The Ledge Usage Guide

[David]

Grammar & usage questions crop up from time to time on our Ledge, so I thought we'd have a thread devoted to questions of usage. We have a bunch of students here, & others need some guidance at work, whether they're writing a paper or typing a memo for the boss. So we can use this thread to discuss usage issues or grammar bogglers--asking, answering, arguing, dissing, yelling, screaming & making up (in verbal terms, of course).

I'll start with the difference between masterful & masterly.

Masterful means domineering. It describes a powerful, even bullying, superior:
Stevie felt at times that Mick's bossy & bullying management style was masterful.

Masterly means skillful:
Lindsey's performances on the Tusk Tour were masterly.
The craftsmanship of a Christine McVie song is masterly.

See the difference? Masterful vs. masterly. When you think of masterful, think of the master-servant relationship.

However, when you need the adverb, use masterfully for both senses:
Mick masterfully demanded that Stevie drop Silver Springs from the album.
Lindsey masterfully played Red Rover at Soundstage.

[HomerMcvie]

I can admit mine, although it should've been rectified in 2nd grade.........

"Whom"

I get confused sometimes on when to use it. And when I do, it just looks funny sitting there, and it's calling me a dumbass for not having it's proper usage down. When am I supposed to use it? And give me three examples.

[bikerchic]

Ho ****, does Stevie ever look like Sheryl Crow in that second pic in you sig David. I had to take a double take.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

I can admit mine, although it should've been rectified in 2nd grade.........

"Whom"

I get confused sometimes on when to use it. And when I do, it just looks funny sitting there, and it's calling me a dumbass for not having it's proper usage down. When am I supposed to use it? And give me three examples.

If the prepositions "to" or "from" are in the sentence, "whom" is the proper word to use.

It is ALWAYS "to whom" or "from whom"

As opposed to the contraction, "who'm", as in "Who'm I supposed to call when the house is flooding?"

And, Pete Townshend's band is THE WHO, not THE WHOM.

Originally Posted by bikerchic

Ho ****, does Stevie ever look like Sheryl Crow in that second pic in you sig David. I had to take a double take.

I was just thinking that same thing.

[David]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

I can admit mine, although it should've been rectified in 2nd grade.........

"Whom"

I get confused sometimes on when to use it. And when I do, it just looks funny sitting there, and it's calling me a dumbass for not having it's proper usage down. When am I supposed to use it? And give me three examples.

Whom is usually either the object of a verb:

"Whom did you see in line at the Christine McVie concert?"

or the object of a preposition:

"Whom does Stevie sing the best with?"

Think of a bunch of prepositions: under, to, with, for, by, between

They all take objective pronouns as objects: me, you, him, her, it, us, them, whom

So when Stevie said "between he & I" on the 1988 Very Special Christmas TV show, she was wrong. She should have said "between him & me."

[elie]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

I can admit mine, although it should've been rectified in 2nd grade.........

"Whom"

I get confused sometimes on when to use it. And when I do, it just looks funny sitting there, and it's calling me a dumbass for not having it's proper usage down. When am I supposed to use it? And give me three examples.

Trying to answer that is definitely out of my league since I 'm not american/english, but I 'm writing this as a test for myself. Please correct me if I make mistakes. I have always thought that "whom" is used like, for example: "this is the friend with whom I went out..," or "for whom did you buy this?" etc.
I guess it goes after -what are these called in english grammar- prepositions?? (sp?)
"Who" is used in setences like: "This the guy who stole my car" etc

David, I wrote mine the same time as you were posting your answer..Sorry I didn't see it

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by David

So when Stevie said "between he & I" on the 1988 Very Special Christmas TV show, she was wrong. She should have said "between him & me."

Believe me, I never dreamed of getting an education at SNU.

[HomerMcvie]

Yeah, I've always got the "with whom" part.
Here's the sentence I was having trouble with last week, in a letter to my city utilities dept.

