So Much for Sep. of Church and State

[dissention]

Why is it so hard for people to believe there is something greater than ourselves and our meaningless lives here? Good Lord....I mean....I choose to believe there HAS to be something greater at work than my miniscule life. You know? I see people every day in my line of work...their homes...their familes. They work to provide for their kids....they have a house....then what? If you're lucky, you live awhile and then you die peacefully. Why would you NOT want to believe there is something more than that? Do you want all your questions to remain unanswered? Do you not want to know what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for? There has to be something more.

I simply don't need to put faith in a God in order to live the life I want to lead, especially since I don't believe in the existence of one. Do I want all of my questions to remain unanswered? I don't have any that need to be answered. I don't believe that our existence has a purpose; to me, there is no meaning that can be applied to our existence. We're born, we do the best we can to have a good life, and then we die. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I don't think I am, just like those who believe in God and a greater meaning to life don't think they're wrong.

[DrummerDeanna]

That's true, and I think what David was pointing out. That logically you can argue both points but neither can be proven false.

I have faith too. But I do not belong to any particular religion. Sometimes I think about doing that for the community aspect of it. But I can't pick one because there's dogma in all of them.


Yeah - it's hard. There are parts of my religion that I really really dislike and disagree with. But I don't think that makes me less of a part of the religion (though the fanatics would argue that it does)

I believe in gay rights, I believe in a woman's right to choose, I believe that women should be priests, I believe that priests shoudl be able to marry -I don't like having the Pope as the head of the church etc....

The list could go on and on...

Conversely there are things I love about my religion and that's why I stay. I have looked into others - but the one I have always known is the one that still fits me best :)

I really think it's important for a person to do what they are comfortable with and what they are called to do :)

[mylittledemon]

I simply don't need to put faith in a God in order to live the life I want to lead, especially since I don't believe in the existence of one. Do I want all of my questions to remain unanswered? I don't have any that need to be answered. I don't believe that our existence has a purpose; to me, there is no meaning that can be applied to our existence. We're born, we do the best we can to have a good life, and then we die. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I don't think I am, just like those who believe in God and a greater meaning to life don't think they're wrong.


And I respect and understand your opinion on the matter. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. For me personally, I could never choose to believe that our existence doesnt have a purpose. I may not understand it, and I may never know why...but I cant believe that all this is for nothing.

[amber]

Why is it so hard for people to believe there is something greater than ourselves and our meaningless lives here? Good Lord....I mean....I choose to believe there HAS to be something greater at work than my miniscule life. You know? I see people every day in my line of work...their homes...their familes. They work to provide for their kids....they have a house....then what? If you're lucky, you live awhile and then you die peacefully. Why would you NOT want to believe there is something more than that? Do you want all your questions to remain unanswered? Do you not want to know what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for? There has to be something more.
I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort. And I assume, like for all other biological entities, that the business of, and reason for, living, is living. And the reason we are on earth is because earth can support life. And we have kids and take care of them for the same reason that every living thing on earth does - because that's how biology works.

What are these questions you want answered that only "god" can answer? And as far as "knowing what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for" - it's just the business of being alive. :shrug: Why does it have to be for something more than simply existing? Like anything else, we come into existence, we sustain our lives the best we can, and then we die. Why are humans so self centered as to think that there has to be more meaning? And why are we so greedy that we think there needs to be MORE for us, after we die? Sheesh. It boggles my mind. And of course, humans are the only species to occupy themselves with this kind of thinking.
I love knowing how things in the universe work, and we are finding out more scientifically all the time - but I certainly don't need/want this information to feel comforted, or to feel that my life has meaning - Also, I don't need a concept of "God" to help me know how to behave in life.

[strandinthewind]

Then what is Christmas? Just about every business in the country is closed on Christmas day. I'd say that's a "government sponsored" holiday wouldnt you? Hell, look at the word.....CHRIST-mas. It's a Christian holiday! So what's the difference between Christmas and a "government sponsored" National Day of Prayer? You're drawing lines in sand my friend.

Though the govt. workers get the day off for Christmas, no one is calling upon all of them to celebrate Christmas. That is the difference.

And besides, pray to who you want to...or dont pray at all! We're all free in this country.

Exactly, which is why it is offensive to have W call upon "all Americans" to pray to God Almighty, which is a thinly vieled way to say pray to the Christian God and most realize that and take offense.

