Stevie & Lindsey Intimacy

[brickney723]

Originally Posted by michelej1

And as far as the quotes go, the thing is you can always select the quotes you want. There are dozens more that would lead to an entirely opposite conclusion, so I don't think they leave an objective record for anyone to follow. Just the opposite.

I think anyone truly interested will have to read everything that's out there and come to their own conclusion. Michele

Oh yes, I know I said I'm not open-minded, but seriously… please, please, please give me those quotes in opposition! And I'll read everything surrounding them. I have read everything, as far as I know, but it's possible I've missed something! It's so much better than the I think… I gather… which of course, we all do. But I really don't have a dog in the fight- I don't care at all if he loved her or to what extent, or what he feels now, etc.. it's just the evidence has been soooo overwhelming… and so much so that it's like one of the greatest love stories of all time. And also the music- how can you understand the music if you don't understand the heart, you know? So, I want to know everything. Not just what fits into where all the evidence has led me so far. I have no ego, and I have no problem being proven wrong- with evidence. Basically, with these guys we've got: quotes, music lyrics, body language to go by- and that's about it. But I feel I read Lindsey sooo easily- it's like his heart is an open book, I understand not everyone sees what I see. I can tell so much just by looking at him- and well, you know what I've seen so far.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by nicole21290

He's considered the possibility at least, thought MAYBE, even if he doesn't go the whole hog and doesn't think they probably would've made it personally AND professionally as Stevie has said he's said.

But I don't think you can separate personal from professional, because one pulls apart the other. He could have made money touring. Once Waddy got him in, he could have always found work, but I think he knows his relationship with Stevie wasn't going to last if he kept doing that, leaving her at home while he was on the road. He needed to find a way to make money that would include her. That's why I think he wonders if BN had a brighter future.

Originally Posted by nicole21290

When your reason for saying ‘no, I never wished that happened’ is that you never go against destiny (rather than ‘it would never have worked’, ‘we’re incompatible’, ‘i don’t/didn’t love him’, ‘i like how my life turned out much better’), consider me not entirely convinced of that ‘no’ being what you always think.

I don't think "no" is what she always thinks. She's expressly said as much. Oh Stevie you made a terrible mistake.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by brickney723

Oh yes, I know I said I'm not open-minded, but seriously… please, please, please give me those quotes in opposition! And I'll read everything surrounding them. I have read everything, as far as I know, but it's possible I've missed something! It's so much better than the I think… I gather… which of course, we all do. But I really don't have a dog in the fight-

See, I don't believe that you don't have a dog. And I can understand you to an extent. I ship, most especially in the nineties and then when TISL and UTS were released, but I think the bigger picture changes the small one.

Michele

[brickney723]

Originally Posted by michelej1

See, I don't believe that you don't have a dog. And I can understand you to an extent. I ship, most especially in the nineties and then when TISL and UTS were released, but I think the bigger picture changes the small one.

Michele

I don't! I'm all about truth! I mean, I can't say it isn't fascinating- and therefore not enjoyable- because it is! But it's only because I've been led to this point by facts. Prove me wrong- bring it! Seriously! :wavy:

And let me just edit this to say- the timeline I'm always thinking about in terms of what a great tragic romantic thing it really was is the 1977-1987 years- because I feel I have the most information from that time- maybe because they've been more honest about things as the years have gone by- with time and distance. We certainly got more information from LB on his feelings from that time period as the years went by. Although you can see it in the lyrics and you can definitely hear it live back then.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by brickney723

I don't! I'm all about truth! I mean, I can't say it isn't fascinating- and therefore not enjoyable- because it is! But it's only because I've been led to this point by facts. Prove me wrong-.

But I don't think you have facts. That's the point. Your "fact" is my fantasy.

Which is why we're going to disagree, no matter what.

Michele

[brickney723]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But I don't think you have facts. That's the point. Your "fact" is my fantasy.

Which is why we're going to disagree, no matter what.

Michele

Okay, so in my opinion, not having been in the room with these people, quotes from the actual parties involved is the closest any of us is ever going to get to facts.

