Alec Baldwin - 2007 Father of the Year....NOT!!!

[skcin]

Originally Posted by skcin

I'm sorry that this happened to your son.

I agree Jannie. Irish - if details of your son's abuse (whether it be written or video or whatever) were made public & broadcast repeatedly on every network, would you be OK with that? I don't think that would benefit your son in any way, if anything it may make him embarrassed or angry or depressed. It's one thing to want to get issues out in the open to protect kids, but it's quite another to give specific intimate details to the media to be put on display to the general public.

Originally Posted by irishgrl

1) I didnt post any details, just broad brushstrokes. However, when I went to Sacramento to help sponsor legislation that would eliminate loopholes that protect child molesters, you betcha I explained my reasons. People need to know this stuff happens and do what they can to stop it. Molesters and abusers need to be held accountable and without information being put out there, the same old thing will keep happening, because people's first instinct is to turn away.

2) personally I dont see the comparison between verbal abuse and sexual abuse as being apt. Apples and Oranges. But, in any event, I have the feeling that Ireland will become something of a little hero...."poor girl, look how her dad treats her" kinda thing. Is she suffering because of this?? Highly DOUBT it.

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Paula, are you obtuse? I DID answer that question already. Several pages back. I get the impression you are just trying to needle me and calling it "trying to understand." Whatever. Btw, people come out with tales of sexual abuse all the time, do the Catholic Church's problems ring a bell? Thats just for starters.

OK, I looked back because I thought I missed it, but your reply did not answer my question. So did you deliberately avoid it, or are you too obtuse to figure out what I was asking? As for me needling you, I'm just trying to have a healthy debate. Any time anyone here besides Strand has a good argument, you get all pissy & accuse them of targeting or attacking you.


So. One more time. If you went to a judge or caseworker with a videotape of your son's abuse or an audio recording of your son telling you specifically what had been done to him, and they took it into evidence but you felt that wasn't enough - would you send it to CNN or the local news to be broadcast on television to the general public?


I know people come out with abuse stories all the time, and I'm quite familiar with the Catholic Church's problems - I do watch the news & read the paper. What does that have to do with anything?

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by danax6

"Before anyone passes judgement, may I remind you we are in the Arctic." Fox Mulder

+10

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by danax6

"Before anyone passes judgement, may I remind you we are in the Arctic." Fox Mulder

Le Sigh

Also, I recently reaed where the second X-file movie is hmaking headway, though I'll believe it when I see it.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Le Sigh

Also, I recently reaed where the second X-file movie is hmaking headway, though I'll believe it when I see it.

unfortunately, they've been saying that for 5 years now

gillian anderson was recently interviewed and she bitched about xf. lame.

[BTFLCHLD]

Originally Posted by The Tower

I have never appreciated the Ignore function as much as I do now.

yes, makes for a mighty small thread

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by skcin

OK, I looked back because I thought I missed it, but your reply did not answer my question. So did you deliberately avoid it, or are you too obtuse to figure out what I was asking? As for me needling you, I'm just trying to have a healthy debate. Any time anyone here besides Strand has a good argument, you get all pissy & accuse them of targeting or attacking you.


So. One more time. If you went to a judge or caseworker with a videotape of your son's abuse or an audio recording of your son telling you specifically what had been done to him, and they took it into evidence but you felt that wasn't enough - would you send it to CNN or the local news to be broadcast on television to the general public?


I know people come out with abuse stories all the time, and I'm quite familiar with the Catholic Church's problems - I do watch the news & read the paper. What does that have to do with anything?

yes Paula, I seriously considered going to the Newspaper. I actually contacted ABC at one point when one of the advocacy groups I belong to sent out an email asking for stories from people whose children were not protected by the court system. I never heard back from that person, but it wasnt from lack of trying on MY part. If I had not had the breakthru that turned my case around, believe me, I would have gone to the media if the Courts failed to protect my son. The only thing I was advised to do was wait until after the final Order....sometimes you HAVE to make a stink to make changes.

