50,000 dogs

[amber]

^^^ we weren't talking about your daughter, and actually she's American, isn't she?
I don't think we were talking about any individual Chinese people, either, ie, not China as a whole. I don't think any of us said Chinese people aren't nice. We were speaking moreso about the gov't, and some of the culture, the parts that think it is okay to beat 50,000 dogs, and have slave labor, and not care about the environment.

Also, a few of us were fans of the population control efforts.

Sorry, but China pisses me off. Your daughter, however, does not.

Just because China is poor, uneducated, and thousands of years old doesn't mean we have to think it is okay for them to value boy babies more. China sure as hell doesn't value our cultural values. Maybe if more people express distaste, China will change faster. You never know.

I don't think any of us is lame enough to think every Chinese person, or any Chinese person, is specifically undesireable because they are Chinese. And I think a lot of us are aware of their valuable cultural contributions to the world.

I think we've all also been horrified at political aspects of China. Political aspects that piss us off. Heck yeah I'll pass judgement on China. Also, if China wants population control, do they give birth control to all it's residents? Just wondering.

[Violet]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

with all due respect Carol, any culture that values one sex over another (for ANY reason) is messed up. Its no secret (and I guess you know this because you adopted a GIRL) that boys are more important than Girls in Chinese culture. Therefore, there is a built in (IMO) problem with the value put on different sexes. Did you want a boy? did you even ask? if so, what was your answer? just some points to think about.

I never said valuing a boy was right or wrong. I just said it's a custom that is thousands of years old. It's not something that can be changed overnight. Like I said, especially in the more rural areas.

We did not put a preference for a boy or girl. Quite frankly, we just wanted a baby. And FYI, there are boys who are second births who are being abandoned.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Violet

The one child policy was instituted to try to control the population. In urban areas, you are allowed one child, period. If you have more than one, you are fined HEAVILY. If you are in a rural area and your first-born is a girl, you can have another child to try for a boy. A lot of times baby girls are "abandoned," (which as a mom is a very difficult word for me to use), because boys are preferred. Why are boys preferred? Keep in mind that China's culture is thousands of years old, and although they are rapidly becoming more up-to-date in terms of technology, economics, etc, most of the country is still very, very poor, uneducated and old-fashioned. For thousands of years, sons in China have been relied upon to care for their parents in old age. It is something that has been done in families for generations. Girls are married off to a man who will care for HIS parents.

Since you quoted my post, I will happily respond. I am well aware of why the policy was instituted. I applaud it. I don't applaud, however, a value system in which female children are ditched for whatever reason. I don't give a rip how old the culture is. Tell that to the abandoned kid.

But you don't live in China and you're passing judgment on China as a whole, and that sucks.
Carol

I pass judgment on places and people all the time when I haven't been the people or lived in the country. Passing judgment is crucial to survival. I love passing judgment. In fact, I just ordered a t-shirt that says "I am silently judging you".
My comments were flip, but this is a message board and I like being flip. I didn't say the country ought to be blown off the map. I leave that particular judgment for select countries in the middle east.

My passing judgment may suck to you, but it sucks not nearly as much as being a kid tossed in a friggin ditch next to hut. Or, for that matter, being a dog that gets beaten to death.

[Violet]

Originally Posted by amber

^^^ we weren't talking about your daughter, and actually she's American, isn't she?
I don't think we were talking about any individual Chinese people, either, ie, not China as a whole. I don't think any of us said Chinese people aren't nice. We were speaking moreso about the gov't, and some of the culture, the parts that think it is okay to beat 50,000 dogs, and have slave labor, and not care about the environment.

Also, a few of us were fans of the population control efforts.

Sorry, but China pisses me off. Your daughter, however, does not.

Just because China is poor, uneducated, and thousands of years old doesn't mean we have to think it is okay for them to value boy babies more. China sure as hell doesn't value our cultural values. Maybe if more people express distaste, China will change faster. You never know.

