Just Skimmed Through STORMS

[Iktomi]

I try not to get too interested into the lives of Fleetwood Mac members, but I did receive this book as a gift and gave it a read. I'm a fan of Lindsey Buckingham the musician. And I think the man himself is personally interesting, as far as I find any other genius musician goes. So let me just put that out there first. Yet as someone with various experiences and knowledge on domestic violence, this book was of more interest to me in that regards, especially considering Harris' mindset when she wrote it.

Autobiographies deal mostly with perspectives (in other words, every autobiography is going to have inaccuracies and subjective accounts). While I felt that the author exaggerated in areas for effect and was likely inaccurate in her details, I personally didn't feel that she was lying about Lindsey being an abusive man during this time period. Not only by what she says explicitly, but rather implicitly as well. His characteristics and behaviors, without her even meaning to at times, really do describe the behaviors associated with men who are abusive. He had control and anger issues, and those issues have been documented/corroborated by others as well. Some of his lyrics also seem to reflect this mindset, and while not something you should rely on exclusively, the way he held her (the stern hugs (holds rather) around her neck) and his sometimes aggressive nature in bed seem to be consistent with the body language of abusive men. So much of what I read from Harris herself, her behaviors and mindset, are similar to that of victimized women as well. She blamed herself a lot, and forgave him way too easily; and even when the book was written, had a habit of apologizing for him (which shocked me, honestly). She never really took him to task for his abusive behavior or provided any sort of reflection on being a victim of abuse.

If you want to focus on proof, she did provide outside witnesses that could have easily discounted her allegations. Two of the moments that stick out to me were moments where the band members saw Lindsey abusing Carol. I don't remember either of them clearly (so I could be off), but in one scene, Carol describes Lindsey angrily threatening and pulling her towards their vehicle. Carol goes on to describe that as Lindsey was pulling her, she saw Stevie's concerned reaction (this actually touched me as I also read it as "knowing" reaction on Stevie's part, who I think from experience knew what Carol was going through.) If I remember correctly though, Carol expressed how it looked as if Stevie was going to possibly intervene but her friends seemed to have pulled her away. And everyone else just basically looked the other way.

The other moment I remember was when she described how Lindsey was dragging her by the hair in the car right in front of Christine, and when Lindsey let go and left, Christine, clearly shakened, helped her up afterwards. I don't remember what really happened after that, but I'm pretty sure Lindsey probably apologized and Carol accepted it, but nobody held Lindsey accountable for that (which is a totally different discussion). But what struck me with that scene was how after he first hit her, Carol ran after him basically trying to explain and justify herself (again, typical behavior patterns within abusive relationships)

Not only does she show that there were witnesses to this violence, but it really demonstrates their mindsets. Most woman, if slapped or hit, aren't going to run to the man who hit him and trying to explain or justify themselves, begging for him to listen. She constantly excuses him, and rarely demonizes him for his actions.

I'm not trying to start any sort of argument about Lindsey Buckingham (personally, I believe abusive men can be rehabilitated), but I think people should be a little more aware of the realities of domestic violence, and the mindsets involved and should not be so quick to dismiss her story on those accounts. We're all fans of FM and should be aware of the biases we have going into reading this. Sociologically, her description of the pattern of reactions and behaviors seems pretty consistent throughout. And not to criticize Harris, but she doesn't seem creative enough to be able to make all of this up, especially considering how much she reveals without even meaning to.

Anyway, my two cents.

Also, thought I'd throw this in here considering the topic:

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/warning_signs.html

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

I try not to get too interested into the lives of Fleetwood Mac members, but I did receive this book as a gift and gave it a read. I'm a fan of Lindsey Buckingham the musician. And I think the man himself is personally interesting, as far as I find any other genius musician goes. So let me just put that out there first. Yet as someone with various experiences and knowledge on domestic violence, this book was of more interest to me in that regards, especially considering Harris' mindset when she wrote it.

