male and female identities

[sara1998]

Originally Posted by carrie721

sorry, was that the wrong response? what i meant was f*ck you.

There ya go... that's a little more expected.
What I meant was, I wasn't sure if that post was what you were looking for.
-smartass...

[sara1998]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Oh my God. That was my fifththousanth post.

haha! glad it was a monumental one... mr. Fukc gentile and hard...

[michelle2677]

Originally Posted by carrie721

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

well, what a topic.

i, personally, don't feel that i've ever been held back because of my gender. that may also have something to do with the career path i've chosen. It's predominantly female, so i really didn't have a hard time getting "in". i've never been the "stay at home, have your meals on the table when you get back from work" kinda gal, and i've never dated men who expected that of me. I also learned very quickly and at a young agethat I was going to have to learn to be able to provide for myself. I watched as my mother dated a string of men, and everytime one relationship was over, we were flat broke and didn't have a pot to piss in. Now, I know she did whatever she could to provide for me but I also feel bad for her because she's never made it on her own up until recently (i'm so proud of her for that )

I never wanted to be like that so i made sure i put myself in a position to be able to take care of myself. I'm also very independent I can open my own door, thank-you-very-much. Not that I would get in a tizzy if a guy did it-it's a nice gesture. but usually when the newness wears off of a relationship, i like to get my own doors.

I moved out on my own recently and tried to put together an entertainment center. omg it's horrible. just horrible. one foot isn't screwed in all the way but I did it. My dad asked me "why didn't you call me?". because there is that sense of "i can do it on my own" that I always have to have. i'll also be using power tools later on tonight

I tend to not wear make-up and I usually throw my hair up in a bun. but there's also a very "girly" side to me as well. if I'm going out, I DO like to curl my hair, put make up on and get dressed up. Heels, skirts...it's fun. So i love that about being a woman. You can go from blue jeans/t-shirt to an evening gown and still be the same woman.

god this is getting long

i'd also call myself a feminist, but I'm not a male basher. well...i mean..sometimes they need it all in jest. i had a conversation with my grandmother and it really bothered me. My aunt recently left her husband and since then she's a new person. She wears bright clothing, where before she stayed as plain as she could, not to be noticed. She goes out, talks, socializes, and is full of life, where before, something was holding her back. I'm pretty sure the relationship was abusive, and on top of it, he expected the dinner on the table when he got home and her to cook/clean. I was almost jumping out of my seat for joy. Just at how she did it. (I'm not close to her btw...) she was held down for so long and she crawled out of that relationship, a much stronger person. i told my grandmother i enjoyed it because she wasn't being held down. My grandmother explained how some women LIKE to be held down. some women want men to explain to them how they want it done and tell them when to speak, what to wear, how to act. I can only imagine my grandmother was speaking from experience because i think she needs that affirmation from my grandfather. her job is to be his wife. that is all. to socialize, prepare parties...but other than that, she has no identity and it really makes me sad. i dont' think i could ever be like that. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just hard for me to understand...being the way i am.

omg I'm sorry so long jesus.

[amber]

Originally Posted by carrie721

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex.

Wow, cool I happened on this. It's so rare that interesting non rote questions come up. Also I didn't want to read the other responses, so sorry if I repeat.

Originally Posted by carrie721

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

Nothing, really. It means I have boobs (kinda) and a vjay. I don't really think about it, until I actually compare with some men, or someone asks me, or something. Still even then I only usually could describe what I am, not what a woman is. I mean, how could you speak for all of womanhood, all women? That is absurd. And me being not very traditionally "womanly" in most ways, I really have no connection to those aspects of "womanhood". Not that they aren't valid and regular, I just don't do that very much. And I'm not discounting it, either, because I think anyone that does anything who is a woman is doing something "womanly", no matter what it is. It is womanly because they are a woman and they are doing it. Seems pretty simple. Anyhoot...

Originally Posted by carrie721

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

Pass.

