Stevie & Lindsey Intimacy

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But you choose to ignore the fact that Stevie rejected the idea that he loved her and told him he would never love anyone but himself. He loved her, but she wasn't his top priority. She didn't feel loved. It seems to me that she always felt neglected and taken for granted. So, yes she has quotes in which she says he never stopped loving her, but she's also said that he hated her and just plain didn't like her. I don't think she's wrong either time. I think that both things are true and that things switch and flip many times, between two people.

Just saw this part Michele.. Totally agree.

I disagree with you on the lyrics to Dreams tho.. I think they *do* talk about her leaving him.
"You say women they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean you'll know"

To me her interpretation of it being hopeful and all that has been spin. To me hearing those lines it's always come across as .. oh, so you think women are interchangeable? That you can find another? Well, here's your chance, coz when the rain washes you clean (after I'm gone) you'll know that that is NOT how it goes.

But again, as this whole thread has pointed out, be it lyrics or interview quotes or whatever, you hear them/ filter them through your own filter and they mean one thing to you as the listener/reader and might mean something totally different to someone else.

That's the beauty of it.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by brickney723

I never did get any real quotes, sadly. I suppose it's because…. she doesn't have any. She *did* quote me- only... they were made up quotes. So, it's too bad it's like this… there's probably not much point in discussing anything at all if people are on such a power trip that they can't even have an honest conversation. No wonder it's so freaking slow here.

You didn't get any real quotes?? This is not the first time this subject has come up. There was a similar exchange about the whole Stevie and Lindsey thing not 6 weeks ago on The Ledge. Why should I trot out quotes for you when your view is so one-sided?

"Lindsey just plain doesn't like me." Details Magazine, 20 years ago.

"You don't want to sit in the same room, be on a plane after a show, with somebody who hates you. It was not fun." Rolling Stone magazine October 1997.

There's no dearth of quotes from Stevie saying that Lindsey didn't like her. You have presumably read the interviews. She said he doesn't even like the way she laughed.

Lindsey said, "And for Stevie, someone like Don Henley is good for her. It's strange, it's one thing to accept not being with someone and it's another to see them with someone else, especially someone like Don, right? A big star in another group. I could see it coming and I really thought it was going to bum me out, but it was really a good thing just to see her sitting with him. It actually made me happy."

And during the SYW tour when an interviewer asked if he got mad when Don sent Stevie flowers he said he wouldn't even remember something like that.

So, would you believe him or would you believe Stevie's comments about his jealousy over Henley? I don't have to ask.

And the thing is, you don't even realize or, at least, you don't acknowledge the strong bias. You don't realize that the way you slant quotes or the things you choose to believe and not to believe are subjective?

Over the years, Stevie has given a number of different explanations for who Blue Denim was about. I choose to believe the one that said it's about Lindsey, but I am fully aware that that's a choice on my part, because I could just as easily latch on to her quotes saying it's not about him and believe those.

I think they were romancing again during The Dance and that Kristen's pregnancy nipped that in the bud. I think SYW, TISL and UTS all tell the story of that event. I think the lyrics to those songs all support my theory, but I don't think those lyrics are proof of anything, not when I know that the lyrics themselves can be interpreted many different ways. I realize that my interpretation of those lyrics is dependent on my beliefs. I don't shove them at someone as concrete evidence that I'm right.

Lindsey said Come was about Anne Heche and people reject that idea because he's 'covering up' the fact that it's about Stevie. But I've read Anne Heche's comments about her delusions and mental breakdown. I've read about the period where she had an alter ego named Celestia and she thought she was God and so I clearly think of Anne Heche when I hear Come and Miranda, even though I realize that some people definitely think the "harmony" lyrics just have to be about Stevie.

There are enough contradictions out there that anyone can believe what they want to believe and there's no monopoly on "truth."

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

I disagree with you on the lyrics to Dreams tho.. I think they *do* talk about her leaving him.
"You say women they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean you'll know"

To me her interpretation of it being hopeful and all that has been spin.

I agree that it's not a hopeful song at all. I think the heartbeat driving you mad as you remember what you had and what you lost is just as "bitter" as Go Your Own Way.

But I think the whole "you say you want your freedom" indicates it's a woman talking about a man who wants out of the relationship so that he can play the field and the whole "players only love you when they're playing" goes into that. It's like Silver Springs. That also sounds like the man left the woman. I think these songs are inspired by Stevie and Lindsey but not a literal reflection of what really transpired in their relationship.