Autobiographies deal mostly with perspectives (in other words, every autobiography is going to have inaccuracies and subjective accounts). While I felt that the author exaggerated in areas for effect and was likely inaccurate in her details, I personally didn't feel that she was lying about Lindsey being an abusive man during this time period. Not only by what she says explicitly, but rather implicitly as well. His characteristics and behaviors, without her even meaning to at times, really do describe the behaviors associated with men who are abusive. He had control and anger issues, and those issues have been documented/corroborated by others as well. Some of his lyrics also seem to reflect this mindset, and while not something you should rely on exclusively, the way he held her (the stern hugs (holds rather) around her neck) and his sometimes aggressive nature in bed seem to be consistent with the body language of abusive men. So much of what I read from Harris herself, her behaviors and mindset, are similar to that of victimized women as well. She blamed herself a lot, and forgave him way too easily; and even when the book was written, had a habit of apologizing for him (which shocked me, honestly). She never really took him to task for his abusive behavior or provided any sort of reflection on being a victim of abuse.

If you want to focus on proof, she did provide outside witnesses that could have easily discounted her allegations. Two of the moments that stick out to me were moments where the band members saw Lindsey abusing Carol. I don't remember either of them clearly (so I could be off), but in one scene, Carol describes Lindsey angrily threatening and pulling her towards their vehicle. Carol goes on to describe that as Lindsey was pulling her, she saw Stevie's concerned reaction (this actually touched me as I also read it as "knowing" reaction on Stevie's part, who I think from experience knew what Carol was going through.) If I remember correctly though, Carol expressed how it looked as if Stevie was going to possibly intervene but her friends seemed to have pulled her away. And everyone else just basically looked the other way.

The other moment I remember was when she described how Lindsey was dragging her by the hair in the car right in front of Christine, and when Lindsey let go and left, Christine, clearly shakened, helped her up afterwards. I don't remember what really happened after that, but I'm pretty sure Lindsey probably apologized and Carol accepted it, but nobody held Lindsey accountable for that (which is a totally different discussion). But what struck me with that scene was how after he first hit her, Carol ran after him basically trying to explain and justify herself (again, typical behavior patterns within abusive relationships)

Not only does she show that there were witnesses to this violence, but it really demonstrates their mindsets. Most woman, if slapped or hit, aren't going to run to the man who hit him and trying to explain or justify themselves, begging for him to listen. She constantly excuses him, and rarely demonizes him for his actions.

I'm not trying to start any sort of argument about Lindsey Buckingham (personally, I believe abusive men can be rehabilitated), but I think people should be a little more aware of the realities of domestic violence, and the mindsets involved and should not be so quick to dismiss her story on those accounts. We're all fans of FM and should be aware of the biases we have going into reading this. Sociologically, her description of the pattern of reactions and behaviors seems pretty consistent throughout. And not to criticize Harris, but she doesn't seem creative enough to be able to make all of this up, especially considering how much she reveals without even meaning to.

Anyway, my two cents.

Also, thought I'd throw this in here considering the topic:

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/warning_signs.html

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm

That's a great post. We've discussed this book, and his abusive actions on here, quite a lot. Again, I don't for a minute, think she's making that part up. I do think that he's changed - and has been a changed man - for several decades now. I'm more bothered by the fact that this topic was brought up, yet again, because someone was bothered at how Stevie was portrayed in this book, thereby seemingly missing the whole point! To read Carol's words, and feel no sympathy for her, but only disgust, or hatred, is mind-boggling to me.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

To read Carol's words, and feel no sympathy for her, but only disgust, or hatred, is mind-boggling to me.

If you don't believe her, I think it's hard to feel sympathy. If you do believe her that's a different story.

I would say if you believe what she says and still feel disgust or hatred, then that's a problem with our "blame the victim" society.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

If you don't believe her, I think it's hard to feel sympathy. If you do believe her that's a different story.