[brickney723]

Originally Posted by nicole21290 View Post
I like Lindsey's very emotional declaration in It Takes Time: "It was all for you."

^^ Like, am I tripping or did he actually say this? And if you say it's just my fantasy and it's not so, are you being honest?

I just like truth.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by brickney723

Okay, so in my opinion, not having been in the room with these people, quotes from the actual parties involved is the closest any of us is ever going to get to facts.

Quotes spun in a way that get you just where you want to be already are not facts. You likened this to politics and it is. People always twist anything to fit their political bias, even when a statement is just the opposite of their chosen agenda.

It's like the comment in Mick's book where he heard Stevie say, "you'll never love anyone but yourself."

To you that means that Lindsey told Stevie he loved her. Even though Mick never heard that part. You imply it from Stevie's response that Mick says he did hear. Good sleuthing on your part. So, this contributes to your notion that Lindsey never stopped loving Stevie. Fine, I don't think you stop loving people you've been through that much with anyway.

But you choose to ignore the fact that Stevie rejected the idea that he loved her and told him he would never love anyone but himself. He loved her, but she wasn't his top priority. She didn't feel loved. It seems to me that she always felt neglected and taken for granted. So, yes she has quotes in which she says he never stopped loving her, but she's also said that he hated her and just plain didn't like her. I don't think she's wrong either time. I think that both things are true and that things switch and flip many times, between two people.

You choose to focus on just one set of quotes and to explain away the other by saying, "Lindsey just wasn't being honest about his feelings." Or "he just loved her so much that he pushed her away, because it hurt not to have her." Which are great interpretations, but they aren't facts and every quote you get is going to fit into your set interpretation -- even when it doesn't on its face.

I was just reading Myrna Loy again after Shirley Temple's death and she was saying that people wondered why she and William Powell never got together romantically and she said that they were never at the same place at the same time. When she could have fallen for him, he was in love with Jean Harlow. When he was flirting with her, she was happily married. It reminded me of Stevie and Lindsey and you only want me when I get over you.

I think a lot about SnL and enjoy them very much as a couple. But I don't see them as you do.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by brickney723

Originally Posted by nicole21290 View Post
I like Lindsey's very emotional declaration in It Takes Time: "It was all for you."

^^ Like, am I tripping or did he actually say this? And if you say it's just my fantasy and it's not so, are you being honest?

I just like truth.

You just like your truth. The fact that your "facts" are song lyrics kind of proves my point.

I like the song lyrics too. Always have and I have always read Stevie and Lindsey song lyrics in relationship to one another. But I don't see lyrics as necessarily proving anything. First of all, people use artistic license in song lyrics. That's why Stevie says she left Lindsey, but Dreams seems to say the opposite: that he left her. You sprinkle in some real life, but ultimately you make a good song. Secondly, songs don't have to be about the type of love you're fantasizing about.

For instance, Stevie says maybe she worked so hard and so long just to watch you walk out that door and I really think it's the same message that was in Smile At You, written so much earlier. Go on, leave the key here. Save yourself. I think she actually thinks in a way that she has done all she has done just so Lindsey can have the family life he now has. The family life that doesn't include her. I think she thinks she saved him. By the same token, when he says "I did it all for you" he can very well mean it, but not in the "I did it all for you because I wish that we were married and had children of our own" sense.

Michele

[brickney723]

Oh my lord, I do not have the kind of time to continue on with this pissing contest. That is all.

[brickney723]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Quotes spun in a way that get you just where you want to be already are not facts. You likened this to politics and it is. People always twist anything to fit their political bias, even when a statement is just the opposite of their chosen agenda.

It's like the comment in Mick's book where he heard Stevie say, "you'll never love anyone but yourself."

To you that means that Lindsey told Stevie he loved her. Even though Mick never heard that part. You imply it from Stevie's response that Mick says he did hear. Good sleuthing on your part. So, this contributes to your notion that Lindsey never stopped loving Stevie. Fine, I don't think you stop loving people you've been through that much with anyway.

