The Just Thought I'd Share Thread

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by jannieC

What bugs me is when someone passes a judgment (either in an obvious way or a subtle way) and then doesn't acknowlege or own up to their feelings.

But to comment on Anne Wilson's unflattering wardrobe choice felt catty and mean spirited to me, hence my responses.

Taking a break from playing guitar.....

JannieC are you slapping me in the face again?
Catty, mean spirited..........ouch.

If you really knew me, I know you wouldn't think that way about me.
And I do stand by my statements, though if you could read my mind
they aren't as mean as maybe they read.

My apology to Buttercookie (and to Zombie?) was because I care what
they think. Not to mention you Jannie. The clothes statement might have
seemed harsh, and maybe I should have used better words. But there is
truth to what I said. All that said, it wouldn't hurt if I lost 10 to 15 lbs.

Oh well, back to guitar playing. Maybe Heart needs a lead guitarist for the
new tour?

Watch my back Carrie.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by jannieC

You know, because of the field I am in, I do work with extremely NON-judgmental and empathetic people. Of course, that's a good thing, but it also contributes to my idea that most everyone either is or should be that way too. I know that I have to work really hard at it because of what I do, and I shouldn't sound holier-than-thou because I do have my own biases. So, you're right- everyone has some level of judgment-passing (I'm hurrying- at work-can't think of better words right now). What bugs me is when someone passes a judgment (either in an obvious way or a subtle way) and then doesn't acknowlege or own up to their feelings. All that being said, this is a Fleetwood Mac fan message board and not a place to wax poetic on empathy, diversity, and so on.

For what it's worth, I do believe one can be a supportive friend and still be able to SAY, "you know you seem to be awfully unhappy about your weight and I notice you sure do eat a lot..." or some variation of that. I don't think that we should tippy toe around people. But to comment on Anne Wilson's unflattering wardrobe choice felt catty and mean spirited to me, hence my responses.

is it possible to be a shrink without having your own values inform your work? that's an honest question, i'm not picking on you. i think about this a lot, and i really don't think it's possible to be nonjudgmental. it's possible to be a nonasshole, but i equate being nonjudgmetal with being overly permissive; if you don't pass any judgment on someone's behavior, doesn't that give them a free pass to do whatever? even if, instead of drawing the line between good behavior and bad behavior, you draw it between healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior, that's still a judgment call. so is the expectation that shrinks be nonjudgmental valid?

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Taking a break from playing guitar.....

JannieC are you slapping me in the face again?
Catty, mean spirited..........ouch.

If you really knew me, I know you wouldn't think that way about me.
And I do stand by my statements, though if you could read my mind
they aren't as mean as maybe they read.

My apology to Buttercookie (and to Zombie?) was because I care what
they think. Not to mention you Jannie. The clothes statement might have
seemed harsh, and maybe I should have used better words. But there is
truth to what I said. All that said, it wouldn't hurt if I lost 10 to 15 lbs.

so you're saying you're mean AND fat. got it.

hahahahaha.

Oh well, back to guitar playing. Maybe Heart needs a lead guitarist for the
new tour?

Watch my back Carrie.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by carrie721

so you're saying you're mean AND fat. got it.

hahahahaha.

Yes, sometimes both.
I did eat six tacos yesterday.

Some say I was born with a heart
two sizes too small.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

I did notice most of the posts were from "skinny" people.

Hi, everybody! I'm Zombie and I'm a fatass! When I make comments about fat shaming, and why certain comments working from a thin perspective are offensive and suchlike, I am speaking as a fatass thoroughly familiar with the process of carting a fat ass around on a day to day basis.

< anecdata >
3 years ago or more, I was twice the size I am now. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia and a few other health-related problems, and after being on several medications that were supposed to help that, I got even fatter. And it didn't actually help. So...I changed tactics and lost about 80 pounds. It was hard work, and though I live with a constant low level of pain all day, every day, I do feel much better now.

But I'm still not thin. I'll never be thin, even if I lost another 80 pounds. I have wide hips and big tits and that's just the way it goes. But f*ck you, I look good. And I looked good when I was twice this size, too. Because I like me. I'm awesome.