Im glad you went back and re-read, but apparently you needed to be just a BIT more obnoxious. Hope you're happy now. Oh and the reason Jason and I can debate successfully is that I know he doesnt hate me like you and Carrie and others do. He might tease me, but its not the same as the out and out snark I come in for from you and your cronies. Whatever. My opinions are just as valid as any of yours.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by carrie721

unfortunately, they've been saying that for 5 years now

Yup. Though this time it looks to actually be true. This is Frank Spotnitz's blog:

http://www.biglight.com/blog/2007/04/its-true.html

gillian anderson was recently interviewed and she bitched about xf. lame.

She demanded the article be rectified since the interviewer apparantly took everything out of context.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by danax6

Yup. Though this time it looks to actually be true. This is Frank Spotnitz's blog:

http://www.biglight.com/blog/2007/04/its-true.html

well a script is the first step!

She demanded the article be rectified since the interviewer apparantly took everything out of context.

oh, really? good, because she sounded really ****ing ungrateful & bitchy in that article.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by carrie721

oh, really? good, because she sounded really ****ing ungrateful & bitchy in that article.

She's never hid the fact that the last two seasons were purely done because of contractual agreements she couldn't get out of. (She had to sign on for two extra seasons to get the same amount of money Mr. Duchovny was being paid). And she has always complained about the gruesome working hours and the fact that she was stuck in Vancouver for the first 5 years without anybody warning her beforehand. Other than that, she's never had a bad thing to say about the show and she was excited about a second movie. It's not like they are holding a gun to her head. If she doesn't want to do it, she won't. So that article definitely made a lot of people go 'huh?'.

[irishgrl]

I am posting this here because apparently Alec Baldwin DOES have anger issues and is now on a campaign that would damage the rights of women and children everywhere:

It is particularly troubling that The View - a show with a largely female audience - would air a program that could be so damaging to the safety of women and children.

In addition to his recent tirade berating his daughter, in the past Baldwin has punched a photographer, berated a NYC pedestrian for walking in front of his car, gotten into a shouting match with a NYC police officer the day Cory Litel's plane hit a NYC building and traffic patterns changed, he caused an actress to quit a Broadway show due to his temper after punching a wall because the AC was too low, called for the murder of Congressman Henry Hyde and his entire family on the Conan O'Brien Show.

The "theory" of Parental Alienation that Balwin cites as causing his behavior has been roundly discredited by the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges, by a recent article in the American Bar Association's Children’s Legal Rights Journal, by the National District Attorneys Association’s National Center for Prosecution of Child Abuse, and in a report by the American Psychological Association. See http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/442 for more information.

Abusers do not deserve a platform - and there is never an excuse for abuse. (material quoted from the Stop Family Violence website)

Alec Baldwin is an ASS and I hope Kim prevails for Ireland's sake.

additional note about PAS:

While Gardner's PAS theory placed most of the blame for alienation on vindictive mothers seeking to alienate their children from the father, research by Janet Johnson suggests that violent men are the most likely to engage in alienating behaviors. This type of psychological control of the child can be viewed as an extension of physically abusive and controlling behavior.

see: Johnston, J. (2005). Children of divorce who reject a parent and refuse visitation: Recent research and social policy implications for the alienated child. Family Law Quarterly, 38, 757-776.

[irishgrl]

Further commentary:

Alex Baldwin Doesn't Get It
by Douglas Bower


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Alex Baldwin’s tirade against his minor child needs to be seen for what it is—child abuse. Not only is it child abuse but is also so typical of the mindset and the philosophy that Americans so easily resort to when it comes to taking responsibility for their actions. “It’s not my fault.”

Here is what Baldwin said after calling his little girl a “thoughtless little pig” and threatening to come from New York to Los Angeles to “straighten her out”—a threat to the kid’s safety if ever there was one.