I don't think any of us is lame enough to think every Chinese person, or any Chinese person, is specifically undesireable because they are Chinese. And I think a lot of us are aware of their valuable cultural contributions to the world.

I think we've all also been horrified at political aspects of China. Political aspects that piss us off. Heck yeah I'll pass judgement on China.

First, my daughter is technically Chinese Amerian. She is an American citizen who was born in China to Chinese birthparents.

Second, you are passing judgment on more than just the govt. It's a communist country...trust me, their govt doesn't thrill me, either. Things are definitely changing in the bigger cities -- Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou. It's the smaller communities I'm talking about that are not going to change overnight.

Hey, of course China pisses people off. Pisses me off sometimes, too. That's great, but you're making blanket statements about China not giving a **** about its people, etc. (Yes, I know it wasn't you, Amber, who said that exact quote) I'm trying to help you understand the boy preference. Of course I don't agree with it either. But I can at least try to understand why people who have lived with this custom for centuries are hesitant to give it up so quickly.

I know you were talking more so about the govt. I was trying to give you a feel for how many, many Chinese live.

Also, I never thought my daughter pissed you off. Give me some credit, Amber.

[Violet]

Originally Posted by sparky

Tell that to the abandoned kid.

I have, and I will again and again and again when she questions how/why she was adopted.

I think it's pretty holier-than-thou of you to pass judgment on everything and anything you want so easily. I'm not like that. I at least TRY to understand why something/someone may be the way they are.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Violet

I have, and I will again and again and again when she questions how/why she was adopted.

I wasn't talking about your kid. My post wasn't about your kid. I was speaking hypothetically about the kid in my previous sentence.

I think it's pretty holier-than-thou of you to pass judgment on everything and anything you want so easily. I'm not like that. I at least TRY to understand why something/someone may be the way they are.

Sure you are like that. You sure passed judgment on me pretty quick, Gladys. I post here a whole lot and if you had read anything I have ever written you might have known how to interpret my tone and sense of humor. And btw, everyone passes judgment all day, everyday, on everyone and everything. Otherwise, none of us would make it home alive.

Is there an emoticon for Xanax ? Anyone ? Is there ?

[amber]

Originally Posted by Violet

First, my daughter is technically Chinese Amerian. She is an American citizen who was born in China to Chinese birthparents.

Nevertheless, she lives here. I'm Italian, but I don't think what Mussolini did was awesome, nor do I think people should excuse it within a cultural context. They can understand it that way, but excusing it, no.

Originally Posted by Violet

Second, you are passing judgment on more than just the govt. It's a communist country...trust me, their govt doesn't thrill me, either. Things are definitely changing in the bigger cities -- Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou. It's the smaller communities I'm talking about that are not going to change overnight.

No, I wasn't. Oh, wait, yes, I passed judgement on some of their culture, the part that beats 50,000 dogs, doesn't care about the environment, and has slave labor. However, I did say I wasn't judging every Chinese person. I don't care how fast the smaller communities change, the customs may still piss me off.

Originally Posted by Violet

Hey, of course China pisses people off. Pisses me off sometimes, too. That's great, but you're making blanket statements about China not giving a **** about its people, etc. (Yes, I know it wasn't you, Amber, who said that exact quote) I'm trying to help you understand the boy preference. Of course I don't agree with it either. But I can at least try to understand why people who have lived with this custom for centuries are hesitant to give it up so quickly.

I know you were talking more so about the govt. I was trying to give you a feel for how many, many Chinese live.

Also, I never thought my daughter pissed you off. Give me some credit, Amber.

Logically, your argument (saying your daughter was Chinese) pointed to you thinking I was talking about your daughter, or that somehow your daughter was related to your argument. If you know none of us were pissed of about your daughter, why bring her into it? Doesn't make sense to me. Also, I hope when your daughter gets older, China will piss her off, too.
I'm actually pretty aware about how many, many chinese people live. Just for your info.

I wish China pissed off our gov't not to trade with them. I wish China pissed everyone off enough to effect change in China.

