what is this i don't even

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by Zombie

She did. Abortions cost a lot more than that, though. And we don't know her situation, either - did she have an actual support system in her family? One that would make it possible to carry the baby to term and then adopt it out or take care of it herself? If she COULD scrape together enough for an abortion, would she actually have been able to get it? Would she know HOW to go about getting it? Etc, etc.

Hell, was she even properly aware of all of her options?

I'm not condoning her actions. Her actions aren't my problem. My problem is with the possible ramifications of this law and what it could mean for MY reproductive rights, as well as those of every other woman in the country.

(not arguing at you, just trying to clarify my position further)

Yeah, I can see it could end up being a witch hunt. I do think there should be some type of consequences for that kind of extreme measure though. How would you handle situations where woman chose to do something like this to terminate later term pregnancy that wouldn't qualify for abortion except for medical conditions?

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by paleshadow

Yeah, I can see it could end up being a witch hunt. I do think there should be some type of consequences for that kind of extreme measure though. How would you handle situations where woman chose to do something like this to terminate later term pregnancy that wouldn't qualify for abortion except for medical conditions?

Honestly, I am not sure there is one big answer that would "solve" that entire problem. There are so many different extenuating circumstances that could lead to someone wanting or needing a late term abortion that wouldn't qualify under the current guidelines.

And when it's someone that young and apparently that desperate, it gets even more troublesome for me, because I know what it's like. I myself am something of an Ambulatory After School Special. I got pregnant with my oldest when I was 17, too, and while abortion was not the right choice for ME, I just don't think I have the right to decide whether or not it's the right choice for anyone else.

Further, I spent much of my childhood in foster care, and I used to counsel younger girls coming through that got pregnant, too. I consider myself lucky because I was in a mental and emotional position to be able to handle my pregnancy and take care of the baby, but so many of those girls just weren't. And so many of those girls, themselves, were the product of a similar situation - and since they were in care, it goes to follow that things didn't work out so well, strictly speaking.

In an ideal world, we'd have comprehensive sex education for all of our kids and equal access to the necessary care and tools that allow people to adequately control their activity, in terms of prevention or solutions in the event of a pregnancy, in whatever way they see as right for them.

In an ideal world, that girl would've somehow had different options available to her, with the ramifications of each of them explained to her, the ability to understand them thoroughly and the ability to make a good (for her) decision based on the information, whether it was adoption, a safe abortion, or raising the child herself.

I imagine that she took the "extreme" measures she did because she just didn't know what else to do, whether she was afraid her parents would find out and she would be punished or she was afraid of losing her boyfriend (major trauma when you're that age, I'm sure we all remember that, lol) or she was afraid of losing her own childhood or what have you.

I imagine that she was just afraid, period. And humans aren't known for always making rational decisions or taking rational actions when they are scared.

But even if she did it because she's a selfish brat with no thought or care for the suffering of others and was just worried about being able to fit into her prom dress, I would still have the same problem with this law.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by Zombie

Honestly, I am not sure there is one big answer that would "solve" that entire problem. There are so many different extenuating circumstances that could lead to someone wanting or needing a late term abortion that wouldn't qualify under the current guidelines.

And when it's someone that young and apparently that desperate, it gets even more troublesome for me, because I know what it's like. I myself am something of an Ambulatory After School Special. I got pregnant with my oldest when I was 17, too, and while abortion was not the right choice for ME, I just don't think I have the right to decide whether or not it's the right choice for anyone else.

Further, I spent much of my childhood in foster care, and I used to counsel younger girls coming through that got pregnant, too. I consider myself lucky because I was in a mental and emotional position to be able to handle my pregnancy and take care of the baby, but so many of those girls just weren't. And so many of those girls, themselves, were the product of a similar situation - and since they were in care, it goes to follow that things didn't work out so well, strictly speaking.

In an ideal world, we'd have comprehensive sex education for all of our kids and equal access to the necessary care and tools that allow people to adequately control their activity, in terms of prevention or solutions in the event of a pregnancy, in whatever way they see as right for them.

In an ideal world, that girl would've somehow had different options available to her, with the ramifications of each of them explained to her, the ability to understand them thoroughly and the ability to make a good (for her) decision based on the information, whether it was adoption, a safe abortion, or raising the child herself.

I imagine that she took the "extreme" measures she did because she just didn't know what else to do, whether she was afraid her parents would find out and she would be punished or she was afraid of losing her boyfriend (major trauma when you're that age, I'm sure we all remember that, lol) or she was afraid of losing her own childhood or what have you.

I imagine that she was just afraid, period. And humans aren't known for always making rational decisions or taking rational actions when they are scared.

But even if she did it because she's a selfish brat with no thought or care for the suffering of others and was just worried about being able to fit into her prom dress, I would still have the same problem with this law.