"Ms. Maloney is the person who(m?) your department authorized service for."

Now, I "felt" it should be "whom", but then decided that these were city workers reading it(probably high school graduates, at best), so I decided it probably didn't matter.


Stupid, deadbeat bi*ch didn't pay her water bill(and ran it up to $140, not to mention $3200 in rent/damages!), and the city's trying to make the property owner pay her utility bills. Said property owner is giving them a fight!

[skcin]

I find myself being unable to spell correctly as of late, especially here. Not sure what happened, I used to be a very good speller.

I guess this is more of a disclaimer than a usage guide or question.

[David]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Yeah, I've always got the "with whom" part.
Here's the sentence I was having trouble with last week, in a letter to my city utilities dept.

"Ms. Maloney is the person who(m?) your department authorized service for."

Whom. "For" is a preposition, & preposition objects need to be in the accusative (aka objective) case.

Mentally recast the syntax to make the construction clearer: "Your department authorized service for Ms. Maloney." ". . . for WHOM?" ". . . for Ms. Maloney, you damn bitch."

You could also just leave out the relative pronoun: Ms. Maloney is the person your department authorized service for." Some employers might encourage the slightly more informal tone in writing to customers, but others might not. That's a matter of house policy, not correctness.

Stevie looks like Sheryl Crow in my sig? (shrug) I dunno. I'm so used to her look on the 1978 tour that she just looks like the Stevie on the '78 tour to me.

[SteveMacD]

It's NOT "would of," "could of," or "should of," it's "would've," "could've," or "should've."

[David]

Originally Posted by skcin

I find myself being unable to spell correctly as of late, especially here. Not sure what happened, I used to be a very good speller.

You & I both, Paula. (I was going to write the more idiomatic "You & me both" but decided I'd better not in a thread devoted to grammar.)

I was a great speller in my school years but nowadays I need to check my dictionary every fifth word!

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by elie

Trying to answer that is definitely out of my league since I 'm not american/english, but I 'm writing this as a test for myself. Please correct me if I make mistakes. I have always thought that "whom" is used like, for example: "this is the friend with whom I went out..," or "for whom did you buy this?" etc.
I guess it goes after -what are these called in english grammar- prepositions?? (sp?)
"Who" is used in setences like: "This the guy who stole my car" etc

You got it exactly right, Elie!

A rule of thumb that might help is to realize that "who" and "whom" are relative pronouns which are being substituted for a definite pronoun. "Who" is used in place of "he" or "she;" "whom" in place of "him" or "her." If you try and think of the dependent clause as its own sentence, you should be able to figure it out pretty easily.

To use your examples:

"This is the friend with (?) I went out." You would say, "I went out with him," not, "I went out with he." So "whom" is correct.

"This is the guy (?) stole my car." You would say, "He stole my car," not, "Him stole my car." So in this case, "who" is correct.

Steve MacDougall already tackled my pet peeve about would/could/should of. I wonder what people who constantly make this error think it means.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

You got it exactly right, Elie!

A rule of thumb that might help is to realize that "who" and "whom" are relative pronouns which are being substituted for a definite pronoun. "Who" is used in place of "he" or "she;" "whom" in place of "him" or "her." If you try and think of the dependent clause as its own sentence, you should be able to figure it out pretty easily.

To use your examples:

"This is the friend with (?) I went out." You would say, "I went out with him," not, "I went out with he." So "whom" is correct.

"This is the guy (?) stole my car." You would say, "He stole my car," not, "Him stole my car." So in this case, "who" is correct.

Steve MacDougall already tackled my pet peeve about would/could/should of. I wonder what people who constantly make this error think it means.

Oh! I get it! Thank you!

You know, there's something similar to the "would of" thing that pisses me off, but I can't think of it right now....

[chiliD]

Ok, so who (correct usage) wants to take on the 1) "there", "their", "they're" and the 2) "hear" & "here" and the 3) "then/than" debacles?