"Although I have been told by numerous people not to worry too much, as all parents lose their patience with their kids, I am most saddened that this was released to the media because of what it does to a child," he wrote. "I'm sorry, as everyone who knows me is aware, for losing my temper with my child. I have been driven to the edge by parental alienation for many years now. You have to go through this to understand. (Although I hope you never do.) I am sorry for what happened. But I am equally sorry that a court order was violated, which had deliberately been put under seal in this case."

1. "Although I have been told by numerous people not to worry too much, as all parents lose their patience with their kids, I am most saddened that this was released to the media because of what it does to a child." – The man is not worried that what he said to his daughter would affect her adversely, only that what he said to her was released to the media. He is not concerned about how his abusiveness might affect the girl but how the release of the recording might affect her. Is this man in his right mind or is this indicative of just how much his character is flawed?

2. "I'm sorry, as everyone who knows me is aware, for losing my temper with my child. I have been driven to the edge by parental alienation for many years now. ”— The man is shifting blame and not taking personal responsibility for his words or actions. He is sorry for losing his temper but blames “parental alienation” as that which drove him to lose his temper. No, Mr. Baldwin, “parental alienation” is your perception of a stimulus provided to you through the circumstances in which you’ve found yourself. Parental alienation, whatever that is supposed to mean, is not some animated, sentient entity capable of doing anything. It hasn’t arms nor legs, a brain to think with, or anything else that would enable “it” to “drive” you to do anything. Your loss of temper is a behavior you chose to deal with a situation. (Since he is referring to someone committing the sin of “parental alienation,” he must certainly be blaming the child as the alienator—it’s the child’s fault for alienating him—“parental alienation” made him do it.)

3. “You have to go through this to understand.”— If ever there was an indication of the lack of critical thinking skills in the minds of Americans, this is it. This is something to which many resort in trying to justify their irrational and ill-chosen behaviors. Think a moment to what this man is actually saying: If you went through what I’ve been going through, then you would not condemn me. And, if you’ve never walked in my shoes, then you do not have the right to criticize me for calling my daughter a little pig.” This man is claiming that the only way we could “understand” why he did what he did is if we had undergone this spookily-termed, “parental alienation.” This man is not apologizing but trying to justify his bad behavior. And, he claims, you would understand why he abused his child if you had undergone his trials and tribulations. I don’t have to have murdered someone to understand why someone resorted to bad behavior by killing his neighbor. I don’t have to have sexually abused a child to know that it is ill-chosen behavior. I don’t have to have stolen something that didn’t belong to me to understand that stealing is wrong. How, I would love to ask Mr. Baldwin, would our understanding help us to “get it?” How would our undergoing “parental alienation” help us to understand that what Mr. Baldwin did to his daughter is somehow justified? After all, Mr. Baldwin seems to be saying if we had ever undergone “parental alienation,” we would understand—cut him some slack.

4. “I am sorry for what happened. But I am equally sorry that a court order was violated…”— See how the man is trying to shift blame? What the man is sorry for, I cannot fathom, but I most certainly see that he is blaming the one who violated a court order. Baldwin cannot, at least as yet, just say that no matter what the circumstances were, no matter what the situation dealt, no matter what information he was provided to which he had to respond, that he was wrong—period—for lashing out at that child.

The past decades, if not a century, of psychoanalytical psychobabble has taught Americans that they are victims. If they act out with bad behavior, it couldn’t possibly be the fault of the one who chose the bad behavior. It was “the circumstance’s fault.” If they get caught in some behavioral sin, then it wasn’t their fault but the fault of someone or something that provided them with something to which they had to respond and did so badly.

Every circumstance, situation, problem, child acting out, a spouse acting out, a boss firing you, is just information provided to you. You get to choose how you are going to react to what is before you. All we ever do is behave. From the time we are born to the time we die, all we do is choose behaviors in response to a stimulus. What marks us as mature, sane, and rational is how we’ve learned to think critically through a bad hand dealt us and choosing the correct, socially appropriate and morally correct behavior.

