So Much for Sep. of Church and State

[strandinthewind]

I get that praying is a great thing for the vast majority of Americans and that many are doing it now and hopefully it is helping. But, the words "I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is almost like if you pray to some deity other than "Almighty God," you are a bad person. I mean it would have sufficed to say "I call upon all Americans to pray." But, the far right and indeed most Americans just cannot resist shoving the Judeo-Christian God down everyone's throats and making anyone who does not believe in the Judeo-Christian God feel like a second class citizen, which this Proclamation does. Again, I am not saying people should not pray - In fact, I encourage that as I think it helps and I certainly have. It is the commanding of US Citizens to pray apparently exclusively to W's "Almighty God" that I object to.

to wit:

Proclamation by the President: National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

Hurricane Katrina was one of the worst natural disasters in our Nation's history and has caused unimaginable devastation and heartbreak throughout the Gulf Coast Region. A vast coastline of towns and communities has been decimated. Many lives have been lost, and hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans are suffering great hardship. To honor the memory of those who lost their lives, to provide comfort and strength to the families of the victims, and to help ease the burden of the survivors, I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God and to perform acts of service.

As we observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina, we pledge our support for those who have been injured and for the communities that are struggling to rebuild. We offer thanks to God for the goodness and generosity of so many Americans who have come together to provide relief and bring hope to fellow citizens in need. Our Nation is united in compassion for the victims and in resolve to overcome the tremendous loss that has come to America. We will strive together in this effort, and we will prevail through perseverance and prayer.

Americans are reaching out to those who suffer by opening their hearts, homes, and communities. Their actions demonstrate the greatest compassion one person may show to another: to love your neighbor as yourself. Across our Nation, so many selfless deeds reflect the promise of the Scripture: "For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in." I encourage all Americans to respond with acts of kindness in the days ahead. By contributing time, money, or needed goods to a relief organization and by praying for the survivors and those in recovery efforts, we can make a tremendous difference in the lives of those in need.

Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath resulted in a considerable loss of life. We pray that God will bless the souls of the lost, and that He will comfort their families and friends and all lives touched by this disaster. As the American people unite to help those who are hurting, we share a determination to stand by those affected by Hurricane Katrina in the months and years ahead as they rebuild their lives and reclaim their future. We are determined that the Gulf Coast region will rise again. The tasks before us are enormous, and so is the heart of America. We will continue to comfort and care for the survivors. We will once again show the world that the worst adversities bring out the best in the American people.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 16, 2005, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina. I ask that the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with memorial services and other appropriate observances. I also encourage all Americans to remember those who have suffered in the disaster by offering prayers and giving their hearts and homes for those who now, more than ever, need our compassion and our support.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand five, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirtieth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/09/20050908-12.html

Of course - he did this on 9/11 as well:

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

Hurricane Katrina was one of the worst natural disasters in our Nation's history and has caused unimaginable devastation and heartbreak throughout the Gulf Coast Region. A vast coastline of towns and communities has been decimated. Many lives have been lost, and hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans are suffering great hardship. To honor the memory of those who lost their lives, to provide comfort and strength to the families of the victims, and to help ease the burden of the survivors, I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God and to perform acts of service.

As we observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina, we pledge our support for those who have been injured and for the communities that are struggling to rebuild. We offer thanks to God for the goodness and generosity of so many Americans who have come together to provide relief and bring hope to fellow citizens in need. Our Nation is united in compassion for the victims and in resolve to overcome the tremendous loss that has come to America. We will strive together in this effort, and we will prevail through perseverance and prayer.

Americans are reaching out to those who suffer by opening their hearts, homes, and communities. Their actions demonstrate the greatest compassion one person may show to another: to love your neighbor as yourself. Across our Nation, so many selfless deeds reflect the promise of the Scripture: "For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in." I encourage all Americans to respond with acts of kindness in the days ahead. By contributing time, money, or needed goods to a relief organization and by praying for the survivors and those in recovery efforts, we can make a tremendous difference in the lives of those in need.

Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath resulted in a considerable loss of life. We pray that God will bless the souls of the lost, and that He will comfort their families and friends and all lives touched by this disaster. As the American people unite to help those who are hurting, we share a determination to stand by those affected by Hurricane Katrina in the months and years ahead as they rebuild their lives and reclaim their future. We are determined that the Gulf Coast region will rise again. The tasks before us are enormous, and so is the heart of America. We will continue to comfort and care for the survivors. We will once again show the world that the worst adversities bring out the best in the American people.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 16, 2005, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of Hurricane Katrina. I ask that the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with memorial services and other appropriate observances. I also encourage all Americans to remember those who have suffered in the disaster by offering prayers and giving their hearts and homes for those who now, more than ever, need our compassion and our support.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand five, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirtieth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010913-7.html

[markolas]

This comes as a surprise?

[tynan88]

I'm sorry but it doesn't surprise me, I think days of prayer are a great idea...just a shame they took it too far.

Also what is the go with the "in witness thereof....the two hundred and thirtieth"? What does the two hundred and thirtieth mean?

[strandinthewind]

I'm sorry but it doesn't surprise me, I think days of prayer are a great idea...just a shame they took it too far.

Also what is the go with the "in witness thereof....the two hundred and thirtieth"? What does the two hundred and thirtieth mean?


I think it means the US has been an ind. nation for 230 years.

[Mari]

hm. God's own country, eh.

[GateandGarden]

"This may be God's country but this is my country, too."

(Sorry--I was inspired to quote Ani DiFranco as I often am for no real, justifiable reason).

[Mari]

^good quote.

OT, when you google "god's own country" (which I just did, duh) you get lots of links about Kerala, India. Uh.. yeah. OT.

[DrummerDeanna]

:rolleyes:

If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug:

It's no secret our President is a Christian - what did you expect him to say??

[strandinthewind]

:rolleyes:

If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug:

It's no secret our President is a Christian - what did you expect him to say??

Well, it is not just that. It is almost like he is commanding all Americans to pray to "Almighty God" and that is a violation of the Establishment Clause. Put it this way, what if he had called upon America to pray to Shiva, would that have been okay. So, it is a little more than "If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug: " IMO. But, if you are not bothered by it, so be it.

Finally, as I indicated, I expected or hope he would have said the less offensive "pray" and specified no deity as America is polytheistic, much to their chagrin.

[GypsySorcerer]

Finally, as I indicated, I expected or hope he would have said the less offensive "pray" and specified no deity as America is polytheistic, much to their chagrin.
He could have easily said to remember the victims in hurricane Katrina in our thoughts and prayers. Very simple.

[DrummerDeanna]

Well yes, he could have left it at "pray" - but his is Dubya we're talking about - I mean there is nothing surprising in his declaration...

But I mean - in general - I think there is a general consensus (probably not among radical right-wingers) that "almighty God" is all-encompassing...that it's all the same God - with different paths to get to him....

[strandinthewind]

Well yes, he could have left it at "pray" - but his is Dubya we're talking about - I mean there is nothing surprising in his declaration...

But I mean - in general - I think there is a general consensus (probably not among radical right-wingers) that "almighty God" is all-encompassing...that it's all the same God - with different paths to get to him....

I get the whole general consensus thing, but it is still offensive to many.

In any event, if I thought for a second that W meant it in that non-offensive manner, I'd be willing to go with that thought. But, I feel that this is another jab in a ling line of jabs by these people. Ever drive down the interstate and see the "UNDER GOD" billboards, which are clear F YOU's to people who do not believe in God and the people that put them up think those non believers have no place in this country except perhaps as a second class citizen. Similarly, the "under God" in the POA - it was put there to stop Godless communism and they originally wanted "under Jesus." I think the same thing applies with W in this instance. It is sort of like he is giving the secret high sign to the rabid Christians in this country.

But, to each their own and I hope you are right.

[gldstwmn]

Well, it is not just that. It is almost like he is commanding all Americans to pray to "Almighty God" and that is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Okay, so now can we impeach him? :laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

I get the whole general consensus thing, but it is still offensive to many.

In any event, if I thought for a second that W meant it in that non-offensive manner, I'd be willing to go with that thought. But, I feel that this is another jab in a ling line of jabs by these people. Ever drive down the interstate and see the "UNDER GOD" billboards, which are clear F YOU's to people who do not believe in God and the people that put them up think those non believers have no place in this country except perhaps as a second class citizen. Similarly, the "under God" in the POA - it was put there to stop Godless communism and they originally wanted "under Jesus." I think the same thing applies with W in this instance. It is sort of like he is giving the secret high sign to the rabid Christians in this country.

But, to each their own and I hope you are right.


See - and I've stated before that I simply don't understand why people are so offended by those words.....

If you don't believe in God then that's what they are - just words :shrug:

I mean I see how you're saying that it's an F-You - I just don't see it that way - but that's just me....and I also understand that a lot of it is the extreme religious folk and the radicals that people have a problem with - but man - I don't get the extreme offense people take at the mere mention of God :shrug:

[dissention]

I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God and to perform acts of service.


http://www.geocities.com/rnareau/mmo.jpg

[The Tower]

Yeah, I am seriously tired of all this "praying" for this and "praying" for that. If there are problems and concerns out there that people wish to resolve, perhaps they should actually do something about it instead of just wishing and hoping that it will happen.

Like Ned Flanders said in a classic episode of The Simpsons when his house was destroyed by a hurricane and the town of Springfield banded together to rebuild his house (they did a ****ty job and his house collapsed):

"Well my family and I can't live in good intentions, Marge! Oh, your family's out of control, but we can't blame you, because you have gooooooooood intentions!"

[strandinthewind]

See - and I've stated before that I simply don't understand why people are so offended by those words.....

If you don't believe in God then that's what they are - just words :shrug:

I mean I see how you're saying that it's an F-You - I just don't see it that way - but that's just me....and I also understand that a lot of it is the extreme religious folk and the radicals that people have a problem with - but man - I don't get the extreme offense people take at the mere mention of God :shrug:

It is not the mere mention of God - I do not think anyone really objects to that per se. It is in the way it is done and the reasons why. It is the pseudo commanding of people to pray to the Judeo Christian God, which is what he meant as I know of no other major religion (Buddahists, Hindus, etc. ) that refers to its deity that way. I support this by noting W will never say "pray to whatever deity you believe in." I mean if we are going for generality, why not do it that way - why let the alleged vagueness of "Almighty God" exist at all. W does not do it that way because he is beholden to the crazy religious people and he knows the vast majority of Americans will overlook this blatant slight to the theocratic minority because they are Christians or Jews and they could really care a less about anyone else. Thus, the state of religion infiltrating politics/government in America.

[strandinthewind]

Okay, so now can we impeach him? :laugh:

Honey - I'd have impeached him on the SOU address citing the reasons for war. Sadly, that will never happen because the D's are mostly complicit in that. But, yes, any excuse to impeach him works for me :laugh: It is getting over those legal hurdles that will be a pain in the neck :laugh:

[dissention]

See - and I've stated before that I simply don't understand why people are so offended by those words.....

If you don't believe in God then that's what they are - just words :shrug:

I mean I see how you're saying that it's an F-You - I just don't see it that way - but that's just me....and I also understand that a lot of it is the extreme religious folk and the radicals that people have a problem with - but man - I don't get the extreme offense people take at the mere mention of God :shrug:

The mere mention?

The man just called upon everyone to pray to God. You have your own beliefs and that's fine, but the POTU should not be wasting his time or our money in a silly attempt to shove his God down our throats.

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, I am seriously tired of all this "praying" for this and "praying" for that. If there are problems and concerns out there that people wish to resolve, perhaps they should actually do something about it instead of just wishing and hoping that it will happen.

Like Ned Flanders said in a classic episode of The Simpsons when his house was destroyed by a hurricane and the town of Springfield banded together to rebuild his house (they did a ****ty job and his house collapsed):

"Well my family and I can't live in good intentions, Marge! Oh, your family's out of control, but we can't blame you, because you have gooooooooood intentions!"

LOL - that reminds me of a joke Dolly Parton told on Lemo awhile back. She said her father bought an old broken down and overgrown farm and through his hard work brought it into a renewed and productive state. Well, the local preacher man happened to stop by one day and praised the Lord for fixing the farm. Dolly said her father looked at the preacher, realizing he wanted only money, and said "Yea, well, you have seen it when the Lord had it by Himself" :laugh: :laugh:

[chiliD]

OT, when you google "god's own country" (which I just did, duh) you get lots of links about Kerala, India.

Hmmmm, interesting...I would've thought you would've gotten a bunch of U2 hits. :shrug:

[The Tower]

LOL - that reminds me of a joke Dolly Parton told on Lemo awhile back. She said her father bought an old broken down and overgrown farm and through his hard work brought it into a renewed and productive state. Well, the local preacher man happened to stop by one day and praised the Lord for fixing the farm. Dolly said her father looked at the preacher, realizing he wanted only money, and said "Yea, well, you have seen it when the Lord had it by Himself" :laugh: :laugh:
The auto-assumption that everyone has religious leanings that has been so pervasive lately just makes me sick.

It's like the same auto-assumption that everyone is straight. A co-worker of mine told me a story the other day- she showed me pictures of her two chocolate labs and said that ever since she got married her husband wouldn't allow her dogs to sleep on the bed. I said, "Well, in that case I would choose the dogs over the husband" and she said, "Of course you would!" - the concept being that, as a man, it would be impossible for me to "want" another man.

I just rolled my eyes and walked away...

[LongBlackScarf]

:rolleyes:

If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug:

It's no secret our President is a Christian - what did you expect him to say??

I expect him to realize that not ALL the people of American are Christians. I know I have a Jewish friend who becomes very upset with Bush mentions "Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior" in his speeches. That should just NOT be happening. If he wants to urge us to pray, then he's postering himself as an evangelist, and not a President. The President should represent all peoples in this nation, and respect all faiths, including the fine upstanding people here who are atheists. One more thing....since hurricanes are considered "Acts Of God" just WTF are we praying FOR, anyway? That Big Bad God doesn't whack us again?? :rolleyes:

[irishgrl]

The Number 1 burning question on MY mind (and everyone else's Im sure) is:
do we get the day off?

[LongBlackScarf]

The auto-assumption that everyone has religious leanings that has been so pervasive lately just makes me sick.

.

How true! I was doing some local advertising with my community newspaper and my ad-lady was asking me where I had previously placed ads. We were talking about schools, stores with bulletin boards, etc. And then she said "You can do a lot of adverising with your church! What religion are you?" We also assume everyone is CHRISTIAN? I don't think so, toots! I was dumbfounded. I actually went to another paper.

[irishgrl]

Honey - I'd have impeached him on the SOU address citing the reasons for war. Sadly, that will never happen because the D's are mostly complicit in that. But, yes, any excuse to impeach him works for me :laugh: It is getting over those legal hurdles that will be a pain in the neck :laugh:

To HELL with the legal hurdles! GET A ROPE! Vigilante justice for a Texan! Go Figure!