Of course, I think the relationship had a lot of different breaks and endings, so it wasn't always the same person leaving.

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I agree that it's not a hopeful song at all. I think the heartbeat driving you mad as you remember what you had and what you lost is just as "bitter" as Go Your Own Way.

But I think the whole "you say you want your freedom" indicates it's a woman talking about a man who wants out of the relationship so that he can play the field and the whole "players only love you when they're playing" goes into that. It's like Silver Springs. That also sounds like the man left the woman. I think these songs are inspired by Stevie and Lindsey but not a literal reflection of what really transpired in their relationship.

Of course, I think the relationship had a lot of different breaks and endings, so it wasn't always the same person leaving.

Michele

Where are your quotes to back this up??

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I think they were romancing again during The Dance and that Kristen's pregnancy nipped that in the bud.

I think they were too, but... it's funny how we as fans see this. Kristen's pregnancy didn't just 'happen', Lindsey clearly wooed her and slept with her and *got* her pregnant... so... and this has just crystallized for me reading all these posts... what does that tell us about him? I don't get the sense he and Stevie were sleeping together necessarily, but on some level he was double-dipping here (emotionally or whatever). Very interesting... (said with my best Artie Johnson accent)

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

I think they were too, but... it's funny how we as fans see this. Kristen's pregnancy didn't just 'happen', Lindsey clearly wooed her and slept with her and *got* her pregnant... so... and this has just crystallized for me reading all these posts... what does that tell us about him? I don't get the sense he and Stevie were sleeping together necessarily, but on some level he was double-dipping here (emotionally or whatever). Very interesting... (said with my best Artie Johnson accent)

I think he was and that Stevie felt a little betrayed, which is how I interpret both Thrown Down and Fall From Grace.

And I think that in a way they like the idea of romance as much as some of their fans do. They like the idea, but not the reality of it enough to commit to it. Monogamously.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

But be careful how you interpret this. It was all for her in a good way, but also in a bad way. He's talked about this. When love turns to hate, as it did off and on for both of them, you *don't* want the other person to succeed, you *don't* want the best for them... and you might even relish their missteps. Lindsey has been honest enough to say that a lot of times they were competitive with each other... he wanted his solo career to be "better" than hers, or whatever. They like to push each other's buttons. They can be mean to each other, and they have been. He's said in recent years sometimes the (career) things he's done were motivated by this need to compete with her. (If I had the time to dig it out I would). And she certainly had some degree of motivation in her solo career to prove that her music was *not* all due to his arranging and producing, that she could be successful without him. So while I think on some level each has always loved the other, they have also really wanted to "stick it to" the other (in the bad way lol). And he admits this now-- sometimes he pursued things just to "show her", whatever that meant at the time. I think the greatest growth for them both has been to let a lot of that go. To accept that they are good at different things and successful in different ways and they don't need to compete. They've loved each other but they have also had moments where each has wanted the other to fail or to hurt or whatever.

agree. i tried to say something similar in the past when interpretation of "it was all for you" was discussed, but i could never say it as eloquently.

Maybe I’ve wasted all this precious time
Trying to prove what is and isn’t mine
Wondering to myself if you knew
It was all for you

these lyrics, together with what you said above, his Tusk songs, his complaining about not being given enough credit (producer or whatever) for Rumours, and even her IYD doc where she makes a point how she can be in control in the studio, all seem to hark back to their competitiveness and proving something to each other (and the world).

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

And I think that in a way they like the idea of romance as much as some of their fans do. They like the idea, but not the reality of it enough to commit to it. Monogamously.

Michele

well, it has to be kinda cool to always be mentioned as one of the greatest [tragic] couples of rock'n'roll.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

these lyrics, together with what you said above, his Tusk songs, his complaining about not being given enough credit (producer or whatever) for Rumours, and even her IYD doc where she makes a point how she can be in control in the studio, all seem to hark back to their competitiveness and proving something to each other (and the world).

Yes, even when he talked about them being excellent lovers, he mentioned the competitiveness and she always has too.

"Stevie and I, even when we were lovers, were never really best friends. We used to compete with each other back then. I mean we've always competed, probably ever since we started going together back in '71. There was always that tension there even though we were excellent lovers, we were competitors as well."

And that spirit of rivalry made the relationship more passionate, I'm sure. But probably didn't provide either with the comfort or support you want from the person you're going to spend your entire life with, off the stage.

