The Ledge Usage Guide

[David]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

sbtw: correct yourself. NOMITIVE = OBJECTIVE ACCUSATIVE = SUBJECTIVE

Nope.

Nominative = subjective
Accusative = objective

http://web.uvic.ca/wguide/Pages/GramSub.html

Check your book again. Maybe you found a ****up in it & can now send the author or publisher a correction!

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by David

You ROCK, babe!!!

Well *blushes* thanx for noticing!

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by David

Grammar & usage questions crop up from time to time on our Ledge, so I thought we'd have a thread devoted to questions of usage. We have a bunch of students here, & others need some guidance at work, whether they're writing a paper or typing a memo for the boss. So we can use this thread to discuss usage issues or grammar bogglers--asking, answering, arguing, dissing, yelling, screaming & making up (in verbal terms, of course).

I'll start with the difference between masterful & masterly.

Masterful means domineering. It describes a powerful, even bullying, superior:
Stevie felt at times that Mick's bossy & bullying management style was masterful.

Masterly means skillful:
Lindsey's performances on the Tusk Tour were masterly.
The craftsmanship of a Christine McVie song is masterly.

See the difference? Masterful vs. masterly. When you think of masterful, think of the master-servant relationship.

However, when you need the adverb, use masterfully for both senses:
Mick masterfully demanded that Stevie drop Silver Springs from the album.
Lindsey masterfully played Red Rover at Soundstage.

I try not to be a dick...but I HATE it when people use "your" and "You're" incorrectly. Also "A lot" is two words ...its not "alot"

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by David

Nope.

Nominative = subjective
Accusative = objective

http://web.uvic.ca/wguide/Pages/GramSub.html

Check your book again. Maybe you found a ****up in it & can now send the author or publisher a correction!

honest to GAWD David, thats what she said:

AHEM; PAGE(S) 147-149

G3-C: USE PERSONAL PRONOUNS IN THE PROPER CASE


the personal prounouns in the following chart change what is known as case form according to their grammatical function in a sentence. Pronouns functioning as subjects or subject complements appear in the subjective case; those functioning as objects appear in the objective case, and those functioning as possessive appear in the possessive case.

SUBJECTIVE CASE
I/WE/YOU/HE/SHE/IT/THEY

OBJECTIVE CASE
ME/US/YOU//HIM/HER/IT/THEM

POSSESSIVE CASE
MY/OUR/YOUR/HIS/HER/ITS/THEIR

[Red]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

Also "A lot" is two words ...its not "alot"

THANK YOU!!!

That's as bad as anywayS.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by Red

anywayS.

Guilty.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

Grammar & usage questions crop up from time to time on our Ledge, so I thought we'd have a thread devoted to questions of usage. We have a bunch of students here, & others need some guidance at work, whether they're writing a paper or typing a memo for the boss. So we can use this thread to discuss usage issues or grammar bogglers--asking, answering, arguing, dissing, yelling, screaming & making up (in verbal terms, of course).

I'll start with the difference between masterful & masterly.

Masterful means domineering. It describes a powerful, even bullying, superior:
Stevie felt at times that Mick's bossy & bullying management style was masterful.

Masterly means skillful:
Lindsey's performances on the Tusk Tour were masterly.
The craftsmanship of a Christine McVie song is masterly.

See the difference? Masterful vs. masterly. When you think of masterful, think of the master-servant relationship.

However, when you need the adverb, use masterfully for both senses:
Mick masterfully demanded that Stevie drop Silver Springs from the album.
Lindsey masterfully played Red Rover at Soundstage.

I must genuflect at and for you sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[elie]

Originally Posted by Red

THANK YOU!!!

That's as bad as anywayS.

I never got that. Is it incorrect to say anywayS instead of anyway? I was under the impression that americans use it a lot, so I figured it was ok. It does sound odd to me though.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by elie

I never got that. Is it incorrect to say anywayS instead of anyway? I was under the impression that americans use it a lot, so I figured it was ok. It does sound odd to me though.

If 'Anyways' is something that you guys say, then it's OK to write it in informal settings. It's not grammatically correct, but there you go. I can see how some people would get irritated by it though

English is a language that has been heavily mangled throughout its existence thanks to all the different cultures that use it around the world. Some of those manglings inevitably make it through to become accepted grammar. You lot started all that

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

please see the highlighted part above. why wouldnt you say between "she and I" instead of "me and her?"