And no, I am not healthy - but it's not to do with my weight. I can't cure FMS. I'll have that forever. While I found that reducing the size of my ass took a lot of pressure off of my joints and muscles and did help me feel better, even if I lost another 80 pounds, I'm still gonna hurt. < / anecdata >

Originally Posted by carrie721

as far as the fat-shaming conversation goes ... i do feel that at a certain point, if you are a friend of a fat person who complains about his/her weight but does nothing about it, you have permission to say STFU and step away from the cheeseburger. and i say that as a fat person who has had a friend say STFU, step away from the cheeseburger, and get your fat ass on your bike. or in the pool. or out for a jog. i have no problem with this because at the end of the day, even if i do have a food-related pathology (never been diagnosed, but pringles disorder is a thing, right?), i recognize and accept the cause and effect relationship between overeating/sedentariness (not a word!) and being faaaaaat.

zombie - you are right that nobody who's fat is unaware of their fatness, but sometimes it does take a friend to point out contradictory behavior, such as continuing to overeat while complaining about being overweight. in my mind, that is the definition of a good friend - someone who is willing and strong enough to put the warm fuzzies aside for a moment and knock you upside the head with the cold, hard truth.

If you have a friend that complains constantly but doesn't actually do anything about it, then yeah - by all means, say something. I said that before.

But the comments aren't necessary when someone isn't complaining or asking for help or whatever - then it's just saying stuff to say it, and quite often, the motivations behind saying that stuff are not so pure. I'm pretty positive that no one here would ever even think of telling an overweight complete stranger in line at the Starbucks that a gallon sized mochacino frappalatte or whatever-the-f*ck-I-don't-go-to-Starbucks-and-it-shows might not be a healthy choice, but commenting on a celebrity's weight in a disparaging manner is sort of like that - we don't know Ann Wilson, we don't know 90s Stevie, etc.

Of course, the random stranger thing DOES happen, and quite a lot. Clicky links for just three examples.

And Marissa put it very well when she addressed the "I'm just concerned for your health" line, so I won't repeat that.

Originally Posted by carrie721

somewhere along the way, "overweight" became a new untouchable minority in our culture, as if someone is simply born fat, just as someone is born black or born gay. of course there is a vast spectrum of body types - i could lose 60 pounds, but i'd still be a short, broad-shouldered broad, whereas my brother is a foot taller and has to work to put on weight - but by and large, having a BMI in the obese range is a choice. again, i am not speaking from a lofty, skinny-bitch perch. i have a BMI of 36. i have struggled with my weight since a kid named jason fitzgerald first called me fat in 4th grade (funnily enough, i was not fat then, but i am now). however, i now exercise every day. i have to think about everything i eat because i was not taught healthy eating habits growing up. i know firsthand that the damage of eating disorders is deep, and quitting overeating is different from, say, quitting smoking because we need to eat to survive. so a person with an eating disorder faces his/her demon multiple times a day. i get that. but i do not think that it is an insurmountable obstacle for most people, nor do i think that treating it as such is beneficial to anyone.

JTIS.

When we talk like this, we are working from the position that having that BMI* is OMG AWFUL. As long as someone is comfortable, healthy and happy at whatever weight they are, it shouldn't matter. That is my point with the fat shaming conversation.

Jason Fitzgerald fat shamed you for no reason, and you still carry that with you. Kids in school fat shamed me for no reason, and I still carry that. Even if we WERE fat back then, it would still be for no reason, because it's wrong.

I was not comfortable at my higher weight, so I lost it. Someone else may be comfortable at that weight, though, and they don't need to lose it. Just because something isn't always insurmountable doesn't mean it's still always necessary.

Yes, some fat people are fat because they eat too much. Some people are fat because they have thyroid issues. Some people are fat because they don't exercise. Some people are fat because they're fat. It happens. It's not up to the hoi polloi to pass judgment on that unless that judgment is asked for, as in, "I hate wearing this size 20, I wish I could lose weight" - "Okay, then STFU and put down the cheeseburger."

*I am not going to get into why the BMI thing is actually incredibly damaging and mostly bogus unless someone is curious, so I'm putting this down here as a disclaimer - I reference the BMI because Carrie used it and I am trying to make my responses relate as well as possible to what others are saying. I do not think that the BMI system as it currently stands is an accurate or useful system in any way.

