Meat-Eating Debate (Relocated Thread)

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

ok, here is another source. And I'm doing this to show that science is tit for tat. Someone can quote a scource and then another person can quote another source with a different take or different perspective. Science is a lot like religion. You have to have faith.

This has got to be one of my favorite quotes of Ledgedom, especially the part I bolded. I love how we debate really deep, meaningful issues here.

[vivfox]

I would suggest moving this thread to chit chat and changing the title because this thread is supposed to be about whether or not Stevie wears real or fake fur.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Pyewacket

So...animal cruelty is a recent development, say in the last 100 years?

Animal dependency leads to animal cruelty. And wars have been around forever and are not always caused by competition for resources. Many have been ideological (no, I am the king) or religious (yay, religion!).

Overpopulation is a sidebar, and a distraction. It has less to do with "eating animals" than "not eating animals" does.

Those religions are all about populating the earth with lots of children to spread their religion. They are fighting over who will control the population. What religion tells its flock to have less children. Religions are all about population and domination. The resource they are competing for is people. A tribes did fight each but it was really over food. Sorry, but lots of wars are disquised. We went to war basically for oil, but the president tried to say it was for something else. It's resources.

No overpopulation is not a sidebar. It's the main reason why the planet is in the shape it is in today. It's the real reason, but no one likes to talk about it.

[jannieC]

I have not had a chance to read all of the responses here, but I can't WAIT to do so. I do want to quickly respond to the idea that cruelty to animals comes from overpopulation. The cruelty to animals comes from GREED. God, I wish I were not at work so I could get in on this discussion. Please consider this post as my place holder, or bookmark.

[chriskisn]

Oh dear not the old vegetarian debate again. It is kind of like politics and religion, not the sort of thing to bring up at the dinner table. I have never known this discussion lead to anything but arguments (oh and believe me I've had this debate many times). There are the people who say "but we are meant to eat meat" and the people who say "but eating meat is cruel" and they are never ever going to agree or see things from the same perspective.

My two cents worth here though is that if you eat meat, and you are happy to eat meat, then don't be upset if other cultures eat dogs, cats, horses or whales. I drives me insane the amount of meat eating people who complain about commercial whaling.

Oh and the old "we are meant to eat meat" argument. Sure this may well be true and I wouldn't profess to be an expect in this area. If we look back at our ancestors though, we can quite easily work out that we probably aren't meant to drive in cars, fly in planes, practise monogamy, or a whole list of other things. Good thing that cannibalism and human sacrifice never caught on !

[APerfectLie]

Both sides have pros and cons and neither side is "right". Why can't people just accept that it is a personal choice and allow others to live their lives as they please?

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

One reason why animals are slaughtered so barbraically is because of the demand. Everything is out of balance because of the world population. Resources are dwindling. Animals are just treated like a resource. Kill them quick and make a buck.

Still, humans were mean't to eat meat in my opinion. It's a shame the animals are treated.

I addressed the first statement in my earlier post. Thanks to greedy corporations, factory farmed animals are given a life of pain and suffering. Factory farmed animals (aka, the meat on your table) are looked at as a commodity to be exploited. Their lives are hell; the slaughter is the final "relief". We use animals for food, clothing, transport, protection, entertainment and companionship. In return, humane treatment is the least we can provide.

It's actually more than just a "shame" that the animals are treated this way. They're pumped up with growth hormones, appetite stimulants, pesticides and antibiotics. These chemicals build up and collect and the animals milk and tissues.

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Animals are suffering because of it. However, meat is good. I like it.

Truthfully, there's really no way to respond to this in a way you would hear and understand.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Again, eating meat is a personal choice. But at least be willing to consider the consequences of your choices at face value without trying to cloud it with some kind of irrelevant conservative talking points.

Yes. When I was younger (in my twenties), I was much more outspoken in regard to my beliefs. As I've gotten older and more mellow, I realize that it's not my job to "save" the animals. I do wish that people would be more mindful about the reality of factory farmed animals. I am not a vegetarian vigilante. My mother eats meat, as does my 17 year old step son. It's not up to me to dictate what someone else eats. Why then, do some meat eaters feel the need to ruthlessly prove why it's so important for us to eat meat?

I've heard all of the arguments related to whether or not we are meant to eat meat. I've heard all about canines and cave men, etc. Who cares? Animals were killed swiftly and without torture.

I'm losing steam- it's late (for me-old lady). It's an age old debate that does not need to be fought. Non meat eaters tend to debate it because of the belief that modern day farming and meat eating is detrimental not only to one's health but to the over all environment. People who love meat debate it because...