I definitely agree with much of what you are saying. I live in a more urban area and I know a lot of women who have used abortion as birth control, who have had education and resources available to them. I don't agree with this law as it is, but I think something should be done, but I don't begin presume to know what.

Being a male who is pro choice, I am always a little torn. I know that if I got someone pregnant, even if we used precautions, and she wanted to abort the pregnancy, I would be upset. As a male, we really don't have any say in that. My partner could say "I am not prepared to be a parent. I can't afford to raise a child" and I would not be able to force her to do that, but if the tables were turned and I said the same thing, and she chose to have the baby anyway, I'd still be forced to pay child support. That really has nothing to do with the original topic, but it just got me thinking about it.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by LiamMcConville

My point is - it's an absolute joke that you attempt to legitimize a young woman having herself beaten to kill her unborn baby. She deserves to go to jail.

Regardless of the lacking "easy access to sexual health education, prenatal and reproductive care, this is the result", there is no excuse for her actions.

resident resentful bitch here to call you on your ****.

you're speaking with the arrogance of someone raised in an urban environment and who's also, like, 4. it's very likely you had a more sophisticated understanding of sex at age 10 than she has at 17.

no matter how brutal her methods, i don't see much of a difference between her actions and clinical abortion. more than anything, her behavior reeks of desperation, and that desperation is only going to increase on a large scale now that all women who miscarry in the state of utah are essentially guilty until proven innocent.

whether or not what that girl did is abhorrent/inexcusable/whatever, attempting to draw a legal line between different types of miscarriage is dangerous and essentially renders all prego women subservient to the whims of their uterus. her case is a red herring and an attempt to distract people from the actual threat, which is the legislation itself.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by paleshadow

I definitely agree with much of what you are saying. I live in a more urban area and I know a lot of women who have used abortion as birth control, who have had education and resources available to them. I don't agree with this law as it is, but I think something should be done, but I don't begin presume to know what.

Being a male who is pro choice, I am always a little torn. I know that if I got someone pregnant, even if we used precautions, and she wanted to abort the pregnancy, I would be upset. As a male, we really don't have any say in that. My partner could say "I am not prepared to be a parent. I can't afford to raise a child" and I would not be able to force her to do that, but if the tables were turned and I said the same thing, and she chose to have the baby anyway, I'd still be forced to pay child support. That really has nothing to do with the original topic, but it just got me thinking about it.

I'm not so sure "something should be done" about women using "abortion as birth control." To label it as such and then be able to have something done - whatever that something might be - would end up the same as this miscarriage thing. How do we decide what warrants having something done? Who gets to make that call? What criteria will be used to determine this?

For example, how many abortions would a woman have to have to be considered using it as birth control? Or, if numbers don't matter, will the woman in question have to somehow justify her reasoning behind getting the abortion to other people? All of this strays into the dangerous territory of trying to legislate morality. If the folks overseeing this process decide they don't like her reasoning, well, then she's going to be screwed, right?

I'm pro-choice, too (obviously). For me, abortion was not right when it came to my kiddos. FOR ME. But my reasoning, thought processes, and morals are my own - I refuse to try to make someone else adhere to them. And even though I say right now that abortion is not right FOR ME, I don't know what the future holds. Something could happen that would change my mind, make me need to get one, too.

I've seen a lot of teen pregnancy, from my own to that of my friends. Being a parent is a damn tough row to hoe regardless of your age, but your problems are doubly compounded when you're often not old enough to even drive. I've seen it turn out outstandingly well, such as in the case of my best friend in high school, who got pregnant at 15, and then worked her ass off to take care of her son, and not only finish school but graduate with high honors. She's now manager of a large apartment complex, makes a good living, and has a beautiful family.

I've also seen it turn out appallingly badly, where it resulted in being stuck in a cycle of poverty with very little viable way out at best or in abuse, neglect, desperation and a very grim future at worst.

That said, I do think fathers should have rights, too. I just have no earthly clue how to make that happen, since in the end, women are usually the ones that have to cart the fetus around until it's at least 18. We need a radical shift in how we, as a people, view pregnancy and parenting roles in order for any of this to reach a solution everyone can be okay with.

Originally Posted by carrie721

resident resentful bitch here to call you on your ****.

you're speaking with the arrogance of someone raised in an urban environment and who's also, like, 4. it's very likely you had a more sophisticated understanding of sex at age 10 than she has at 17.

no matter how brutal her methods, i don't see much of a difference between her actions and clinical abortion. more than anything, her behavior reeks of desperation, and that desperation is only going to increase on a large scale now that all women who miscarry in the state of utah are essentially guilty until proven innocent.

whether or not what that girl did is abhorrent/inexcusable/whatever, attempting to draw a legal line between different types of miscarriage is dangerous and essentially renders all prego women subservient to the whims of their uterus. her case is a red herring and an attempt to distract people from the actual threat, which is the legislation itself.