Originally Posted by carrie721

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

I'm always surprised by the expectations because I have little concept of them, but I always do see strongly that they exist, are not fair, and are mostly unreasonable. I try to live up to them, sometimes, but not really. Only as far as my natural stereotypical "feminine wiles" express themselves naturally. Which is not too much. Which is a problem. Which is why I say there are expectations and they are not fair. Cause I have seen it and been surprised. I've all my life wondered why I can't be how I am and it be acceptable. But that could be somewhat boy or girl. It's just worse if it's from a girl, not as acceptable.
Although, to say the other side, lots of times I think people also expect men to be pleasant and acquiescent. Not as much, but it seems like either way the nicer and more acquiescent you are, the better you will have it. I just think people expect/will accept that even more of women than of men. Quite a bit more.

Originally Posted by carrie721

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

I expect myself to have a vag. I see that other people expect things of me that I would never have, but what can I do? Mostly those expectations are "being nice" and "being patient" and "not being impatient" and "flirting, even though it's obvious you are totally lame and I don't like you" or "speaking to you more than one sentence and being nice even though I never, ever, would want to talk to you again and have discerned you are totally lame, at least for me".

Originally Posted by carrie721

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex.

Err...In one sense I don't think about it much because I just be. But in another sense I think about it alot because lots of people don't accept who I be. Which is confusing, since I'm honest. So I'm just very confused about expectations that I never intimated were part of my personality. I don't trick people.
And of course lots of times men are the most offended. I don't know who ever told them they had the right to...think stuff...but the bad part is that I could say things to them that is just regular, like "I don't want to go over there" and they will totally misinterpret everything, and take much offense. So, therefore, they are kinda lame, of course there are exceptions.

But for girls, I'm often frustrated when girls don't just do what they want. Of course I know all the pressures to do...other, or please someone, or something. But I have little tolerance.
That said, I usually like to hang out with chicks more because they (often) have more subtle sense of humor, and sometimes they aren't trying to sleep with me, which is refreshing because then we can just talk about real things that are important, without tension. Granted, lots of my girlfriends have been waiting to sleep w/me...or...like, 3 of them, not all of them...but still it was better and more comfortable.
If you are talking about work and such, I have no doubt that women are mispercieved and underrated. No doubt. It's one of my biggest frustrations. All my life, everyone knew that I was whatever. Smart in school, good at such and such and such tons of stuff.
But now when I am confronted with people who don't know that, I see every time that they misjudge me big time. Not everyone, but most job people. Also some regular people.
No one ever thinks I am as competent, smart, learned, skilled, as fast a learner, etc. as I really am. I had a couple jobs where they did, but mostly I am, I think, judged by some criteria that I don't understand (having no knowledge of roles, and how people should act, and stuff, and being pretty guileless when it comes to that)
and I very much think I am judged differently as a girl. I also think I might be judged differently sometimes as a pretty girl. Although it goes back and forth of who thinks I am a pretty girl. That's my point, I can't be sure. I'm not that pretty, but some people think I am, I suppose. I never have that assumption, but sometimes I get the feeling that people don't believe me and are paying attention to something else. I hesitate strongly to attribute it to looks, cause I'm just regular, but sometimes I think it is about that. Even though I wouldn't think of it, I think other girls do.
That's my weirdest thing about "my sex" is that it seems I hear about so many more devious thoughts from them that I would never have. I feel like a real naife. I always assume that other girls are nice and don't care about lame stuff. People have told me, and I have seen, kinda, that that might not be true. People might be jealous and not well wishing and petty about things that don't matter.
That's the worst thing about my sex I can think of. That's the thing about my sex that I would seek to remove about the perception of us. I thought once upon a time that all was easy and right, and that stuff was just a stereotype, but as a I go along in life, I am sad to find out that girls really do care about **** that isn't that important, and will project and live that shallow wrongness.
When I am "jealous" of someone? It is never with the intent to wish them anything but well. I am glad they are fab. All I think is, like, "oh, they are nice, or in shape, or beautiful, or gracious, or funny, or smart, or witty, or something - or lots of those things - that is why they are attractive and lovely to others.
And I never think of that as something for me to tear down by commenting on something meaningless, or to begrudge them and be mad or standoffish - I only think of that thing as something I could learn, or will never look like so I like the way I look, and basically overall never think anything like that is a competition. My theory is, if I am with the nicest, most beautiful, most clever, most talented people...how can I lose? Aren't those the very people I would love to talk to?
Plus, it's never anyone else's fault what they lack, or don't have, or what they think someone else has. It's only their fault how they react to what they perceive is "better" then they are, and lastly it is their fault that they don't believe what they are is good, and the best they can be. You have to know your strengths, which doesn't mean you can't acknowledge others who have strengths you don't admire. Them having a strengths takes nothing from you. Only you can take things from you. And if you are lucky, you have the chance to learn their strengths, especially when they are so different from your own. Cause you already know your own strengths. These other people offer you a perspective of something you didn't have before. Something that is not innate to you.
And so, you should embrace that. You should learn. Everyone should try to learn without ego. It's hard sometimes, but you just have to remind yourself.

