What if Stevie had left in 1980?

[Jyqm]

A little "what if" query for all of you to discuss while I head off to bed. Imagine if you will: The year is 1980. Fleetwood Mac has just completed its marathon world tour in support of Tusk, and Stevie is working out the details of recording and releasing her first solo album. The rest of the band knows about her decision and isn't terribly happy about it. So Stevie decides, the hell with you kids, I'm outta this band.

How would the careers of Stevie and Fleetwood Mac have been different? Discuss!

Some preliminary suggestions:

On Stevie's side of things, she would have had "Gypsy" for Bella Donna, though who knows what the song might have ended up like without Lindsey's production. Maybe it still would have been a big hit, and Bella Donna would have sold even better.

The Fleetwood Mac side of the equation is where things get really interesting, though. Would Lindsey and Mick still have released their 1981 solo albums? Or would the band, reeling from losing one of its most popular frontpersons, have jumped right back into the studio to record a new album? Would we have seen a much earlier manifestation of the Buckingham-McVie songwriting team that first emerged on Tango in the Night? Would Lindsey have retained much creative control within the band, or would the others have forced him to become even more reactionary and commercial, since not only Tusk not live up to sales expectations, but now they'd lost one of their biggest commercial assets in Stevie? Or would Lindsey have simply followed Stevie's example and said, "The witch is right, forget you guys, I'm outta here," and gone off to record his wacky solo albums? Or maybe something else entirely.

Discuss!

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

A little "what if" query for all of you to discuss while I head off to bed. Imagine if you will: The year is 1980. Fleetwood Mac has just completed its marathon world tour in support of Tusk, and Stevie is working out the details of recording and releasing her first solo album. The rest of the band knows about her decision and isn't terribly happy about it. So Stevie decides, the hell with you kids, I'm outta this band.

How would the careers of Stevie and Fleetwood Mac have been different? Discuss!

Some preliminary suggestions:

On Stevie's side of things, she would have had "Gypsy" for Bella Donna, though who knows what the song might have ended up like without Lindsey's production. Maybe it still would have been a big hit, and Bella Donna would have sold even better.

The Fleetwood Mac side of the equation is where things get really interesting, though. Would Lindsey and Mick still have released their 1981 solo albums? Or would the band, reeling from losing one of its most popular frontpersons, have jumped right back into the studio to record a new album? Would we have seen a much earlier manifestation of the Buckingham-McVie songwriting team that first emerged on Tango in the Night? Would Lindsey have retained much creative control within the band, or would the others have forced him to become even more reactionary and commercial, since not only Tusk not live up to sales expectations, but now they'd lost one of their biggest commercial assets in Stevie? Or would Lindsey have simply followed Stevie's example and said, "The witch is right, forget you guys, I'm outta here," and gone off to record his wacky solo albums? Or maybe something else entirely.

Discuss!

I don't think Stevie wanted "out" of the band completely like Lindsey seemed to want to. I think Stevie wanted to release her solo material, not just a desire to LEAVE Fleetwood Mac (until the Silver Springs inclusion on TimeSpace thing in 1991). Anyway...I dont think Gypsy would've been a "hit" if it had been on Bella Donna. Also, that song didn't really fit into the running of the other Bella Donna songs. Stevie said once that she "saved" Gypsy for Fleetwood Mac. She probably wasn't happy with the way it was turning out in the studio, and knew it could be taken to another level. What Lindsey and Stevie did with Gypsy during the Mirage recordings was amazing. That song...in it's own way is really distinct and unique. I cant think of anything that really sounds like it since.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

A little "what if" query for all of you to discuss while I head off to bed. Imagine if you will: The year is 1980. Fleetwood Mac has just completed its marathon world tour in support of Tusk, and Stevie is working out the details of recording and releasing her first solo album. The rest of the band knows about her decision and isn't terribly happy about it. So Stevie decides, the hell with you kids, I'm outta this band.

Discuss!

Uhmm, I realize it's more complex than this and that they all love each other and so on but - - - how's this for an answer? Just for "food for thought."

- - - She did.

1982: Mirage. Songs:

"That's Alright." - I've never heard of it, and I'm a "long-term fan."

"Gypsy." Brilliant, I agree. Maybe even Stevie's best. But Lindsey wrote the guitar solo and produced/arranged most of this, and Stevie really wrote it as more of a solo song to honor Robin anyway, not for Fleetwood Mac.

"Straight Back" - not exactly memorable..

Five year delay. Lindsey has left the band. Stevie's "not too sorry to see him go," to use Mick Fleetwood's phraseology.

"Tango in the Night."

Stevie has three songs, only one of which was a hit, and that was "co-written" with Sandy Stewart.

Three year delay.