[dissention]

I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort. And I assume, like for all other biological entities, that the business of, and reason for, living, is living. And the reason we are on earth is because earth can support life. And we have kids and take care of them for the same reason that every living thing on earth does - because that's how biology works.

What are these questions you want answered that only "god" can answer? And as far as "knowing what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for" - it's just the business of being alive. :shrug: Why does it have to be for something more than simply existing? Like anything else, we come into existence, we sustain our lives the best we can, and then we die. Why are humans so self centered as to think that there has to be more meaning? And why are we so greedy that we think there needs to be MORE for us, after we die? Sheesh. It boggles my mind. And of course, humans are the only species to occupy themselves with this kind of thinking.
I love knowing how things in the universe work, and we are finding out more scientifically all the time - but I certainly don't need/want this information to feel comforted, or to feel that my life has meaning - Also, I don't need a concept of "God" to help me know how to behave in life.

Great post. :angel:

[strandinthewind]

I'm fascinated by Jefferson quotes on this issue. Here are two:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789



From this site: http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

I love it when these quotes are brought up to the far right wing idiots - they just can't take it and instead invoke God's Wrath as if it is their's to invoke. If these people were alive today, they would be considered vile traitors.

[amber]

Well according to Frankie Avalon, GREASE is the word, pal!

:lol:

It's also the time, the place, and the motion!

[amber]

Great post. :angel:

You, too. :angel: After I posted, I read what you said, and was going to say....


"TWINS!" :laugh: or maybe...."Jinx! You owe me a coke!" :p

[strandinthewind]

Why is it so hard for people to believe there is something greater than ourselves and our meaningless lives here? Good Lord....I mean....I choose to believe there HAS to be something greater at work than my miniscule life. You know? I see people every day in my line of work...their homes...their familes. They work to provide for their kids....they have a house....then what? If you're lucky, you live awhile and then you die peacefully. Why would you NOT want to believe there is something more than that? Do you want all your questions to remain unanswered? Do you not want to know what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for? There has to be something more.

I think so too. But, my point was I do not think it is up to the govt. to tell me the official version of this that I should believe. If I am interested, I will find my own religion and/or look for answers in my own way. But, the history of organized religion indicates the powers to be cannot abide that. It is their way or no way no matter the lip service given to the other religions.

[macfanken]

I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort. And I assume, like for all other biological entities, that the business of, and reason for, living, is living. And the reason we are on earth is because earth can support life. And we have kids and take care of them for the same reason that every living thing on earth does - because that's how biology works.

What are these questions you want answered that only "god" can answer? And as far as "knowing what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for" - it's just the business of being alive. :shrug: Why does it have to be for something more than simply existing? Like anything else, we come into existence, we sustain our lives the best we can, and then we die. Why are humans so self centered as to think that there has to be more meaning? And why are we so greedy that we think there needs to be MORE for us, after we die? Sheesh. It boggles my mind. And of course, humans are the only species to occupy themselves with this kind of thinking.
I love knowing how things in the universe work, and we are finding out more scientifically all the time - but I certainly don't need/want this information to feel comforted, or to feel that my life has meaning - Also, I don't need a concept of "God" to help me know how to behave in life.



:thumbsup:


You described almost exactly how I feel.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

they would be considered vile traitors.

But we when call you traitors...

were hateful b*tches! :xoxo:

[mylittledemon]

What are these questions you want answered that only "god" can answer? And as far as "knowing what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for" - it's just the business of being alive. :shrug: Why does it have to be for something more than simply existing? Like anything else, we come into existence, we sustain our lives the best we can, and then we die. Why are humans so self centered as to think that there has to be more meaning? And why are we so greedy that we think there needs to be MORE for us, after we die? Sheesh.


It has nothing to do with selfishness. Hoping and/or believing in a greater power than the minimal trail we leave behind here in our lives is not selfish. It has nothing to do with greed either. You're comparing apples and oranges there.

What questions do I want answered??? Why did my fiance have a miscarriage? Why did my parents get divorced...and my mother in turn marry a self-proclaimed man of God? Why does my father have cancer? Why do children die by the thousands in Africa every day? Why were millions of Jews murdered during Hitler's regin? Maybe these things dont mean a hill of beans to anyone else...and maybe I dont deserve to know the answers because that's the way life rolls...but I think there's a reason for it all. Oh well...you see it your way, and I'll see it mine. That's what makes the world go 'round. If we were all alike, this world would be boring. At least, these forums would be.