[SomeKindaMother]

Maybe he's trying *ha-a-aaard* to rally the righties that have been wavering over the whole mess he allowed to happen after Katrina....and divert the attention of the 'non-christians'? Or maybe he is just that arrogant. Either way, it takes some of the Katrina fire off him.

Kelly :)

[The Tower]

I expect him to realize that not ALL the people of American are Christians. I know I have a Jewish friend who becomes very upset with Bush mentions "Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior" in his speeches. That should just NOT be happening. If he wants to urge us to pray, then he's postering himself as an evangelist, and not a President. The President should represent all peoples in this nation, and respect all faiths, including the fine upstanding people here who are atheists. One more thing....since hurricanes are considered "Acts Of God" just WTF are we praying FOR, anyway? That Big Bad God doesn't whack us again?? :rolleyes:
On NPR yesterday they did a report about the casinos of the Mississippi gulf coast and whether or not they would be rebuilding. They played a snippet from a local radio advertisement of a woman warning the residents of the gulf coast to not encourage the rebuilding of the casinos (even though thousands of people have lost their jobs because of the devastation) because "god" recognized the wickedness of building the casinos in the first place and that's why they were destroyed.

IDIOTS!!!!!!

On a similar note, did anyone see The Daily Show last night where they played footage of some "doctor" stating that dinosaurs did not exist millions of years ago- that they were in the garden of eden with Adam and Eve 4,000 years ago.

No wonder this country is where it is today. The stupidity of the human race is astonishing.

[strandinthewind]

. . . No wonder this country is where it is today. The stupidity of the human race is astonishing.

The Earth is flat ya know and anyone that says differently is subject to torture for heresy :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Well, it is not just that. It is almost like he is commanding all Americans to pray to "Almighty God" and that is a violation of the Establishment Clause. Put it this way, what if he had called upon America to pray to Shiva, would that have been okay. So, it is a little more than "If you don't like it then don't pray :shrug: " IMO. But, if you are not bothered by it, so be it.

Finally, as I indicated, I expected or hope he would have said the less offensive "pray" and specified no deity as America is polytheistic, much to their chagrin.

But you are doing an awful lot of assuming that he is "commanding" all Americans to pray. If you don't pray, then think of it as a "good thoughts" day.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I expect him to realize that not ALL the people of American are Christians. I know I have a Jewish friend who becomes very upset with Bush mentions "Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior" in his speeches. That should just NOT be happening. If he wants to urge us to pray, then he's postering himself as an evangelist, and not a President. The President should represent all peoples in this nation, and respect all faiths, including the fine upstanding people here who are atheists. One more thing....since hurricanes are considered "Acts Of God" just WTF are we praying FOR, anyway? That Big Bad God doesn't whack us again?? :rolleyes:

The Jewish don't pray?

[LongBlackScarf]

The Jewish don't pray?

:rolleyes: They sure as hell don't pray to Jesus. If you're trying to make some sort of point, be more specific in your post.

[strandinthewind]

But you are doing an awful lot of assuming that he is "commanding" all Americans to pray. If you don't pray, then think of it as a "good thoughts" day.

1. He called on "all Amercians" not just people of faith in an official Order.

2. Why couldn't he have said "If you don't pray, then think of it as a 'good thoughts' day" instead of excluding those people in the phrase "all Americans?" Instead, he refers only to "Almighty God," which panders mostly to the Judeo Christians only. That is so obvious it is almost laughable.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

1. He called on "all Amercians" not just people of faith in an official Order.

2. Why couldn't he have said "If you don't pray, then think of it as a 'good thoughts' day" instead of excluding those people in the phrase "all Americans?" Instead, he refers only to "Almighty God," which panders mostly to the Judeo Christians only. That is so obvious it is almost laughable.

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator" :shrug:

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now.... :D

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:rolleyes: They sure as hell don't pray to Jesus. If you're trying to make some sort of point, be more specific in your post.

He didn't say pray to "Jesus"...I don't know...I could be wrong. :shrug:

[LongBlackScarf]

He didn't say pray to "Jesus"...I don't know...I could be wrong. :shrug:

You should read posts more carefully before you respond to them. Re-read my post and maybe you'll get what I was saying about Jesus. It has nothing to do with this current "call to prayer" he's doing. I was speaking about my Jewish friend(s) and their disgust that Bush is always yappin' about his savior. Even in public speeches.

[strandinthewind]

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator" :shrug: Also, Providence is a goddess - so should we assume they meant to pray to her, though they mostly likely did not mean it that way?

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now.... :D

What a cop out and typical for you - when faced with facts you either retreat or spin it to Clinton :rolleyes:

On edit - the words "creator" and "God" are not in the Const. and were purposefully left out. Nice try though.

Also, the Declaration of Ind. does not urge people to pray only to the Judeo Christian God. Rather, it speaks far more generally, to wit:

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[DrummerDeanna]

I am going to just stay away from this thread. LOL. I am too involved with Real Property, Will Trusts and Estates, Commercial Law, Graphic Design, and Survey of Math...to get into a debate that a see NEVER ending. This tends to be a touchy subject.

All I have to say is, he isn't writing a law to make us ALL pray on that day! And also a country was founded on the notion that are rights are a gift from "our creator"...so I think it's sort of given that the head of the country can mention "Almighty God" or "Our Creator" :shrug:

Ok, I'm going away from this thread now.... :D


Well Geez Louise - Hell MUST be freezing over because we seem to agree on something again...'


I agree - it's not like he's making it LAW that people pray - there's no penalty for not praying- no one will chastise you (not anyone that matters anyway) if you don't pray :shrug:

Now if he enacted a law COMMANDING that all Americans pray his way -then ok there would be a problem.

[dissention]

Now if he enacted a law COMMANDING that all Americans pray his way -then ok there would be a problem.

Calling upon "all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is problem enough.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

What a cop out and typical for you - when faced with facts you either retreat or spin it to Clinton :rolleyes:

Oh Jesus. (ah...kinda fits the theme...huh?)

And then you have to go and say stuff like that. I was actually being very serious. You know some of us actually have lives outside of the ledge...so I can't devote all of my time to this.

And then you have to go all the way back to the thread, which is dead now, where I answered every single one of your questions, with facts and links...hell...even charts and graphs. But in return you never answered my question and I watched as the thread faded away. You keep complaining that I don't support my opinions with facts, yet when I do, it's not good enough and you run away from the thread all together.

[LongBlackScarf]

I agree - it's not like he's making it LAW that people pray - there's no penalty for not praying.


Oh, am pretty sure that all of Bush's sheep will feel they WILL be struck down by "Almighty God" if they DON'T pray. This is just his way of continuing to manipulate the American people...most of whom believe in this stuff; most of whom are "Christians" just like himself. :rolleyes: What makes me the most ill is THIS aspect of his wanting Americans to pray all day. Again, what good does he think it is going to do? How people can think it will change the way the planet is destined to operate!

[strandinthewind]

Calling upon "all Americans to pray to Almighty God" is problem enough.

People just cannot see that that phrase is a reaffirming of "their" belief that to be a good American, you must be a Christian. I mean he says "all Americans" - I get that it is not a law, but it still is a slap in the face to those who do not believe in that. Again, if he had said the alternate things discussed above, it would have been fine. But, he just can't resist the insult.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. [QUOTE]

my point.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

[strandinthewind]

Oh Jesus. (ah...kinda fits the theme...huh?)

And then you have to go and say stuff like that. I was actually being very serious. You know some of us actually have lives outside of the ledge...so I can't devote all of my time to this.

And then you have to go all the way back to the thread, which is dead now, where I answered every single one of your questions, with facts and links...hell...even charts and graphs. But in return you never answered my question and I watched as the thread faded away. You keep complaining that I don't support my opinions with facts, yet when I do, it's not good enough and you run away from the thread all together.

You didn't answer squat with any reason or fact to support you - again, if the military was in such shambles, how did W ever manage the campaigns in Afgan and Iraq - much less the fact that W did NOTHING to "rebuild" the allegedly fallen military prior to 9/11. Nice try though - actuall, it was not even a nice try, it was rather pathetic.

[strandinthewind]

my point.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

Yes, and that is a general statement as almost all religions have Creators. They did not say "Almighty God," which mostly is the Judeo-Christian God. But, you, of course, apparently take that to mean that high sign to the Christians I referred to earlier. Have you ever read the documents surrounding the creation of the DOI and the Const. They purposefully excluded any discussion of religion in any specific terms because they thought govt. has no business in religion.

[dissention]

my point.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

I don't know about you, but my parents are the ones who created me; not some supernatural entity floating about in the clouds over my head.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You didn't answer squat with any reason or fact to support you - again, if the military was in such shambles, how did W ever manage the campaigns in Afgan and Iraq - much less the fact that W did NOTHING to "rebuild" the allegedly fallen military prior to 9/11. Nice try though - actuall, it was not even a nice try, it was rather pathetic.

Nice try bud...sissy, I mean, liberal taunting doesn't work! Go back and reevaluate that thread...read all of my posts, and the links that are contained in each. You will see that I answered ALL of your questions and you avoided my one request. I'm not going to start this debate with you here. If you have issues with it...then bring the thread back to life.

[DrummerDeanna]

Oh, am pretty sure that all of Bush's sheep will feel they WILL be struck down by "Almighty God" if they DON'T pray. This is just his way of continuing to manipulate the American people...most of whom believe in this stuff; most of whom are "Christians" just like himself. :rolleyes: What makes me the most ill is THIS aspect of his wanting Americans to pray all day. Again, what good does he think it is going to do? How people can think it will change the way the planet is destined to operate!


Actually prayer is an incredibly powerful thing. No one is asking for prayers to reverse the affects of the storm - or to stop storms.

You obviously don't understand the purpose and power of prayer. To each their own.

And yes - I was created by an entity bigger than my parents - bigger than all of us -

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"....Nick Cage, City of Angels.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't know about you, but my parents are the ones who created me; not some supernatural entity floating about in the clouds over my head.

If you honestly think that is what they intended that statement to mean...you have lost what is left of you mind.

[strandinthewind]

Nice try bud...sissy, I mean, liberal taunting doesn't work! Go back and reevaluate that thread...read all of my posts, and the links that are contained in each. You will see that I answered ALL of your questions and you avoided my one request. I'm not going to start this debate with you here. If you have issues with it...then bring the thread back to life.

I have no issues with it and I let that thread and the illogical and unsupported arguments you in it stand. Again, you never rely on facts - so you spin it and then, apparently in this thread now resort to name calling. How pathetic.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Actually prayer is an incredibly powerful thing. No one is asking for prayers to reverse the affects of the storm - or to stop storms.

You obviously don't understand the purpose and power of prayer. To each their own.

And yes - I was created by an entity bigger than my parents - bigger than all of us -

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"....Nick Cage, City of Angels.

Great post. I agree, prayer is actually the most powerful thing that any of us as humans can ever do. To have that connection to the divine....powerful.

Disclaimer: The above observation on prayer was not intended for liberal atheist but only to those who believe in God.

[strandinthewind]

If you honestly think that is what they intended that statement to mean...you have lost what is left of you mind.

Well, then thrill us with your acumen and tell us what they meant. BTW - please support your assertions with facts.

[dissention]

Actually prayer is an incredibly powerful thing. No one is asking for prayers to reverse the affects of the storm - or to stop storms.

You obviously don't understand the purpose and power of prayer. To each their own.

And yes - I was created by an entity bigger than my parents - bigger than all of us -

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"....Nick Cage, City of Angels.

And that's you. I see no purpose in the POTUS forcing his beliefs in God onto others. Imagine if you were a Christian taxpayer in a democracy overpopulated by atheists, and that you were told by that government on a regular basis that God did not exist. Chances are that you wouldn't be very receptive or enthused about hearing such things from the government you're helping to fund. I'd be willing to bet that you'd be of the mind that the government shouldn't be saying those things so that all people of different beliefs would be respected.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I have no issues with it and I let that thread and the illogical and unsupported arguments you in it stand. Again, you never rely on facts - so you spin it and then, apparently in this thread now resort to name calling. How pathetic.

This is pointless, and I am not the one who has resorted to name calling. What name did I call you exactly?

Bud...??

I'm sorry, I just have no compassion. Can you ever forgive me?

[strandinthewind]

Actually prayer is an incredibly powerful thing. No one is asking for prayers to reverse the affects of the storm - or to stop storms.

You obviously don't understand the purpose and power of prayer. To each their own.

And yes - I was created by an entity bigger than my parents - bigger than all of us -

"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"....Nick Cage, City of Angels.

I do not think anyone is saying that you do not have to believe that prayer is a bad thing. I think they are saying that to them it is not a tangible benefit. But, that is not the point. The point of this thread is should the govt. call upon all Americans to pray to the Almighty Creator and is a slap in the face to those who do not believe. I think it is.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Well, then thrill us with your acumen and tell us what they meant. BTW - please support your assertions with facts.

I think, that if you dig deep enough, you can pretty much draw your on conclusions as to what that meant by that statement.

[DrummerDeanna]

And that's you. I see no purpose in the POTU forcing his beliefs in God onto others. Imagine if you were a Christian taxpayer in a democracy overpopulated by atheists, and that you were told by that government on a regular basis that God did not exist. Chances are that you wouldn't be very receptive or enthused about hearing such things from the government you're helping to fund. I'd be willing to bet that you'd be of the mind that the government shouldn't be saying those things so that all people of different beliefs would be respected.


I agree that religion has no place in government - but I'm also aware of who are president is....

But I don't see it him "forcing" his views on people....:shrug:

[strandinthewind]

This is pointless, and I am not the one who has resorted to name calling. What name did I call you exactly?

Bud...??

I'm sorry, I just have no compassion.

I think "sissy" qualifies - but you knew that already - but, if you like, we can let the moderators determine that.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I think "sissy" qualifies - but you knew that already - but, if you like, we can let the moderators determine that.

I called your TAUNTING "sissy"...not you.

If you are going to go on that standard then you called me "pathetic"

[strandinthewind]

I agree that religion has no place in government - but I'm also aware of who are president is....

But I don't see it him "forcing" his views on people....:shrug:

With all due respect :wavey: - then why did he say "all Americans" and use the specific term "Almighty God" - when he could have be more general as noted above. So, I get what you are saying in that it is not a law, etc. - but it is still rude.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

With all due respect :wavey: - then why did he say "all Americans" and use the specific term "Almighty God" - when he could have be more general as noted above. So, I get what you are saying in that it is not a law, etc. - but it is still rude.

Lock him up and throw away the key now! The President came off as rude to a group of people. :shocked:

[dissention]

I agree that religion has no place in government - but I'm also aware of who are president is....

That's just bad logic. Because we have a fundie for a president, it makes it okay for him to make such statements? Would you feel the same way if we had an atheist president who said not to pray to Almighty God because he didn't exist and to just do something tangible to help instead? If religion has no place in government, why do you have no problem with the head of the government telling "all Americans to pray to Almighty God"?

But I don't see it him "forcing" his views on people....:shrug:

"I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God" :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I called your TAUNTING "sissy"...not you.

