What if Stevie had left in 1980?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

(What are these "best songs" that were omitted from Behind the Mask?)

Billy's "Victim Of Love" comes to mind. That song would have kicked ass live. Go to the "Post Rumours" board. A bunch of the songs are available.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

(What are these "best songs" that were omitted from Behind the Mask)

Besides Billy's "Victim Of Love" that Steve mentioned, there's:

Rick Vito's "Intuition"...with great backing vocals by Christine & Billy...(the song eventually surfaced on his King Of Hearts album with Stevie singing backups...the Fleetwood Mac version, I think, is actually the better version)

They could've resurrected Rick's "Got No Home" which he submitted for the 1988 Greatest Hits set and was turned down. I think it had the most potential for being a "hit single" than anything that WAS released as a single on BTM. And, infinitely a better song...a song that would've fit the overall "feel" of the BTM album...than "Stand On The Rock".

They could've finished "Paper Doll" (which was also turned down for inclusion on the 1988 GH album)...but, again, how different would it have sounded than the finished box set version without Lindsey's contributions? We'll never know. But, for argument's sake, let's say it sounds nearly identical...there's another potential "hit"...sure, it didn't do squat when they released it as a single when the box set came out, but in 1990, it might've had more of a chance to garner airplay then than three years later.

[Villavic]

I agree that the post-Tusk era was not the best for Stevie Nicks. No great songs (besides Gypsy, and Seven Wonders that she cowrote). She was dedicated to her solo career, and later she was too much in drugs.

But... she IS Stevie Nicks. And Fleetwood Mac wouldn't be the same. Actually it wasn't the same when TIME was released.

And I remember Mick's book. during the Tango sessions she was not so involved. And when they listenend the final records, she complained a lot because you couldn't listen to her. Of course, since she wasn't there but few days, as Christine replied.

So they did more recordings with Stevie's voice, adding harmonies, etc. And.. we got the TANGO IN THE NIGHT we know. A great album. And Stevie was there.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Villavic

I agree that the post-Tusk era was not the best for Stevie Nicks. No great songs (besides Gypsy, and Seven Wonders that she cowrote).

Stevie didn't co-write "Seven Wonders." She misheard and missang a lyric, so they gave her a writing credit for it.

Actually it wasn't the same when TIME was released.

It wasn't the same when the white Fleetwood Mac album was released.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

It wasn't the same when the white Fleetwood Mac album was released.

I don't get it. Explain that

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Villavic

I don't get it. Explain that

One frontperson had left the band. Two new ones joined. It was a very different band. It wasn't the same. Just as it wasn't the same when Time was released. Or Behind the Mask. Or Penguin. Or Future Games. Or Kiln House. Or...

Saying, "Fleetwood Mac wasn't the same," is like saying, "I changed my underwear this morning." At least I hope it is.

[chiliD]

I'm assuming when you mentioned that without Stevie and Lindsey, the Time album was a totally different Fleetwood Mac.

Well, my view (and apparently Jyqm's, as well) is that having a whole new frontline of the band (as was on Time) is absolutely the same as when Bob Welch left and Stevie & Lindsey joined. It was a new lineup that was a whole different vibe than the incarnation before it. So, it is incredibly hypocritical of anyone to consider the Time album any differently than when the white album came out in 1975...it was a brand new Fleetwood Mac, different than the Fleetwood Mac that came before. The difference...the 1975 incarnation only had to carry on the tradition of the band, the 1995 incarnation had to live up to the whole Rumours mystique.

EDIT: Jyqm, you beat me to it. And, yeah, the same with EVERY Fleetwood Mac personnel change...however the two most drastic were in 1975 and 1994. With every other personnel change, there was still a front person who carried over. In 1975 & 1994 the entire frontline changed. (Christine never considered herself part of the "frontline"):

Kiln House: Jeremy and Danny were still there
Future Games: Danny was still fronting
Penguin: Bob Welch was still the main frontman & guitarist, even though Dave Walker was added.
white album: all new male lead guitarist/vocalist; added another female lead singer
Behind The Mask: Stevie Nicks was still the focus.
Time: new frontline of Bekka & Dave Mason...no Christine (in concert)

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I'm assuming when you mentioned that without Stevie and Lindsey, the Time album was a totally different Fleetwood Mac.

