DISCUSSION: Danny's songs from Kiln House

[chiliD]

"Tell Me All The Things You Do" 's end sounds like Danny trying to recreate the "Madges"; has a similar feel.

Getting a bit ahead here, I liked how on at least ONE of the Bare Trees tour shows, they opened the show with Danny's opening wah-wah blast from "Danny's Chant" directly into "Tell Me....". Killer opening!

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I was speaking strictly from a musical standpoint. Just because Jimmy McCulloch had a smack problem doesn't mean Danny would have, too. Being that he was having to FRONT Fleetwood Mac magnified his insecurities (that and having the "I'm a white man who SHOULDN'T be playing the black man's blues" syndrome). Being a sideman in Wings where the spotlight would rarely be on him, and playing POP music rather than "the blooze" probably would've HELPED his situation rather than been his downfall.

I'd agree with that - Danny was never born to be a frontman. The pressure of carrying the band musically certainly exacerbated his problems, though I don't think he would necessarily have developed a smack problem. If he was likely to, he'd have done it by then. Had he joined Wings, or Wishbone Ash or someone like that, he could have stayed quietly out of the limelight and carried on contributing his songs and ideas, without them being the "only" songs and ideas. Someone would have had to help him with his stagefright though, and I'm not sure Macca would have had the patience for that.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I'd agree with that - Danny was never born to be a frontman. The pressure of carrying the band musically certainly exacerbated his problems, though I don't think he would necessarily have developed a smack problem. If he was likely to, he'd have done it by then. Had he joined Wings, or Wishbone Ash or someone like that, he could have stayed quietly out of the limelight and carried on contributing his songs and ideas, without them being the "only" songs and ideas. Someone would have had to help him with his stagefright though, and I'm not sure Macca would have had the patience for that.

Considering Danny's lyrical shortcomings, who better to help finish off his basic song ideas than Paul?

Speaking of Wishbone Ash, I've always thought that original lead singer/bassist Martin Turner's voice sounded very similar to Danny's...even some of their early songs instrumentally sound strikingly like Kiln House era FMac.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I was speaking strictly from a musical standpoint. Just because Jimmy McCulloch had a smack problem doesn't mean Danny would have, too. Being that he was having to FRONT Fleetwood Mac magnified his insecurities (that and having the "I'm a white man who SHOULDN'T be playing the black man's blues" syndrome). Being a sideman in Wings where the spotlight would rarely be on him, and playing POP music rather than "the blooze" probably would've HELPED his situation rather than been his downfall.

As far as the Stones are concerned, everytime they've been on a guitarist search, they recruit EVERYBODY (Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Rory Gallagher, Steve Cropper, Wayne Perkins, etc; anyone with the slightest bit of "a name", they recruit), so I don't take much stock in their "recruiting Danny". I compare it to baseball fans talking hypothetical player trades..."Oh, it'd be great if the (enter favorite team here) got Ryan Howard." I could see that maybe some journalist was in the room when Keith hypothetically asked Mick, "Hey, what about Danny Kirwan?". I think that's about as far as it went.

A fair counter-argument. BTW my favorite team has Ryan Howard. Six games up on the Braves in the N.L. East with nine left to play.

I wasn't there, I never met the man, but from what you can read about him, Danny Kirwan was not an easy person to know or understand. He was socially awkward. This would not translate well either in a band fronted by Paul McCartney, or the Rolling Stones. Kirwan's behavior only became worse the more he became an alcoholic. I know Peter Green used to give him a hard time (ribbing, "busting balls"), but only out of friendship. I don't think Kirwan understood that level of interaction. I also believe Kirwan's behavior had a factor in Green's premature departure. From Green's perspective the original four piece band was very tight, then they hire the 18 year old prodigy, but he turns out to be a social misfit. They were great together writing songs, but everything else was too hard to live with.

As dansven points about pouring a beer on Green's head during his substitute tour replacement in early '71, I've read Kirwan threw a beer bottle in Green's direction only to miss. It followed the infamous four hour Fillmore East "Black Magic Woman" marathon. Kirwan was upset because Green decided to take over the band out of the blue without warning, and Kirwan felt lost.

[greenmanastrat]

I love earl grey and all of Dannys Cuts on kiln house. I think without exception they were all an improvement on the songs he´d written up to that point more or less.

Crying shame he was a boy with such a talent, real waste the world didnt get a chance to hear it develop. Rather depressing story really.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Considering Danny's lyrical shortcomings, who better to help finish off his basic song ideas than Paul?

Speaking of Wishbone Ash, I've always thought that original lead singer/bassist Martin Turner's voice sounded very similar to Danny's...even some of their early songs instrumentally sound strikingly like Kiln House era FMac.

If Danny and Paul had got on well personally, it could have worked perfectly. I think Danny reacted better to really creative musicians that he could look up to. And yes, I've always thought that too about Wishbone Ash. You could imagine songs like "Jailbait" and half the stuff from "Argus" being sung by Danny. Likewise the guitar sound. Plus they were nice guys!