Michele

[elle]

on the other hand, i do think the overall sentiment of It Takes Time is not focusing on this competitiveness but wanting to finally outgrow it, coming full circle (), basically what you said below:

Originally Posted by michelej1

In fact, I think that's what Lindsey has wanted to preserve since the SYW album started. It's like, I've known her since I was 16, we should be able to get along. And that he's wanted the need to argue with and hurt each other with words to finally stop. Just because this is not the person you're sleeping with or could have built a home and a family with does not mean they're not your partner. And it's possible to have that partnership and rejoice in it and have outgrown the yearning for something else.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by elle

on the other hand, i do think the overall sentiment of It Takes Time is not focusing on this competitiveness but wanting to finally outgrow it, coming full circle (),

yep, totally agree. now that he's got a full personal life that's not connected to the band, or Stevie, they can focus on the work, the musical partnership and letting all the old toxic sh*t go.

[nicole21290]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't think "no" is what she always thinks. She's expressly said as much. Oh Stevie you made a terrible mistake.

Michele

For sure. And yet she always speaks about having no regrets and so on. This is why I have trouble with just selecting quotes and putting them here to support a theory. Not only do they change what they say based on their audience, their memories failing, their mood, their current relationship, how much time has passed, but they also stretch the truth or outright lie at times.

That interview continues to fascinate me, however, both what's said and what's implied.

“Now, on the road, we’ve had many really good talks,” he says. “We’ve known each other most of our lives and yet we’re still trying to figure out what’s going on. Obviously, a lot of love as a subtext. But where is that love? How do we get in touch with any of that? For all of us, the decisions we make now are going to determine how we are as people until we die. Stevie and I are trying to look at it...with care.” He grunts a laugh. “It’s significant that someone can end up, you know.... not having killed you!”

“Now I just adore him,” says Nicks, with ravishing candour. “He is my love. My first love and my love for all time. But we can’t ever be together. He has a lovely wife, Kristen, who I really like, and they are expecting their third child. The way he is with his children just knocks me out. I look at him now and just go, Oh, Stevie, you made a mistake!”

She leans forward. “But when we go on-stage together we are able to experience our love affair again - and again and again! For two and a half hours, four times a week...There isn’t really anybody in my life - it wouldn’t be good for me now anyway, I’m always away. But when hard times come over the next 20 or 30 years, when people we love die, he’ll be the first person I’ll call. Knowing that now, I think he has been able to let go of all the nasty things that happened and realise that, like I said to him, Lindsey, you’ll always have me. I’m always a phone call away. So you get it all.”

“It’s a forever story with those two,” grins Fleetwood. “As it is with all of us.”

Originally Posted by michelej1

But you choose to ignore the fact that Stevie rejected the idea that he loved her and told him he would never love anyone but himself. He loved her, but she wasn't his top priority. She didn't feel loved. It seems to me that she always felt neglected and taken for granted. So, yes she has quotes in which she says he never stopped loving her, but she's also said that he hated her and just plain didn't like her. I don't think she's wrong either time. I think that both things are true and that things switch and flip many times, between two people.

And this is where context, hindsight, purpose of interview, and memory come into play. There's a real lack of consistency and real contradiction in what's said so it can be difficult to find the 'truth'. In their lies and in their 'truths'. Often one ends up having to go to a 'well, based on what I know of his/her character, I THINK' kind of angle, which is never conclusive, of course. Which is fine. I tend to be more interested in how they are NOW rather than what went down in the past anyway, to be honest.

I Hate That I Love You does come into play at times with those two, I think.

We tangle a lot, but we love each other - we'll always love each other. He and I will never get away from the fact that we were as one for so many years. (1982)

"You know, I was thinking about it a couple of days ago, Lindsey is probably the man who loved me the most in my life. So when I die I will remember that: that of all the men in my life Lindsey, absolutely, bar none, was the man who loved me the most." (2008)

"It's like Lindsey and me: no matter how many children or grandchildren you have, Lindsey, I'm always gonna be there. Lindsey has these three marvellous children, and that has given him unconditional love, which is what he always wanted. I couldn't give him that. But I know a lot of Lindsey's songs are about me, because a lot of my songs are about him. I call us 'our Miserable Muses'. In a band like Fleetwood Mac, you have arguments, and it makes for great art." She's warming to her theme, the slightest smile playing about her lips. "So is he sorry that our relationship broke up in 1976? Yes. And if he had to do it all over, would he not move to LA, and maybe try to find our record deal in San Francisco? Yes. Because we both believe that we might still be together. Probably not, but it's possible .... When we're together, and people see the two of us walking towards them, we are a force of nature. Absolutely." (2011)