If you are going to go on that standard then you called me "pathetic"

No, that is not what you meant. You said "Nice try bud...sissy" - I 'll let that just speak for itself.

Conversely, I specifically referred to your argument as pathetic, which it was because, as I mentioned, you never support anything with facts.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No, that is not what you meant. You said "Nice try bud...sissy" - I 'll let that just speak for itself.

Conversely, I specifically referred to your argument as pathetic, which it was because, as I mentioned, you never support anything with facts.

OMG. That is not what I meant at all!

I said...."sissy, I mean liberal taunting"

sorry If I did not make that clear.

[strandinthewind]

Lock him up and throw away the key now! The President came off as rude to a group of people. :shocked:

It is unsurprising that you do not care how rude the Pres. is to a certain sect. of Americans. BTW - exactly where in the DOI or the Const. does it say one has to be a Christian to be a good American, which is what I think you are implying.

[DrummerDeanna]

That's just bad logic. Because we have a fundie for a president, it makes it okay for him to make such statements? Would you feel the same way if we had an atheist president who said not to pray to Almighty God because he didn't exist and to just do something tangible to help instead? If religion has no place in government, why do you have no problem with the head of the government telling "all American to pray to Almighty God"?



No - I'm not saying that makes it ok - but what is going to be done about it? NOTHING! That's just who he is - we have three more years of it to deal with - it's what he believes - what are you gonna do?

If there were an atheist President (which polls have historically shown that it'd be really tough for an atheist to be elected to office) and doing the same thing - well it would equally suck - but again - what is one to do??






"I call upon all Americans to pray to Almighty God" :shrug:

He's not mandating it - not making it law - it's a request - what I think is a heart-felt request.

Is it wrong and a slap in the face when Ledgies ask for LEdgies to pray for them, their friends and family?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It is unsurprising that you do not care how rude the Pres. is to a certain sect. of Americans. BTW - exactly where in the DOI or the Const. does it say one has to be a Christian to be a good American, which is what I think you are implying.

Where did I imply that?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Is it wrong and a slap in the face when Ledgies ask for LEdgies to pray for them, their friends and family?

Give the lady a prize...

Amy Grant tickets....front row! haha

[SuzeQuze]

OMG. That is not what I meant at all!

I said...."sissy, I mean liberal taunting"

sorry If I did not make that clear.

What do you mean by that? Who is taunting who? Equating liberal with sissy is rediculous and you know it can be offensive. If you don't see how that can be offensive then I am at a loss.

[strandinthewind]

. . . He's not mandating it - not making it law - it's a request . . .

I do not think anyone is arguing it is a law - which is the point you keep making. It is the use og "all Americans" that makes it sound like he thinks all Americans are or should be Christians, which they are not required to be. That is where the problem is for me. Again, this was carefully worded from the general "please pray for the victims" to "all Americans pray to Almighty God." That is sick IMO.

Is it wrong and a slap in the face when Ledgies ask for LEdgies to pray for them, their friends and family?

Of course not - they are not the Pres. of the US in an official act that is designed to insult and omit a certain sect of the population.

[dissention]

Is it wrong and a slap in the face when Ledgies ask for LEdgies to pray for them, their friends and family?

No Ledgie I know of holds public office where there is a clear distinction between church and state. And as far as I'm aware, a prayer doesn't necessarily involve God; a prayer is a fervent request or wish.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

What do you mean by that? Who is taunting who? Equating liberal with sissy is rediculous and you know it can be offensive. If you don't see how that can be offensive then I am at a loss.

No no. strandinthewind thought I was actually calling THEM (sorry don't know if you are male or female) a sissy...which is NOT what I meant. I was calling the "taunting" sissy, or liberal, either one.

[strandinthewind]

Where did I imply that?


When you said "Lock him up and throw away the key now! The President came off as rude to a group of people." - I took that implication.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

When you said "Lock him up and throw away the key now! The President came off as rude to a group of people." - I took that implication.

If, from that statement, you can somehow muster out "A non-Christian is not a good American"...then you can find anything!

[strandinthewind]

If, from that statement, you can somehow muster out "A non-Christian is not a good American"...then you can find anything!

Well, then, why is it okay for the Pres. to be rude to these people. He would never do that to Christians would he? That is where I was coming from.

[DrummerDeanna]

Of course not - they are not the Pres. of the US in an official act that is designed to insult and omit a certain sect of the population.


LOL - I don't even know why I'm arguing about this here....I believe what I believe and I hold those dear....


Though not a fan of the prez - I don't see his call to prayer as you see it above. I'm bowing out because nothing ever comes from these types of discussions except frustration and usually confusion (for me lol)...:wavey:

[dissention]

Well, then, why is it okay for the Pres. to be rude to these people. He would never do that to Christians would he? That is where I was coming from.

Honey, logic goes out the window when "God" comes into the fold.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

LOL - I don't even know why I'm arguing about this here....I believe what I believe and I hold those dear....


Though not a fan of the prez - I don't see his call to prayer as you see it above. I'm bowing out because nothing ever comes from these types of discussions except frustration and usually confusion (for me lol)...:wavey:

I applaud you for taking a stand! Brava. I agree, my original post on this thread stated that I was going to not get involved in this topic, and look what I have done! :laugh:

[The Tower]

If, from that statement, you can somehow muster out "A non-Christian is not a good American"...then you can find anything!
I thought you were leaving this thread and that you didn't have time for any of this?? :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

LOL - I don't even know why I'm arguing about this here....I believe what I believe and I hold those dear....


Though not a fan of the prez - I don't see his call to prayer as you see it above. I'm bowing out because nothing ever comes from these types of discussions except frustration and usually confusion (for me lol)...:wavey:

Well, I think you are coming at it from the angle of people are attacking your beliefs, which they, or certainly I, am not. I, and I think they, are saying that the wording was purposefully meant to imply all Americans are Christians who pray to the Almighty God, which I think is wrong and insulting. It is not way has any effect on my own beliefs as a Christian. Again, if he had called people to pray and left it at that, it would have been better.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I thought you were leaving this thread and that you didn't have time for any of this?? :shrug:

Oh, Tower, where have you been. I have missed all those hateful posts directed at me! What's a conservative to do?

I am leaving now, and I have every intention of leaving at the beginning, but then SOMEONE had to start taunting me..."Typical of you..." That usually hits a nerve...but I just don't care anymore. So I am on my way out of this thread! :wavey:

God Bless America...

but only those who believe in you, the others will get all huffy!

[dissention]

Again, if he had called people to pray and left it at that, it would have been better.

Exactly. Blanco asked for prayers and she refrained from throwing "God" into the mix.

[dissention]

God Bless America...

but only those who believe in you, the others will get all huffy!

In case you hadn't heard... :D

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/sns-ap-pledge-of-allegiance,1,2786246.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Atheist Gets Victory in 'Under God' Case
By DAVID KRAVETS
Associated Press Writer
Published September 15, 2005, 11:01 AM CDT

SAN FRANCISCO -- An atheist seeking to strike the words "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools has won a major battle in his quest to force the U.S. Supreme Court to take up the issue again.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton sided with atheist Michael Newdow in ruling Wednesday that the pledge's reference to God violates the rights of children in three school districts to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.

[Gwillaker]

Well yes, he could have left it at "pray" - but his is Dubya we're talking about - I mean there is nothing surprising in his declaration...

But I mean - in general - I think there is a general consensus (probably not among radical right-wingers) that "almighty God" is all-encompassing...that it's all the same God - with different paths to get to him....
Thats the way I see it, really. I'm fairly spiritual myself, but not in a dogmatic or sectarian way. I dont see any religion as having a "different God", they just use a different name.

[amber]

No - I'm not saying that makes it ok - but what is going to be done about it? NOTHING! That's just who he is - we have three more years of it to deal with - it's what he believes - what are you gonna do?


What are you going to do??!? You have to call the President to task when he does something that is innapropriate for the leader of America to do. And what he said is wholly innapropriate. Just because he believes it, doesn't mean he should say it, because he is supposed to be the President of everyone in the country, not just Christian people. When someone does something wrong, you can't just say "oh, well, what can we do, that's just how they are" - and to do so for a president is especially ill advised.

[reebokandlace]

Dubya REALLY pissed me off a few years ago right after 9/11 when he made the comment "....we are a Christian Nation...." I don't remember what speech he said it at and I was surprised people didn't make a big deal of it.....but it pissed me off.


".....We live in dark times and the ungodly sit on the thrones...."

[The Tower]

Oh, Tower, where have you been. I have missed all those hateful posts directed at me! What's a conservative to do?

I am leaving now, and I have every intention of leaving at the beginning, but then SOMEONE had to start taunting me..."Typical of you..." That usually hits a nerve...but I just don't care anymore. So I am on my way out of this thread! :wavey:
Good to know that you're grown up enough to resist being "taunted" by people. Good show!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out....

[SomeKindaMother]

Great post. I agree, prayer is actually the most powerful thing that any of us as humans can ever do. To have that connection to the divine....powerful.

Disclaimer: The above observation on prayer was not intended for liberal atheist but only to those who believe in God.

Why use the qualifier 'liberal' if not to goad? I happen to agree with your opinion of prayer, but quite honestly I've not seen a group of less Godly people than those running our country today. The mere fact that they would have the audacity to use "God" to manipulate people says it all. And Yes, I am Christian, and I do pray to Almighty God.

Kelly :)

[The Tower]

In case you hadn't heard... :D
Ya know- this whole "under god" bull**** in the pledge of allegiance is such a no-brainer I can't even believe that it is up for debate anymore.

[SuzeQuze]

Ya know- this whole "under god" bull**** in the pledge of allegiance is such a no-brainer I can't even believe that it is up for debate anymore.

It flows just fine as, "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all", even if its a crock! :lol:

[SuzeQuze]

Why use the qualifier 'liberal' if not to goad? I happen to agree with your opinion of prayer, but quite honestly I've not seen a group of less Godly people than those running our country today. The mere fact that they would have the audacity to use "God" to manipulate people says it all. And Yes, I am Christian, and I do pray to Almighty God.

Kelly :)

My friend sent me this Bible quote yesterday that illustrates your point in a way.

You cannot serve God and Money.
Lk 16:13 Mt 6:24

[wondergirl9847]

I don't know about you, but my parents are the ones who created me; not some supernatural entity floating about in the clouds over my head.

Where, do you believe, did your parents come from? Where did their parents come from? Where did THEIR parents come from? Etc.

I don't think God floats in the clouds over your head. LOL

[irishgrl]

My friend sent me this Bible quote yesterday that illustrates your point in a way.

You cannot serve God and Money.
Lk 16:13 Mt 6:24
Its actually "Mammon" not "money". And Jesus said "a man cannot serve two masters"

sigh............I guess I AM the only one hoping for the day off..............
anything for a holiday LOL!

[estranged4life]

yet another political BS involving the separation of church and state...Gee, I believe in God , but big "whoopdie f**kin doo" ya know?

I am not the most religious person on this planet (I have considered getting a tattoo with my favorite 3 lil 6's on it cause I love that number), but someone elses beliefs are their beliefs...Not mine to judge.

It never has or will bother me that the pledge of alligeance has the words "Under God"...The same way nativity scenes also never offend me.

I guess with old age I am starting to become more anti-political like everyone in my family :shrug:

[estranged4life]

Dubya REALLY pissed me off a few years ago right after 9/11 when he made the comment "....we are a Christian Nation...." I don't remember what speech he said it at and I was surprised people didn't make a big deal of it.....but it pissed me off.


".....We live in dark times and the ungodly sit on the thrones...."

and laughed at his foolish ass...He hasnt been to the Johnson's residence, Where there is one practicing "Wiccan" (Not me) and one 'un-catergorized" person (Me!).

Bush is such a Butt Tool...

Brian "Well, Blessed be..." j.

[LongBlackScarf]

Actually prayer is an incredibly powerful thing. .

I do believe in its health benefits. After all, it's meditation. So it lowers blood pressure and relaxes one. Takes a person out of him or herself for a while. I surely do not believe a Man In The Sky hears any of it.



"Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"....Nick Cage, City of Angels.

"Faith is believing what you know isn't true." ~~ Mark Twain

[dissention]

Where, do you believe, did your parents come from? Where did their parents come from? Where did THEIR parents come from? Etc.


I don't know. All I know is that I do not believe in creationism and never have, whereas I do believe in evolution. :)

[LongBlackScarf]

Where, do you believe, did your parents come from? Where did their parents come from? Where did THEIR parents come from?


Sexual intercourse between human man, and human woman. Sperm meeting egg. No ribs-a-poppin no begatting and begetting. If the story of Adam and Eve is true, then there must have been some WILD incest happening--seeing the couple had two sons. And even if they had a son and daughter, some mating within the family still would had to have gone on for this relationship in The Garden of Eden to have produced ALL MANKIND. What say you to that?

[mylittledemon]

Call it paranoia, call it right wing, call it religious (and I adamantly say that I am none of those things!) But I am fearful for the things that may happen to this country. I think ever since 9-11-01 that God has begun to remove his protection from this nation. Why? Well we've tried to remove God from every facet of our society. Kids can't pray in school...they want to remove the 10 Commandments from courthouses...no "Under God" in the pledge. Whether you want to believe it or not, the Declaration signed by our forefathers was founded on the Judeo-Christian ethics that guided them. I see this nation beginning to suffer; and its just the beginning. I hate having that impending feeling, I really do, but I feel it's true.

[markolas]

Call it paranoia, call it right wing, call it religious (and I adamantly say that I am none of those things!) But I am fearful for the things that may happen to this country. I think ever since 9-11-01 that God has begun to remove his protection from this nation. Why? Well we've tried to remove God from every facet of our society. Kids can't pray in school...they want to remove the 10 Commandments from courthouses...no "Under God" in the pledge. Whether you want to believe it or not, the Declaration signed by our forefathers was founded on the Judeo-Christian ethics that guided them. I see this nation beginning to suffer; and its just the beginning. I hate having that impending feeling, I really do, but I feel it's true.

Please tell me that's sarcasm. :distress:

[mylittledemon]

Please tell me that's sarcasm. :distress:


No I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not pushing my "beliefs" on other people. I'm NOT NOT NOT a religous person. But I have a core set of beliefs and values that guide me, and that's what I believe. I don't go around spreading what I feel...(correction I just did that in the post above)...but the topic was at hand so I spilled the beans on what I think. Take it for what it's worth...a grain of salt. What I have to say can't linger any longer than the breeze.

[GypsySorcerer]

and laughed at his foolish ass...He hasnt been to the Johnson's residence, Where there is one practicing "Wiccan" (Not me) and one 'un-catergorized" person (Me!).

Bush is such a Butt Tool...

Brian "Well, Blessed be..." j.

My favorite is your phrase "Burning Biblical Shrub." :laugh:

[markolas]

No I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not pushing my "beliefs" on other people. I'm NOT NOT NOT a religous person. But I have a core set of beliefs and values that guide me, and that's what I believe. I don't go around spreading what I feel...(correction I just did that in the post above)...but the topic was at hand so I spilled the beans on what I think. Take it for what it's worth...a grain of salt. What I have to say can't linger any longer than the breeze.