I would say if you believe what she says and still feel disgust or hatred, then that's a problem with our "blame the victim" society.

Michele

yes, i think that's what one has to be very careful about, when talking about this book. many arguments i read on here were along the lines "she must have not been blameless" if it happened. blameless or not, it does not justify the abuse, period.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

yes, i think that's what one has to be very careful about, when talking about this book. many arguments i read on here were along the lines "she must have not been blameless" if it happened. blameless or not, it does not justify the abuse, period.

I agree with you, with one proviso. Just because someone is stronger than you, you can't use physical force against them either. Women should not be hit or pulled or pushed or yanked by the arm or held or restrained or intimidated with one of those, "you better do it or else," scowls. No one should. But they can't do that either.

I have encountered people with the mentality that they can engage in a violent act, but because there's little chance they can actually hurt the person, it's no big deal. Like, I'm so angry I'll just slap my boyfriend in exasperation, but he shouldn't hit me back because he could actually hurt ME, but I can't hurt him. So, I'll just smack him in a fit of pique.

That can't be done. You should not be the victim of physical aggression and you can't engage in it either, even if (practically speaking) coming from you, it's relatively harmless.

I mean, it's the same thing you tell a child, "I don't hit you and I don't expect you to hit me," even if they're still a toddler and their swats don't hurt.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I agree with you, with one proviso. Just because someone is stronger than you, you can't use physical force against them either. Women should not be hit or pulled or pushed or yanked by the arm or held or restrained or intimidated with one of those, "you better do it or else," scowls. No one should. But they can't do that either.

I have encountered people with the mentality that they can engage in a violent act, but because there's little chance they can actually hurt the person, it's no big deal. Like, I'm so angry I'll just slap my boyfriend in exasperation, but he shouldn't hit me back because he could actually hurt ME, but I can't hurt him. So, I'll just smack him in a fit of pique.

That can't be done. You should not be the victim of physical aggression and you can't engage in it either, even if (practically speaking) coming from you, it's relatively harmless.

I mean, it's the same thing you tell a child, "I don't hit you and I don't expect you to hit me," even if they're still a toddler and their swats don't hurt.

Michele

agreed.

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by michelej1

If you don't believe her, I think it's hard to feel sympathy. If you do believe her that's a different story.

I would say if you believe what she says and still feel disgust or hatred, then that's a problem with our "blame the victim" society.

Michele

Good point. For me, I don't think she pulled all of that out of thin air, though I do think she lacks credibility, and so I take it all with a grain of salt.

I also want to add that if he was as abusive as she says, and Mick, John, Ken, et. al., looked the other way, it doesn't say much for them either. Also, I don't think this kind of stuff was unique to LB or FM. My guess is it was not that unusual in the world of R&R, and so looking the other way, was part of the boys club mentality.

Originally Posted by michelej1

That can't be done. You should not be the victim of physical aggression and you can't engage in it either, even if (practically speaking) coming from you, it's relatively harmless.

I mean, it's the same thing you tell a child, "I don't hit you and I don't expect you to hit me," even if they're still a toddler and their swats don't hurt.

Michele

And that's kind of the feeling I get with Stevie and Lindsey, that they both pushed each other's buttons and there was a lot of emotional abuse going both ways. Obviously, men will usually be able to do a lot more physical damage, but it doesn't excuse a woman from acting the same way.

[Iktomi]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

Good point. For me, I don't think she pulled all of that out of thin air, though I do think she lacks credibility, and so I take it all with a grain of salt.

I also want to add that if he was as abusive as she says, and Mick, John, Ken, et. al., looked the other way, it doesn't say much for them either. Also, I don't think this kind of stuff was unique to LB or FM. My guess is it was not that unusual in the world of R&R, and so looking the other way, was part of the boys club mentality.