I think that we have enough information about China to within reason say they don't give a **** about their people.

Also, I think a lot of us probably do understand China, why it is like it is, and are passing judgement anyway - so for you to say "at least I try to understand without passing judgement" seems odd. I can understand lots and lots about China and it will still piss me off. Again, without me judging that every individual Chinese person is bad.

I understand why people molest children, it doesn't make me sympathetic enough to say child molesters don't piss me off.


When people are judgemental and pissed off, sometimes that's where the most beneficial change comes.
JMO. Sorry if you are offended, I really am, and you know I like and respect you, but my opinion aobut this won't change in the near future.

[Violet]

Originally Posted by sparky

I wasn't talking about your kid. My post wasn't about your kid. I was speaking hypothetically about the kid in my previous sentence.



Sure you are like that. You sure passed judgment on me pretty quick, Gladys. I post here a whole lot and if you had read anything I have ever written you might have known how to interpret my tone and sense of humor. And btw, everyone passes judgment all day, everyday, on everyone and everything. Otherwise, none of us would make it home alive.

Is there an emoticon for Xanax ? Anyone ? Is there ?

actually I could use some Xanax, but it's not because of this conversation. It's because of the pile of work on my desk I still have to do before I go away for a few days.

I apologize for misinterpreting your tone. And you're right. I do read a lot of your posts and do see humor in them. This whole abandonment thing is a sensitive issue in our house, and I take it seriously. I KNOW you were speaking hypothetically, but I wasn't. I do have to explain the one child policy and the boy preference to her.

Yes, I know everyone passes judgment all day every day, including me. But for those of you who passed it on Chinese who abandon girls, I was just trying to help you understand their side. I'm not trying to justify it, believe me.

Gees, I am so not getting work done.....

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Violet

actually I could use some Xanax, but it's not because of this conversation. It's because of the pile of work on my desk I still have to do before I go away for a few days.

I need a xanax myself. My insomnia is killing me.

I apologize for misinterpreting your tone. And you're right. I do read a lot of your posts and do see humor in them. This whole abandonment thing is a sensitive issue in our house, and I take it seriously. I KNOW you were speaking hypothetically, but I wasn't. I do have to explain the one child policy and the boy preference to her.

Oh, I need no apology. That was a fun and enlightening exchange for the both of us. And you have a tough row to hoe with that whole thing.

Yes, I know everyone passes judgment all day every day, including me. But for those of you who passed it on Chinese who abandon girls, I was just trying to help you understand their side. I'm not trying to justify it, believe me.

AMber, my sistah, said it much better than I could. I knew all that stuff, but you probably educated a number of people who don't.

Gees, I am so not getting work done.....

Work is so overrated. Have a cocktail and relax.
No one ever died and wished they had worked later.

[Violet]

Originally Posted by amber

Nevertheless, she lives here. I'm Italian, but I don't think what Mussolini did was awesome, nor do I think people should excuse it within a cultural context. They can understand it that way, but excusing it, no.


No, I wasn't. Oh, wait, yes, I passed judgement on some of their culture, the part that beats 50,000 dogs, doesn't care about the environment, and has slave labor. However, I did say I wasn't judging every Chinese person. I don't care how fast the smaller communities change, the customs may still piss me off.


Logically, your argument (saying your daughter was Chinese) pointed to you thinking I was talking about your daughter, or that somehow your daughter was related to your argument. If you know none of us were pissed of about your daughter, why bring her into it? Doesn't make sense to me. Also, I hope when your daughter gets older, China will piss her off, too.
I'm actually pretty aware about how many, many chinese people live. Just for your info.

I wish China pissed off our gov't not to trade with them. I wish China pissed everyone off enough to effect change in China.

I think that we have enough information about China to within reason say they don't give a **** about their people.

Also, I think a lot of us probably do understand China, why it is like it is, and are passing judgement anyway - so for you to say "at least I try to understand without passing judgement" seems odd. I can understand lots and lots about China and it will still piss me off. Again, without me judging that every individual Chinese person is bad.