*shrug*

I just don't get the "God punishes people who don't stroke his ego" philosophy. Doesn't sound like a god I'd have much respect for.

[estranged4life]

*shrug*

I just don't get the "God punishes people who don't stroke his ego" philosophy. Doesn't sound like a god I'd have much respect for.

those who dont let go of his Eggo's :shrug: :lol:

[LongBlackScarf]

Great post. I agree, prayer is actually the most powerful thing that any of us as humans can ever do. To have that connection to the divine....powerful.



I consider myself an empowered woman already. I do not have to pray to a diety or believe in a creator of any sort to be a valuable, honest, loving and kind human being. Those who believe in God and get on their knees and babble out loud and jump up and down, and eat wafers, and recite stuff drummed into them since infancy in church are no more, or no less, important than I am in the scheme of this world or how it works. But they very often THINK they are. It's the "I believe, so I am better and more empowered than you are" bull****. It's the "non-believers are evil" bull****. :rolleyes:

[markolas]

I have to wonder how many of the people who see nothing wrong with Bush's little "suggestion" would have nine fits if he said "I call upon all Americans to chant the Odaimoku of the Lotus Sutra."

[mylittledemon]

*shrug*

I just don't get the "God punishes people who don't stroke his ego" philosophy. Doesn't sound like a god I'd have much respect for.

I never said God was punishing us. Don't confuse the two. It's no different than a parent would react to their child going down a dangerous path.

Take this for example: Let's say you've got a daughter and she gets heavy into drugs. She turns 18, moves out on her own, having unprotected sex with tons of people, selling and buying drugs. You get the idea? Talking hardcore ****. Well, let's say you've tried for months or years to "help" her straighten out. Then you realize, you can't make her change, or help her. She has to help herself. So you let her go. You're still "there" for her...you're still gonna be around, but you can't look after her anymore. Same concept.

[andymaycen]

If Bush really gave a hoot about the disaster in the Southeast, he should of asked everyone to get off their duff and donate something to the effort. Prayer does nothing for these folks involved with this disaster...taking some sort of action, donating $, time etc is really what would help.
If America is going down the tube it has nothing to do with God...it is due to all these folks who are supposedly representing the Almighty, especially right-winged nut bag fundies. There is nothing Christ-like about any of these folks even though all they do is invoke his name with all of their laws and business dealings so they can make more and more money and drive our country into the ground.
Of course, I should remember the Blinded-Bush follower rhetoric...it's all the fault of the gays, Clinton and women who want the freedom to make their own choice regarding the reproduction process. That is the real reason for the Hurricane disaster as well as 9-11 and the Tsunami in Asia. If Clinton was never in office and gays were rounded up and put into concentration camps then all the ****ing christians in this country would be satisfied and all the woes of society would disappear....yeah right.

[mylittledemon]

If gays were rounded up and put into concentration camps then all the ****ing christians in this country would be satisfied and all the woes of society would disappear....yeah right.


If any "Christians" you know have ever said that, or made you believe that's the way they felt, then they arent Christians.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Sexual intercourse between human man, and human woman. Sperm meeting egg. No ribs-a-poppin no begatting and begetting. If the story of Adam and Eve is true, then there must have been some WILD incest happening--seeing the couple had two sons. And even if they had a son and daughter, some mating within the family still would had to have gone on for this relationship in The Garden of Eden to have produced ALL MANKIND. What say you to that?

Ok, I have to jump back in here now, but then I'm really leaving again!

The bible is very clear in that after Adam and Eve were punished and kicked out of the garden, they were IN NO WAY the only ones to roam the earth. After Cane murdered Able he then relocated to another part of the earth where he met his wife and had children. Adam, Eve, Cane, Able and Seth were NOT the only humans to exist after Yahweh banished Adam and Eve from the Garden...

Ok, gone now.

[LongBlackScarf]

The bible is very clear.

The Bible is about as clear as a bucket full of Hershey's syrup. There are more contradictions and discrepancies than could ever be posted in one thread.



.
after Adam and Eve were punished and kicked out of the garden, they were IN NO WAY the only ones to roam the earth. After Cane murdered Able he then relocated to another part of the earth where he met his wife and had children.

Yeah. Sure. ;) Why isn't the creation of these "other people" discussed in the Babble? Could it be because it never happened? Hmmm!

[wondergirl9847]

I don't know. All I know is that I do not believe in creationism and never have, whereas I do believe in evolution. :)

Where the frick did we come from? Even if we came from a big bang of two particles or whatever...where did those particles come from?

I want answers!!!! :mad:

:laugh:

Sesly, it all comes down to having faith or not. Simple as that. I believe that God is a supernatural Being who created us. I have faith in my beliefs.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Where the frick did we come from? Even if we came from a big bang of two particles or whatever...where did those particles come from?

I want answers!!!! :mad:

:laugh:

Sesly, it all comes down to having faith or not. Simple as that. I believe that God is a supernatural Being who created us. I have faith in my beliefs.

I have always pondered on the same thing wondergirl...Where do atheist believe these particles came from? Or the big pile of primordial ooze?

[wondergirl9847]

Sexual intercourse between human man, and human woman. Sperm meeting egg. No ribs-a-poppin no begatting and begetting. If the story of Adam and Eve is true, then there must have been some WILD incest happening--seeing the couple had two sons. And even if they had a son and daughter, some mating within the family still would had to have gone on for this relationship in The Garden of Eden to have produced ALL MANKIND. What say you to that?

I say, to that, you are probably right, it was incest. Or something is left out in Genesis involving God created more people. I don't know. I asked my grandmother the same question and that woman has read the Bible a trazillion times, and she doesn't know either. LOL

[LongBlackScarf]

Where do atheist believe these particles came from? Or the big pile of primordial ooze?

I get unexplained "particles" and "primordial ooze" in the crisper of my fridge and never for one second feel compelled to praise a God for them.

[SuzeQuze]

I have to wonder how many of the people who see nothing wrong with Bush's little "suggestion" would have nine fits if he said "I call upon all Americans to chant the Odaimoku of the Lotus Sutra."

Dude, that's an awesome illustration of the point. :lol: Americans must pray to Krishna, Allah, Zeus, The Mother, etc...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The Bible is about as clear as a bucket full of Hershey's syrup. There are more contradictions and discrepancies than could ever be posted in one thread.

That is for another thread my dear.




Yeah. Sure. ;) Why isn't the creation of these "other people" discussed in the Babble? Could it be because it never happened? Hmmm!

The bible covers important and key facts. I am really not thinking God would want the writers to be obsessed with every facet of time from day one. For instance, if the bible was still a "work in progress" today...I don't think it would mention, say....the birth of you?

Key facts, the important ones...that is what is contained in the Bible.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I get unexplained "particles" and "primordial ooze" in the crisper of my fridge and never for one second feel compelled to praise a God for them.

avoidance of the question...

[wondergirl9847]

I consider myself an empowered woman already. I do not have to pray to a diety or believe in a creator of any sort to be a valuable, honest, loving and kind human being. Those who believe in God and get on their knees and babble out loud and jump up and down, and eat wafers, and recite stuff drummed into them since infancy in church are no more, or no less, important than I am in the scheme of this world or how it works. But they very often THINK they are. It's the "I believe, so I am better and more empowered than you are" bull****. It's the "non-believers are evil" bull****. :rolleyes:

I don't believe I'm more important or better than you because I'm a Christian. Yes, I realize there are people out there who DO think they are, but you steer clear of those folks. Non-believers as well as believers can have dark hearts. God knows your heart and He'll be the judge.

I rarely get on my knees to pray. The wafer and grape juice/wine is a representation, a ceremonial thing.

I wish everyone, even atheists, would go to various churches, so they could see what goes on in them. Go to a Jewish temple, a mosque, a Catholic mass, a Christian church, etc. It can be quite moving.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't believe I'm more important or better than you because I'm a Christian. Yes, I realize there are people out there who DO think they are, but you steer clear of those folks. Non-believers as well as believers can have dark hearts. God knows your heart and He'll be the judge.

I rarely get on my knees to pray. The wafer and grape juice/wine is a representation, a ceremonial thing.

I wish everyone, even atheists, would go to various churches, so they could see what goes on in them. Go to a Jewish temple, a mosque, a Catholic mass, a Christian church, etc. It can be quite moving.

Well the "wafer" and "wine" thing is a lot more if you Catholic...it is everything! lol.

[markolas]

Dude, that's an awesome illustration of the point. :lol: Americans must pray to Krishna, Allah, Zeus, The Mother, etc...

You know...there is a sect of Buddhism that believes if you're not chanting the Odaimoku then you're practicing a false religion and will fall into hell. Why should I believe the Christians and not them? :shrug:

[LongBlackScarf]

avoidance of the question...

What I said completely addressed the "question." You asked where athiests think these things come from. I basically said that substances occur in nature...all the time...for which there appears to be no source. I can say "bacteria" is a good place to start. All life began, in the sea, with one celled organisms. It's call EVOLUTION. Just what was God doing before he decided to wave his arms about and create the entire world?? How long was he hanging out "up there"...and WHERE DID HE COME FROM??

[Brwn_eyes0511]

What I said completely addressed the "question." You asked where athiests think these things come from. I basically said that substances occur in nature...all the time...for which there appears to be no source. I can say "bacteria" is a good place to start. All life began, in the sea, with one celled organisms. It's call EVOLUTION. Just what was God doing before he decided to wave his arms about and create the entire world?? How long was he hanging out "up there"...and WHERE DID HE COME FROM??

Well there is a difference here. Us Christians rely on faith. Atheist do not believe in such, so explain to me where this ooze came from? Where did nature come from? Where did it all begin? How did it all start?

[LongBlackScarf]

Go to a Jewish temple, a mosque, a Catholic mass, a Christian church, etc. It can be quite moving.

I have done all these things. I was a Christian. Then I decided not to believe what I though were silly things anymore, like virgins waking up pregnant, and realizes that I was the captain of my own ship and I could live a responsible and caring life without a diety in it. Doesn't get much easier than that. And by the way, I love reading about other faiths, especially the Jewish faith. And I watch all historical shows on religion on the various TLC type channels. So...atheists are not dummies, and a GREAT percentage of us WERE some religion at one time or another. Christy...all babies are born atheists. It's only what they are TAUGHT that makes them a certain religion. They have no concept of Jesus, or anything while they are sucking pacifiers or playing with building blocks. :)

[LongBlackScarf]

Well there is a difference here. Us Christians rely on faith. Atheist do not believe in such, so explain to me where this ooze came from? Where did nature come from? Where did it all begin? How did it all start?

Most people who are NOT creationists believe in The Big Bang Theory. Surely you attended basic science classes in school, so I will let you go on the internet and read all about it. As I stated, it's evolution. And that doesn't mean ape to man. It begins with one-celled creatures, and goes onwards and upwards from there over BILLIONS of years. I suppose you do not believe in dinosaurs, correct?? Or did "God" create them for fun, and then got sick of them, killed them off and made Adam and Eve?? Why are Adam and Eve always depicted with belly buttons??

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Most people who are NOT creationists believe in The Big Bang Theory. Surely you attended basic science classes in school, so I will let you go on the internet and read all about it. As I stated, it's evolution. And that doesn't mean ape to man. It begins with one-celled creatures, and goes onwards and upwards from there over BILLIONS of years. I suppose you do not believe in dinosaurs, correct?? Or did "God" create them for fun, and then got sick of them, killed them off and made Adam and Eve?? Why are Adam and Eve always depicted with belly buttons??

I'm very well aware of what the Big Bang Theory is too. I also believe it...God said BANG and then there was life! :xoxo:

But seriously. There are major flaws in the Big Bang Theory. What caused this bang? Where exactly did this all begin? NONE of that, from what I understand or what I have read, is explained.

And I have no freakin' clue why they are depicted with belly buttons? Artistic freedom...who the hell knows? lol :)

[wondergirl9847]

You asked where athiests think these things come from. I basically said that substances occur in nature...all the time...for which there appears to be no source. I can say "bacteria" is a good place to start. All life began, in the sea, with one celled organisms. It's call EVOLUTION. Just what was God doing before he decided to wave his arms about and create the entire world?? How long was he hanging out "up there"...and WHERE DID HE COME FROM??

I believe God has always been. That's where the faith comes in. Where did the sea come from or the one-celled organism?

I see where you are coming from, if we can believe that God always existed, then why not organisms or the sea. Faith. I have faith. I've seen miracles and I believe it in my heart, that's all. :)

[wondergirl9847]

Christy...all babies are born atheists. It's only what they are TAUGHT that makes them a certain religion. They have no concept of Jesus, or anything while they are sucking pacifiers or playing with building blocks. :)

That would be an excellent experiment!! Raising a child without teaching them ANY type of religion or faith. That type of thing fascinates me.

Of course, people are taught to be racists and hate-mongers. Babies aren't born hating either. ;) We have to be taught things, or we will be a bunch of dumb-dumbs. LOL

[wondergirl9847]

I suppose you do not believe in dinosaurs, correct?? Or did "God" create them for fun, and then got sick of them, killed them off and made Adam and Eve?? Why are Adam and Eve always depicted with belly buttons??

Good question. I figure because nobody has a photo of them, and that's just for art sake. They would look wierd without belly buttons, wouldn't they? LOL!!

I believe dinos did roam the earth...and probably early on while man was here.

[LongBlackScarf]

I'm very well aware of what the Big Bang Theory is too. I also believe it...God said BANG and then there was life! But seriously. There are major flaws in the Big Bang Theory. What caused this bang? Where exactly did this all begin? NONE of that, from what I understand or what I have read, is explained.

But the Life and Times of God are fully explained in the bible. :rolleyes: Where did God come from? I know..."I have faith He was always there..." That's the pat answer. You will demand I tell you about the origins of ooze and dust (most proven by science, and actual physical experimentation, and exploration), but "God was just ALWAYS THERE!" That's absolute avoidance of the questions...namely, what was he "up to" before he suddenly felt all exciteable and created the world in 7 days. How long was he "hangin' around up there" prior to the "and there was light" day?

[LongBlackScarf]

That would be an excellent experiment!! Raising a child without teaching them ANY type of religion or faith. That type of thing fascinates me.

Experiment?? People raise kids like this every single day! There are atheist or agnostic parents who do *not* introduce any form of religion into their families. They will often allow the child to make religious decisions when the kid's mind is fully formed. Not drumming stuff into them before they've had any life experience. The parents teach all the sound moral attitudes that are important, they just don't feel a need to attach a diety to them. One does not "need" a religion to be a good person. You do see that, yes??

[Brwn_eyes0511]

But the Life and Times of God are fully explained in the bible. :rolleyes: Where did God come from? I know..."I have faith He was always there..." That's the pat answer. You will demand I tell you about the origins of ooze and dust (most proven by science, and actual physical experimentation, and exploration), but "God was just ALWAYS THERE!" That's absolute avoidance of the questions...namely, what was he "up to" before he suddenly felt all exciteable and created the world in 7 days. How long was he "hangin' around up there" prior to the "and there was light" day?