1990: "Behind the Mask." Four songs, none of which are hits.

For all intents and purposes, the band breaks up. SEVEN year delay.
"Five camera reunion, onstage" - for all the world to see - as that Producer
mentions in "Destiny Rules" - because he knew that Lindsey's solo album
was going to bomb unless he had the rest of Fleetwood Mac to back him up.

1997: "The Dance." One new song, never heard from again.

SIX year delay.

2003: "Say You Will."

FOUR new songs (count carefully.) Cuts back tour drastically after horrible fight with Lindsey over the running order.

So the running total since 1980, of good, quality songs, of the calibre she's capable of - in the last TWENTY FIVE YEARS - has been five. FIVE.
Anyway, it's one way to look about it. I'm not saying that they don't all care
VERY deeply for one another and make great music together, still, but they really have more of a "loose association" now, and have kinda struck out on their own. "Sometimes, to be near you, is to be, unable, to FEEL you (my love...)"

[HomerMcvie]

Cuts back tour drastically after horrible fight with Lindsey over the running order.

Gawd, didn't the SYW Orchestra go on, seemingly, forever? It was, by no one's judgement, a SHORT tour.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Gawd, didn't the SYW Orchestra go on, seemingly, forever? It was, by no one's judgement, a SHORT tour.

Well, I can tell you that in the "Destiny Rules" documentary DVD, Lindsey specifically says that the tour was being cut back. Stevie and Lindsey had a really bad fight over the running order of the album, and Lindsey says in the DVD that Stevie as a result was cutting back the number of shows she was willing to do. In response, he withheld some of his songs from the "Say You Will" album, as he no longer felt it was financially reasonable to "give" them to Fleetwood Mac, given the decreased income from the tour..... They apparently managed to work some things out later on but there is one scene on the DVD, during rehearsal, where Stevie is clearly very angry with Lindsey. "All part of the creative process," of course!


I'm only guessing but I think it's possible that Stevie refused to do a world-wide tour, but instead only one in the U.S. Don't quote me though, I don't know the gory details.

[chiliD]

If Stevie HAD left in 1980, I'm sure Lindsey would've bailed, too.

Which would've been a great scenario for Bob Welch to rejoin the band, since he & the rest of FMac were still getting along then (Bob might've even coerced his then co-guitarist Todd Sharp into the Mac fold, too)...and since at that point, The Motels hadn't hit it big yet and were still just kind of floundering after two really good albums that sold nearly nothing, Welch might've persuaded his Capitol label mate Martha Davis to ditch the Motels project & join Fleetwood Mac, too.

Just imagine, "Take The L", "Mission Of Mercy", "Only The Lonely", "Tragic Surf", "Suddenly Last Summer", "Remember The Nights" all being Fleetwood Mac songs/hits. A front line of C McVie/B Welch/M Davis woulda been awesome! Totally different than the Rumours/Tusk crew, but nearly as strong.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

Uhmm, I realize it's more complex than this and that they all love each other and so on but - - - how's this for an answer? Just for "food for thought."

- - - She did.

1982: Mirage. Songs:

"That's Alright." - I've never heard of it, and I'm a "long-term fan."

"Gypsy." Brilliant, I agree. Maybe even Stevie's best. But Lindsey wrote the guitar solo and produced/arranged most of this, and Stevie really wrote it as more of a solo song to honor Robin anyway, not for Fleetwood Mac.

"Straight Back" - not exactly memorable..

Five year delay. Lindsey has left the band. Stevie's "not too sorry to see him go," to use Mick Fleetwood's phraseology.

"Tango in the Night."

Stevie has three songs, only one of which was a hit, and that was "co-written" with Sandy Stewart.

Three year delay.

1990: "Behind the Mask." Four songs, none of which are hits.

For all intents and purposes, the band breaks up. SEVEN year delay.
"Five camera reunion, onstage" - for all the world to see - as that Producer
mentions in "Destiny Rules" - because he knew that Lindsey's solo album
was going to bomb unless he had the rest of Fleetwood Mac to back him up.

1997: "The Dance." One new song, never heard from again.

SIX year delay.

2003: "Say You Will."

FOUR new songs (count carefully.) Cuts back tour drastically after horrible fight with Lindsey over the running order.

So the running total since 1980, of good, quality songs, of the calibre she's capable of - in the last TWENTY FIVE YEARS - has been five. FIVE.
Anyway, it's one way to look about it. I'm not saying that they don't all care
VERY deeply for one another and make great music together, still, but they really have more of a "loose association" now, and have kinda struck out on their own. "Sometimes, to be near you, is to be, unable, to FEEL you (my love...)"

Gypsy was written before Robin even got sick and it is about STEVIE..