[amber]

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

[/INDENT]

From this site: http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

This quote is awesome. Sigworthy. That Jefferson... :thumbsup:

[dissention]

"TROLL" - A conservative with a taste for schadenfreude. That's me!

At least give Coulter credit for coining that phrase.

[estranged4life]

I love it when these quotes are brought up to the far right wing idiots -

if you're on the right wing, your a conservative and if you're on the left wing your a liberal...

I guess those of us in the middle are the passengers on this flight-to-nowhere :shrug:

[mylittledemon]

Though the govt. workers get the day off for Christmas, no one is calling upon all of them to celebrate Christmas. That is the difference.



Exactly, which is why it is offensive to have W call upon "all Americans" to pray to God Almighty, which is a thinly vieled way to say pray to the Christian God and most realize that and take offense.

The President isnt forcing you to do something. He didnt force you to pray to the Almighty. He urged you. If you dont want to do it, FINE...it's a FREE country. As far as I'm concered, it takes more sack to stand up for what you believe in than not to. The "majority" of Americans may not agree with that, but we can all believe in what we choose.

Nobody around our "water coolers" was offended by the Prez's call for a prayer. No one on local radio was bitching about it here in Orlando. I've not heard one shred of "offense" taken by that.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

if you're on the right wing, your a conservative and if you're on the left wing your a liberal...

I guess those of us in the middle are the passengers on this flight-to-nowhere :shrug:

:lol:

You know I have never heard it put quite like that! HAHA. Good analogy!

I have always wondered how the "wings" were decided anyways?!?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

At least give Coulter credit for coining that phrase.

Well, it's not an exact quote...but yes it was our brilliant conservative flame thrower who came up with that one.

But I thought you hadn't read HTTTAL(IYM)?

[SuzeQuze]

This quote is awesome. Sigworthy. That Jefferson... :thumbsup:

Totally, I want to use it. But you can if you want to. I was thinking the same thing - great minds!

[amber]

It has nothing to do with selfishness. Hoping and/or believing in a greater power than the minimal trail we leave behind here in our lives is not selfish. It has nothing to do with greed either. You're comparing apples and oranges there.

What questions do I want answered??? Why did my fiance have a miscarriage? Why did my parents get divorced...and my mother in turn marry a self-proclaimed man of God? Why does my father have cancer? Why do children die by the thousands in Africa every day? Why were millions of Jews murdered during Hitler's regin? Maybe these things dont mean a hill of beans to anyone else...and maybe I dont deserve to know the answers because that's the way life rolls...but I think there's a reason for it all. Oh well...you see it your way, and I'll see it mine. That's what makes the world go 'round. If we were all alike, this world would be boring. At least, these forums would be.
I disagree, I think it is covetous, at least, if not selfish. And I don't necessarily think of my life as "miniscule" - it's short in the grand scheme of time, but why should it be longer? What's so important about me that I should live beyond, well, when I die? I mean, a fruitfly's lifespan is only a day or two, but that's how long it's supposed to be, and that's fine. That's how I feel about my life - it's just another part of the endless cycle of things that live and die. The fact that you think of your life as "miniscule" means to me that you think you should have more of it.
Those questions you want answered - those things are called "life". It's no big mystery, everyone goes through difficult things and great things. Many, many people and animals get Cancer, and always have, throughout time. Many women miscarry.
And as for the answers about Africa, and also why millions of Jews died, well, you don't have to ask "God" for answers to those questions, you just have to do a little research. For instance, with Africa, start with the fact of very little resources, and go from there - the answer is available. Hitler's murdering? There's answers for that available, too.

[SomeKindaMother]

I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort. And I assume, like for all other biological entities, that the business of, and reason for, living, is living. And the reason we are on earth is because earth can support life. And we have kids and take care of them for the same reason that every living thing on earth does - because that's how biology works.