Thank you. You said that better than I was able to. I blame my liberal application of Desk On (Apply Directly to the Forehead!) upon reading that article. Even just throwing the word "abortion" around in this is a red herring - it preys on emotions, because most people have an inevitable kneejerk emotional reaction to the word, whatever their particular position on the subject might be.

This is not about whether or not what the girl did was wrong. It's not even about whether or not abortion is wrong. It's about whether or not a woman might end up accused of murder because her uterus rejected the pregnancy for whatever reason.

[tilthefirefades]

I just think it is simply scary that the government is going to dictate even more that has to do with a woman's body. It's a f*cking stupid thing, to me, that a group of 60 year old white men are making all the decisions for young girls and women all across the country. And this article just makes me so much sadder, because some girls really don't have all the options, trust me I know a few. Nobody likes abortion, or a forced miscarriage(one in the same to me) but just because somebody has one, it doesn't make them some monster. So I think, with abortion and a forced miscarriage being the same thing, someone is working their way to make abortion murder too, and make it illegal soon

Tupac said it best: "Since a man can't make one, he has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one"

[jaycee]

(People may question the relevance of this post, but if you think about it, it should seem appropriate...)
Has anyone noticed that the people so desperately caught up with protecting unborn babies don't care to make a fuss when, say, a gorilla at a zoo is put down because the zoo wants to cut down on expenses and resources? They care so much for human rights, and yet couldn't care less about the rights of other animals...

[bucklind17]

This type of situation just exemplifies how increasingly important it is that young girls, maybe even as young as 9 or 10, be aware of what goes on with their bodies. I am all for children not growing up too fast and I don't think 4th graders should be driven over the head with facts about sex and their bodies, but it should be incorporated into the curriculum, gradually, beginning at a young age so that by the time a girl is 12 and likely phyiscally able to reproduce, she has a clue what is going with her body, what the result of certain actions are and what her options are if that result does not comply with her personal situation. The education of young women is a root of issues like this and it's something that could, in theory, gradually be remedied. Unfortunately, many towns don't have the funding or support to ever do anything like this and I am positive that many parents wouldn't be on board as well.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

I just think it is simply scary that the government is going to dictate even more that has to do with a woman's body.

(snip)

Yeah, making abortion illegal entirely is the end goal here. I mean, that's always the end goal with the OMG! Family! Values! OMG! Brigade.

Originally Posted by jaycee

Has anyone noticed that the people so desperately caught up with protecting unborn babies don't care to make a fuss when, say, a gorilla at a zoo is put down because the zoo wants to cut down on expenses and resources? They care so much for human rights, and yet couldn't care less about the rights of other animals...

In before wank over equating fetuses to gorillas. I didn't evolute from no monkey!

Originally Posted by bucklind17

This type of situation just exemplifies how increasingly important it is that young girls, maybe even as young as 9 or 10, be aware of what goes on with their bodies.

(snip)

I agree. Education is so important. We don't teach girls what happens or what can happen. We don't teach them what they can do if something happens. We just ignore it until something does happen, and then treat them like they're whores or stupid or irresponsible. But how are they to magically know any better? I mean, I know grown women who don't understand how ovulation works, or why it's important to see your doctor for the annual check-up, stuff like that. And we expect young teenagers to just "get it" without anyone telling them what they need to get?

I get so damn frustrated, y'all.

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by bucklind17

This type of situation just exemplifies how increasingly important it is that young girls, maybe even as young as 9 or 10, be aware of what goes on with their bodies. I am all for children not growing up too fast and I don't think 4th graders should be driven over the head with facts about sex and their bodies, but it should be incorporated into the curriculum, gradually, beginning at a young age so that by the time a girl is 12 and likely phyiscally able to reproduce, she has a clue what is going with her body, what the result of certain actions are and what her options are if that result does not comply with her personal situation. The education of young women is a root of issues like this and it's something that could, in theory, gradually be remedied. Unfortunately, many towns don't have the funding or support to ever do anything like this and I am positive that many parents wouldn't be on board as well.

I totally agree with this. Many teens have no idea what can cause a pregnancy. I sometimes go on question/answer sites such as Answerbag or Wikianswers. I have seen teens ask questions such as 'I fingered myself but forgot to wash my hands. Could I get pregnant?' and 'A guy and I were making out. I was dressed but he dripped on my clothes, am I going to get pregnant?' If teens are asking this, it makes me think that a lot of parents aren't telling them the facts and if the parents won't, the schools should.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

I totally agree with this. Many teens have no idea what can cause a pregnancy. I sometimes go on question/answer sites such as Answerbag or Wikianswers. I have seen teens ask questions such as 'I fingered myself but forgot to wash my hands. Could I get pregnant?' and 'A guy and I were making out. I was dressed but he dripped on my clothes, am I going to get pregnant?' If teens are asking this, it makes me think that a lot of parents aren't telling them the facts and if the parents won't, the schools should.