Originally Posted by slipkid

I wasn't there, I never met the man, but from what you can read about him, Danny Kirwan was not an easy person to know or understand. He was socially awkward. This would not translate well either in a band fronted by Paul McCartney, or the Rolling Stones. Kirwan's behavior only became worse the more he became an alcoholic. I know Peter Green used to give him a hard time (ribbing, "busting balls"), but only out of friendship. I don't think Kirwan understood that level of interaction. I also believe Kirwan's behavior had a factor in Green's premature departure. From Green's perspective the original four piece band was very tight, then they hire the 18 year old prodigy, but he turns out to be a social misfit. They were great together writing songs, but everything else was too hard to live with.

As dansven points about pouring a beer on Green's head during his substitute tour replacement in early '71, I've read Kirwan threw a beer bottle in Green's direction only to miss. It followed the infamous four hour Fillmore East "Black Magic Woman" marathon. Kirwan was upset because Green decided to take over the band out of the blue without warning, and Kirwan felt lost.

Certainly Danny was awkward, and getting along with him was no doubt very hard work in almost all cases. But when he joined the band, I think he was a much more easy-going guy. It was only later that he became difficult. I disagree that Kirwan was much of a factor in Green's departure. On a personal level, maybe Danny was hard going at times, but musically he was the only thing that Green had to bounce off. Green was moaning during 1969 that there was no creativity coming from the rest of the band at all, apart from Danny. That's why he was hired. Without someone coming in, Mac would have folded before "Then Play On", or just produced "Mr Wonderful Mk 2". By Peter's own admission, there'd have been no "Albatross". Peter left through reasons beyond musical frustration anyway, hence only one jam album and two singles in the next 7 years; and also through reasons beyond any personal issues with other members.

I wasn't there either, but it's true that Danny threw a beer bottle at Peter during that post-Spencer tour - who knows whether he meant to hit him or not, but miss he did. That situation must have done a lot of damage to Danny, no thanks to anyone else. Peter leaves, and the four-piece are struggling for direction. Jeremy is doing his rock 'n' roll parodies, but (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) was getting pretty disillusioned with them and with the rock star life in general. Mick and John were incapable of contributing any songs, so it's left to Danny to come up with the ideas. Then Chris joins and Jeremy leaves, and Danny is under more pressure - don't forget that Chris isn't writing more than a couple of songs a year at this point. Mick and John were always desperately hoping that Peter would come back - there's an interview after a gig in mid-1970 where John is just incredibly desperate for Peter's return. So when he comes back for the tour in February '71, even though it was temporary and they had to do those ridiculous endless jams, Peter is allowed to run the show. So it's "Danny, Peter's left so you have to write all the songs." Then it's "Oh, Peter's back for a while so forget your songs now, just do what he wants and let's hope he comes back for good." After that tour and Peter had left again, it's "Oh, Danny, where are the new songs?" No wonder he drank a lot. Meanwhile the band didn't seem interested in helping him with his problems - maybe there wasn't a lot of sympathy for him from some members. You might say fair enough, as Danny was a pain - but they were happy to ride on his musical ability all the same, making it fairly clear that they'd rather have Peter. Bob Welch has said that the band was haunted by Peter's absence, and I think Danny suffered from that.

Danny would have done a LOT better had Fleetwood Mac split up in 1970, perhaps taking a year off and then either joining another band or doing his own thing. I think Bob wanted the band to sack Danny much earlier than they did, but obviously Mick (at least) was too afraid to do that. It would have been better for Danny. By Bob's own admission, when Danny was finally sacked, they were incapable of operating as a four-piece (Mick, John, Bob and Chris) at that point, so I wonder what they had thought they were doing? Were they just plodding on, hoping that Danny would get better? Hypothetical point here, but had Mick listened to Bob and sacked Danny in '71, we wouldn't have "Bare Trees", but they'd have hired someone else and carried on as a five-piece. No screwing Walker around and no Bob Weston-Jenny Fleetwood scenario...

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Certainly Danny was awkward, and getting along with him was no doubt very hard work in almost all cases. But when he joined the band, I think he was a much more easy-going guy. It was only later that he became difficult. I disagree that Kirwan was much of a factor in Green's departure. On a personal level, maybe Danny was hard going at times, but musically he was the only thing that Green had to bounce off. Green was moaning during 1969 that there was no creativity coming from the rest of the band at all, apart from Danny. That's why he was hired. Without someone coming in, Mac would have folded before "Then Play On", or just produced "Mr Wonderful Mk 2". By Peter's own admission, there'd have been no "Albatross". Peter left through reasons beyond musical frustration anyway, hence only one jam album and two singles in the next 7 years; and also through reasons beyond any personal issues with other members.

I never questioned Danny's musical input in Fleetwood Mac. Yes, without him the band would've ended before Christine, and the move to the US. Maybe when Green complained to a young Gary Moore in '69 that his band is "driving him crazy", it wasn't about Kirwan, but the lack of input from the others. I think Green didn't like being the leader after a certain point (sometime in 1969). Before Kirwan joined FM, Peter Green was a cocky, confident almost brazen band-leader who knew what he wanted. While other famous bands have that one songwriter that brings it home, and they too had their demons (Ray Davies, Pete Townshend) they were able to keep their bands together at least twenty years. I think Kirwan, and Green were great together as songwriters, but after reading Martin Celmins' 1995 interview with Danny Kirwan, he still held a lot of hostility, and blame in Peter Green's direction.