What are these questions you want answered that only "god" can answer? And as far as "knowing what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for" - it's just the business of being alive. :shrug: Why does it have to be for something more than simply existing? Like anything else, we come into existence, we sustain our lives the best we can, and then we die. Why are humans so self centered as to think that there has to be more meaning? And why are we so greedy that we think there needs to be MORE for us, after we die? Sheesh. It boggles my mind. And of course, humans are the only species to occupy themselves with this kind of thinking.
I love knowing how things in the universe work, and we are finding out more scientifically all the time - but I certainly don't need/want this information to feel comforted, or to feel that my life has meaning - Also, I don't need a concept of "God" to help me know how to behave in life.

I don't know why you think we are greedy or self-centered for believing in an afterlife. It is our belief. I don't think you are shallow for not being intrigued or interested in the 'great questions of life'. It's simply *your* belief. That you are entitled to. I'm not being a smart-ass masking an insult...I am trying to make a point. I really *don't* think you are shallow! Just like I really don't think I am greedy for believing in an afterlife.

Kelly :)

[amber]

The President isnt forcing you to do something. He didnt force you to pray to the Almighty. He urged you. If you dont want to do it, FINE...it's a FREE country. As far as I'm concered, it takes more sack to stand up for what you believe in than not to. The "majority" of Americans may not agree with that, but we can all believe in what we choose.

Nobody around our "water coolers" was offended by the Prez's call for a prayer. No one on local radio was bitching about it here in Orlando. I've not heard one shred of "offense" taken by that.

You totally missed the point of why the President of the U.S. should'nt talk about the Almighty God. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

The President isnt forcing you to do something. He didnt force you to pray to the Almighty. He urged you. If you dont want to do it, FINE...it's a FREE country. As far as I'm concered, it takes more sack to stand up for what you believe in than not to. The "majority" of Americans may not agree with that, but we can all believe in what we choose.

Nobody around our "water coolers" was offended by the Prez's call for a prayer. No one on local radio was bitching about it here in Orlando. I've not heard one shred of "offense" taken by that.

I was offended :shrug:

Here is why. Don't you see the true meaning of his language. I mean why did he have to say "all Americans" and "God Almighty." He said it as a high sign to the far religious right. He should have said "I urge Americans to pray" or something general like that. But, he cannot do that. He has to classify all Americans as Christians, which is what he was doing and that is wrong. That is what I and many find offensive - not the thought of praying, God, or anything like that.

As far as I'm concered, it takes more sack to stand up for what you believe in than not to.

I am unsure what you mean by that.

[amber]

I don't know why you think we are greedy or self-centered for believing in an afterlife. It is our belief. I don't think you are shallow for not being intrigued or interested in the 'great questions of life'. It's simply *your* belief. That you are entitled to. I'm not being a smart-ass masking an insult...I am trying to make a point. I really *don't* think you are shallow! Just like I really don't think I am greedy for believing in an afterlife.

Kelly :)
Of course you don't think of it that way. And I don't mean anyone who believes is an overall greedy person - I just think the need to believe that is abstractly covetous.
No big. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

It has nothing to do with selfishness. Hoping and/or believing in a greater power than the minimal trail we leave behind here in our lives is not selfish. It has nothing to do with greed either. You're comparing apples and oranges there.

What questions do I want answered??? Why did my fiance have a miscarriage? Why did my parents get divorced...and my mother in turn marry a self-proclaimed man of God? Why does my father have cancer? Why do children die by the thousands in Africa every day? Why were millions of Jews murdered during Hitler's regin? Maybe these things dont mean a hill of beans to anyone else...and maybe I dont deserve to know the answers because that's the way life rolls...but I think there's a reason for it all. Oh well...you see it your way, and I'll see it mine. That's what makes the world go 'round. If we were all alike, this world would be boring. At least, these forums would be.

I think many would like to know why these things happen - but not all people think any of them had any influence by a divine being they do not believe in. But, that does not mean they do not care about them. I mean look as Diss. Deluded as his is on occassion :wavey: - he is one of the most caring people you will find :shrug:

[estranged4life]

:lol:

You know I have never heard it put quite like that! HAHA. Good analogy!

I have always heard that analogy said, Cause as long as both wings keep tipping the plane, the plane will eventually lose lift and inevitably crash killing all aboard.

[DrummerDeanna]

There seems to be a double standard here...

If we say you're shallow for not believing -then we're shoving religion down your throats, ignorant of gullible of all of the above..

But it's perfectly fine to call us vile.....say we're selfish and greedy?

what the hell??