First of all you have to get your facts straight. The world was created in 6 days, and no one is really sure what a "day" means. This was before the concept of time...so who's to say a day was not the equivalent to one million years? But you are right about the answer of "where did God come from?" I can't answer that based on anything other than faith, because that is what I have...faith.

But I do know one thing. I would rather live my life like there was a God, die and be disappointed...versus living my life like there was no God, die and find out I was wrong. Like the saying "If you are living like there is no God...YOU BETTER BE RIGHT!"

[wondergirl9847]

I meant, no religion, no atheism, no agnosticism (sp? LOL), nothing at all.

Actually, there are probably tribes in Africa or somewhere in the world that has never heard of God, but they may have their own belief in some Higher Power. I dunno. :shrug:

[LongBlackScarf]

I believe dinos did roam the earth...and probably early on while man was here.


But dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible in relation to Adam and Eve and the creation, so according to your faith, this is impossible. And according to science and...forgive me....just basic common sense....dinosaurs and man did not co-exist as they did in "The Flintstones." You do see the absurdity in that?? I hope so..... :distress:

[dissention]

The Bible is about as clear as a bucket full of Hershey's syrup.

That literally made me laugh out loud.

[dissention]

Well the "wafer" and "wine" thing is a lot more if you Catholic...it is everything! lol.

I always thought the "wafers" tasted like those styrofoam lunch trays and the "wine" was simply grape juice.

[wondergirl9847]

One does not "need" a religion to be a good person. You do see that, yes??

Of course you can be a good and decent person without believing in God. I never said the opposite. Religion and belief in God are two different things to me. I don't follow a religion, I don't even attend church anymore, but consider myself a Christian. There are wonderful, good people in the world who don't acknowledge God. You are free to believe what you want, I choose to believe in Him.

I was friends with a guy who was atheist. After 9-11, I lost contact with him though. :( We were pretty close and talked about our beliefs quite a bit.

I just thought of something hilarious. Rowan Atkinson did a stand up show quite a few years ago. All I remember of one of the skits is him dressed as the devil in a Hugh Hefner smoking jacket, reading off various names of people or groups. He goes "Christians...I need you all to come over here and stand. Yes, I'm sorry, the Jews were right." BWAH!!!

[LongBlackScarf]

Like the saying "If you are living like there is no God...YOU BETTER BE RIGHT!"

Once again, you are attaching the concept of "goodness" and "morality" to having to believe in a God; if you don't believe in God, you must be a horrid, wicked sinner. Which, of course is utter nonsense and harkens back to my original statements about guilt, and the power of "religion" to make people fearful, and make them feel like **** for not believing. Fortunately, I got over that. Especially the God Was Always There Theory. That doesn't hold water for me. That a "man" was up in the sky forever until he suddenly made his badass self known. No. Too silly.

[wondergirl9847]

But dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible in relation to Adam and Eve and the creation, so according to your faith, this is impossible. And according to science and...forgive me....just basic common sense....dinosaurs and man did not co-exist as they did in "The Flintstones." You do see the absurdity in that?? I hope so..... :distress:

Dino bones in museums, tracks in Glen Rose, Texas, etc.....that proves, to me, that they existed. Is all of that fake?

I never said that whatever is not mentioned in the Bible never existed. :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

Why is this being argued as though atheists are going to be questioned into a corner until they realise the flaws in logic?

I'm not trying to force my beliefs down anyone's throat or miraculously change minds, I'm discussing why I believe in what I believe in. I don't think anyone here will change their minds.

Nobody has been called names or anything, we are just having "conversation". :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

That a "man" was up in the sky forever until he suddenly made his badass self known. No. Too silly.

God is not a man. When the Bible says, we were made in His image. I don't think it's meant to be taken literally. I don't physically look like God and neither did Adam. I think it means that Adam was perfect, without fault, like God is. God, to me, is a supernatural Being, perhaps a light, an energy or something. I dunno.

I gotta go to bed, unfortunately. Going on vacation, but I hope this thread is kept alive with great, NON-HATEFUL discussion for when I get home next week. :)

Night!!!

[LongBlackScarf]

I always thought the "wafers" tasted like those styrofoam lunch trays .

I have some bad news for you. If you chewed a wafer enough to know it tasted like a styrofoam lunch tray, then you are going to hell. Pack your bags now, and don't forget your asbestos underpants. You were supposed to let the body of Jesus "melt" on your tongue. Too late now! But it was really nice knowing yah!! :xoxo:

[dissention]

I have some bad news for you. If you chewed a wafer enough to know it tasted like a styrofoam lunch tray, then you are going to hell. Pack your bags now, and don't forget your asbestos underpants. You were supposed to let the body of Jesus "melt" on your tongue. Too late now! But it was really nice knowing yah!! :xoxo:

Meh, I was scolded for doing it, anyway. I had a second asshole ripped open on me for drinking that juice and eating that lunch tray without having had communion. I was literally bitched out in front of everyone. They had nothing to worry about, though, because it wasn't as if I ever wanted seconds. :laugh:

[LongBlackScarf]

God is not a man. ]!

This is one of the most amazing things I have heard a Christian say, and surely this is your own opinion. Because if God is NOT a man, I haven't a CLUE as to why he's referred to as "The Father." And why would Jesus say God was his "father." And how would he impregnate Mary had he not possessed a penis? :rolleyes:

[wondergirl9847]

Just one more thing, why is it okay to belittle and make jokes about our faith? That's been done a lot lately around here, it seems. :(

Sesly, going to bed now. :rolleyes:

[LongBlackScarf]

Sesly:

What does that word mean??

[DavidMn]

I know I'm a little late on this one, but why cant they just one nation, under YOUR god? that would make it more democratic it would seem to me. Who knows?

[dissention]

God is not a man. When the Bible says, we were made in His image. I don't think it's meant to be taken literally. I don't physically look like God and neither did Adam. I think it means that Adam was perfect, without fault, like God is. God, to me, is a supernatural Being, perhaps a light, an energy or something. I dunno.

I gotta go to bed, unfortunately. Going on vacation, but I hope this thread is kept alive with great, NON-HATEFUL discussion for when I get home next week. :)

Night!!!

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but thanks for your input, anyway. As opposite as we are, you always have something substantial to say in these types of threads.

[irishgrl]

First of all you have to get your facts straight. The world was created in 6 days, and no one is really sure what a "day" means.

wrong. look at Genesis again. God created the greater(sun) and lesser(moon) lights, and the Bible says, "the evening and the morning were the first day". so, a day is a regular 24 hours.

[irishgrl]

This is one of the most amazing things I have heard a Christian say, and surely this is your own opinion. Because if God is NOT a man, I haven't a CLUE as to why he's referred to as "The Father." And why would Jesus say God was his "father." And how would he impregnate Mary had he not possessed a penis? :rolleyes:

actually, Genesis says "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was WITH God". Many scholars have interpreted the "Word" as being the female aspect, and some say Jesus has referred to HIMSELF as the Word. Jesus has also said: "I and My Father are One". two halves of the same whole in a sense...I happen to prefer the explanation that the "word" was the female aspect because God created things as male and female. God knew the female aspect was a necessary compliment to his "male" energy (IMO!)

[GypsySorcerer]

actually, Genesis says "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was WITH God". Many scholars have interpreted the "Word" as being the female aspect, and some say Jesus has referred to HIMSELF as the Word. Jesus has also said: "I and My Father are One". two halves of the same whole in a sense...I happen to prefer the explanation that the "word" was the female aspect because God created things as male and female. God knew the female aspect was a necessary compliment to his "male" energy (IMO!)
I think of God as masculine and feminine ..... both Mother God and Father God in one essence. :)

[irishgrl]

I think of God as masculine and feminine ..... both Mother God and Father God in one essence. :)

yes. a better way of saying what I was getting at. "God" contains BOTH male and female IMO. The Bible differentiates, but at least it mentions God wasnt "alone". Remember too that the meaning can be altered by the translation. I still believe that "God" is male/female. As is every species on the planet. (yes I know there are some hermophroditic species, but even they require a partner to reproduce...Im thinking worms here.....)

[LongBlackScarf]

I think of God as masculine and feminine ..... both Mother God and Father God in one essence. :)

If this is so, then gay marriage should be sanctified! :) Didn't Jesus say on the cross "Father why hast thou forsaken me?" So my interpretation of "God" was that "he" was always a male, capable of impregnating a female (virgin youngster). The male/female as God theory gives us a whole new book with the probable title Jesus Has Two Mommies. :shrug:

[GypsySorcerer]

yes. a better way of saying what I was getting at. "God" contains BOTH male and female IMO. The Bible differentiates, but at least it mentions God wasnt "alone". Remember too that the meaning can be altered by the translation. I still believe that "God" is male/female. As is every species on the planet. (yes I know there are some hermophroditic species, but even they require a partner to reproduce...Im thinking worms here.....)
Agreed. Based on my own research, I think the feminine Divine was purposefully left out of translations. All JMO, of course.

[irishgrl]

If this is so, then gay marriage should be sanctified! :) Didn't Jesus say on the cross "Father why hast thou forsaken me?" So my interpretation of "God" was that "he" was always a male, capable of impregnating a female (virgin youngster). The male/female as God theory gives us a whole new book with the probable title Jesus Has Two Mommies. :shrug:
actually I wouldnt have a problem with that :shrug:

My point is that both aspects are present. One is more manifest, but that is not to say that the other doesnt exist. Each of us has masculine and feminine qualities. The Male/Female dynamic is a constant throughout the Natural world, I have no problem extrapolating it to the Creator: As above/so below.

By the way, I'd remind you that the Bible was written by men of a Patriarchal mindset. That is why God is deemed Male in the Bible. But in Nature, we see that the Female gives birth. It doesnt follow that a Male God would Create life all by his lonesome IMO. Thus, the "mystery" of the phrase "and the Word was God, and the Word was WITH God". Who/What was "the Word" if not a female energy?

As a matter of fact, that is part of the problem the Catholic Church has with the Da Vinci Code, that it reminds us of the importance of the FEMALE contribution. Each needs the other to create. Its only the Desert Religions (Christian/Muslim/Jew) that seek to dominate women. Think about it. They all believe a woman should be subservient to a man. Other cultures had female dieties in their pantheon, why not the Desert Religions? There was a paradigm shift in attitude and I am not sure why............

as to your comment:
And how would he impregnate Mary had he not possessed a penis
The Bible says that Mary had an "immaculate conception" that is, (allegedly) without the act of sex (therefore, no penis required) Again, that is one of the mysteries of the Bible that believers are asked to take on faith.

a little off topic, this reminds me of the Ecstacy of Saint Theresa (I think it was her) who was supposedly visited by an Angel who had sex with her (according to some interpretations) The story IS interesting, her description of the encounter is odd to say the least! here is a link (http://home.actlab.utexas.edu/~chelsea/pages/stTeresaVision.htm)

I tell ya, some people have ALL the FUN! :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Once again, you are attaching the concept of "goodness" and "morality" to having to believe in a God; if you don't believe in God, you must be a horrid, wicked sinner. Which, of course is utter nonsense and harkens back to my original statements about guilt, and the power of "religion" to make people fearful, and make them feel like **** for not believing. Fortunately, I got over that. Especially the God Was Always There Theory. That doesn't hold water for me. That a "man" was up in the sky forever until he suddenly made his badass self known. No. Too silly.

Actually that is not what "the old saying" means.

What it means is, if you are currently living like there is no God...you better be right, for your sake! In other words, when you die...and let's say you find out that you were wrong and there really is a God...Well, I'd hate to be in your shoes. Therefore I find it more reasonable to live like there is a God then to live like there is no God. I'd rather die and be disappointed, then die and burn in the massive flames of hell for all eternity.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

This is one of the most amazing things I have heard a Christian say, and surely this is your own opinion. Because if God is NOT a man, I haven't a CLUE as to why he's referred to as "The Father." And why would Jesus say God was his "father." And how would he impregnate Mary had he not possessed a penis? :rolleyes:

If you are going to argue about a subject, please do some research before hand.

How about Christian 101 or better yet, Bible 101.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

wrong. look at Genesis again. God created the greater(sun) and lesser(moon) lights, and the Bible says, "the evening and the morning were the first day". so, a day is a regular 24 hours.

And they had those clocks ticking down even before time began.

Scripture recently found

Pre-Genesis 1:1
Prior to the dawn of time, Yahweh God said let there be a clock to institute time.

[irishgrl]

And they had those clocks ticking down even before time began.

Scripture recently found

Pre-Genesis 1:1
Prior to the dawn of time, Yahweh God said let there be a clock to institute time.

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to acknowledge that the Earth takes approximately 24 hours to complete a cycle....it hasnt changed since we started KEEPING time, therefore, it is logical to assume it has always taken that amount of time. Your sarcasm is a poor substitute for your original misstatement.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to acknowledge that the Earth takes approximately 24 hours to complete a cycle....it hasnt changed since we started KEEPING time, therefore, it is logical to assume it has always taken that amount of time. Your sarcasm is a poor substitute for your original misstatement.

You seem to be missing my point here. If there was no EARTH in the beginning TO make a complete cycle, then how is it that we know there was an actual time to measure?

[irishgrl]

You seem to be missing my point here. If there was no EARTH in the beginning TO make a complete cycle, then how is it that we know there was an actual time to measure?

no, your original statement was that nobody knew how long a day was. Even if the Sun and Moon were created first, it makes no difference to the length of the day when the Earth WAS created. At that point, the cycle begins, night/day, night/day which is now, what it was then, approximately 24 hours. This is where some people try to insert the idea that a "day" in "God's time" was equivalent to a century or a millenium in order to account for the geologic record and try and reconcile the Bible with fossils etc. IMO, the notion is absurd. A day is a day. A rose is a rose. and so on.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You'd rather die and be disappointed and then proceed to die again and burn in flames? How are you planning on dying twice? Aside from this, your lack of rationality is quite something. You're brainwashed actually if you believe that.

And your utter lack of comprehension is quite baffling, my dear friend from down under.

Let's try to break it down here...

I would rather live my life like there was a God; than live my life like there wasn't a God! Because If I die and find out there isn't one...I would just seize to exist and rot in a grave. But If I lived my life as an atheist and found out after death that I was wrong and he really did exist...I would have hell to pay...literally. Sort of a win/lose situation...get it now?

[David]

What it means is, if you are currently living like there is no God...you better be right, for your sake! In other words, when you die...and let's say you find out that you were wrong and there really is a God...Well, I'd hate to be in your shoes.We have at least three propositions here that should be examined individually:

1. God exists (or, God is) & has no plan for mankind.

2. God has a plan for mankind that is unknown to men.

3. God's plan for mankind is revealed in the Christian bible.

In terms of logical reasoning, what can we say about these propositions?

A. None of these propositions may be true.
B. All of these propositions are nonfalsifiable. (Nonfalsifiable claims contain nothing of either a provable or a disprovable nature in empirical terms; these claims may be true or false, but cannot be deduced through empirical data or evidence.)
C. Propositions 1 & 2 cannot both be true.
D. Propositions 1 & 3 cannot both be true.
E. Propositions 2 & 3 cannot both be true.