Originally Posted by michelej1

I like the song lyrics too. Always have and I have always read Stevie and Lindsey song lyrics in relationship to one another. But I don't see lyrics as necessarily proving anything. First of all, people use artistic license in song lyrics. That's why Stevie says she left Lindsey, but Dreams seems to say the opposite: that he left her. You sprinkle in some real life, but ultimately you make a good song. Secondly, songs don't have to be about the type of love you're fantasizing about.

Yeah, it's a dialogue. Also, with Stevie, she can use more than one poem for one song, thus conflating events and messages and so on. Lyrics don't necessarily prove anything but they do work for insofar as consistent themes and messages and tone, I believe, in this case. The 'leaving' issues is a funny one - because she left but she also things he basically forced her to leave because of how things were. I don't think Dreams said he left, though. I mean, there was no 'this is it; it's over' anyway - they both might have said it but that's not how it worked up. They broke up in 1976, or she saw it coming to an end in August 1977, or they finally ended in 1987 when he LEFT, or she knew it was over when Lindsey's first child was born, or "who Lindsey and I are to each other will never change" and "there will always be something going on between you and me". She still calls him her 'other half' and leaves it to editors to add PROFESSIONALLY, for goodness' sake.

Originally Posted by michelej1

For instance, Stevie says maybe she worked so hard and so long just to watch you walk out that door and I really think it's the same message that was in Smile At You, written so much earlier. Go on, leave the key here. Save yourself. I think she actually thinks in a way that she has done all she has done just so Lindsey can have the family life he now has. The family life that doesn't include her. I think she thinks she saved him. By the same token, when he says "I did it all for you" he can very well mean it, but not in the "I did it all for you because I wish that we were married and had children of our own" sense.

She may think that and then she goes and basically undermines any emotional significance to his relationship with Kristen at other moments. When ARE you going to tell his wife that you'll both be going back to San Jose? That when one of the two of you dies, the other will be on the bed alone? So far as family goes, she might not be included in that family life (even if we have amusing quotes from 2003 about SnL being able to hang out now, and Stevie being friends with Kristen), but they remain family to each other. And besides, she "insists" on being part of Leelee's life because she feels like she's hers as well, and, as of 2013 in reference to the children, "I get them too".

Love runs deeper from a broken home
Black angel can't stand to be alone

The 'saving' idea is actually a consistent theme for both of them, though Stevie is generally in the place of wanting/needing to be saved, or cared for and protected (when Lindsey writes). I don't actually always think it's so clear-cut as 'Lindsey says 'save me' in the song so HE wants to be saved'; sometimes they both include conversation/dialogue within the song and it's someone else speaking, or they're addressing themselves.

L: Save me a place / I'll come running if you love me today
S: And not all the prayers in the world / Could save us
S: Love somebody / Save their soul
S: Save their lifestyle if you feel it / Don't try to change them
S: Go on, save yourself / Leave the key here
L: Hold me darlin’, don’t let go / Save each other from a world of woe
L: Save me / It's gone too far
S: It could come straight, straight from my heart / Nothing can be saved here
S: To be brave save the stranger / Sable on blond...
S: I can save you / Don't cry baby, I can save you
S: You'd like to save her / But you just can't give it up
S (S. Crow): You were master of so many / But savior to none
S: And it's not enough that you say you love me / It's not enough to just save face
S: You saved my life / I won’t forget it
S: Tonight there are no saviors
S: Ooh...up against the wall, baby / Well, I can't save you this time
S: If that woman could make you crazy / Did she call out, did she say, "Please save me"
S: Love, please save me / Don't let me be blind
S: Try, you can try again / Somebody save me from myself
S: Say goodbye, baby / Well, there isn't time / And you can't save me / Don't try to save me
S: Well, I told you what to do with your life / But you could not save me / I told you what to do with your life / But you did not save me
L: Slow down, baby / Cross that line / If you want to save me / It takes time

As for 'it was all for you', yes, it can be interpreted a few ways, I guess. It's just the idea of nakedly saying 'ALL for YOU' that warms me. But yes, he said this about it: "if you go back to that song “It Takes Time” and thinking maybe about times in the past when maybe I could have shown her a little more love or shown her a way to make her process a bit easier." One thing that sometimes isn't taken into account is the way an artist will focus on a small portion of lyrics and happily explain THOSE while neglecting to explain the majority of the song, which often contains the lyrics I WOULD want explained... I also like the callbacks in ITT to both Show You How and In Our Own Time, to be honest.