Was one of Alex Baldwin’s choices when his daughter didn’t pick up the phone when he called to lash out in an abusive tirade at her? Yes.

However, thinking, and I mean using critical thinking skills, is what would have directed him to consider better alternatives. He could have ranted at the girl or he could have made a better choice. A little bit of maturity would have gone a long way in preventing his childish behavior.

Oh, Mr. Baldwin, we understand perfectly and are wondering,

“Just who is the child here?”

And this from The Leadership Council:

The Leadership Council Responds to Alec Baldwin's Phone Message



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A private phone message was recently released to the media that Alec Baldwin left for his 11 year old daughter. A family law judge was so alarmed after hearing the tape, that she temporarily barred Baldwin from having any contact with his child.

Baldwin has reportedly apologized to his daughter for the phone call. He also issued a public apology, claiming to “have been driven to the edge by parental alienation for many years now. You have to go through this to understand.”

Baldwin and ex-wife Basinger have been locked in a custody and visitation battle over their daughter since the couple divorced in 2002.

This disturbing message from an upset parent to his child illustrates many important points about parenting, custody disputes, and parental reactions when they have limited access to their child.

To learn about these issues and how to respond visit The Leadership Council

(From the Justice for Children website)

* Each year, in almost half of all confirmed cases of child abuse, children do not receive any type of service to prevent re-abuse.

* 40-50% of all children who die from abuse and neglect in our country had previous referrals to agencies mandated by law to protect them. JFC believes that every one of these children could and should have been saved.

* The CPS philosophy of reunifying abused children with their offender leads to abusive families recycling through protective services systems.

* JFC believes the efforts of law enforcement to conduct a thorough investigation are thwarted by reporting criminal child abuse to a civil agency.

* Family/domestic courts often fail to recognize legitimate allegations of child abuse in child custody cases and are insensitive to the best interest of the child.

fyi: Stephanie Dallam and Dr. Bob Geffner of The Leadership Council are familiar with my case, as is Eileen King, the Regional Director (Washington DC) of Justice for Children. Ive worked with PROTECT, and several State and Federal Legislators on this issue. I am affiliated with California Protective Parents Association as well.

I recognize abuse when I see it and I know firsthand what happens in Family Court to abused kids and protective parents. In this instance I only gave my opinion but 9/10ths of you ganged up on me and belittled me for having the nerve to be the ONLY one who gave Kim the benefit of the doubt and DARING to label Alec an abuser. Every bit of research Ive ever done, every scholarly bit of learning Ive ever acquired and every sad year the Court system let my son down tells me I am RIGHT.

Deanna, you keep harping on the fact that I said I havent read much about this, well, thats partly due to the media gag order. I know as much about this as any other person in America who reads the headlines. You twist my meaning and then try to crucify me and call me irrational because I identify Alec's abuse for what it is based on what Ive seen/read about child abuse. Im not sure how that makes ME irrational, personally I find your blind defense of an obvious abuser irrational!!. In any event, since I am now finding articles that are articulating what I tried to say, your label just doesnt fit. so sorry. But now, at least I know where I stand with you...and you know what?? no great loss.

[strandinthewind]

Once again, you completely cannot get that a woman can poison the mind of a child against the father. I'd be pissed too if my ex wife did that - and i'd want to beat the hell out of her too - - and, she'd deserve it (not that I'd actually do it mind you)

I get that there are abusive parents. They deserve to be restrained in what ever form necessary.