As David and I have noted, the object of a preposition always takes the objective (or accusative) case.

I dont know why but I seem to have this aversion to anything that uses ME instead of I. Wasnt there a rule that it was more proper to use "I" instead of "me?"......

There's no "more proper" or "less proper" here, there's just "proper" and "improper." I think I know what you're talking about, though. There was a time when a lot of people used to say things like, "Me and Joanie are going to get ice cream," which is incorrect. "Joanie and I are going to get ice cream." "I" is a subject of the sentence, so you need the subjective (or nominative) case. At some point, somebody must have made a big deal about this, and everybody realized that this was wrong, and they all started using "I" and "he" and "she" a lot more. But they overcompensated and started carrying it over to prepositional phrases, which is incorrect. When you're talking to some people, you can tell they're actually making an effort to say "between he and I" because they think it's correct and sounds smart, but they're wrong.

OK: I got out my trusty little Writer's Reference and I want to clarify some terms
instead of "accusative" my reference refers to the following as SUBJECTIVE CASE:
I/we/you/he/she/it/they.
OBJECTIVE CASE (not Nominative):
me/us/you/him/her/it/them

You're getting mixed up. "Subjective" and "nominative" mean the same thing. "Objective" and "accusative" mean the same thing. Different guides will use different terms. Other than that, you're correct. The subjective pronouns are I, we, you, he, she, it and they. The objective pronouns are me, us, you, him, her, it and them.

Im still not clear why "between he and I" is incorrect???

There's not really any other way to explain it. The object of a preposition always takes the objective case. That's all there is to it.

I guess what Im really trying to find out is when you use subjective and when you use objective? its not really clear....

Simple enough: The subjective case applies to the subject of a sentence. The objective case applies to the object of a sentence, or to the object of a preposition.

what about something like: "this is between ME and YOUR mother!" there's one objective case and one subjective case!

No, "your" is a possessive pronoun, indicating that "mother" belongs to "you." "Me" and "mother" are the two objects of the preposition "between" in that sentence. "Mother" is in the objective case here, although English nouns and their articles never change, no matter what case they're in.

HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!!!! "you" and "it" are in both lists!!!! what now??????

"You" and "it" don't change. They stay the same whether used in the subjective case or objective case.

The butler punched you. You punched the butler.

I smelled it. It smelled funny.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Ok, on this one I want actual proof because I think YOU'RE incorrect about that.

http://www.gwr.arizona.edu/overcoming3.htm

DON'T USE COLONS where they don't belong:
--After TO BE verbs like IS or ARE

Bad: His problems were: poverty, hunger, and disease.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

I do this sometimes, too. Same with "none."

Incorrect: Thankfully, none of the chiffonheads were wearing the same shawl.

Correct: None of the Buckingholics was convinced that the man would actually release an album this year.

Good sentences

[David]

The phrase "can't help but ..." ("I can't help but think she hates dogs") is a solecism that should be avoided. On this, I part company with the estimable Bryan Garner, author of "The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage & Style," who says "can't help but" is such a widespread construction at this point that it should no longer be considered incorrect.

Sorry, Mr. Garner, but letting the wording stand will have no benefit, & the result would continue to be confusion, since the phrase means exactly the opposite of what it's intended to mean. When I see it in print, I wonder just what the writer meant. Did he use the form deliberately in order to say the opposite of what you expected him to say? Did he use the form with no knowledge of its ambiguity? As with so many other errors, readers are left puzzled.

The correct idioms are 1) "can't help" followed by the gerund form & 2) "can't but" followed by the root infinitive.

A. I can't help thinking that Mick is eager to start another crass business venture.

B. I can't but agree that Stevie's work declined in quality in the 1990s.

[Jyqm]

Let's talk Latin, shall we?

1) "per se" - This is a Latin phrase meaning "by, of, or in itself." In other words, "intrinsically." Per se. Not "per say."

2) "etc." - This is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "et cetera," meaning "and the rest" or "and other such things." It is not written "ect," for obvious reasons. I think the reason people write this incorrectly is because they pronounce it incorrectly when they speak it. It's pronounced just as it's written, though: "et cetera." Not "eck cetera," as many people seem to say.

[Mari]

Ik denk dat ik het voortaan maar bij het nederlands houd, dan weet ik tenminste zeker dat ik geen stomme spelfouten maak... of was het nou Nederlands met een hoofdletter? Verrekte spelvernieuwing!