And that's kind of the feeling I get with Stevie and Lindsey, that they both pushed each other's buttons and there was a lot of emotional abuse going both ways. Obviously, men will usually be able to do a lot more physical damage, but it doesn't excuse a woman from acting the same way.

I agree here. There is a lot of emotional (and physical) abuse directed at men. Actually, where I'm from, the number of cases of sexual abuse against young men is very close to the number of cases for young women. It's heartbreaking, because most the young men around here will never try talk about it....

In regards to LB/SN, I'm sure their love was genuine, but I've always felt that that relationship was highly toxic (well, that goes for most of the relationships in the band at one point). But in specific regards to SN/LB, the jealousy, possessiveness, and raging anger between them was just so dysfunctional and not really a healthy love. In the "real world," I don't think people would encourage a couple like that to get back together.

[luminol]

I'm resurrecting this old thread because I'm new and just finished reading Storms Sorry to be so behind the band wagon....!

I found the book to be entertaining, though I thought the level of detail in Carol's direct quotes from 40 years ago was laughably impossible... though, I actually do not dislike her after reading her book (I actually rather like her more than I thought I would!).

One thing I wanted to comment on is that I don't think she took cheap shots at Stevie much at all. There were a few moments (the birthday comment, for one), but on the whole, I thought she actually praised her frequently and also stood up for her creative prowess during the scene when Lindsey ripped apart Storms (the song) during the Tusk sessions. Just my feeling from the read.

It does paint quite the complex picture of Lindsey...

Again, sorry to bring this back up 3 years later, but I felt compelled to chat about the book with others who have read it since I just finished it

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by luminol

I actually do not dislike her after reading her book (I actually rather like her more than I thought I would!)Again, sorry to bring this back up 3 years later, but I felt compelled to chat about the book with others who have read it since I just finished it

We are flattered when a new member searches out an old thread rather than starts a new one. This is the way we intended it to be. The cool thing about any good book is that, to its reader, it can be a new story, as if it were just written. Another new Ledgie could read this book 10 years from now and then add their comments in this thread.Therefore, no need to apologize. Welcome to The Ledge. We value your opinions.

A few months ago Carol Ann friended me on facebook. I've come to enjoy her posts. She is trying very hard to please the FM fans while reminding us that she too is a fan.

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

I try not to get too interested into the lives of Fleetwood Mac members, but I did receive this book as a gift and gave it a read. I'm a fan of Lindsey Buckingham the musician. And I think the man himself is personally interesting, as far as I find any other genius musician goes. So let me just put that out there first. Yet as someone with various experiences and knowledge on domestic violence, this book was of more interest to me in that regards, especially considering Harris' mindset when she wrote it.

Autobiographies deal mostly with perspectives (in other words, every autobiography is going to have inaccuracies and subjective accounts). While I felt that the author exaggerated in areas for effect and was likely inaccurate in her details, I personally didn't feel that she was lying about Lindsey being an abusive man during this time period. Not only by what she says explicitly, but rather implicitly as well. His characteristics and behaviors, without her even meaning to at times, really do describe the behaviors associated with men who are abusive. He had control and anger issues, and those issues have been documented/corroborated by others as well. Some of his lyrics also seem to reflect this mindset, and while not something you should rely on exclusively, the way he held her (the stern hugs (holds rather) around her neck) and his sometimes aggressive nature in bed seem to be consistent with the body language of abusive men. So much of what I read from Harris herself, her behaviors and mindset, are similar to that of victimized women as well. She blamed herself a lot, and forgave him way too easily; and even when the book was written, had a habit of apologizing for him (which shocked me, honestly). She never really took him to task for his abusive behavior or provided any sort of reflection on being a victim of abuse.