So about my own sex, I try to surround myself with the best examples possible, and I never have expectations about gender roles. It makes me sad when my friends have expectations of that nature that they think they should have to do. But it works out. Like, cook if you want to. If you don't, don't. Do the other thing you are good at. So, you don't like children. Do some other thing! That's what I'm saying is that gender roles are nearly meaningless to me, and only gain meaning when I'm being judged for a quality I never knew I was supposed to have, and can't even see now logically why I should have it.

And praise to my mom and dad, these roles never even entered my consciousness until I hit the other, real world. I guess that makes me ill equipped, but I would never trade it. Both my parents were both. I guess the fact that all girls and boys in all my family did sports and were headstrong, I dunno. No one even ever talked about anything like what girls and boys were supposed to do. Except my dad said he wished the house was clean, and my mom didn't really clean it cause she was busy doing actual important things...art and school...I dunno...

[littlewolf]

I´m very much in same frame of mind as Amber.
I´ve never understood this,"who am i/i don´t know myself" thing.
I´m me with my faults and good sides,that´s all.

Being a man means that i drool after women,if i were gay i wouldn´t do even that.
I don´t expect anything from anybody,be as you will,
whether i like it or not is not important,
it´s your choice,go ahead.

Only thing i´ve wondered is,
are women closer to their children because of pregnancy?
I don´t have kids myself,but visiting my cousins i can spend a whole day with their children.
Until they start to cry that is,then it´s, "it´s your child,i´m off"
I´ve sometimes asked from guys that have children, can they stand the crying and they haven´t given me an answer that would make sense.

And there is one thing that i do envy from women,
it´s their understanding of clothes.
When i go to shop to buy a shirt,i look at it,it´s either yes or no.
If a woman looks at a shirt,it´s either yes,no or most importantly
"it should be more like that or this bit i don´t like"
If i would have that i wouldn´t be down to my last 3 shirts,
Luckily clothes are lasting kind,right now i´m wearing a shirt i bought 9 years ago.
i only buy clothes when it´s absolutely necessary.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by carrie721

i would venture to say this is the crux of womanhood for the majority of women out there. i was talking about this with a friend last night, and whereas manhood, as brandon reflected in his post, is something that must be achieved, womanhood is something that is given to us and must be dealt with.

YES! Spot on! How many times have I told you guys about my annoyance with the assumption that I should want to have kids because I'm female? If I don't, why does that make me cold, or heartless, or less female, or just plain f*cked up?

I think much of it has to do with times changing, because 50 (****, even 20) years ago, that IS how it was. That IS what was the norm, so it was assumed & expected. I guess it's scary that many people still think this way, that it's a woman's job to take care of the household & family FIRST - everything else comes after & is somehow less important.

Originally Posted by sara1998

When I was married, we both shared household responsibilities, but do you know how many women told me how lucky I was to have that?? That really blows mmy mind... And when something happens to a child, and say it was heard on the news, sometimes, the first words out of some mouths are "well, where was the mother when that happened?" What about the father? Are they not as responsible as we are? So, to an extent, no the perceptions are not fair.

Preach it. I'm always like "what do you mean, I'm lucky? That's the way it SHOULD be!"

Originally Posted by shackin'up

being a male: be feminine when she needs you to.

Beside that. Fukc gentile and hard. But never try to win an argument

I'd rather you fukc me Jewish, but whatever....