Originally Posted by michelej1

When Stevie told Courtney that Lindsey was her musical love, I think she was accurate. I think the music has given them a lasting relationship that would have ended a long time ago, had they not been in this band together. If BN had been a hit, then that music would have kept them together, but I don't know if BN would have had the staying power that FM has had. But if there was no music, then I don't think there would have been any couple for very long. 1975 could have been the end of something instead of the beginning.

The problem is I don't think it IS just a musical love. She's also said he was her romantic love (when she wasn't busy saying it was Joe, lol). The thing with music for them, though, is music is a way of expression, their life, a prism through which they show and understand, and is integral to who they are are people. Music is both what brought them together and keeps them together but without music, there is no them, it's not just there is not relationship.

Originally Posted by michelej1

But this musical love, this level of communication, I guess it's frustrating at times, because if there's no music, then how else can you relate? I think that with Stevie and Lindsey and the FM members in general, you have this great love, but no real way of expressing it, except when you're creating music. And they feel "I've shared so much with this person, how is it that we can have nothing to talk about, if it's not a demo?"

They seem to be able to talk, even about things other than demos, lol. And not just discussing what sports and hobbies Lindsey has to drive the children to. They have a shared life, shared memories, that probably provide plenty of conversation.

“And I said to him: ‘I believe that you and I need to remember who we were when we were 16 and 17 years old. We need to remember that we were really good friends before we ever had a date. We need to remember how much we respected each other, how much fun we had – and how much fun we can have when we’re both in good spirits. And we need to take that power couple on to the stage."

"Well, we had a great four days. I went up to Lindsey's house and we, I put some vocals on two songs and then we recorded another song. And actually sat around and told stories to my assistant and laughed and cried and had to be focused back in to do the recording that we were doing because we can, we are best storytellers. Especially if someone doesn't know all the stories, we are the greatest. And we can just sit and tell you stories for days."

"A lot of times it's just me and Lindsey [Buckingham]. You know, we have a lot of the same problems that we've always had, which is our egos. And we've had a lot of fights. But we spend hours talking -- we're like a bunch of girls sometimes. We'll be putting a guitar part on, and all of a sudden we'll be talking about something that happened on the Tusk tour, and two hours later we're still talking about it."

Originally Posted by michelej1

In fact, I think that's what Lindsey has wanted to preserve since the SYW album started. It's like, I've known her since I was 16, we should be able to get along. And that he's wanted the need to argue with and hurt each other with words to finally stop. Just because this is not the person you're sleeping with or could have built a home and a family with does not mean they're not your partner. And it's possible to have that partnership and rejoice in it and have outgrown the yearning for something else.

Certainly, he's said multiple times since SYW things along those lines. There were a few interviews just before Unleashed where he was also very heavily focused on HER - building that relationship seemed to be paramount in touring. I think partnership is a good phrase for it. And I agree and think they are able to rejoice in it and enjoy it more now. I mean, they had THE TALK for a reason - she didn't want to go onstage unless they could embrace who they had been, a cute, compassionate, loving power couple. I don't think they've outgrown yearning for something more than a partnership though, particularly from Lindsey's side. His songs are still filled with a yearning for more, a need to touch and connect, a need to protect and care for. There's also a lot of lies/truth, right/wrong, underground, crossing of lines, underground business, crimes, royalty, clues, fires, rooms, oceans and seas, and dreams to contend with, lol.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

on the other hand, i do think the overall sentiment of It Takes Time is not focusing on this competitiveness but wanting to finally outgrow it, coming full circle (), basically what you said below:

And I think of the Dance when Lindsey kept saying, "it used to be bittersweet, now it's just sweet" By 1997, they had evolved a lot from just three years earlier in 1994 when Stevie said, "I haven't talked to him since the inauguration. We're really not friends. We're really not anything. We did not break up friends, and we have never been friends since. He is not really able to have any kind of a relationship with me. I just bug him to death. Everything I do is abrasive to him."

Then after the SYW tour ended acrimoniously, I remember thinking. It used to be bittersweet, then it was just sweet and now it's just bitter.

