless) of flesh annually - 57 more pounds per person than in 1950, and we eat more meat per capita than any other nation on Earth.

Regarding the topic of fur and leather: on the surface I don't have an issue with the byproducts of the meat industry being used for other materials and goods - it only makes sense that the skin of slaughtered cattle and pigs should be turned into shoes, but ultimately I would prefer that the demand didn't exist in the first place to justify the supply all of that leather. I do wear leather shoes - which may be hypocritical on my part, but it is what it is until an equally sturdy, resilient and affordable alternative becomes available. I have made peace with the issue.

The industrial production of animals exclusively for fur products is repugnant. If you're not going to eat it, there is no justification for killing it unless your survival is called into question, and to the best of my knowledge none of my local grocery stores are selling mink and fox in their meat cases.

http://www.eatinganimals.com/

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Pyewacket

Some monkeys do eat meat -- but sparingly. The primary source of food for all primates is vegetation. We are the only primate that consumes so much animal matter.

And the "sciences we guys are talking" are truth. You can say that theories change all the time, sure, but you can't just sweep away all facts by saying that and not coming up with a specific study or fact to refute it. That's like saying "atoms aren't real because there may be a study in the future that says they aren't." C'mon.

And yes, the production of meat takes up far more energy and space and has far more environmental repercussions (not to mention health problems) than farming would for the same amount of nutritional food. Surprise! It's true. Again, find me the accredited study that says it's not. And good luck with that.

I do not mean to come across as a vegan hun (largely because I am not vegan -- or even vegetarian -- and last I checked, I am not a hun). I don't even like being preach-y. But facts ARE facts and should be accepted as such. Overpopulation sucks, sure, and there is nothing that can realistically be done to curtail it. However there are simple and fairly easy things we can do to help out with our environment and our health and being less cruel. Not eating meat every time you sit down at a table is one of those things.

Thanks for adding a voice of reason to this discussion. But we are dealing with someone who probably believes in Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. There's no such thing as global warming. Animals were put on earth by God to be consumed. Science is part of the liberal propaganda machine, etc. I see the warning signs and I'm staying clear!

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Pyewacket

Some monkeys do eat meat -- but sparingly. The primary source of food for all primates is vegetation. We are the only primate that consumes so much animal matter.

And the "sciences we guys are talking" are truth. You can say that theories change all the time, sure, but you can't just sweep away all facts by saying that and not coming up with a specific study or fact to refute it. That's like saying "atoms aren't real because there may be a study in the future that says they aren't." C'mon.

And yes, the production of meat takes up far more energy and space and has far more environmental repercussions (not to mention health problems) than farming would for the same amount of nutritional food. Surprise! It's true. Again, find me the accredited study that says it's not. And good luck with that.



I do not mean to come across as a vegan hun (largely because I am not vegan (or even vegetarian) and I am not a hun. I don't even like being preach-y. But facts ARE facts and should be accepted as such. Overpopulation sucks, sure, and there is nothing that can realistically be done to curtail it. However there are simple and fairly easy things we can do to help out with our environment and our health and being less cruel. Not eating meat every time you sit down at a table is one of those things.

No they are not truth. New techniques are developed regulary to evaluate how we lived thousands of years ago. Hell, scientist still go back and forth on Neanderthal man, who basically only ate meat. They are still debating whether or not Neanderthal man actually cross bread with modern humans and is part of our dna. New studies say no. But it's still up in the air. It could change next month. Man only really started to populate the planet when agriculture was developed. Population was not much of an issue, neither was war, which is what happens when people compete for resources.

As far as the data used for the arguement for eating less meat, that can be applied to overpoplulation too. And we can do something about that. As far as Heart Disease, Cancer... Good. I'm glad they are here. (Checks and balances.) If there were no diseases then we would really be screwed. There are 7 BILLION people on this planet. That is way too much. The projection for 2050 is 9 BILLION. If you think animals are being treated cruelly now, wait till they are gone.

[Pyewacket]

^Beautifully put, KarmaContestant.

I believe many of us simply don't want to know the facts because they are essentially an inconvenient truth and sausage on a pizza tastes so damn good. And there are those who hunt and those who ranch and have become very desensitized to the killing of animals for money or product. That is unfortunate to say the least.

Here's a guy, with whom I essentially disagree about the consumption of meat, but who makes some really good points on respect and reverence and simply facing the truth about where that nicely packaged ground comes from. This man went in to butcher a cow. And he still eats meat now, but...less of it. And is mindful of where it came from.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Thanks for adding a voice of reason to this discussion. But we are dealing with someone who probably believes in Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. There's no such thing as global warming. Animals were put on earth by God to be consumed. Science is part of the liberal propaganda machine, etc. I see the warning signs and I'm staying clear!

Don't insult me. Did you not read my posts? And you are not a voice of reason at all, and never have been.