But you choose to ignore the fact that Stevie rejected the idea that he loved her and told him he would never love anyone but himself. He loved her, but she wasn't his top priority. She didn't feel loved. It seems to me that she always felt neglected and taken for granted. So, yes she has quotes in which she says he never stopped loving her, but she's also said that he hated her and just plain didn't like her. I don't think she's wrong either time. I think that both things are true and that things switch and flip many times, between two people.

You choose to focus on just one set of quotes and to explain away the other by saying, "Lindsey just wasn't being honest about his feelings." Or "he just loved her so much that he pushed her away, because it hurt not to have her." Which are great interpretations, but they aren't facts and every quote you get is going to fit into your set interpretation -- even when it doesn't on its face.

I was just reading Myrna Loy again after Shirley Temple's death and she was saying that people wondered why she and William Powell never got together romantically and she said that they were never at the same place at the same time. When she could have fallen for him, he was in love with Jean Harlow. When he was flirting with her, she was happily married. It reminded me of Stevie and Lindsey and you only want me when I get over you.

I think a lot about SnL and enjoy them very much as a couple. But I don't see them as you do.

Michele

Wait. I NEVER EVER said these things. This is wrong.

[elle]

Originally Posted by brickney723

Oh yes, I know I said I'm not open-minded, but seriously… please, please, please give me those quotes in opposition! And I'll read everything surrounding them.

Originally Posted by brickney723

I don't! I'm all about truth! I mean, I can't say it isn't fascinating- and therefore not enjoyable- because it is! But it's only because I've been led to this point by facts. Prove me wrong- bring it! Seriously! :wavy:

Originally Posted by brickney723

Oh my lord, I do not have the kind of time to continue on with this pissing contest. That is all.

you either do or you don't.

[brickney723]

Originally Posted by elle

you either do or you don't.

First of all, you're witty… really. You know what they say about those who get to try out feeling big & powerful behind the keyboard.

I never did get any real quotes, sadly. I suppose it's because…. she doesn't have any. She *did* quote me- only... they were made up quotes. So, it's too bad it's like this… there's probably not much point in discussing anything at all if people are on such a power trip that they can't even have an honest conversation. No wonder it's so freaking slow here.

[sodascouts]

Wow, some folks need to chill!

I've always thought that SnL are a fascinating couple and I think they do have a great "tragic romance" trajectory, especially Stevie since as far as we know she is alone and can't have Lindsey anymore except as a friend. Speculating about their feelings for each other is fun and I've certainly indulged myself on that end, eh? Heaven knows I have been given a hard time about it in the days of yore, which some of you may recall.

The thing is, we can't know. We know what they say, but even that can be ambiguous or even contradictory. When something can't be proven, there will be varying opinions on it. As long as no one's a jerk about it, I don't see a problem.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by brickney723

Originally Posted by nicole21290 View Post
I like Lindsey's very emotional declaration in It Takes Time: "It was all for you."

^^ Like, am I tripping or did he actually say this? And if you say it's just my fantasy and it's not so, are you being honest?

I just like truth.

But be careful how you interpret this. It was all for her in a good way, but also in a bad way. He's talked about this. When love turns to hate, as it did off and on for both of them, you *don't* want the other person to succeed, you *don't* want the best for them... and you might even relish their missteps. Lindsey has been honest enough to say that a lot of times they were competitive with each other... he wanted his solo career to be "better" than hers, or whatever. They like to push each other's buttons. They can be mean to each other, and they have been. He's said in recent years sometimes the (career) things he's done were motivated by this need to compete with her. (If I had the time to dig it out I would). And she certainly had some degree of motivation in her solo career to prove that her music was *not* all due to his arranging and producing, that she could be successful without him. So while I think on some level each has always loved the other, they have also really wanted to "stick it to" the other (in the bad way lol). And he admits this now-- sometimes he pursued things just to "show her", whatever that meant at the time. I think the greatest growth for them both has been to let a lot of that go. To accept that they are good at different things and successful in different ways and they don't need to compete. They've loved each other but they have also had moments where each has wanted the other to fail or to hurt or whatever.