If you want to focus on proof, she did provide outside witnesses that could have easily discounted her allegations. Two of the moments that stick out to me were moments where the band members saw Lindsey abusing Carol. I don't remember either of them clearly (so I could be off), but in one scene, Carol describes Lindsey angrily threatening and pulling her towards their vehicle. Carol goes on to describe that as Lindsey was pulling her, she saw Stevie's concerned reaction (this actually touched me as I also read it as "knowing" reaction on Stevie's part, who I think from experience knew what Carol was going through.) If I remember correctly though, Carol expressed how it looked as if Stevie was going to possibly intervene but her friends seemed to have pulled her away. And everyone else just basically looked the other way.

The other moment I remember was when she described how Lindsey was dragging her by the hair in the car right in front of Christine, and when Lindsey let go and left, Christine, clearly shakened, helped her up afterwards. I don't remember what really happened after that, but I'm pretty sure Lindsey probably apologized and Carol accepted it, but nobody held Lindsey accountable for that (which is a totally different discussion). But what struck me with that scene was how after he first hit her, Carol ran after him basically trying to explain and justify herself (again, typical behavior patterns within abusive relationships)

Not only does she show that there were witnesses to this violence, but it really demonstrates their mindsets. Most woman, if slapped or hit, aren't going to run to the man who hit him and trying to explain or justify themselves, begging for him to listen. She constantly excuses him, and rarely demonizes him for his actions.

I'm not trying to start any sort of argument about Lindsey Buckingham (personally, I believe abusive men can be rehabilitated), but I think people should be a little more aware of the realities of domestic violence, and the mindsets involved and should not be so quick to dismiss her story on those accounts. We're all fans of FM and should be aware of the biases we have going into reading this. Sociologically, her description of the pattern of reactions and behaviors seems pretty consistent throughout. And not to criticize Harris, but she doesn't seem creative enough to be able to make all of this up, especially considering how much she reveals without even meaning to.

Anyway, my two cents.

Also, thought I'd throw this in here considering the topic:

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/warning_signs.html

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm

I agree with your assessment that abused women take up for their abusers and hide proof, I've even seen it happen first hand. Also, please understand this. I'm NOT OK with ANY Form form of abuse, whether it be to a man, woman or child and whether it be physical or mental. I think all abusers should have to suffer the same kind of abuse they gave to their victims.

But honesty the degree of physical abuse and the amount of people that Carol claims either witnessed the abuse or saw her bleeding an bruised shortly there after makes me doubt her.

She claims that after the incident of Lindsey pulling her hair out while driving away in his car, she went bloodied an bruised to a hotel and that the guy at the desk just asked her if she was OK?!?!? He never said/did anything else, just gave her the keys to her room and let her go on her way?

She even claims her OWN DAM* DOCTOR KNEW she was being abused by Lindsey and HE NEVER DID ANYTHING? Just gave her fatherly advice that she needed to get out of the relationship !?!? If it was like she claims (and she said he beat her pretty badly) if her own doctor didn't at least TRY TO INTERVENE and she ended up DYEING, THAT'S A LAWSUIT WAITING TO HAPPEN. MAYBE EVEN AN MALPRACTICE CASE AS WELL.

According to Carol's book EVERYONE knew of the abuse (accept the police) and NO ONE talked to her about it or tried to help her in any way, NOT EVEN HER OWN FRIENDS?!?! I mean WTF is that about ?!?!

Plus like I said before there are SO MANY obvious gaps in her book, it's hard to know what really happened. There are so many stories she brings up and then drops. Again like what Lindsey said/did when he found out about Mick and Stevie's affair (my guess is he flipped) and also what he said/did when he found out about Robin's death just to name two of them.

Whether she left significant parts out of her book on purpose, because her memory was fuzzy or maybe she didn't remember some incidences altogether (because she was too stoned) only she can say. But if her memory was fuzzy or she can't remember some incidences it only reinforces the fact that her stories maybe skewed, and if she left the stories out on purpose then that shows that there was a lot more to the story than Carol is willing to tell/admit too.