But, despite some flare ups, I think they both have it in their heads now that life is a lot shorter now than it used to be and they don't want to end up being on the outs with each other in the end. They don't want to let barriers fester for years any more as they have in the past.

Michele

[nicole21290]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

yep, totally agree. now that he's got a full personal life that's not connected to the band, or Stevie, they can focus on the work, the musical partnership and letting all the old toxic sh*t go.

His full, contented, inspirational personal life IS still connected to Stevie, though. As he said in Vegas 'many' of his songs are about her. He's not, when talking about her, focused purely on the work and musical partnership. His songs and interviews don't consistently speak of that door being closed in terms of a personal relationship not based solely on work and past memories.

Look, disregarding all of what he has publicly said about his songs and what/who they're about in recent years, there is far too much yearning, 'past' and use of certain words/phrases easily linked to Stevie for me to think his personal life is entirely unconnected to her. I think even songs that he chooses to cover are VERY important in terms of this. For all his talk of having 'our own lives' and having boundaries, I dunno. The music perhaps plays a role in being able to maintain those boundaries in that it's an outlet for feelings and emotions that can't be expressed other ways anymore if they're playing by the rules.

"You know, she has an album out as well and we spent a good deal of time together, more time than we'd spent together in quite a while. And, you know, I think we both realised that there are still chapters yet to be written in the Stevie and Lindsey book and, after all of this time, I think that's pretty extraordinary that there's still, that we're still working on our ****." (2011)

"We've been through things together that, you know, very few people have gone through. But, you know, there is also what I would define as a healthy distance at this point and yet there is this sort of undercurrent of a lot of things - nostalgia and, and, uh, a kind of, uh, and a love, and you would think - It's odd because on some strange level I think we're still working on it. It doesn't seem possible after all these years but I think on some level we are. And that's sweet." (2013)

"We are still discovering things about each other. We are still getting back to things that we once had. We can start to address some of the love that's always been there and some of the things that we have shared." (2013)

In the late of the evening with the cold in my eyes
I'm a madman out on a bad man route looking for paradise...
Resurrection will come apparition will go
And the shadow singer will stand and linger in places no one ever goes

I hear your heart as you pass through
I know the pain that you feel; I'll shepherd you...
Lay your head down; no one will see
Cry me a river of new dreams; float yourself free

Mirror, mirror in the sky / Won't you look what's happening here below
No one knows what's going on / Can you give us a sign where to go *

Magic one / All our dreams are done / I have no faith today...
Hearts will break / With choices we must make / So sleep and dream of me

Oh, you and I we sure can dream / Of conversations that might have been...
And even after all these years / I can't even see you clear

We never took quite enough chances / We never had quite enough time
I did about a thousand dances / But nothing would change your mind

If we forgive ourselves we might be whole
But you know that wishing, wishing won't make it so

The currents they caught her / Hiding in my room
Mirrors in her eyes / She was wet she was soaking
Ashes in the ocean / And her heart was broken

Every bone has been broken / Rumours all lost at sea
Every word every language has been spoken / Someone's got to set you free...
Suicide days, suicide suicide nights / In a wheelchair almost blind
Someone's going to have to pay the price / Someone's got to change your mind

In the shadow moon / Steel tears I cried
You were out of tune / It seemed to suit my dark side...
Love runs deeper from the underground / Love runs deeper from a broken home
Black angel can't be alone

Fighting for a cause I can't remember any more
Well I guess you could say that I was framed...
I changed my name / I went insane
Still I can't complain

I'm a little lost let me find my way / I'm a little dead let me live...
Come along lay down and talk to me / Tell me all your fear will allow
It doesn't matter who we thought we were / We ain't got time for that now

I go to my lover we lay on our bed
Did I sell my heart for the dreams in my head?