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Danny would have done a LOT better had Fleetwood Mac split up in 1970, perhaps taking a year off and then either joining another band or doing his own thing. I think Bob wanted the band to sack Danny much earlier than they did, but obviously Mick (at least) was too afraid to do that. It would have been better for Danny. By Bob's own admission, when Danny was finally sacked, they were incapable of operating as a four-piece (Mick, John, Bob and Chris) at that point, so I wonder what they had thought they were doing? Were they just plodding on, hoping that Danny would get better? Hypothetical point here, but had Mick listened to Bob and sacked Danny in '71, we wouldn't have "Bare Trees", but they'd have hired someone else and carried on as a five-piece. No screwing Walker around and no Bob Weston-Jenny Fleetwood scenario...

If Danny leaves FM in 1970, there is no Fleetwood Mac. Possible scenario is hiring Stan Webb, and Christine at the same time. That could've worked. Yet I bet there is no Bob Welch, or the 1975- band.


I'll never understand Peter Green's departure. His last concerts with FM caught on tape rival the best rock concerts ever heard. Fleetwood Mac could've been a HUGE "rock" band on the level of Led Zeppelin/Who/Stones of the early 70's.

[doodyhead]

Perhaps the greatness in Peter that we see now may have been lost if he were to become just another rock star going on endless tours.
(how about 'Forty Years After" opening for the "Dead Birds" )

as luck would have it we are blessed to be able to second guess everything

what if (fill in the blank) did this or that instead

oh' wouldn't it be loverly

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

Perhaps the greatness in Peter that we see now may have been lost if he were to become just another rock star going on endless tours.
(how about 'Forty Years After" opening for the "Dead Birds" )

as luck would have it we are blessed to be able to second guess everything

what if (fill in the blank) did this or that instead

oh' wouldn't it be loverly

I think it bothers me more than when people rattle off bands from that period, or guitarists, Peter Green is barely mentioned (or that era of FM). I want him to get the respect he deserves. To make it worse the band with the same name became an entirely different band, so your success is almost completely obscurred by what took place five years later. I think FM would've had that if Green stayed just another year or two, it didn't have to be decades.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I never questioned Danny's musical input in Fleetwood Mac. Yes, without him the band would've ended before Christine, and the move to the US. Maybe when Green complained to a young Gary Moore in '69 that his band is "driving him crazy", it wasn't about Kirwan, but the lack of input from the others. I think Green didn't like being the leader after a certain point (sometime in 1969). Before Kirwan joined FM, Peter Green was a cocky, confident almost brazen band-leader who knew what he wanted. While other famous bands have that one songwriter that brings it home, and they too had their demons (Ray Davies, Pete Townshend) they were able to keep their bands together at least twenty years. I think Kirwan, and Green were great together as songwriters, but after reading Martin Celmins' 1995 interview with Danny Kirwan, he still held a lot of hostility, and blame in Peter Green's direction.

No, I know you weren't questioning him musically. I'd agree with all you've said there. I don't think Danny and Peter actually wrote songs together much though. Often it was one of them helping to finish off a song that the other was struggling with, maybe just with a solo, as Peter contributed to "World in Harmony". "Like Crying" was more of a joint effort, I think. As for who Danny may or not blame, it's impossible to tell, as he has tended to throw blame around in all kinds of directions, including blaming himself. He's not terribly coherent in interviews anyway, sadly.

Originally Posted by slipkid

If Danny leaves FM in 1970, there is no Fleetwood Mac. Possible scenario is hiring Stan Webb, and Christine at the same time. That could've worked. Yet I bet there is no Bob Welch, or the 1975- band.

It might have worked for a while, but it would have been too blues-based for the '70s. Fashions were moving well away from the blues, even in the UK. Christine hadn't moved into her pop / soft rock phase yet, and Stan Webb was still a bluesman. Mick and John wouldn't have been able to make that switch towards pop-rock that Danny and Bob Welch enabled. I wonder if Christine would have ever made that switch without Bob Welch, actually.

Originally Posted by slipkid

I'll never understand Peter Green's departure. His last concerts with FM caught on tape rival the best rock concerts ever heard. Fleetwood Mac could've been a HUGE "rock" band on the level of Led Zeppelin/Who/Stones of the early 70's.

I don't know that anyone will ever understand Peter's departure. I assume that he understands it himself, but I don't know..

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I think it bothers me more than when people rattle off bands from that period, or guitarists, Peter Green is barely mentioned (or that era of FM). I want him to get the respect he deserves. To make it worse the band with the same name became an entirely different band, so your success is almost completely obscurred by what took place five years later. I think FM would've had that if Green stayed just another year or two, it didn't have to be decades.

what i do is bring it up when they start that