Well, my view (and apparently Jyqm's, as well) is that having a whole new frontline of the band (as was on Time) is absolutely the same as when Bob Welch left and Stevie & Lindsey joined. It was a new lineup that was a whole different vibe than the incarnation before it. So, it is incredibly hypocritical of anyone to consider the Time album any differently than when the white album came out in 1975...it was a brand new Fleetwood Mac, different than the Fleetwood Mac that came before. The difference...the 1975 incarnation only had to carry on the tradition of the band, the 1995 incarnation had to live up to the whole Rumours mystique.

Yes, you got a point. And now I understand Jyqm, too.

I agree... partially. Cause... I still think Stevie (and Lindsey) was better than Bekka and the others. I mean, it's not just to say "I changed my underwear..." because if you change Calvin Klein for K-mart underwear, or silk for nylon, there is a difference.
and it's not only a tradition. There is a quality difference. Genesis was succesful after Peter Gabrile left the band. And with Phil Collins, I could say it was very different, but it was very good. The Bekka/Dave/... lineup couldn't make it well enough

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by chiliD

(Christine never considered herself part of the "frontline")

Now this is verry interesting. Though I''m detouring from the initial question (something I hate to do within a thread), I ask, why does she think that? IMO she is part of the frontline, and a very important part, from the beginning she entered the band, until BTMAsk. Duirng TIme.. I don't know, I don't find her an important member. I thnik she didn't even want to.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Villavic

The Bekka/Dave/... lineup couldn't make it well enough

Did they have a REAL chance? They ended the tour BEFORE the album came out, there was no marketing for the album, the music scene wasn't condusive to ANYTHING related to Fleetwood Mac to flourish. Remember, neither Street Angel nor Out Of The Cradle, which were released in the same 18 month time frame as Time were chart-toppers, either. That incarnation was disbanded before they could even work on a follow up album. No other main incarnation of Fleetwood Mac lasted only one album. There were incarnations that subtracted one member, but kept the basic lineup...Kiln House (same minus Peter Green), Mystery To Me (same minus Dave Walker), Heroes Are Hard To Find (same minus Bob Weston). Basically, all other lineups lasted two or more albums together...except Time

And, even the Rumours incarnation of Fleetwood Mac couldn't replicate the success of Rumours, either. Tusk sold 4+ million copies, yet was considered a failure. Most bands would sell their souls to the devil to sell 4+ million copies of their albums.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Villavic

I agree... partially. Cause... I still think Stevie (and Lindsey) was better than Bekka and the others. I mean, it's not just to say "I changed my underwear..." because if you change Calvin Klein for K-mart underwear, or silk for nylon, there is a difference.

Regardless, there were plenty of folks who thought Bob Welch was a lot better than Stevie and Lindsey. And there were plenty of folks who thought Peter Green was a lot better than Bob and Danny.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

And there were plenty of folks who thought Peter Green was a lot better than...

...anybody alive...Eric Clapton included.

[Villavic]

but Chili, you are talking in commercial terms, and I agree with you 100%. But OOTCraddle was well critiziced (at least). And Time.. I never read any good review about it.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Villavic

but Chili, you are talking in commercial terms...

Weren't you?

Isn't that the basis of the whole Time criticism? Most people who own it, really like it. Had Time sold even in Mirage or Behind The Mask quantities, do you think we'd be having this debate? Would The Dance even had happened?

As far as critical raves...sure, an album can get all the raves it can in print, but it isn't it the cash register that really is the measure of "success"?

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Weren't you?

Isn't that the basis of the whole Time criticism? Most people who own it, really like it. Had Time sold even in Mirage or Behind The Mask quantities, do you think we'd be having this debate? Would The Dance even had happened?"

Actually I wasn't. I have no idea about BTMask quantities, and I do like it (and I thought that was a real failure $), as I like OOTC and Bare Trees. But Time.. no. I tried, but I couldn't And.. I don't even like Say you will as I do like the White album, OOTC, or BTMask (Sorry Lindseyettes!)

Originally Posted by chiliD

As far as critical raves...sure, an album can get all the raves it can in print, but it isn't it the cash register that really is the measure of "success"?

Well, I do agree this time again.