And Stevie did not cut the tour back over the running order...she did 135 dates. That DR doc is edited to Kingdom come to present a certain image of this band.

The Dance? Lindsey didn't even want to DO the Dance.... "you said you wouldnt do this for very long, the applause from it all was so defining"...

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by chiliD

If Stevie HAD left in 1980, I'm sure Lindsey would've bailed, too.

I agree with this, I can't imagine Lindsey would have felt any compulsion to stick around without the assurance of being in a band that was a huge moneymaker. But I can't considered the idea of Bob Welch coming back into the fold. That could have led to some very interesting possibilities!

[ontheEdgeof17]

Originally Posted by Kelly

The Dance? Lindsey didn't even want to DO the Dance.... "you said you wouldnt do this for very long, the applause from it all was so defining"...

Did Stevie say this line was about Lindsey? It sounds more Christine-ish to me.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Gawd, didn't the SYW Orchestra go on, seemingly, forever? It was, by no one's judgement, a SHORT tour.

I believe it was their longest, in the Rumours type incarnation.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

Uhmm, I realize it's more complex than this and that they all love each other and so on but - - - how's this for an answer? Just for "food for thought."

- - - She did.

FOUR new songs (count carefully.) Cuts back tour drastically after horrible fight with Lindsey over the running order.

So the running total since 1980, of good, quality songs, of the calibre she's capable of - in the last TWENTY FIVE YEARS - has been five. FIVE.
Anyway, it's one way to look about it. "

Thats the most narrow minded view I've read yet. Stevie has said on several occasions she always had a dream in the back of her mind that Fleetwood Mac would get back together. She's always wanted to "stay" in Fleetwood Mac. There was no drastic cut back of the Say You Will tour...they toured for the better part of 2 years! durrrr! And as far as the calibre of songs since 1980...thats a pretty poor opinion. Stevie has written some great damn songs "since 1980." Maybe you're not listening hard enough.

[DavidMn]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Gawd, didn't the SYW Orchestra go on, seemingly, forever? It was, by no one's judgement, a SHORT tour.

I'm not sure how many shows you attended, but from what I was able to see, they were unbelieveable for all being in their 50's. I know you love Christine, as do I, but I think her not being there is more of a compliment to how good the remeining members still are, not any kind of a detraction to Chris. At least that's how I view it. Would I prefer that Christine was still there, yes, but they moved on very well in her abscence.

[Ghost_Tracker]

[QUOTE=Kelly]Gypsy was written before Robin even got sick and it is about STEVIE..

And Stevie did not cut the tour back over the running order...she did 135 dates. That DR doc is edited to Kingdom come to present a certain image of this band.

[QUOTE]


I guess I'm confused about Gypsy. Maybe the meaning of it "changed" for her after Robin died. I've seen interviews where she talks about Robin and Gypsy - I think maybe it was on inherownwords.com ... It might be that "shaky memory" of her's creeping in again. . . .

Didn't know about the editing in DR either; but somehow my jaw didn't exactly drop to the floor when I read this.

I still think that if you go back and look at the actual songs she's given to them post-1980 or so, it will seem that maybe she lost a lot of her motivation towards them and (sorta) started "keeping the good stuff to herself." Then again, Lindsey had intended to do the same thing with all his solo albums so maybe fair's fair. Ultimately though, I think everyone, especially S & L, recognized that they needed to be more independent from each other. Stevie needed to grow on her own, and I think a lot of this actually boils down to that.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by ontheEdgeof17

Did Stevie say this line was about Lindsey? It sounds more Christine-ish to me.

I thought so too.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by ReFleetwoodMac

I count two, that you even remotely compliment.

I love ALL of them - but I just simply think that there's a difference in her attitude towards the band, pre-1980 (or so) vs. post-1980. I was a little shocked when I went back and actually looked at the songs though - I received an impression that "the record speaks for itself." What I'm saying is, compare pre-1980 (or so) with the period after that time, and you may agree that there's a PROFOUND difference. Which in my opinion is a separate thing from the love she feels for the members of the band, and the band as a whole. I think a perfect example is "Say You Will" - I would call that song brilliant, fun, upbeat, and "a sure hit" - but Rhiannon it's not (in my opinion).
Meanwhile, throughout the 80s, for example, Stevie was continuing to release what in my opinion is really high-quality, even brilliant stuff. I guess what I'm saying is that in my opinon Fleetwood Mac was tending to get stuff which was "pretty good to REALLY good," whereas as a solo artist she was releasing stuff which was "Really good to STUNNINGLY BRILLIANT." Granted there must be a natural tendency to do that as a solo artist anyway, but it just seems to me that there was a change in her feelings about this after certain things happened, such as their "failure" to support her solo career.