So you could believe Proposition 1 or Proposition 2, each of which is just as likely as Proposition 3, which is what you believe -- just as likely in the sense that there is no more empirical evidence disproving either Proposition 1 or Proposition 2 than there is disproving Proposition 3.

[strandinthewind]

First of all you have to get your facts straight . . . .

Hypocrite - you know no facts and you cannot cite to them :shrug:

Let's see - you will spinn this to Clinton or call me a sissy or speak Coulter jibberish - Modus Operandi de jour :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

If you are going to argue about a subject, please do some research before hand . . . .

Pot - kettle - black :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

We have at least three propositions here that should be examined individually:

1. God exists (or, God is) & has no plan for mankind.

2. God has a plan for mankind that is unknown to men.

3. God's plan for mankind is revealed in the Christian bible.

In terms of logical reasoning, what can we say about these propositions?

A. None of these propositions may be true.
B. All of these propositions are nonfalsifiable. (Nonfalsifiable claims contain nothing of either a provable or a disprovable nature in empirical terms; these claims may be true or false, but cannot be deduced through empirical data or evidence.)
C. Propositions 1 & 2 cannot both be true.
D. Propositions 1 & 3 cannot both be true.
E. Propositions 2 & 3 cannot both be true.

So you could believe Proposition 1 or Proposition 2, each of which is just as likely as Proposition 3, which is what you believe -- just as likely in the sense that there is no more empirical evidence disproving either Proposition 1 or Proposition 2 than there is disproving Proposition 3.

je t'aime :angel: :angel: :angel:

[strandinthewind]

Actually it is your lack of comprehension, and also your lack of grammar. . . .

Not only that - but most of the time he does not capitalize "Bible" - surely God shall smite him :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

no, your original statement was that nobody knew how long a day was. Even if the Sun and Moon were created first, it makes no difference to the length of the day when the Earth WAS created. At that point, the cycle begins, night/day, night/day which is now, what it was then, approximately 24 hours. This is where some people try to insert the idea that a "day" in "God's time" was equivalent to a century or a millenium in order to account for the geologic record and try and reconcile the Bible with fossils etc. IMO, the notion is absurd. A day is a day. A rose is a rose. and so on.

Forget it Mary - he cannot argue and support it with facts - I mean we are both nuts - but at least we support ourselves with facts :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Forget it Mary - he cannot argue and support it with facts - I mean we are both nuts - but at least we support ourselves with facts :shrug:

This tired excuse is getting rather old. I'm just going to start using the same tactic.

You just can't support IT with facts can you? :laugh:

side note: We were, incase you missed it, discussing the bible here...which according to most of you has no basis in "logic" or "fact" to begin with. So what is this about supporting IT with facts?

If you really would like to start a religious debate. I'm game. It happens to be my area of expertise. I have done a lot of Catholic/Christian apologetics lately.

[strandinthewind]

. . . . . I'm just going to start using the same tactic . . . .

Your going to START :laugh: Here's an idea - what did Coulter say :rolleyes: Your credibility is shot.

[strandinthewind]

Actually it is your lack of comprehension, and also your lack of grammar.

"I'd rather die and be disappointed, then die and burn in the massive flames of hell for all eternity."

The word "then" implies an addition or consequence and completely changes the meaning of the sentence. The word you are looking for to precede the comparison is "than".

I understood regardless. That statement is one from a brainwashed person. You have no idea how ridiculous that sounds. The concept of a God is a matter of personal belief, it exists only for those who believe it. Without the belief, there is no such thing and none of this risk you're referring to. That is not faith, you have been brainwashed into a belief through a fear that need not exist.

Maybe he'll just cite to Ann Coulter and expect us all to give up in light of her, not his, acumen :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Actually it is your lack of comprehension, and also your lack of grammar.

"I'd rather die and be disappointed, then die and burn in the massive flames of hell for all eternity."

The word "then" implies an addition or consequence and completely changes the meaning of the sentence. The word you are looking for to precede the comparison is "than".

I understood regardless. That statement is one from a brainwashed person. You have no idea how ridiculous that sounds. The concept of a God is a matter of personal belief, it exists only for those who believe it. Without the belief, there is no such thing and none of this risk you're referring to. That is not faith, you have been brainwashed into a belief through a fear that need not exist.

Last time I checked I wasn't writing a thesis my friend. However next time I shall put the spell and grammar check into action. Because when all else fails for your "argument" you result to "nit-picking" about my posts. Please...is your "argument" THAT weak.

And judging by your statements above, I still see you have completely missed the point.

And now, I think I will join the millions of other "brainwashed" Americans and hit the sack!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Your going to START :laugh: Here's an idea - what did Coulter say :rolleyes: Your credibility is shot.

And to think I pegged you as the most "open-minded" on the ledge. You are proving to be just the opposite...hell-bent on "mocking" me and calling me on "lies". This means I must be doing something right!

Why not try reading some of Ann's stuff sometime. You know actually READING her books and/or columns before drawing conclusions on how she "lies". I don't even know why I'm bothering. We are both starting to sound like a broken record...let me be the first to move on.

[Mari]

lol.. you're funny to talk about 'open minded'..

must not feed trolls, must not feed trolls.. sorry people.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

lol.. you're funny to talk about 'open minded'..

must not feed trolls, must not feed trolls.. sorry people.

Hey I'm not the liberal here. Aren't liberals supposed to be the party of "open minds" and "acceptance"...how far exactly does that "open mindedness” extended?

I think I have been on the ledge long enough to have already established I'm not a troll. But if one defines a "troll" as an conservative with a taste for schadenfreude, then color my hair blue and stick a jewel on my belly!

[strandinthewind]

And to think I pegged you as the most "open-minded" on the ledge. You are proving to be just the opposite...hell-bent on "mocking" me and calling me on "lies". This means I must be doing something right!

Why not try reading some of Ann's stuff sometime. You know actually READING her books and/or columns before drawing conclusions on how she "lies". I don't even know why I'm bothering. We are both starting to sound like a broken record...let me be the first to move on.

Your acumen is stunning :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

My argument that I do not believe in God and so shall have no fear of his wrath? Yes it is such a weak "argument" for me to present. Sigh, you win, I guess I'll be a good girl and go and fear the flames then.

Fear me - but not flames - unless I direct them at you - then lots of booze and tickels :xoxo:

[BombaySapphire3]

Actually that is not what "the old saying" means.

What it means is, if you are currently living like there is no God...you better be right, for your sake! In other words, when you die...and let's say you find out that you were wrong and there really is a God...Well, I'd hate to be in your shoes. Therefore I find it more reasonable to live like there is a God then to live like there is no God. I'd rather die and be disappointed, then die and burn in the massive flames of hell for all eternity.
So you .Smirky the Chimp and Pat Robertson are going to heaven.?..Sign me up for Hell! :]

[strandinthewind]

So you .Smirky the Chimp and Pat Robertson are going to heaven.?..Sign me up for Hell! :]

I think if Jesus were incarnate now - he would treat those two like the money changers in the Temple :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

My argument that I do not believe in God and so shall have no fear of his wrath? Yes it is such a weak "argument" for me to present. Sigh, you win, I guess I'll be a good girl and go and fear the flames then.

Well, that is all you had to say. So you do not believe in God. That is respect...well, acceptable anyways! Because you don't believe in God, then I suppose you have no flames to fear. "However, I do hope you are right and there is no God...what happens if you are wrong?"

What is quoted above is the point that I was trying to make. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no beef with atheist.

[strandinthewind]

Well, that is all you had to say. So you do not believe in God. That is respect...well, acceptable anyways! Because you don't believe in God, then I suppose you have no flames to fear. "However, I do hope you are right and there is no God...what happens if you are wrong?"

What is quoted above is the point that I was trying to make. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no beef with atheist.

and you have no point with the coherent.

[estranged4life]

..Sign me up for Hell! :]

what is it with people trying to take up space in my future permanent vacation home?? :shrug: :lol:

Brian "Doin' the backstroke in the burning lake of fire" j.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

and you have no point with the coherent.

You and I both are on a roll with the witty at 4:30 AM (at least for me)! And I have class in the morning :( . I really must be getting to bed.

'night all.

[strandinthewind]

You and I both are on a roll with the witty at 4:30 AM (at least for me)! And I have class in the morning :( . I really must be getting to bed.

'night all.

Wit - you give yourself airs :rolleyes:

[estranged4life]

I think if Jesus were incarnate now - he would treat those two like the money changers in the Temple :nod:

Jesus would give 'em a "Stone Cold Stunner" and stand over 'em and say "Jesus 3:16 done said I whup yer ass...And that's the bottom line cause Stone Cold "J" said so..." :lol:

Brian "Heaven can wait another day-Gamma Ray" j.

[strandinthewind]

Jesus would give 'em a "Stone Cold Stunner" and stand over 'em and say "Jesus 3:16 done said I whup yer ass...And that's the bottom line cause Stone Cold "J" said so..." :lol:

Brian "Heaven can wait another day-Gamma Ray" j.

and THAT Brian J. is why I wanna do this :xoxo: to you.

But, you wife would kick my ass :laugh:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Wit - you give yourself airs :rolleyes:

G'night to you too. :xoxo:

[Mari]

What are those 'liberals' he keeps talking about? I think it means quite a different thing over here.. but we're all commies, you know :laugh: Who don't believe in heaven nor hell so it seems I won't be joining any of you. Rats.

[Mari]

Hey I'm not the liberal here. Aren't liberals supposed to be the party of "open minds" and "acceptance"...how far exactly does that "open mindedness” extended?

I think I have been on the ledge long enough to have already established I'm not a troll. But if one defines a "troll" as an conservative with a taste for schadenfreude, then color my hair blue and stick a jewel on my belly!

Honey, I'm an Original BlackLedgie Troll (tm), I know one when I see one! Here's your blue paint ;)

[estranged4life]

and THAT Brian J. is why I wanna do this :xoxo: to you.

But, you wife would kick my ass :laugh:

She'd probably laugh and take a picture of it :lol:

Brian "The only person to have some hypnotized person acting as a member of N'Sync try to give me a lap dance :eek: ...Why does God constantly make me a lightning rod for such weirdness? Oh, I know...He has to keep me from developing too big an ego & keeps me in check by humoring Himself at my expense" j.

[estranged4life]

Honey, I'm an Original BlackLedgie Troll (tm), ;)

that and the owner of the great & original "Stevie Nicks Crossing" signature picture :nod:

Brian "Bahhh bahhh bahhhhh" j.

[Mari]

that and the owner of the great & original "Stevie Nicks Crossing" signature picture :nod:

Brian "Bahhh bahhh bahhhhh" j.

:lol:

It's multi-interpretable, isn't it!

[SuzeQuze]

You know...there is a sect of Buddhism that believes if you're not chanting the Odaimoku then you're practicing a false religion and will fall into hell. Why should I believe the Christians and not them? :shrug:

Personally I believe that all religions are "right". Everyone understands God in the way that they can. A way that encompasses their culture and heritage. But it is all the same god. If Bush had just asked for people to pray and not mentioned "Almighty God" that would have been so different because it connotes the Christian god of fire and brimstone as opposed to encompassing a more universal spirituality.

[irishgrl]

We have at least three propositions here that should be examined individually:

1. God exists (or, God is) & has no plan for mankind.

2. God has a plan for mankind that is unknown to men.

3. God's plan for mankind is revealed in the Christian bible.

In terms of logical reasoning, what can we say about these propositions?

A. None of these propositions may be true.
B. All of these propositions are nonfalsifiable. (Nonfalsifiable claims contain nothing of either a provable or a disprovable nature in empirical terms; these claims may be true or false, but cannot be deduced through empirical data or evidence.)
C. Propositions 1 & 2 cannot both be true.
D. Propositions 1 & 3 cannot both be true.
E. Propositions 2 & 3 cannot both be true.

So you could believe Proposition 1 or Proposition 2, each of which is just as likely as Proposition 3, which is what you believe -- just as likely in the sense that there is no more empirical evidence disproving either Proposition 1 or Proposition 2 than there is disproving Proposition 3.


this is an incomplete proposition, or a FALSE DILEMMA. You neglect to consider Proposition 4:
4. God may not exist
(not MY viewpoint, Im just noting it for the sake of argument)

you also ignore item B, which is actually the case IMO, that all of the propositions are non-falsifiable, in which case the entire argument is lopsided. In fact, Im not sure where you get Proposition 2 from the posts?
It seems to me that people have stated either that: they believe God exists or they do not (or are not sure). Of those that stated they believe he does exist, its my impression that they believe he DOES have a plan for us. (in fact, isnt that why God is important to us? to validate our existence? (to give a **** in other words?) If God exists and doesnt have a plan, then what is the point? If God doesnt exist, there obviously isnt a plan. If God exists and there is a plan, it makes sense to align ourselves with it to minimize friction and complications as we navigate through our lives.

I think the problem lies in which "plan" a person believes God actually has.
I sure as Hell dont believe in the fundies version of God's plan, but I do think God gives a ****, and that we are here for a reason. JMO.

[irishgrl]

Personally I believe that all religions are "right". Everyone understands God in the way that they can. A way that encompasses their culture and heritage. But it is all the same god. If Bush had just asked for people to pray and not mentioned "Almighty God" that would have been so different because it connotes the Christian god of fire and brimstone as opposed to encompassing a more universal spirituality.
or a God of Love.
The Old Testament God was Vengeful/Righteous/Jealous (as stated in the Bible in various place)
The New Testament God was a God of Love (as evidenced by Jesus' example and ONE and ONLY Commandment: Love your neighbor as yourself)


I agree with you: each person follows that path that is best for them, but in the end, all paths lead to God (or the Creator) IMO.

[SuzeQuze]

So you .Smirky the Chimp and Pat Robertson are going to heaven.?..Sign me up for Hell! :]

We'll all be there, at a table by the window, it will be a blast! :lol:

[SuzeQuze]

or a God of Love.
The Old Testament God was Vengeful/Righteous/Jealous (as stated in the Bible in various place)
The New Testament God was a God of Love (as evidenced by Jesus' example and ONE and ONLY Commandment: Love your neighbor as yourself)


I agree with you: each person follows that path that is best for them, but in the end, all paths lead to God (or the Creator) IMO.

Yes, a god of love. I agree with you too. And from now on, should I have a Bible related question, I am asking you. I had no idea you were so well versed with it. Me - not so much. I was raised pseudo-Catholic + mostly agnostic = very confusing.

[dissention]

Why not try reading some of Ann's stuff sometime. You know actually READING her books and/or columns before drawing conclusions on how she "lies".

I've read all of her books except for her last one. I read her columns for awhile, too, but it got to the point where my IQ couldn't handle getting so dangerously low. She doesn't deal in facts or the truth, she deals in making outrageous statements that she passes off as facts when they're anything but.