[chiliD]

Well according to Frankie Avalon, GREASE is the word, pal!

According to the gospel of John & Paul "The Word" is "love" (and on their Rubber Soul album).

[estranged4life]

According to the gospel of John & Paul "The Word" is "love" (and on their Rubber Soul album).

"love" is all you need :nod:

Brian "Goob goob ga-choo" j.

[strandinthewind]

There seems to be a double standard here...

If we say you're shallow for not believing -then we're shoving religion down your throats, ignorant of gullible of all of the above..

But it's perfectly fine to call us vile.....say we're selfish and greedy?

what the hell??

I do not think anyone is arguing over an individuals right to say anything. It is the govt. establishing a religion that is what bothers me.

But, to your point, I think it is unfair for anyone to judge anyone on their religious beliefs unless those beliefs hurt someone else, etc.

[dissention]

There seems to be a double standard here...

If we say you're shallow for not believing -then we're shoving religion down your throats, ignorant of gullible of all of the above..

But it's perfectly fine to call us vile.....say we're selfish and greedy?

what the hell??

Who called you vile? :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

Who called you vile? :shrug:


Not in this thread lol - but whenever religion is brough up the word vile has come up many times...most notably I can remember from tower...sorry I was re-hashing there :p

[DrummerDeanna]

I do not think anyone is arguing over an individuals right to say anything. It is the govt. establishing a religion that is what bothers me.



I see that - and I understand - but the conversation has veered off to other areas other than the gov. establishing a religion (which I, too, am against).

I just get annoyed when people start bashing the religion etc....lol - again - I said I was gonna drop out yesterda - it's like a car accident though...can't. look. away.

[strandinthewind]

I see that - and I understand - but the conversation has veered off to other areas other than the gov. establishing a religion (which I, too, am against).

I just get annoyed when people start bashing the religion etc....lol - again - I said I was gonna drop out yesterda - it's like a car accident though...can't. look. away.

Well, I, for one, enjoy your comments :wavey:

Also, any bashing I do is directed to people who cannot abide anyone not believing in their faith and then trying to get the govt. to enforce their faith. I think people mistake that bashing for bashing individual faith, etc.

[amber]

There seems to be a double standard here...

If we say you're shallow for not believing -then we're shoving religion down your throats, ignorant of gullible of all of the above..

But it's perfectly fine to call us vile.....say we're selfish and greedy?

what the hell??

I think you missed my point somewhat. I was not literally calling you selfish and greedy, I think the need to believe that there is more is inherently greedy and covetous. Which is more about human nature than the actual qualities of every person who is religious. It doesn't literally apply to every religious person, but it is a quality of the religious belief itself. IMO.

[SomeKindaMother]

Of course you don't think of it that way. And I don't mean anyone who believes is an overall greedy person - I just think the need to believe that is abstractly covetous.
No big. :wavey:

It isn't a "need" to believe. It's simply 'faith'. Why do you feel the 'need' not to believe? Or do you simply have your reasons...not necessarily a 'need'. Make any sense?

Kelly :)

[amber]

It isn't a "need" to believe. It's simply 'faith'. Why do you feel the 'need' not to believe? Or do you simply have your reasons...not necessarily a 'need'. Make any sense?

Kelly :)
er...I figure if you didn't get something out of it, you wouldn't believe it. I mean, if you just randomly decided to believe in the afterlife and god, that would be pretty arbitrary, wouldn't it? So, I figure that those who believe do have a need for religion in their lives.
And I definitely have a need not to believe. :) I can tell I have a need, because when I contemplate believing, I break out in hives, my brain shuts down, and I go into convultions.

[The Tower]

I'm suprised by how the 'non believers' seem to judge all 'believers' by generic standards.
I don't think the generic standards judgement rests exclusively with the non-believers.

I can't believe that so many people can judge groups entirely based upon the actions of a few.
You would be really surprised how prevalent that kind of judgement is.

Then why judge Christians based upon George and Pat?
I don't judge christians- I'm afraid of them. Dubya and Robertson are lunatic idiots- too bad W is in office. However, I have met many "wolves in sheep's clothing", so I have to be wary.

...I'm sorry if the outspoken few representatives of Christianity....or religion in general...have done the same. They do not speak for me.
That's great, however, they are trying to influence and control a vast quantity of people to destroy me- so, I get a little concerned whenever the government shows any kind of endorsement of religion.