But, here, there is no evidence AB has ever hit his child or that he is ever going to. I get that AB has lost his temper, but who the hell has not? There is evidence, however, that Kim has used Ireland to manipluate AB and provoke his temper. The evidence is Kim is the adult and she was responsible for complying with the court ordered visitation. She consistently did not and certainly she, of all people, knew that would piss AB off. So, she set a trap using her child as bait. To me, that is far more abusive to Ireland than anything AB said or that he has done to some random third party. And, what was her gain in this? Well, she gets Ireland all to herself now and AB is out in the cold for a few harsh but not damning words that were provoked from him - seems like the text book def. of parental alienation to me, but I think you do not believe in that when it is the man being alienated. I think the facts of this case as we know them strongly support this version of events and in no way support what you think happened, which is that AB is beating the hell out of Ireland and Kim has never alleged this in court and instead and, despite seven or so years of the meanist litigation most have ever scene where everything imaginable has been alleged - she has refused to bring this rather significant detail up on court. That argument is makes no sense to me. Kim apparently is a very strong woman.

In the end, divorce is an ugly thing and that ugliness is not always the man's fault. Yet, you seem always to side with the woman and seemingly can never see that woman can be just as bad as men in a divorce proceeding.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Once again, you completely cannot get that a woman can poison the mind of a child against the father. I'd be pissed too if my ex wife did that - and i'd want to beat the hell out of her too - - and, she'd deserve it (not that I'd actually do it mind you)

I get that there are abusive parents. They deserve to be restrained in what ever form necessary.

But, here, there is no evidence AB has ever hit his child or that his ever going to. I get that AB has lost his temper, but who the hell has not? There is evidence, however, that Kim has used Ireland to manipluate AB and provoke his temper. The evidence is Kim is the adult and she was responsible for complying with the court ordered visitation. She consistently did not and certainly she, of all people, knew that would piss AB off. So, she set a trap using her child as bait. To me, that is far more abusive to Ireland than anything AB said or that he has done to some random third party. And, what was her gain in this? Well, she gets Ireland all to herself now and AB is out in the cold for a few harsh but not damning words that were provoked from him - seems like the text book def. of parental alienation to me, but I think you do not believe in that when it is the man being alienated. I think the facts of this case as we know them strongly support this version of events and in no way support what you think happened, which is that AB is beating the hell out of Ireland and Kim has never alleged this in court and instead and, despite seven or so years of the meanist litigation most has ever scene where everything imaginable has been alleged, she has refused to bring this up in court. That argument is makes no sense to me.

In the end, divorce is an ugly thing and that ugliness is not always the man's fault. Yet, you seem always to side with the woman and seemingly can never see that woman can be just as bad as men in a divorce proceeding.

Im not saying it doesnt happen, but Im not convinced its happening here, particularly if by all accounts Ireland has a good relationship with her dad.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions (ie "trap" "using Ireland to manipulate AB" "Kim did not comply with Court Order" )

first of all, there's no trap: Alec didnt have to leave a message on the machine and he CERTAINLY DID NOT need to leave an abusive one.

even if I agree that the word "pig" is relatively mild as name calling goes, he went OVERBOARD. Added to that, the implied threat (coming to set you straight) Give me a break. Stop excusing this man. As far as Im concerned, there is AMPLE evidence that Alec is an abuser. At the very least he has anger issues and has abused others in the past (mostly adults).

I dont feel in the least sorry for him and the fact that you do, is disappointing (but not surprising) to say the least.

as for your other assumptions (that Kim should have forced her daughter to take the call but didnt or that she is manipulating Ireland, sounds to me like thats speculation, since we dont KNOW for certain whether or not she was home, under what circumstances the call was received. There are myriad possiblities that could also exonerate Kim. Since her ATTORNEY apparently sanctioned the release of this tape, one has to assume that he had a valid LEGAL reason for doing so.

Alec blew it, plain and simple. Boys can NOT be boys unfortunately when it comes to abuse. I believe Alec exhibits traits of an abusive personality and NOW, he is being looked at. GOOD.

by the way, I dont ALWAYS side with the woman. I actually gave my ex the benefit of the doubt when he told he he was falsely accused of sexually molesting a neighborhood girl. his ex-wife backed him up. his daughter defended him. I had no idea we were ALL wrong.