[SuzeQuze]

I've read all of her books except for her last one. I read her columns for awhile, too, but it got to the point where my IQ couldn't handle getting so dangerously low. She doesn't deal in facts or the truth, she deals in making outrageous statements that she passes off as facts when they're anything but.

I suspect strand has also read some of her stuff despite accusations to the contrary. I can't because I get so angry it just isn't healthy.

[irishgrl]

Yes, a god of love. I agree with you too. And from now on, should I have a Bible related question, I am asking you. I had no idea you were so well versed with it. Me - not so much. I was raised pseudo-Catholic + mostly agnostic = very confusing.
My mother is the real student, I just learned a lot from her. While I was growing up she studied Tao, Hindu, Buddhism, various "new age" ideas...in fact, anything that had to do with spirituality period! I really admire her mind, so inquisitive! At the same time, she was a master Astrologer, and has other metaphysical talents. But, her Bible is well loved, many notes in margins, many pages marked and she can come up with a Bible quote for just about anything!

Ive done some reading on my own, mostly about the history of Christianity, and various themes/schools of thought (for instance, there was a raging argument in the early Church as to whether Jesus was Divine or not. Also, the switch of the Sabbath from Saturday (as it was in Jesus' time) to Sunday as a result of Paul's influence) and on and on...........many things that were in the original books of the Bible were removed at the Fifth Ecumenical Council presided over by Constantine. Much of what was removed was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha. The Church calls these books heresy because they talk about Reincarnation and various other Metaphysical subjects that the early Church Fathers deemed dangerous to their power over the "flock"........if you ever want to PM me, go ahead :)

[David]

I think I have been on the ledge long enough to have already established I'm not a troll. But if one defines a "troll" as an conservative with a taste for schadenfreude, then color my hair blue and stick a jewel on my belly!The figurative "troll" in cyberspace isn't the blue-haired, bejeweled-bellied ogre that lives underneath bridges (which is meaningless in the context of online forums). It's derived from the sports-fishing technique in which a lure on a line is dragged through the water.

[chiliD]

The figurative "troll" in cyberspace isn't the blue-haired, bejeweled-bellied ogre that lives underneath bridges...

Or the wild-haired Scandinavian doll that can often be seen perched atop the eraser end of a #2 pencil. :D

[David]

God is not a man. When the Bible says, we were made in His image. I don't think it's meant to be taken literally. I don't physically look like God and neither did Adam. I think it means that Adam was perfect, without fault, like God is.Apparently, Adam wasn't perfect: he was obviously inclined to disobedience & susceptible to the lure of forbidden knowledge.

[strandinthewind]

My mother is the real student, I just learned a lot from her. While I was growing up she studied Tao, Hindu, Buddhism, various "new age" ideas...in fact, anything that had to do with spirituality period! I really admire her mind, so inquisitive! At the same time, she was a master Astrologer, and has other metaphysical talents. But, her Bible is well loved, many notes in margins, many pages marked and she can come up with a Bible quote for just about anything!

Ive done some reading on my own, mostly about the history of Christianity, and various themes/schools of thought (for instance, there was a raging argument in the early Church as to whether Jesus was Divine or not. Also, the switch of the Sabbath from Saturday (as it was in Jesus' time) to Sunday as a result of Paul's influence) and on and on...........many things that were in the original books of the Bible were removed at the Fifth Ecumenical Council presided over by Constantine. Much of what was removed was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha. The Church calls these books heresy because they talk about Reincarnation and various other Metaphysical subjects that the early Church Fathers deemed dangerous to their power over the "flock"........if you ever want to PM me, go ahead :)

The history of the Catholic Church shows a power struggle at first essentially within the Jewish Faith which considered it essentially a rouge faction gaining popularity, which was taking power for the true Jewish faith. When the separation happened, it became a power struggle between men to the demonization of anything and everything that got in their way. That power struggle included "formulating" the Gospel's, etc. They justified all of that by claiming that the people in power were guided by the hand of God. Sadly, that justification, while I believe true in some instances, was used by corrupt people to kill millions who stood in their way and they used it on a scared public mostly for power and money, not for the Glory of God.

Now that I think about it, W and his cronies are like the early Catholic Church :eek:

[David]

Kids can't pray in school.Prayer is something that occurs in the mind. Kids in school can do anything in their mind that their little hearts desire -- as all of us can, anywhere or at any time. There isn't a government in the world -- from the most lenient to the most authoritarian -- that can control what you think or whether you pray (short of injecting some mindbending or mood-altering drug into your veins).

Schools have no business organizing formal prayer time during the school day. Their job is to teach reading, writing & ciphering -- & there's precious little of that occurring, as it is.

[strandinthewind]

Prayer is something that occurs in the mind. Kids in school can do anything in their mind that their little hearts desire -- as all of us can, anywhere or at any time. There isn't a government in the world -- from the most lenient to the most authoritarian -- that can control what you think or whether you pray (short of injecting some mindbending or mood-altering drug into your veins).

Schools have no business organizing formal prayer time during the school day. Their job is to teach reading, writing & ciphering -- & there's precious little of that occurring, as it is.

ITA - but those in power know that the churches of the world have the flock so scared, that they can twist the bad idea of govt. sponsored religion into "those freaks are trying to take God away from you," which is just not trrue. There is no correlation between your faith and having the govt. tell you to pray.

[David]

I have always pondered on the same thing wondergirl...Where do atheist believe these particles came from?Formulating "beliefs" in the absence of evidence -- merely for the sake of having "answers" -- isn't necessary to go about one's business.

What's wrong with looking at something & wondering just how the hell it got there? Sometimes answers are long in coming, & sometimes they don't come at all.

[DrummerDeanna]

Christy...all babies are born atheists. It's only what they are TAUGHT that makes them a certain religion. They have no concept of Jesus, or anything while they are sucking pacifiers or playing with building blocks. :)


That's actually wrong...

If ALL babies were born atheists then there would be no religion...

How do you exlpain the fact that EVERY culture in this world has a religion? Has a path to God? It's somthing that is inate in humans - the want to find origins...

Some find origin in science - some in religion...it's what works for the individual.

I don't appreciate you calling The Bible "The Babble" could you please show a little bit more respect to the religious Ledies? We're not disrespecting your views.

[David]

actually, Genesis says "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was WITH God".Isn't that John 1:1 & not Genesis?

Besides, whose Genesis?

Search Google for all the various permutations & translations of the opening lines from what is commonly called Genesis, & you'll see what I mean.

[markolas]

Personally I believe that all religions are "right". Everyone understands God in the way that they can. A way that encompasses their culture and heritage. But it is all the same god. If Bush had just asked for people to pray and not mentioned "Almighty God" that would have been so different because it connotes the Christian god of fire and brimstone as opposed to encompassing a more universal spirituality.

Well, I was just pointing out that Christianity isn't the only religion that claims to exclusively possess the "truth," as it were. People trying to "prove" their respective religions are "true" are just engaging a pissing contest.

[strandinthewind]

That's actually wrong...

If ALL babies were born atheists then there would be no religion...

How do you exlpain the fact that EVERY culture in this world has a religion? Has a path to God? It's somthing that is inate in humans - the want to find origins...

Some find origin in science - some in religion...it's what works for the individual . . . .

I think the fact that religion and the ruling power were the same entity since the recorded history of mankind and many societies actually placed the title of a god on their ruler is telling. I think religion was used to control the people and that is why it has existed. I mean look at how W and his cronies use it now to to win. On paper, W's decisions as Pres. are a mostly complete failure. However, all he had to do was assert that evil gay people want to marry and that the D's want to take your religion away from you by not letting the govt. officially sanction prayer in school, etc. I mean he won mostly on these issues not his record. So, people cling to that concept that govt. and religion are the same thing, which is evident by W's call for "all Americans" to pray to "Almighty God" instead of just praying in general.

This is not to say individual faith of whatever kind is invalid. To me, that is sep. from organized religion and faith is very valid.

But, I think the point was that all babies are not born believing the tenets of organized religion.

[David]

By the way, I'd remind you that the Bible was written by men of a Patriarchal mindset.Harold Bloom -- admittedly no Biblical scholar or historian of antiquity -- thinks a very special woman wrote the so-called "J" strands of the Hebrew Bible. See his "Book of J" for a fascinating journey through the thoughts of a great textual critic of irony, stance & tone in the Hebrew Bible, & his bizarre but fascinating conclusions.
this reminds me of the Ecstacy of Saint Theresa (I think it was her) who was supposedly visited by an Angel who had sex with her (according to some interpretations)Is this the Saint Theresa that Joan Osborne wrote that song about?

[DrummerDeanna]

But, I think the point was that all babies are not born believing the tenets of organized religion.


I did not say that they were born to believe the tenet of organized religion - but that there IS something out there....

Before there were evil rulers and kings people have been believing in what we now refer to as God.

What about random societys that have no contact whatsoever with any of the outside world - no kings etc...even they have their form of religion.

That said - I agree that the way religion has been used throughout history is horrible - it makes me so sad but they'll get theirs- it boggles my mind how a person can claim to be Christian and then do such horrible and hateful things in the name of God - but it happens -and has for centuries...eons even.

[irishgrl]

Isn't that John 1:1 & not Genesis?
Yes, thank you.
However the issue isnt WHOSE Genesis, because of course we are talking about the Judeo Genesis. Christianity absorbed it wholesale when it branched off from its Jewish roots. Many Cultures have their own "Genesis" story, including the Babylonians, the Phoenicians, the Native Americans etc....

Please dont change the focus of what I was saying which was that the Bible mentions that God wasnt "alone."

[strandinthewind]

I did not say that they were born to believe the tenet of organized religion - but that there IS something out there....

I know that and did not say you said that. I was saying I thought black scarf mistakenly used the word atheist and I though they meant organized religion instead.

Before there were evil rulers and kings people have been believing in what we now refer to as God.

What about random societys that have no contact whatsoever with any of the outside world - no kings etc...even they have their form of religion . . . .

I think the smarter people in those socities have taken the inherent sense of right and wrong that almost all mammals have on some level and have used that to rule them.

[GypsySorcerer]

Many Cultures have their own "Genesis" story, including the Babylonians, the Phoenicians, the Native Americans etc....

True. And many religions also believe that god/gods were born of a virgin.

Isn't that John 1:1 & not Genesis?


John is an interesting book. I've read quite compelling position papers that claim Mary Magdalene authored the gospel.

[strandinthewind]

True. And many religions also believe that god/gods were born of a virgin.

Isn't that interesting. Many men consider a virgin the ultimate sexual thing conquest or reward. The Muslim faith even says good men will get virgins in heavan or something like that. Also, females losing their virginity is a huge deal seemingly to most. So, the aura around a virgin exists to this day.

[irishgrl]

Harold Bloom -- admittedly no Biblical scholar or historian of antiquity -- thinks a very special woman wrote the so-called "J" strands of the Hebrew Bible. See his "Book of J" for a fascinating journey through the thoughts of a great textual critic of irony, stance & tone in the Hebrew Bible, & his bizarre but fascinating conclusions.
Is this the Saint Theresa that Joan Osborne wrote that song about?
Im not familiar with the "J" strands, but it sounds interesting, thanks for the heads up! Im also not familiar with Joan Osborne (ACK!) but I linked to the site that recounts the words of St. Theresa and shows the Bernini sculpture commemorating the event...........

[irishgrl]

Isn't that interesting. Many men consider a virgin the ultimate sexual thing conquest or reward. The Muslim faith even says good men will get virgins in heavan or something like that. Also, females losing their virginity is a huge deal seemingly to most. So, the aura around a virgin exists to this day.
The concept of immaculate conception is Eastern in Origin as is a resurrected God. These ideas were commonplace in that part of the World that Jesus inhabited and therefore, contemporaries saw no problem with the concepts being incorporated in the story of Jesus' origins/life/death/rebirth.

Its my understanding that the Muslim faithful (men) will have 48 (!) virgins attending to their needs in the afterlife.

As for virginity/lack of same, remember that Joseph was going to put aside Mary prior to marrying her because she was pregnant, and the Bible says that he was visited by an Angel who explained the Holy circumstances of her pregnancy. I wonder if he was secretly resentful, having to deal with two of God's chosen?

[irishgrl]

That's actually wrong...

If ALL babies were born atheists then there would be no religion...

How do you exlpain the fact that EVERY culture in this world has a religion? Has a path to God? It's somthing that is inate in humans - the want to find origins...

Some find origin in science - some in religion...it's what works for the individual.

I don't appreciate you calling The Bible "The Babble" could you please show a little bit more respect to the religious Ledies? We're not disrespecting your views.

The belief in a Supreme Being, IMO, only occurred when mankind became aware of a reality beyond themselves....when man began to ask "why?" and to notice a grand pattern to life....The first manifestation of this is Nature, aka "Mother Earth". When mankind was secure enough (ie had enough food/shelter/water etc) to have the free time to think of issues beyond mere survival. I believe the advent of "religion" came about contemporaneously with the development of agriculture (the ability to provide food for the future, not just for today)

[The Tower]

I did not say that they were born to believe the tenet of organized religion - but that there IS something out there....

Before there were evil rulers and kings people have been believing in what we now refer to as God.

What about random societys that have no contact whatsoever with any of the outside world - no kings etc...even they have their form of religion.

Every single human is born in ignorance with instinctual behaviors. It's the ignorance part that creates the need for religion/spirituality. Filling in explanations to unanswered questions. What is nature and why do things happen? Why is human behavior the way that it is? All religions and spiritual ideas are born from the desire to solve the problem of ignorance.

Filling in the blanks with made up stuff is just a waste of time, IMO. I don't have a problem with the fact that I don't know the answers to the universe. And I certainly don't need anyone telling/asking me to join in a national day of prayer- especially a member of our (supposedly) secular government. That is horrifyingly insulting to me.

[irishgrl]

Every single human is born in ignorance with instinctual behaviors. It's the ignorance part that creates the need for religion/spirituality. Filling in explanations to unanswered questions. What is nature and why do things happen? Why is human behavior the way that it is? All religions and spiritual ideas are born from the desire to solve the problem of ignorance.

Filling in the blanks with made up stuff is just a waste of time, IMO. I don't have a problem with the fact that I don't know the answers to the universe. And I certainly don't need anyone telling/asking me to join in a national day of prayer- especially a member of our (supposedly) secular government. That is horrifyingly insulting to me.
I strongly and resoundingly denounce the effort by one group to impose their views on everyone in this country via political power. There is good reason for separating Church and State. The Founding Fathers were very much aware of the tendancy of the Church to ACT as if it were the State and to curb its power. Im sure they would throw their collective hands up in disgust to see the direction this country is headed............

[strandinthewind]

I strongly and resoundingly denounce the effort by one group to impose their views on everyone in this country via political power. There is good reason for separating Church and State. The Founding Fathers were very much aware of the tendancy of the Church to ACT as if it were the State and to curb its power. Im sure they would throw their collective hands up in disgust to see the direction this country is headed............