Additionally, I don't understand why we must remove the 10 Commandments, or even the pledge from public buildings.
Because injected religion into government is against the law. AND it represents doctrine that has and continues to injure people to this day. It's the same concept with the confederate flag or the swastika.

I couldn't be offended if someone said "peace of Allah be with you"...
You might be if your family was killed by a suicide bomber that was acting in the name of religion.

How could anybody be offended by another person offering them 'good wishes' from the place they hold dear and/or Holy?
Because sometimes the place that one holds holy has caused great suffering on the part of the offended individual.

I think he should have worded more carefully, such as 'pray to your God', or 'Higher Power'. That would have sounded less arrogant. (That would have been so uncharacteristic.)
I think he shouldn't have suggested prayer of any sort. If anything, he should have called it a "day of remembrance" or a "day of sympathy/mourning". Prayer indicates spirituality.

Well, if anyone actually took the time to read all that, you deserve some sort of a medal! Sorry so long, but you know what they say about religion and politics. It just so happens that my particular beliefs of these two hot topics manage to differ from almost everyone else here on the Ledge. But I live in a glass house, so....

Peace be with you all!
I think your beliefs are closer to most of the Ledgies than you realize.

Kelly, I thought your post was great. I wish the world were a more peaceful, kind and respectful place. Unfortunately, religion has been a force for violence, conflict and misery much more than peace and kindness in our world. It's a sad thing.

[The Tower]

Then what is Christmas?
An ancient pagan celebration day related to the winter solstice that was hijacked by the catholic church to convert the heathens to christianity.

Just about every business in the country is closed on Christmas day. I'd say that's a "government sponsored" holiday wouldnt you?
Not really. It's a holiday that a large majority of people have celebrated since the mid-19th century. I wouldn't qualify it as government sponsored. Veterans Day and Memorial Day are more along the lines of government sponsored holidays.

So what's the difference between Christmas and a "government sponsored" National Day of Prayer?
See two above and the national day of prayer is a one-shot request from the head of our government for everyone to pray. Completely different.

And besides, pray to who you want to...or dont pray at all! We're all free in this country.
Not really, but it's a nice sentiment.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I think he shouldn't have suggested prayer of any sort. If anything, he should have called it a "day of remembrance" or a "day of sympathy/mourning". Prayer indicates spirituality.



And God (oops...I mean "dust particles") forbid that anybody holding office dares make reference to some kind of spirituality. Why is it that the majority of the time, most liberals are denouncing the president saying..."He is not my president" or "I don't care what he says, it doesn't affect me!". But now all of a sudden because he made a call for prayer FOR ONE LOUSY DAY, liberals are offended..."How could he say this and segregate the non-believers...I'm so wounded." What is the point?

[The Tower]

Who called you vile? :shrug:
:wavey:
Not in this thread lol - but whenever religion is brough up the word vile has come up many times...most notably I can remember from tower...sorry I was re-hashing there :p
While I have referred to the religion that is christianity as vile, I have never referred to christians as vile, which is quite a different thing all together.

Anyone with an ounce of historical knowledge is well aware of the atrocities committed in the name of the christianity. Not to mention large passages in the bible that I personally consider vile.

[The Tower]

What is the point?
The point is- government has no place is advocating any form of religion.

[mylittledemon]

You totally missed the point of why the President of the U.S. should'nt talk about the Almighty God. :wavey:


It's a free country. He can say what he wants too. YOU'RE missing the point.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The point is- government has no place is advocating any form of religion.

I don't recall him advocating anything? I just simply remember him calling for a day of prayer. It wasn't anywhere a long the lines of the 700 Club.

[mylittledemon]

An ancient pagan celebration day related to the winter solstice that was hijacked by the catholic church to convert the heathens to christianity.


Not really. It's a holiday that a large majority of people have celebrated since the mid-19th century. I wouldn't qualify it as government sponsored. Veterans Day and Memorial Day are more along the lines of government sponsored holidays.


See two above and the national day of prayer is a one-shot request from the head of our government for everyone to pray. Completely different.


Not really, but it's a nice sentiment.


Boy, you are one cynical *wink* sumbitch. Well at any rate, I hope your ideas and opinions on the matter turn out in your favor.