I walked around under moonlit skies / All alone going home hoping to fly
Face down in the ocean always gasping for air / Saw your face full of grace trying not to care...
I walk empty halls wondering what is true / Behind the garden walls I search for you
Deep down in the ocean deep down in the sea / Saw your face full of grace searching for me

Had a dream that you reached for me in the night / Touched me soft and slow
Everything was wrong but everything was right / Oh, the seeds we sow

Fire still burning, in a while she'll make it rain
These rooms are all falling down, they couldn't stand the strain
And the same old dream, she was hiding outside my door
She used to come from time to time but not any more

This time I think she's here for good but I never really know
Nothing here remains, just a vision of her face
The implications of a crime, it always takes the place...
Still in my mind

I've got a bad reputation / And you have something to hide
Ooh, such a strange sensation / When you finally open up your eyes

I lie alone and watch you sleep / I'd reach for you but I might weep
If you should tell me I must keep / Away, away, away...
I'd like to take your pain away / Away, away, away
Behind your shade the colors fade / Away, away, away

Sometimes we fantasise / Wondering if we could've tried
Wondering if we died / Wondering if the stars are crazy...
I wake up in the middle of the night / With you in my heart / With you in my heart
I can't touch you any more / It causes you harm *

For your love, I must be on time / Wait for hours alone by your shrine
Your bark is worse than my bite...
I see clues that you leave behind / White or blue, I know it can't be mine
I want to look for what I might find

Freedom is someone to know / There is no right or wrong anymore...
I keep walking on this heart of mine / I could go crazy without even trying
Fleeing the scene of the crime

No, I have no reputation / And I'm not on any list
That's because I've got a publicist / Who covers up the avarice of where I put my fist

And the love you know has come to an end / And the silence answers your call
Save me / It's gone too far / It's gone too far
When you're waiting for your ocean to rise / All alone at night long after I've gone
And your conversations all end in lies / And you wake up singing one of my songs

When we get to the other side /Maybe then we'll make amends...
Swing low sweet chariot / Give us back our youth
When they finally come to bury us / Maybe then we'll tell the truth

All those who love her / They look on in pain...
A thousand years / With no place to go / How will we get along?
A thousand pains / That raven never shows...
Promises, promises / Already planned / Innocence dies

Every night, every day / In this house filled with shame...
There's no truth in my life / There's no light in my eyes
And it's all I guess / That I'll ever miss

Why do you come around / So very much
You know it just brings you down / It's just something you can touch...
Anyone at all / Could see what was missin'
Could see you were dyin' / But no one was cryin'

But there's only one brush we need / It's the one that never leaves a trace

All alone we go on day after day / All alone we suffer ...
And the lie was creeping / Down, down, down
While we were sleeping / Suddenly we hit the ground

And once again she calls to me / Then she vanishes in thin air...
Somebody's got to see this through / All the world is laughing at you
And somebody's got to sacrifice / If this whole thing's gonna turn out right

And the price that we paid / For a love we couldn't hold...
I let you slip away / There was nothing I could do
That was so long ago, yeah / Still I often think of you
I fall down, I get up / And I've always had to fight
Everything that was wrong / For the things that were right

My eyes were consumed / By the silence in the room
Your dreams would not wake / From the words that we break...
My eyes saw the words / With a prayer and a curse
Your pain had to sleep / With a sword that it keeps

Maybe I've just been holding out too long / Maybe I couldn't admit I was wrong
And maybe I've just been lying to myself...
Maybe I've wasted all this precious time / Trying to prove what is and isn't mine...
If you want to save me / It takes time

I had another dream about you last night / Sailing on a sea of blue
You were grieving for someone else / I was grieving for you...
From the window I heard your voice / Telling me you were through

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by nicole21290

And this is where context, hindsight, purpose of interview, and memory come into play. There's a real lack of consistency and real contradiction in what's said so it can be difficult to find the 'truth'. In their lies and in their 'truths'.

I think people reveal the truth in their lies. So, the things they choose to lie about are actually very instructive and important. However, no two people are going to agree on what is the lie and what the truth is.

Originally Posted by nicole21290

I tend to be more interested in how they are NOW rather than what went down in the past anyway, to be honest.

But I see them as inextricable. I think people revert to their past behaviors often. You can go awhile without it happening, but like a rubber band, the past only lets you go so far before it snaps you right back and old hurts, old attitudes and old anger start cropping up again. I think this last tour went extremely well for the most part, but I wouldn't be surprised if their relationship takes two steps back now.

As for songs, I think those like Sara and Tusk are about several things and people. Don gets a verse. Mick. Jess. OJ. I think there are many songs that are amorphous like that. But I also think there are songs that are about two people. I consider, Show You How, for instance, as one of those. I think it's about Stevie, but I think it's about Kristen too. I think Stevie is the shadow singer, for sure, but I don't think of her as also the one who shows him what it's all about when the lights go out. I see him as thanking Kristen for showing him that there's a life beyond the stage curtain. So, I see the song as being both about an addiction to Stevie, deep, lingering in places where no one ever goes. But I think it's also about realizing a world after that and being pulled out of the abyss, away from the spectre.

