Stand up for Democracy in the Democratic Party

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

even though I think he is a liar with a cult of personality - a dangerous combination in my book.

Well we do know that Hillary is a paragon of truthfullness..opps gotta run there is some sniper fire I need to duck!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

Well we do know that Hillary is a paragon of truthfullness..opps gotta run there is some sniper fire I need to duck!

I think they all lie. I think Hillary gets treated in a harsher manner than the rest. I mean the press has yet to nail Obama about the lobbyists, etc. He got a free pass when he said they are working for free

Yes, Hillary was mistaken about the sniper fire. Does that mean she would not be an effective President? She made a mistake - big deal. I suppose that voids all the good stuff she's done Sadly, that is what most will judge her by. Rather pathetic to these eyes. In fact, it reminds me of John Kerry and his statements about his ribbons vs. his medals. Finally, though there apparently was not sniper fire that day or perhaps even there - clearly she has been in dangerous places, which was the point, albeit one lost to the lowest comon denominator, which appears to be the masses. But, she is/was stupid for not fact checking.

[gldstwmn]

Gore! Gore! Gore!

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

If people want her to withdraw all troops from Iraq the day she is elected, she will never do that. Nor should she or any other President.

If we're not going to withdraw any time soon (say, the next ten years), why don't we just annex that land & build huge theme casinos, golf courses, coffee houses & water parks? Put a little money into the pockets of all those poverty-stricken folks & they'll be happy for perhaps the first time in their lives. They'll also be better fed, better medicated, better schooled, etc., & they'll all have 401(k) accounts to build their retirement nest-eggs. That's the only surefire way to keep those guys' minds off all the intertribal warfare & centuries-old factionalism. When your wallet is bulging with greenbacks & your kids are busy texting their pals with cell phones & other gadgets, the desire to blow yourself & others up dissipates.

We could turn Iraq into the next Grand Cayman!



(They did it in Dubai.)

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

It is not strong arming the Democratic leaders to want them to vote however they feel like. Nancy Pelosi is the one trying to dictate how the superdelegates vote: to vote for Obama.

Given that Obama is trying to disenfranchise the voters of Florida and Michigan, it is funny that MoveOn.org paints the OTHER side as being against "the people". Florida and Michigan make up almost 10% of the population of the entire country. Will they begin a petition in support of the "regular people" in those two states?

Exactly. Fix that mess in Florida and Michigan.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

Better yet why doesn't Hillary just step down ..she is behind in delegates and her negatives are skyrocketing ..she is coming off as a shrew...

Haha. Girlfriend isn't about to back down, nor should she.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

Or perhaps Speaker Pelosi is just representing her constituents ..San Francisco did go for Obama in the California primary.

My guess is that San Francisco would be for impeachment as well. But Pelosi wouldn't hear of it.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Who more than likely will be the next President. I love how Obama fans automatically assume his 100 point lead is something like a staggering shoe in. It is not. Moreover, he won it without winning Florida and/or Michigan, which Hillary won, albeit in a straw poll. Put it this way, if the table were turned and Obama was down by this tiny amount, would you, as a clear Obama fan, be singing the same song or would you be saying something like Hillary's lead hardly places her automatically in the winner's circle and the super delegates are a great thing?

In the end, the D's better hope and pray that:

1. If Obama wins, that idiot of a preacher that he blindly sticks by because he has to to get the black vote will keep his mouth shut and not alienate anymore voters.

2. The Hillary D's will vote for him instead of not voting or voting for McCain or some other candidate.

Again, I am not a fan of Hillary's, but her record in the Senate demonstrates she can work on both sides of the aisle and can get things done. Obama does not have any history of any groundbreaking legislation and he surrounds himself with lobbyists working or free and allegedly will never ask for payment to the piper - and people believe that, which to me is unbelievable. But, I voted for him in the GA primary and would vote for him for Pres., even though I think he is a liar with a cult of personality - a dangerous combination in my book.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with everything you said.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

You actually believe that

I am way too jaded to believe it. And, I actually do not mind La Pelosi. I just think in this regard she would would be screaming the opposite if Obama was down by 100 or so delegates and two states were blocked by Hillary from having a re vote.

Don't these idiots realize how important Florida and Michigan are to the general election and how pissed off even 1% of the D's are about it, an amount I suggest that could keep the D out in an electoral system in electoral rich states in a close election. Doesn't that strike everyone else as assinine even though Florida and Michigan were idiots for bucking the system and have noone to blame but themselves. Americans are loathe to accept blame ya know.

It's going to be a fun convention. I can't wait to work it.

[SuzeQuze]

Yeah the right will have plenty of ammo to swift boat Barack. What will they use against Clinton? Whitewater? Which was nothing. But it has that connotation of wrongdoing in the minds of righties nevertheless. But as was pointed out, she ain't getting the red vote anyway. Maybe she actually is the more electable candidate. Hmm.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

If we're not going to withdraw any time soon (say, the next ten years), why don't we just annex that land & build huge theme casinos, golf courses, coffee houses & water parks? Put a little money into the pockets of all those poverty-stricken folks & they'll be happy for perhaps the first time in their lives. They'll also be better fed, better medicated, better schooled, etc., & they'll all have 401(k) accounts to build their retirement nest-eggs. That's the only surefire way to keep those guys' minds off all the intertribal warfare & centuries-old factionalism. When your wallet is bulging with greenbacks & your kids are busy texting their pals with cell phones & other gadgets, the desire to blow yourself & others up dissipates.