Originally Posted by amber

Wow, cool I happened on this. It's so rare that interesting non rote questions come up. Also I didn't want to read the other responses, so sorry if I repeat.

In the spirit of this comment, I didn't read yours.


What makes me a woman? It's hard to separate what I think from what society says makes me a woman. Like, is it just the fact that I have boobs & a uterus? OK, then what about transgendered people - if someone feels they are actually a woman, but they have a penis, who am I to say "nope, you're not a woman."

Now for emotional/mental traits. I feel that I am a caring individual, but I don't know if that's because I'm female. I'm also stubborn & strong willed - is that because I'm a woman? No, people would probably say that makes me a bitch.

I like body soaps & lotions & perfumes, I like to dress well & flatter my figure - does this make me "girly?" If I didn't like these things, would I be unfeminine?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for me, sex doesn't have a whole hell of a lot to do with people themselves. We all are way too unique as individuals to make blanket statements about what woman should be/do or vice versa. And I resent that society & the media try to do so. I tend to separate people more into good/bad cool/asshole rather than male/female, or gay/straight, or black/white, or other obvious traits.

[LiamMcConville]

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

I'm only sixteen, so here's what I feel what is expected of a teenaged boy.

Apparently, we're only supposed to want to have sex. Sex, sex, and more sex. And I mean, I'm all for having sex, but for whatever reason, I want to be in love with a girl before I have sex with her. (Mind you, I'm still a virgin. And right about now I know "FRESH MEAT" is running through all your Cougar minds, but contain yourselfs until I'm 18.)

I work at a resturant, and every guy over 19 tells me that I need to find some slut and bang her, just to get it over with. And when I tell them that's not what I want to do, I want to wait and actually loose it to a girl that I'm in love with, I'm automatically a queer.

Also, I'm expected to not care about anything that surrounds me. I'm not supposed to care about what color my bedroom is, I'm not supposed to be in Leadership, I'm not supposed to care about the future. I'm expected to play a sport, dress like an idiot, and love Greenday and the musical stylings of Chris Brown. God forbid I like Fleetwood Mac and Elton John.

I don't think most people around me know how to interperate my mature, charasmatic personality, so most people just assume I'm gay. It gets obnoxious, but I know that one day I'll be most of these people's employeer. So, I'm looking foward to that.


This got kind of ranty, and I'm a little bit apprehensive about posting it...But here goes nothing.

[Stephanie]

This is an excellent topic, and one I have been thinking of for the past year. Prior to this year, I felt pretty gender equal, if that makes sense. I worked as a Doctor and hubby worked as a lawyer, and the incomes were fairly equal. What I didn't realize during that time was that I was doing the lions share of the house keeping because I had time and I didn't mind.

Enter child #1. I dearly love her and would give my life for her, but I had misconceptions about how much the father would help out. It seems that in general she is believed to be MY child to care for rather than OURS in terms of duties. And I am back to work 4 days a week, and was doing the chores still. Just because I am FEMALE.

So I said, this S*** has got to change and I am still working on changing it. Hubby does alot more chores now, and it is getting more equal around here. Don't get me wrong, he takes care of the baby, but just not like I do. For instance, I have done all the night wakings since forever.

So I think gender roles suck, and in this day and age if you both work, then taking care of a child and home should be split.

On the other hand, if anything ever happened to my spouse, or I was left or something, I could support myself and my child without any outside help. I see so many people, especially the nurses in my office, who stay married because they rely on the primary breadwinner for support. My dad taught me to never do that, so I worked hard to be self sufficient.

The great thing about being a woman/mommy is the bond you share with your child. No one can recreate that, it is special.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by LiamMcConville

I want to wait and actually loose it to a girl that I'm in love with.
I'm not supposed to care about what color my bedroom is, I'm not supposed to be in Leadership, I'm not supposed to care about the future.
It gets obnoxious, but I know that one day I'll be most of these people's employeer.

It's lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
The phrase at the end of the first sentence should read with whom I'm in love; ending a sentence with a preposition is grammatically incorrect.
Those commas should either be semicolons or periods.
I believe the word you're looking for in that last sentence is employer.