Originally Posted by nicole21290

The 'saving' idea is actually a consistent theme for both of them, though

The saving idea is a martyr's fantasy. I mean, I'd like to know how often he was really like the protagonist in Under the Skin. Probably, not as frequently as he'd like to think. Or someone's got to sacrifice if the thing is going to turn out right. It's a theme repeated, but how often are sacrifices really made?

But yes, I think they both put themselves in the role of savior more often than they deserve to be. As for Lindsey wanting to be saved, sure. In fact, I see lines like "I fall down I get up" or "we fall down, we get up" as a wish for resiliency in relationships that was too often lacking. Let's push through this breach. Let's take a drink from the loving cup and mend the friction. I think it's another way of saying "save us."

With Gone Too Far, he says "save me" but the words of the chorus seem to contradict the verses and it's a confusing use of pronouns. I don't think he's asking for help, so much as saying "I want to be spared from watching your pain, when you're alone and lost -- and missing me."

As you said, it's sometimes someone else speaking or two people speaking and it's not clear which one is talking, from line to line.

So, I don't really see Gone Too Far as a "save" song. But "Someone's got to set you free" or "Deep Down There is Freedom" or "I'll come back to get you," yes, I see those as all saying, at the end of this, I'll rescue you.

Originally Posted by nicole21290

The problem is I don't think it IS just a musical love. She's also said he was her romantic love (when she wasn't busy saying it was Joe, lol). The thing with music for them, though, is music is a way of expression, their life, a prism through which they show and understand, and is integral to who they are are people.

But I think communicating through music, loving through music is a trap or a crutch, because it kept them from relating in more fundamental ways that are necessary for the mundane, domestic necessities of life.

I always imagine the conversation, "Well, I'm going home on the bus. You have the car, so you take Ginny," as being more of the planning as a team that they should have been doing and if they had, one of them wouldn't have always have been blowing up, slamming the door and running out. That kind of 'you do this and I'll do that and we'll acommplish X' is something that they don't seem to have worked out very well in all these decades. Instead, they call their managers and write songs about it. The musical love hampers and strangled the other, because it became the default mode of communication.

Originally Posted by nicole21290

They seem to be able to talk, even about things other than demos, lol. And not just discussing what sports and hobbies Lindsey has to drive the children to. They have a shared life, shared memories, that probably provide plenty of conversation.

Sure, Lindsey has said that he's shared more with FM than he has his blood family, so they have those roots. And Stevie said when something bad happens (like a family death or something) she calls Lindsey on the phone and gets emotional upon hearing his voice because they've known each other for so long. She'll say something like she was the one who answered the phone and had to hand it to him, when they called to say his father died.

And they haven't mentioned his brother's death, but I feel it must have played a part in his Behind The Mask appearances. I think the band must have called him when it happened and lo and behold he shows up on stage in December. I see a relationship between those things. I think they've shared a great amount. I just don't think they have much in common.

To me, even in Stevie's re-creation of her Rhiannon conversation with Lindsey "isn't that a pretty name? Yes Stevie, it is a pretty name," that Lindsey is thinking to himself, "what in the devil?" I mean, that's not even the real Lindsey. It's Stevie's impersonation of Lindsey and I don't think even the impersonation is that interested in her whimsy.

On the other hand, when they did Soldier's Angel together, I kind of fantasize that they had discussions about politics and probably agreed. So, I think they can relate on some level about things outside of music. I just don't think they can share as much as she did with Dave Stewart. And even though she was with Dave to record an album, the daily dinners she described, the dressing up, the parties, even the theatrical way they posed in all of those pictures together (pictures I did not want Dave in) revealed two people who mesh psychologically. I don't think she has that with Lindsey, although she does with Mick. Of course, she and Dave can't create what she and Lindsey did, in my book, but I think they could have a marriage.

And when Lindsey had Stevie over to his house and showed her his family, I think he wanted to kind of give her the fun she had talked about having with Dave, but it's not going to be the same, precisely because I do think she looks at Lindsey's children as hers, potentially and with the pleasure of being around them that she takes in all kids, especially girls, comes a little pain when his daughters are involved.

I was at the concert when she announced Stella's birth after their break. And she was about to say "we" had a baby, but she changed it and I thought it was adorable -- and a little heart-tugging.

Michele