I understand why people molest children, it doesn't make me sympathetic enough to say child molesters don't piss me off.


When people are judgemental and pissed off, sometimes that's where the most beneficial change comes.
JMO. Sorry if you are offended, I really am, and you know I like and respect you, but my opinion aobut this won't change in the near future.

Okay...I never meant to imply any of you were talking about my daughter. I brought her up originally so you would understand why I know about the one-child policy and some of the customs. But while we're talking about her...yes, she does live her, but not really by her choice. We took her at 9 months out of her birth country, so we owe it to her to educate her about her heritage, the good and the bad. I don't think I ever said I excuse any particular custom...just that I try to understand things from their side. And yes, those customs may piss you off, and that's fine. They piss me off, too.

Realistically I guess you can say that in some way every country doesn't give a **** about their people. I guess it's the blanket statement that bothers me. And again, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. Trust me, I'm not that confrontational. And I don't want you to change your opinion. Just trying, again, to help you understand why things aren't changing as quickly as we'd like. God, I sure hope it didn't sound like I was for some of these things.

And I hope that people don't think that all these babies are tossed aside like tomorrow's garbage. Most are left where they WILL be found. I've heard (can't remember from where or how it's known) that sometimes birthmothers/birthfathers or whoever leaves the baby will hide someplace to make sure the baby is found. Many times notes are left with the babies. I've also heard of babies being killed and that sickens me. Part of the paperwork in Chinese adoptions includes and "abandonment certificate," that lists the finding place and when a baby is left with a note and swaddled in blankets in a busy market, I have to believe that the person who left the baby believed they were doing the best they could for that child.

I'm rambling now because I'm tired and need to go to bed.

Carol

[irishgrl]

If this type of abandonment is rampant in China, you'd think--given their one child policy--that they would be more diligent about birth control.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by Violet

Hey, of course China pisses people off. Pisses me off sometimes, too. That's great, but you're making blanket statements about China not giving a **** about its people, etc. (Yes, I know it wasn't you, Amber, who said that exact quote)

No, that was me. It was a blanket statement referring to the communist government in China, but it's just my opinion. I didn't say "Chinese people are assh*les", I just expressed my feeling that their government does not care about them, and I stand by that comment based on what I've seen, heard & learned. You're right, I've never been there - but since you have, can you honestly say that the Chinese government takes great care of its people? If so, fine. We don't have to agree.

I appreciate the information you've given us, and I'm sorry if you were upset by my comment. But it was in no way directed at your daughter, or the Chinese people as a whole. I work with a very large international student population, and many of them are from China. The Chinese students that I have met & worked with are kind, intelligent, lovely people. But a communist government is another story.

[bretonbanquet]

This story doesn't surprise me one bit. I'll file it with the story I read of thousands of racehorses being killed when some people decided horse racing wasn't making enough money, and the videos I saw of cats and dogs being skinned alive for their fur - and there was sound on those videos.

I reserve the right to pass judgement on people who brutalise animals, and all the stories I hear like this one come from China. I do not tar all Chinese people with the same brush, but it pi**es me off that an alarmingly high proportion of people in that country still feel that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. When I think how the world's population needs to be reduced by a significant amount, I usually conclude that we should start with people who think this kind of thing is OK.

Let's do something about it! No wait, let's give them the Olympics instead - that'll make them realise that we have issues with the way they do things...

I'd also add that it has nothing to do with communism - European communist countries never did this kind of thing. The babies policy - maybe, but not the animals. That is an Asian thing.

[SteveMacD]

The Chinese government has a policy that the world knows has lead to the deaths of thousands of baby girls, and somehow we're the assholes for commenting on it?

Now, I've actually been to China, and I love a lot of things about the Chinese culture. But it certainly has its faults, too, and cruelty to people and animals certainly ranks high on that list. EVERY culture has its faults. My last name is MacDougall, yet I wouldn't go within a hundred feet of most traditional Scottish food.

[DavidMn]

Good lord, that wasnt necessary!