I'm not saying Lindsey is a great guy. I believe he can be a total and complete nightmare to be around when he wants to be. I'm also not saying the abuse didn't happen or that it couldn't have happened and everyone IS ALLOWED to tell their story. But if you are going to bash someone in a book (and she clearly was bashing Lindsey in this book) then you better make sure your facts are straight and that you come clean with EVERYTHING YOU DID TOO or it is makes your story less believable and makes it appear that your mad you got dumped and this is just payback.

[Wynne]

Sorry one last question. Lindsey made Stevie wear the sweater on the cover for SYW? Is there some big story behind it? Did Stevie not want to? Also there is a poster this has a line on all their posts that quotes Lindsey as saying "She has an something femininity" Was he referring to Stevie? Also in the go insane song when he says "She's a lot like you" Was her referring to Stevie and Carol?

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Wynne

Is there some big story behind it?

No, there is no story behind it. Stevie did an interview with Jim Ladd in 2005 when she was going to hit Caesar's Palace and she had a new wardrobe for Vegas and in that interview she said:

"Mr Buckingham is never crazy about my flamboyant shows. His comment to me was 'Can't you be just a little more casual?' So I became more casual for the Fleetwood Mac shows, but this is different, this is Las Vegas, my grandmother would have said, 'This is the circus.' "

From this one vague comment that he said to her, "Can you be more casual," people have leaped to the conclusion that Lindsey dictated her wardrobe. During the SYW tour, some people described one of the tops she wore as an Italian Granny sweater. They did not like it. Therefore, when Stevie made this comment to Jim Ladd they said, "Lindsey is the one who forced her to wear that granny sweater," although Stevie herself never said anything other than that Lindsey asked if she couldn't be more casual. She certainly never indicated that he selected her wardrobe pieces beyond wondering if she could dress a little more casually.

Michele

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by Wynne

Sorry one last question. Lindsey made Stevie wear the sweater on the cover for SYW? Is there some big story behind it?

Welcome to Fleetwood Mac 101.

Lindsey put a gun to Stevie's head in 1973 and forced her to go topless for the Buckingham Nicks cover. He forced her to dress like a witch for the cover of Rumours. He made her throw her head back for the cover of Mirage even though Stevie didn't think she could because her head was cut off in another life. He made her lay down on top of an old broken down piano for the cover of The Dance and he forced her onto the ground for the cover of SYW. He was also influential on her solo covers also. He directed every photo session. He forced her to hold the bird for the cover of Bella Donna, forced her to combine more than one pic for the cover of WH. Forced her into a skin tight coat for the cover of RAL. The story goes that he had to lay her down on the floor to get her into that one. He wasn't around for the rest of her albums though.

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by vivfox

Welcome to Fleetwood Mac 101.

Lindsey put a gun to Stevie's head in 1973 and forced her to go topless for the Buckingham Nicks cover. He forced her to dress like a witch for the cover of Rumours. He made her throw her head back for the cover of Mirage even though Stevie didn't think she could because her head was cut off in another life. He made her lay down on top of an old broken down piano for the cover of The Dance and he forced her onto the ground for the cover of SYW. He was also influential on her solo covers also. He directed every photo session. He forced her to hold the bird for the cover of Bella Donna, forced her to combine more than one pic for the cover of WH. Forced her into a skin tight coat for the cover of RAL. The story goes that he had to lay her down on the floor to get her into that one. He wasn't around for the rest of her albums though.

Very funny

but the story about the Buckingham nicks album cover was true (not the fact that he held a gun to her) but Stevie says that Lindsey really pressured her to go topless in that photo shoot and told her to stop being a baby. She said he even started to take her top off himself. Hmmm... nice visual..

No she DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT, I'm sure if she really protested enough Lindsey would have laid off her and when her parents saw the album cover Stevie blamed Lindsey for it. She said she told her father she did it because she didn't feel like she had a choice, not to and her father said to her she could have JUST SAID NO. Stevie said it was after that she decided she was never going to let someone push her into doing something she did not want to do. BUT I know you know all this Viv...