Sorry for typos- I'm tired.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

Both sides have pros and cons and neither side is "right". Why can't people just accept that it is a personal choice and allow others to live their lives as they please?

That's exactly my response to just about every debate in life: religion, marriage, sexuality, politics, children, etc.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

That's exactly my response to just about every debate in life: religion, marriage, sexuality, politics, children, etc.

Word.


fukcing 10 characters

[mezzoforte]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Oh dear not the old vegetarian debate again. It is kind of like politics and religion, not the sort of thing to bring up at the dinner table. I have never known this discussion lead to anything but arguments (oh and believe me I've had this debate many times). There are the people who say "but we are meant to eat meat" and the people who say "but eating meat is cruel" and they are never ever going to agree or see things from the same perspective.

My two cents worth here though is that if you eat meat, and you are happy to eat meat, then don't be upset if other cultures eat dogs, cats, horses or whales. I drives me insane the amount of meat eating people who complain about commercial whaling.

Oh and the old "we are meant to eat meat" argument. Sure this may well be true and I wouldn't profess to be an expect in this area. If we look back at our ancestors though, we can quite easily work out that we probably aren't meant to drive in cars, fly in planes, practise monogamy, or a whole list of other things. Good thing that cannibalism and human sacrifice never caught on !

You're right--these arguments will never be productive. I don't think these sorts of debates will ever change anyone's mind--no diehard meat eater is going to read an internet debate and say "you're right, I will go vegan!" Just as no atheist will ever say, "Thanks for explaining it--the Mormon faith sounds perfect for me!"

And yet....
Most of us have a certain amount of investment in these topics. We define ourselves in part by how we align on these sorts of issues. Heck, I float somewhere in the middle--I've given up seafood for environment reasons, but not meat, and don't particularly begrudge either party. And even I can't stop myself from butting in on these unproductive conversations.

I was intrigued by your opinion on cats, dogs, and whales. I agree with you on cats and dogs--the idea makes me a little squeamish (no way could I eat a cat), but I agree that it's unfair for meat-eaters to draw a moral line there. As Americans and Europeans, most of us spent our formative years with Fluffy and Rex, and impose those memories on very different cultures. Basically, unless an animal is endangered or threatened (or highly intelligent--sentience has meaning IMO), I think it's unfair for meat-eaters to get too judge-y.

But whales? Are they really in the same category? I realize most whaling is carried out by indigenous communities and it may not be fair of us to imposeon their cultural traditions, but I definitely have a problem with hunting threatened species of whales. I'm less sure about non-endangered species--for me, the question with any kind of fishing comes down to the method they use and how destructive it is to other marine life. But I honestly don't know much about commercial whaling, and am very open to being educated...

[McTrouble]

If we weren't meant to eat cows then they wouldn't have been created meat flavoured - OK I know its an old joke but I couldn't resist it

[ButterCookie]

Originally Posted by McTrouble

If we weren't meant to eat cows then they wouldn't have been created meat flavoured - OK I know its an old joke but I couldn't resist it

Omg! That was so funny, I actually forgot to laugh

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by McTrouble

If we weren't meant to eat cows then they wouldn't have been created meat flavoured - OK I know its an old joke but I couldn't resist it

Apparently humans taste real good too!

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Regardless of Man's origins, guess what? We evolved. Enough said. I don't see what some thick-skulled, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal has to do with us today. They didn't have the intellectual capacity to prevent their own extinction, so why should they be held up as an example of how modern humans should live their lives today?

And, you're saying modern man DOES know how to prevent their own extinction? I seriously doubt that...especially if you watch Fox News for more than 10 minutes. We're on a collision course with our own species demise...have been for as long as we've been on Earth. (assuming we came from elsewhere in the Universe) Humans have basically been the "cancer cell" lifeform on this planet. We've grown in population totally unchecked like a malignancy. But, we'll get our due in time...not my lifetime, maybe not even our great-great-great-great grandchildren's, but eventually, humans will not exist on this planet. Gone like a cool breeze.

[bluefox4000]

Originally Posted by chiliD

And, you're saying modern man DOES know how to prevent their own extinction? I seriously doubt that...especially if you watch Fox News for more than 10 minutes. We're on a collision course with our own species demise...have been for as long as we've been on Earth. (assuming we came from elsewhere in the Universe) Humans have basically been the "cancer cell" lifeform on this planet. We've grown in population totally unchecked like a malignancy. But, we'll get our due in time...not my lifetime, maybe not even our great-great-great-great grandchildren's, but eventually, humans will not exist on this planet. Gone like a cool breeze.

Reminds of one of my fav George Carlin pieces.....The planet is fine.....The people.....ARE FUKED

Mick