Ay yi yi. Yeah, when I was doing the counseling/mentoring thing with the younger girls, I heard all manner of craziness like that, but when you ask them where they get such ideas, they just stare at you - they don't know. I mean, yes, I got pregnant at a rather young age, but I knew/know exactly how and why that happened.

What's even worse to me, though, is that many of the girls that are pregnant just do NOT understand what is in store for them. A lot of them think it will be fun and games, and life will carry on just as carefree and party-filled as it was before. I would try to explain, "No, no, you just don't get it, listen to me, you need to be aware of what's going to happen once that baby is born," but I don't think I got through all that often.

The one girl I do remember getting through to for sure wasn't even affected by my talk of the actual birth, the endless sleepless nights, the constant need of another small human that can't do for itself, etc. What WAS this barely 15 year old affected by, then, you may wonder?

My freakin' stretch marks.

She was all, "Oh, I know, I know, it won't be that bad," and I got frustrated, and said, "You don't get it. Everything will change. I don't even look the same way I did before the baby."

"You look the same to me."

So I jerked up my shirt and showed her my stomach, and THAT got her attention. "Oh my god!" Yeah, honey. Oh my god. *facepalm*

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by jaycee

(People may question the relevance of this post, but if you think about it, it should seem appropriate...)
Has anyone noticed that the people so desperately caught up with protecting unborn babies don't care to make a fuss when, say, a gorilla at a zoo is put down because the zoo wants to cut down on expenses and resources? They care so much for human rights, and yet couldn't care less about the rights of other animals...

except they don't care about human rights. pro-life is not a human rights stance. unless human rights start at conception and end the moment a baby is expelled from its mother's uterus.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by carrie721

except they don't care about human rights. pro-life is not a human rights stance. unless human rights start at conception and end the moment a baby is expelled from its mother's uterus.

Indeed I have mixed up the terms - "human rights" should read "pro-life". Cheers carrie!

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by Zombie

Ay yi yi. Yeah, when I was doing the counseling/mentoring thing with the younger girls, I heard all manner of craziness like that, but when you ask them where they get such ideas, they just stare at you - they don't know. I mean, yes, I got pregnant at a rather young age, but I knew/know exactly how and why that happened.

What's even worse to me, though, is that many of the girls that are pregnant just do NOT understand what is in store for them. A lot of them think it will be fun and games, and life will carry on just as carefree and party-filled as it was before. I would try to explain, "No, no, you just don't get it, listen to me, you need to be aware of what's going to happen once that baby is born," but I don't think I got through all that often.

The one girl I do remember getting through to for sure wasn't even affected by my talk of the actual birth, the endless sleepless nights, the constant need of another small human that can't do for itself, etc. What WAS this barely 15 year old affected by, then, you may wonder?

My freakin' stretch marks.

She was all, "Oh, I know, I know, it won't be that bad," and I got frustrated, and said, "You don't get it. Everything will change. I don't even look the same way I did before the baby."

"You look the same to me."

So I jerked up my shirt and showed her my stomach, and THAT got her attention. "Oh my god!" Yeah, honey. Oh my god. *facepalm*

It's hard to get a lot of teens to listen when you tell them these things. I think the only way most will is if you have someone their age who has been through it tell them. Even if someone had a baby as a teen, if you are no longer a teen when telling them, it's just like "Well, she doesn't know how it really is."
To anyone I interact with on message boards or whatever that has statements like 'I'm15 year old and ready to have a baby.' I try to get then to understand the point that, once you have a baby, a lot of people treat you like you don't matter anymore and all they focus on is the baby. Your wants/needs cease to matter.'
They have no idea how much preparation and money a baby can take and what kind of problems can arise. I was almost 28 before I had a baby. I was married, had a home, had health insurance that would cover a new baby, had the means to financially afford a child, and my husband and I worked hard to have a substantial amount of money to put in savings, because you never know what could come up. We were as prepared as we could be. Good thing we did that, because our son was born with a lot of health problems and our savings had to be used for getting to the hospital where our son was having surgery (100 miles away) missed work, hospital bills, medicine, doctor visits, etc.
Most of the teens that are pregnant have no money of their own, no insurance of their own, and have made no plans about who will support the child financially or about who will care for their child if they decide to finish school. There was a lot of planning we did before we had a child and we still had issues. These teens act like all you do is give birth to the baby and then life goes back to 'normal'. I wish they would get how their normal is now being fully responsible for a new life.