Originally Posted by carrie721

you're wrong and i hate you!



you're right, in many ways fat people are a free for all. i was thinking specifically and speaking generally. i don't know heat magazine, but i assume it's a gossip mag? in that case, there really isn't much that's off limits for those rags, tho i know what you mean. however, many people do treat it as an untouchable topic -- just see the comments in this thread -- and i don't think that's helpful for anybody.

on the topic of obesity, the atlantic had an interesting article on it a couple months ago:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-obesity/8017/

i don't agree with everything he has to say, but it's still an interesting look at the issue from someone who has firsthand experience with it.

It's not an untouchable subject. I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss weight issues. In fact, I'm saying the opposite, since I'm here discussing weight issues. I'm saying that when we discuss these things, we need to examine our motives for our reactions and put a little more thought into what we say before we say it - that way, our discussions can be a little more productive.

But yeah - fat people are definitely one of the last acceptable groups to bash, no matter what venue we're speaking about - gossip mag or 'net forum or conversation at the dinner table or evening news (count how many headless fatties you see on the next OMG OBESITY CRISIS news report), and that's why I think it's important to have conversations like this, because these ideas get ingrained early and they cause pain when they shouldn't have to.

If I might proffer a few links which may be of interest, here are some sites that I frequent that deal with body positivity, fat acceptance, and the Health at Every Size movement. I do not always agree with EVERYTHING said on these sites, but they do offer interesting food for thought (ha - reference joke!)

www.fatshionista.com
www.bfdblog.com
www.kateharding.net
www.the-f-word.org

And a series of Fat Rant videos from the stunning & talented Joy Nash:

A Fat Rant
Fat Rant 2: Confessions of the Compulsive
Fat Rant 3: Staircase Wit

I'm not saying everyone should be fat or everyone should be thin. Everyone should do what is right for them. And if the sight of my fat ass offends anyone too mightily, then don't look at it.

And oddly enough and as an aside, I learned much more about learning to love myself and how I look from my size 00 little sister. I also learned that not all thin people are healthy just because they're thin. She's a recovering anorectic and bulimic who now works as a personal trainer and devotes a lot of her energy towards eating disorder activism & body positivity, whether you're a size 00 or a size 28. We look nothing alike, and I often joke that she got all the supermodel in the family, but while she IS very thin, she's no longer an unhealthy thin. She rocks & she's one of my heroes.

But don't tell her I said that because while we may look nothing alike, we've got very similar personalities and she'd be tempted to punch me in the neck for being so mushy.

[HomerMcvie]

I think it's healthy, to talk about your weight.

Me, I've been 30 lbs overweight, pretty much my entire life. I'm 5'10". Gradually, I'd grown to 215, three years ago. People always thought of me as a big, strong guy, but I always knew I had a small frame. Well, three years ago, I was at my aunt's house, for dinner. Never one to mince words, she just up and told me that I was getting way too fat.

Well, I heeded her advice, and lost about 30 lbs. A nice start, but I stopped at the 30. Cut to last fall, and I had sort of an epiphany. I decided that I wanted to be in charge of my body, from here on out. I cut out most red meat and bread, and started eating lots of veggies. At least 2-3 liters of water a day.

Well, I'm now 135 lbs. 80 lbs lower than 3 years ago. Wearing 27" jeans! Almost too skinny, but I don't care. I feel like a million bucks now! My cholesterol has dropped 93 points!!!, and my blood pressure 20! My family is worried that I'm too thin now, and on me to gain weight, but I told them the other day, to mind their own business. I have one friend who insists I'm anorexic, but he's obese, so I just take his criticism with a grain of salt. Yeah, he eats Steak and Shake at 4AM, and is probably 350, so who's got the problem here? My skinny friend pointed out, "David, have you noticed that everyone that has a problem with your weight loss, is heavy? Our skinny friends think you look great, but the heavy ones think you have a problem!"

I don't judge others for their weight, either. My weight loss is about ME, and only ME.

[vivfox]

I just finished eating a delicious bowl of Friendly's Coffee Ice Cream! And oh yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, I want moreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[SapphireSister]

I'm skinny and by gawd, I love fat people (I just love all people is my point).