Yep - and when you bring that fact up to Coulter and her ilk - they site the Declaration of Ind.'s vague use of the divine to support inserting religion, and really just Christianity, into the realm of govt. They never ever want to hear about the recorded discussions on this point which clearly demonstrate religious tyranny was not to happen in this country. Moreover, they also cannot discuss that the US Const. specfically and intentionally makes no reference to God or the divine for this reason. Rather, when confronted with these facts, they have no response other than to spin it to scare people into thinking that if the govt. cannot officially sponsor religion, the people will have no religion, God is going to abandon them for insulting Him, they are going to Hell, etc.

In the end, I have no real issue with a town having a holiday scene for various religions, a general National Day of Prayer, etc. But, I know the intent of these is just one more advance (no matter how slight) to convince people that Christianity needs to be the official religion of the US, which many already believe. So, I will always be opposed to them for that reason, which is sad.

[The Tower]

In the end, I have no real issue with a town having a holiday scene for various religions, a general National Day of Prayer, etc. But, I know the intent of these is just one more advance (no matter how slight) to convince people that Christianity needs to be the official religion of the US, which many already believe. So, I will always be opposed to them for that reason, which is sad.
I don't think it's sad. I despise that whole "what's the big deal if we have a national day of prayer?" routine. It IS a big deal. Organized religion wants the power and control of everyone. Every single millimeter of movement in the direction of the government sponsering any kind of religion is unacceptable. Religion in any form has no place in government.

[David]

Religion in any form has no place in government.Unless the Lord or his hosts rid us entirely of politicians.

[strandinthewind]

I don't think it's sad. I despise that whole "what's the big deal if we have a national day of prayer?" routine. It IS a big deal. Organized religion wants the power and control of everyone. Every single millimeter of movement in the direction of the government sponsering any kind of religion is unacceptable. Religion in any form has no place in government.

You said what I said :laugh:

[SuzeQuze]

I think some of our founding fathers were atheists. :eek: They are turning over like Murrow right now.

[The Tower]

You said what I said :laugh:
Except that you said this:
In the end, I have no real issue with a town having a holiday scene for various religions, a general National Day of Prayer, etc.
which I have a problem with. If there is a religious holiday that's fine- but a government sponsored national day of prayer, I have a BIG problem with it.

[David]

it boggles my mind how a person can claim to be Christian and then do such horrible and hateful things in the name of God - but it happens -and has for centuries...eons even.Which is why the power of the state shouldn't extend to dictating any aspect of the religious life of the individual.

The only exception I can think of is if the individual's religious practice is infringing on various rights of other individuals, the state is obligated to intercede.

[David]

I think some of our founding fathers were atheists. :eek:Maybe, but I hope not. Atheism seems as misguided & illogical as deity worship: you are actively claiming something (in this case, the nonexistence of God or gods) when you have no supporting empirical data to support your claim. The views of the atheist are as nonfalsifiable as the views of the deity worshipper.

Earlier in the thread, a few of you were discussing whether babies were atheists, which is ridiculous. Babies are no more capable of claiming the nonexistence of God than they are of claiming the existence of God.

[DrummerDeanna]

Maybe, but I hope not. Atheism seems as misguided & illogical as deity worship: you are actively claiming something (in this case, the nonexistence of God or gods) when you have no supporting empirical data to support your claim. The views of the atheist are as nonfalsifiable as the views of the deity worshipper.

Earlier in the thread, a few of you were discussing whether babies were atheists, which is ridiculous. Babies are no more capable of claiming the nonexistence of God than they are of claiming the existence of God.


Excellent point.

[SuzeQuze]

Maybe, but I hope not. Atheism seems as misguided & illogical as deity worship: you are actively claiming something (in this case, the nonexistence of God or gods) when you have no supporting empirical data to support your claim. The views of the atheist are as nonfalsifiable as the views of the deity worshipper.

Earlier in the thread, a few of you were discussing whether babies were atheists, which is ridiculous. Babies are no more capable of claiming the nonexistence of God than they are of claiming the existence of God.

Hmm, well I just did a search and Jefferson and Franklin both did believe but neither subscribed to any particular religion. Someone once said that Franklin was an atheist but they were wrong. Hence another reason I should do my own research!

Jefferson and Franklin were not Christian!

[strandinthewind]

Except that you said this:

which I have a problem with. If there is a religious holiday that's fine- but a government sponsored national day of prayer, I have a BIG problem with it.

Well I don't except that I, like you, think they will misuse it - so, I am against it.

I was more commenting on it is sad that some small town in Nebraska cannot have an innocuous Christmas tree because some a$$hole in Alabama uses religious symbols in a govt. to force Christianity down peoples' throats. AS for the National Day of Prayer - I was defining prayer as a request of a non-specific entity that need not be divine - not the way W framed it.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Earlier in the thread, a few of you were discussing whether babies were atheists, which is ridiculous. Babies are no more capable of claiming the nonexistence of God than they are of claiming the existence of God.

To Clarify - I was saying babies are not born with any religion at all. The religion they initially take will be through socialization.

[mylittledemon]

Once again, you are attaching the concept of "goodness" and "morality" to having to believe in a God; if you don't believe in God, you must be a horrid, wicked sinner. Which, of course is utter nonsense and harkens back to my original statements about guilt, and the power of "religion" to make people fearful, and make them feel like **** for not believing. Fortunately, I got over that. Especially the God Was Always There Theory. That doesn't hold water for me. That a "man" was up in the sky forever until he suddenly made his badass self known. No. Too silly.


You cant fathom a God being there before any of us were created? Of course you cant. Our brains cant comprehend it. It's something you have to take in with faith. You have to believe it. Our minds are focused on the here and the now. Everything on this planet has a beginning and an ending. It's the natural cycle of things. So for there to be a God in heaven that's always been there, our brains fart over that concept. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean it's not real or true. We're all given a free choice to pick what we believe in.

But I do agree with you on religion. You're forgetting that religion is a man-made sect, among a particular faith. I truly believe that "religion" is a bond set upon man, by men, to have control over the church. All that pious ritual that a lot of these churches go thru is nonsense.

[SomeKindaMother]

This thread has saddened me in many different ways. I have ageed in some fashion with almost every post...the same as I have disagreed. I'm suprised by how the 'non believers' seem to judge all 'believers' by generic standards. I can't believe that so many people can judge groups entirely based upon the actions of a few. Won't most of you be the first to say not to judge Muslims based upon Osama bin Laden? Then why judge Christians based upon George and Pat? Who says no Christians can believe God is both male and female...or NEITHER male nor female?? I am Christian....Catholic. If a friend were to come to me with an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, I would do everything in my power to convince her to keep the baby. Everything but vote to prevent her from having the *choice* to do it. If God didn't want us to have free choice, He wouldn't have given it to us! We would all be sinless and still living in the Garden of Eden. I won't get into the argument of abortion equallying murder, because in my opinion it isn't the same thing at all. I don't believe people have abortions for any malicious reasons. If it's a sin, then let God judge the sin as He also will judge the sins of us all....as He has given us the choice to commit. I also believe that everyone who has ever masturbated is equal to a 'gay sinner' and therefore should be judged equally. Hmmm, how would public opinion of gay marriage change were that to happen? Maybe that suprises some that I have the 'nerve' to call myself 'Christian', but I assure you that my faith is strong. "Faith" being the key word. Don't ask me to prove it because I don't even want to. Don't tell me I'm brainwashed, because I don't tell you the same. Faith is just that...Faith. If you don't have it...ya don't understand it, but don't deem me less intelligent or yourself elite because of it. I'm sorry if the outspoken few representatives of Christianity....or religion in general...have done the same. They do not speak for me.

As I said earlier, I am a Christian. Had my parents been Jewish, or Muslim; Buddhist, or Hindu...I'm sure that is the belief I would hold now....especially if that was the general religion of my community. Of *course* I believe my religion is the 'right' religion...the best one for me. Even though I don't always agree with absolutely everything, I don't want to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. I also don't think that "MY" God will damn someone who believes in Him by another name...such as 'Allah'. I do believe in Jesus Christ the Savior. Jesus said, "Whosoever believeth in Me...." Jesus also said the Father and the Son are One. So, it wouldn't be too far a stretch for me to believe that if one believes in 'God', 'Allah', 'Heavenly Power'...then that is the same as 'believeth'ing in the "Me" Jesus referred to. Call me a heretic, but that's what I believe. (Not generally Christian teachings.)

My kids go to a very small...70 students K-8...Catholic school. There are few Democrats among us. Many things are spoken throughout the year to my children, such as: "Democrats want to take all the babies and throw them in the garbage." My 9 year old came home last year and told me this. I asked her if she thought that was true...and of course she said 'no'. Then I told her that was a good lesson for her about judging others....not just others judging 'us'...but also 'us' judging 'them'. Additionally, I don't understand why we must remove the 10 Commandments, or even the pledge from public buildings. Most parents deal with 'belief' issues every day and 'right' vs 'wrong'. Many things that are right for one family, won't work for another. Some kids are allowed to spend the night with friends, and some come home at 10 PM. Does that make one family right and another wrong? Again, call me a hypocrite...but every situation is different and should be evaluated as such.

If I were to say 'God Bless you to any of you here....or anyone anywhere...I wouldn't dream that I would be offending someone by doing that. I would be extending a heartfelt expression to you from the best place I could possibly imagine. I couldn't be offended if someone said "peace of Allah be with you", or "may the bounty of Mother Nature shine Her light upon you", or simply "I'll be sending you good energy". How could anybody be offended by another person offering them 'good wishes' from the place they hold dear and/or Holy? That is much different than being commanded by the leader of your country. I think he should have worded more carefully, such as 'pray to your God', or 'Higher Power'. That would have sounded less arrogant. (That would have been so uncharacteristic.)

And, were I Republican AND a Christian, I wouldn't WANT these so called leaders representing my Christian beliefs. The biggest danger of ALL this, in my opinion, is that when the Christian backed polititians drop you on you ass...and they will...it reflects upon the religion these people hold so dearly. They are actually going to end up driving people away from religion altogether. THIS, to me, is the most important reason to keep the seperation of Church and State. Anything structured by mankind is not going to be perfect....and organized religion is no exception. That doesn't mean it is all useless. I would be very interested in studying things Mary was talking about such as the Dead Sea Scrolls...and I have big intrigue into the Feminine Divine 'mystery'. (By the way, my priest read...and loved....the DaVinci Code. He asked me not to tell the Pope on him.)

Well, if anyone actually took the time to read all that, you deserve some sort of a medal! Sorry so long, but you know what they say about religion and politics. It just so happens that my particular beliefs of these two hot topics manage to differ from almost everyone else here on the Ledge. But I live in a glass house, so....

Peace be with you all!

Kelly :)

PS: To save a lot of cutting and quoting...Deanna...I agree!!!!

[mylittledemon]

Except that you said this:

which I have a problem with. If there is a religious holiday that's fine- but a government sponsored national day of prayer, I have a BIG problem with it.


Then what is Christmas? Just about every business in the country is closed on Christmas day. I'd say that's a "government sponsored" holiday wouldnt you? Hell, look at the word.....CHRIST-mas. It's a Christian holiday! So what's the difference between Christmas and a "government sponsored" National Day of Prayer? You're drawing lines in sand my friend. And besides, pray to who you want to...or dont pray at all! We're all free in this country.

[dissention]

You cant fathom a God being there before any of us were created? Of course you cant. Our brains cant comprehend it. It's something you have to take in with faith. You have to believe it. Our minds are focused on the here and the now. Everything on this planet has a beginning and an ending. It's the natural cycle of things. So for there to be a God in heaven that's always been there, our brains fart over that concept. Just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't mean it's not real or true. We're all given a free choice to pick what we believe in.


When people try to explain to me that they believe that there is a God, I always get to wondering how their God came about. How was he created?

[DrummerDeanna]

Kelly-

WooHoo!!! You can mail me my medal ;)

GREAT Post....ITA. Sounds like we have very similar views...:o

[chiliD]

Besides, whose Genesis?


Silly Dobie, it's Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Michael Rutherford, Steve Hackett & Tony Banks

[amber]

When people try to explain to me that they believe that there is a God, I always get to wondering how their God came about. How was he created?
:lol:
me, too. Especially because of the way people talk about god, as if it's an actual thing.

[mylittledemon]

When people try to explain to me that they believe that there is a God, I always get to wondering how their God came about. How was he created?

Why is it so hard for people to believe there is something greater than ourselves and our meaningless lives here? Good Lord....I mean....I choose to believe there HAS to be something greater at work than my miniscule life. You know? I see people every day in my line of work...their homes...their familes. They work to provide for their kids....they have a house....then what? If you're lucky, you live awhile and then you die peacefully. Why would you NOT want to believe there is something more than that? Do you want all your questions to remain unanswered? Do you not want to know what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for? There has to be something more.

[DrummerDeanna]

Again - FAITH is the key word.....God is creator - He is not created - God is infinite. God is not man, God is not woman, God is not thing - God just IS.

Faith is the word. I don't have to explain away every single facet of this - especially since around here it's met with people saying Christians are ignorant etc...why is it that other religions aren't so made fun of around here?

Bottom line - atheists have no more of a grasp on reality than Christians or any other religious group.

[estranged4life]

When people try to explain to me that they believe that there is a God, I always get to wondering how their God came about. How was he created?

when they were asked to join Fleetwood Mac :rolleyes:

[SuzeQuze]

I'm fascinated by Jefferson quotes on this issue. Here are two:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789



From this site: http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Why is it so hard for people to believe there is something greater than ourselves and our meaningless lives here? Good Lord....I mean....I choose to believe there HAS to be something greater at work than my miniscule life. You know? I see people every day in my line of work...their homes...their familes. They work to provide for their kids....they have a house....then what? If you're lucky, you live awhile and then you die peacefully. Why would you NOT want to believe there is something more than that? Do you want all your questions to remain unanswered? Do you not want to know what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for? There has to be something more.

Great post. This is a life I couldn't live, without some kind of faith.

[mylittledemon]

Bottom line - atheists have no more of a grasp on reality than Christians or any other religious group.

Hmpf...interesting. Never heard it put that way.

[David]

Silly Dobie, it's Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Michael Rutherford, Steve Hackett & Tony Banks
:laugh: :laugh: :lol:
Do you believe in God
'Cause that is what I'm selling
And if you wanna go to heaven
I'll see you right
You won't even have to leave your house
Or get out of your chair
You don't even have to touch that dial
'Cause I'm everywhere!

[SuzeQuze]

Again - FAITH is the key word.....God is creator - He is not created - God is infinite. God is not man, God is not woman, God is not thing - God just IS.

Faith is the word. I don't have to explain away every single facet of this - especially since around here it's met with people saying Christians are ignorant etc...why is it that other religions aren't so made fun of around here?

Bottom line - atheists have no more of a grasp on reality than Christians or any other religious group.

That's true, and I think what David was pointing out. That logically you can argue both points but neither can be proven false.

I have faith too. But I do not belong to any particular religion. Sometimes I think about doing that for the community aspect of it. But I can't pick one because there's dogma in all of them.

[David]

Faith is the word.Well according to Frankie Avalon, GREASE is the word, pal!