We could turn Iraq into the next Grand Cayman!



(They did it in Dubai.)

LMAO - I think that was Cheney's idea from the beginning.

Seriously, we cannot be there for ten more years. Imagine if a parent and then a child and then, possibly, a grandchild all fought there over that 15 or so year period And, IMO, no matter what crapola comes out of any of the three candidates mouthes, there is no end in sight until the US finds some way to make the Iraqi's stand up and take control. If we leave before then, the terrorist breeding ground created there after W fukced up the rebuilding will be horrid and the world will suffer.

As for Dubai -- I think the people there are fascinated with the West and the lifestyle there. So, I think the change was welcome mostly with open arms. Stew M. likely knows more about this though - maybe he'll chime in.

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Yeah the right will have plenty of ammo to swift boat Barack. What will they use against Clinton? Whitewater? Which was nothing. But it has that connotation of wrongdoing in the minds of righties nevertheless. But as was pointed out, she ain't getting the red vote anyway. Maybe she actually is the more electable candidate. Hmm.

I agree with Jason that she is more electable. First of all, she won the biggest Democratic states so far. She also won (or is expected to win) big swing-states like Ohio and California. Obama has won more states, but many of them are expected to go Republican in November no matter what anyway. A recent survey (last week, I believe - no, I don't have the source bookmarked, so sue me) - if we accept surveys, of course - says that of Hillary supporters, 29% will flee to McCain if Obama gets the nom, whereas of Obama supporters, 19% will flee to McCain if Hillary gets the nom.

In addition, people have attacked Hillary for fifteen years. I'm not saying every charge against her is unfounded, but she has survived everything so far. I think you learn a lot about a person by how he/she handles stress. (I always think of it like dating someone. You might think your girlfriend is the most wonderful and kindest and strongest person ever, but until you've seen her go through a rough time, you don't really know who she really is.) I think it's a lot easier to be poised and charismatic when things are going right. I just don't think Obama has ever really been tested - the Wright thing just does not compare to the many attacks on Hillary (in length, if not in furor, that is). And who knows what else the Repubs are going to pull aout regarding Obama that they're saving for fall, if it comes to that. I think they've emptied their bag of anti-Hillary scandals already.

Finally, I agree with Jason again (medicate me ) that Obama is very charismatic and has the potential of getting away with a lot. I agree that both candidates lie. For me, a big difference is that Hillary is charismatic enough to sell things, but not so charismatic that she will get away with a whole lot the way Obama might. The press will just watch her a lot more closely. This criticism that Hillary is cold - well, even if I can accept that (in spite of her work in support of veteran's benefits, etc.), I remember how Reagan's warmth helped him get away with a ton of crap he shouldn't have.

BTW, I've been amazed (and, I confess, thankful) by how few political threads are here compared to past election years. Glad everything is staying civil at a time when feelings are running strong and so much seems to be on the line.

- Jake

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

But at the end of the day, for me it's not a question of Hillary vs. Obama. It's about (insert Dem nominee here) vs. McCain. Which Dem is electable? My feeling is that Obama is already unelectable.

Agreed. He will never carry the red states.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

But as was pointed out, she ain't getting the red vote anyway.

Don't underestimate the Bubba factor. A lot of folks still like him - a lot.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Who more than likely will be the next President. I love how Obama fans automatically assume his 100 point lead is something like a staggering shoe in. It is not. Moreover, he won it without winning Florida and/or Michigan, which Hillary won, albeit in a straw poll. Put it this way, if the table were turned and Obama was down by this tiny amount, would you, as a clear Obama fan, be singing the same song or would you be saying something like Hillary's lead hardly places her automatically in the winner's circle and the super delegates are a great thing?

In the end, the D's better hope and pray that:

1. If Obama wins, that idiot of a preacher that he blindly sticks by because he has to to get the black vote will keep his mouth shut and not alienate anymore voters.

2. The Hillary D's will vote for him instead of not voting or voting for McCain or some other candidate.

Again, I am not a fan of Hillary's, but her record in the Senate demonstrates she can work on both sides of the aisle and can get things done. Obama does not have any history of any groundbreaking legislation and he surrounds himself with lobbyists working or free and allegedly will never ask for payment to the piper - and people believe that, which to me is unbelievable. But, I voted for him in the GA primary and would vote for him for Pres., even though I think he is a liar with a cult of personality - a dangerous combination in my book.

Oh my God, I still love you. I am not a fan of Hillary but I did and will vote for her, because I agree with her on most of the issues and I trust she will be the best Commander in Chief. Obama will never get my vote. I know alot of women who feel the same way. The fact he feels it is ok to disenfranchise the millions of voters in Florida and Michigan just shows me he is all talk. "Coming together" also includes excluding 1/10th of the voting population??