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by carrie721

is it possible to be a shrink without having your own values inform your work? that's an honest question, i'm not picking on you. i think about this a lot, and i really don't think it's possible to be nonjudgmental. it's possible to be a nonasshole, but i equate being nonjudgmetal with being overly permissive; if you don't pass any judgment on someone's behavior, doesn't that give them a free pass to do whatever? even if, instead of drawing the line between good behavior and bad behavior, you draw it between healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior, that's still a judgment call. so is the expectation that shrinks be nonjudgmental valid?

Believe me, my values do play a role in my work and I spend a lot of time examining them on my own and in clinical supervision. I remember writing a lengthy paper in graduate school, alllll about my values; where they originated and how they could impact my work. I don't think you're picking on me, Carrie. We've "known" each other for several years and I'm sure you know by now where my motivation comes from. Being a therapist does not mean that I sit in "non judgment" and give a pardon for ****ty behavior. Believe it or not, I am actually a confrontational therapist; meaning, I have no problem being reality based with my clients.

The term "non judgmental" can hold different meanings for everyone. The expectation for clinicians from the NASW Code of Ethics:

Social workers also should be aware of the impact on ethical decision making of their clients’ and their own personal values and cultural and religious beliefs and practices. They should be aware of any conflicts between personal and professional values and deal with them responsibly.

So, MY responsibility is to make sure that my biases, values, and judgments don't impact the client's treatment.

Is imnotafraid or anyone else on The Ledge bound by this? Of course not. I am not saying that imnotafraid is catty, but I thought that mentioning AW's outfit was mean spirited and I commented on that.

I need to stop commenting about this though, because I am sounding like I am speaking from waaay up on a high horse, and I don't want that. I do much better when I am *speaking*, rather than writing.

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by jannieC

I need to stop commenting about this though, because I am sounding like I am speaking from waaay up on a high horse, and I don't want that. I do much better when I am *speaking*, rather than writing.

You really don't. I mean, that probably doesn't mean much from me because I know I come off pretentious as hell , but seriously, you're just explaining yourself. And well at that

[SteveMacD]

The classic version of Guided by Voices is reuniting!!!

[iamnotafraid]

^^ I agree with Willow JannieC. Keep commenting, just so long as you
agree with everything I say.

Hey....I just fired a shotgun up in the air. But I won't say why.

Now yall leave me alone, it's guitar time.

[GODDESS6]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Taking a break from playing guitar.....

JannieC are you slapping me in the face again?
Catty, mean spirited..........ouch.

If you really knew me, I know you wouldn't think that way about me.
And I do stand by my statements, though if you could read my mind
they aren't as mean as maybe they read.

My apology to Buttercookie (and to Zombie?) was because I care what
they think. Not to mention you Jannie. The clothes statement might have
seemed harsh, and maybe I should have used better words. But there is
truth to what I said. All that said, it wouldn't hurt if I lost 10 to 15 lbs.

Oh well, back to guitar playing. Maybe Heart needs a lead guitarist for the
new tour?

Watch my back Carrie.

sorry, but jannie is far from that~i have always found her to be anything but that~

[BTFLCHLD]

[gretchen]

I'm having a Corona right now!!!...and I so want that delish burrito...

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by GODDESS6

sorry, but jannie is far from that~i have always found her to be anything but that~

I wasn't calling her that, I was thinking she called me that.


And LikeAWillow I can feel both, she should take care of herself for
appearance sake and health. Actually everytime I see Ms. Wilson I
feel some of both. I bet if she took care of herself she'd be happier.
Though all those Behind The Music shows have artist complaining
(as to what I meant in my original post).

This topic has really brought out some strong feelings from many of
you. And I wish I'd been a little more careful how I worded my original
post. But even if it seemed harsh, it was true from my point of view. At
some points in her career, I could have said the same about Stevie. Though
the older someone gets, I think they should get a little more slack.

Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me. I know there are many reasons
for weight gain. But anyone being honest would have to admit some are
just too lazy to do something about it. I have friends that fit in both catagories.
Some can't seem to lose weight no matter what they do. And others have no
will or are just too lazy to do anything about it.

More cake anyone?