Unless you plan to pursue a field where proper use of the English language does not matter, please keep in mind that your self-proclaimed maturity and charisma will only get you so far. Being well spoken and well educated is probably more important than those other attributes. Also, keep in mind that so-called charisma can be perceived as cockiness and lead to resentment by those you expect to employ and by those in the position to promote you to such a level.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

It's lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
The phrase at the end of the first sentence should read with whom I'm in love; ending a sentence with a preposition is grammatically incorrect.
Those commas should either be semicolons or periods.
I believe the word you're looking for in that last sentence is employer.

Unless you plan to pursue a field where proper use of the English language doesn't matter, please keep in mind that your self-proclaimed maturity and charisma will only get you so far. Being well spoken and well educated is probably more important than those other attributes. Also keep in mind that so-called charisma can be perceived as cockiness and lead to resentment by those you expect to employ and also by those in the position to promote you to such a level.

"Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put"

Seriously, it may be grammatically incorrect in a strict sense, but it is increasingly accepted as common usage in speech, and in informal circumstances. Which, as I am sure everyone would agree, applies to a message board on the internet. As a language changes, and English is developing constantly, it is important to keep up. Likewise, it is not considered acceptable to contract "does not" to "doesn't" in formal prose, so one has to be consistent with one's application of the rules.

If you wanted to apply strict grammatical rules to every post on this forum, you would be here all day. Why did you pick Liam's post particularly? Was it the self-proclaimed maturity and charisma? I confess that I cannot defend him on that score. Incidentally, your last sentence is crying out for a comma

[Miss Vicky]

Now, to actually answer the questions:

What does "being a woman" mean to you?

As a woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

What expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

In all honesty, I don't really know what being a woman means to me. I think the common perceptions and expectations that society has placed on my gender has caused me to feel somewhat alienated from womanhood. As a result, I'm not sure that I've placed any gender-specific expectations on myself.

Society - while on the surface appears to encourage individuality in girls - I think still expects young women to simply follow the crowd - to obsess over physical beauty, from body size to make up, fashion and hairstyles. We are told to pursue education and employment, yet we're still expected to, at some point, settle down and essentially become some man's brood mare and personal servant.

While I don't bother trying to live up to this standard, I find the reactions of those around me to be really disheartening. I can sense my mother's utter frustration at my refusal to care about what clothing styles, accessories and hairdos are in fashion and also my refusal to wear makeup. As for being some happy homemaker, I don't see myself ever filling that role. The sanctity of marriage has been so corrupted by shotgun weddings, marriages of convenience, gold-digging, rampant adultery and high divorce rates that the whole thing is really just a joke to me. As for children, I no desire to be a mother, which further frustrates my own mother and causes confusion in other people.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Why did you pick Liam's post particularly? Was it the self-proclaimed maturity and charisma? I confess that I cannot defend him on that score. Incidentally, your last sentence is crying out for a comma

I edited. Sorry for the infractions.

As for your question, you hit the nail on the head.

Liam: You're only 16. You might want to actually reach some true level of maturity before you start spouting that kind of self-praise.

[Sarah]

I don't understand how to love someone (romantically, of course) without having sex with them beforehand. It's such an important part of a happy, satisfying relationship. I would be so freakin' disappointed if I fell in love with someone, finally got the chance to bed them, and it sucked. Damn that! No way!

I'm not saying I love based on my lust, I'm just sayin'.

[LiamMcConville]

Miss Vicky, you've changed my life.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

It's lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
The phrase at the end of the first sentence should read with whom I'm in love; ending a sentence with a preposition is grammatically incorrect.
Those commas should either be semicolons or periods.
I believe the word you're looking for in that last sentence is employer.

Unless you plan to pursue a field where proper use of the English language does not matter, please keep in mind that your self-proclaimed maturity and charisma will only get you so far. Being well spoken and well educated is probably more important than those other attributes. Also, keep in mind that so-called charisma can be perceived as cockiness and lead to resentment by those you expect to employ and by those in the position to promote you to such a level.

So says the Veterinary technician.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by LiamMcConville

Miss Vicky, you've changed my life.

Thank you.



So says the Veterinary technician.

I guess I'm getting a taste of the maturity and charisma on which you pride yourself. Well done.