[strandinthewind]

Bless your heart, it is Kim's job as the adult to make her child comply with court ordered visitation - don't you get that? It was not just this one call. Kim consistently did not do this and she did not move the court for relief from the visitation. One parent cannot just refuse court ordered visitation. I mean AB was at dinner in NYC and had just spoken lovingly about his daughter on Letterman. Then, AB takes time away from his dinner in a rest. to go outside and call Ireland because he knew that was his time to talk to her. And, she does not answer the phone again. I'd be pissed too. Moreover, what he said was just not that awful. Yea, he called her a pig, but she was acting like an ass if this was her own will. If Kim prevented her from taking that call, then Kim is abusive.

But, you will never admit this because you think AB is an abuser though there is no evidence that he has ever hit Ireland. You are basing this all on one phone message he says was provoked.

I do not think Kim's attorney has admited in any way to releasing this tape. But, I could be wrong.

As for me feeling sorry for AB, I see Kim B. as a vindictive beeyotch based on the facts I see. That you cannot even entertain the notion discredits your subjectivity. That is why people see you as always siding with the woman. You are perceived as a man hater. I am not being hateful here. I am just saying why people see you this way. Also, I do not feel sorry for AB. He was way stupid for falling for Kim's little trap.

Anyway, let's hear what he says on The View before we go reound and round.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Bless your heart, it is Kim's job as the adult to make her child comply with court ordered visitation - don't you get that? It was not just this one call. Kim consistently did not do this and she did not move the court for relief from the visitation. One parent cannot just refuse court ordered visitation. I mean AB was at dinner in NYC and had just spoken lovingly about his daughter on Letterman. Then, AB takes time away from his dinner in a rest. to go outside and call Ireland because he knew that was his time to talk to her. And, she does not answer the phone again. I'd be pissed too. Moreover, what he said was just not that awful. Yea, he called her a pig, but she was acting like an ass if this was her own will. If Kim prevented her from taking that call, then Kim is abusive.

But, you will never admit this because you think AB is an abuser though there is no evidence that he has ever hit Ireland. You are basing this all on one phone message he says was provoked.

I do not think Kim's attorney has admited in any way to releasing this tape. But, I could be wrong.

As for me feeling sorry for AB, I see Kim B. as a vindictive beeyotch based on the facts I see. That you cannot even entertain the notion discredits your subjectivity. That is why people see you as always siding with the woman. You are perceived as a man hater. I am not being hateful here. I am just saying why people see you this way. Also, I do not feel sorry for AB. He was way stupid for falling for Kim's little trap.

Anyway, let's hear what he says on The View before we go reound and round.

There is such a thing as good cause my friend and you know that as well as I do. As for whether or not she petitioned the court for relief, we dont know WHAT her response was to the contempt. perhaps she DID petition for relief.
With the media gag order in place all you or I can do is speculate.

Personally, I dont CARE what Alec has to say in his own defense, when he began spouting that "Parental Alienation" crap, I knew all I needed to know about HIS mindset.

by the way, the Parental Alienation Syndrome created by Richard Gardner has been denounced by every scientific/psychological association as well as many Judicial organizations. It is confirmed JUNK SCIENCE and the man who created it (and who is now dead) was himself a confirmed abuser.

Father's rights groups have latched onto it for dear life, but here in CA, its about to go away forever. There is pending legislation to bar its introduction into Family Court proceedings. Huzzah!

also, you are WRONG about who I "always" side with please note that you missed this crucial bit in my previous post:

by the way, I dont ALWAYS side with the woman. I actually gave my ex the benefit of the doubt when he told he he was falsely accused of sexually molesting a neighborhood girl. his ex-wife backed him up. his daughter defended him. I had no idea we were ALL wrong.