[amber]

It's a free country. He can say what he wants too. YOU'RE missing the point.
No, as the leader of a country that is supposed to have religious freedom and separation of church and state, it is innapropriate for the President to invoke the name of Almighty God in a public speech to the entire nation. The nations top leader of State should be the absolutely most removed from Church.

[mylittledemon]

The nations top leader of State should be the absolutely most removed from Church.


You are completely deluded. When the day comes that we have a President who's completely removed from his faith, then God (literally) help us.

[amber]

Boy, you are one cynical *wink* sumbitch. Well at any rate, I hope your ideas and opinions on the matter turn out in your favor.
He doesn't seem so much cynical to me as well educated, well informed, and thoughtful.

[markolas]

You are completely deluded. When the day comes that we have a President who's completely removed from his faith, then God (literally) help us.

Why? :shrug: Will God "git us"? :rolleyes:

[amber]

You are completely deluded. When the day comes that we have a President who's completely removed from his faith, then God (literally) help us.
You don't seem to understand that whether a president has faith or not, it is inappropriate for the President to tell our nation to pray to Almighty God, no matter what his personal beliefs are. We are supposed to have separation of Church and State. It's that simple, really, I'm suprised you don't get it.

[mylittledemon]

He doesn't seem so much cynical to me as well educated, well informed, and thoughtful.

I'll give you thoughtful.

[The Tower]

Boy, you are one cynical *wink* sumbitch. Well at any rate, I hope your ideas and opinions on the matter turn out in your favor.
Yes, I would like the U.S. to be a country of freedom and mutual respect. I'll continue to do what I can (by voting) to get there, though it may not happen until looooooong after I am dead- if at all.

If you think this is a free country, then you are the one that is deluded.

You are completely deluded. When the day comes that we have a President who's completely removed from his faith, then God (literally) help us.
The concept that someone is automatically attached to faith by default is ridiculous.

Maybe the president will be a "her" and maybe she will have compassion and respect for all the citizens of this country and then things will actually start to turn around instead of worrying about whether or not "god" will be able to help us.

[mylittledemon]

You don't seem to understand that whether a president has faith or not, it is inappropriate for the President to tell our nation to pray to Almighty God, no matter what his personal beliefs are. We are supposed to have separation of Church and State. It's that simple, really, I'm suprised you don't get it.

I do get it. I understand it fully. But I think that in times of crises such as the New Orleans disaster, it's inappropraite to roast the Prez or any public official because they request a prayer from the American public. Boy, that just steps all over your rights as an American citizen doesnt it? If the Mayor of New Orleans or Governor of the state of Louisiana said the same thing, I'm sure no one would be making so much of a fuss about it.

[markolas]

You don't seem to understand that whether a president has faith or not, it is inappropriate for the President to tell our nation to pray to Almighty God, no matter what his personal beliefs are. We are supposed to have separation of Church and State. It's that simple, really, I'm suprised you don't get it.

Again, I ask...what if he told everyone to chant the Sacred Title of the Lotus Sutra? What would the Christians say then?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Why? :shrug: Will God "git us"? :rolleyes:

No, because faith actually "grounds" an individual and provides them with the support to make ethical and moral decisions that betters the country.

[mylittledemon]

Yes, I would like the U.S. to be a country of freedom and mutual respect. I'll continue to do what I can (by voting) to get there, though it may not happen until looooooong after I am dead- if at all.

If you think this is a free country, then you are the one that is deluded.


You're one of the ungrateful hundreds of people I come across every week. Count your blessings that we DO have the freedoms in the this country that we have today.

[markolas]

No, because faith actually "grounds" an individual and provides them with the support to make ethical and moral decisions that betters the country.

And someone who doesn't believe in "God Almighty" can't make ethical decisions?

[The Tower]

I do get it. I understand it fully. But I think that in times of crises such as the New Orleans disaster, it's inappropraite to roast the Prez or any public official because they request a prayer from the American public. Boy, that just steps all over your rights as an American citizen doesnt it?
Gee, it would be nice if life were that simple.

If the Mayor of New Orleans or Governor of the state of Louisiana said the same thing, I'm sure no one would be making so much of a fuss about it.
I would.

[mylittledemon]

Again, I ask...what if he told everyone to chant the Sacred Title of the Lotus Sutra? What would the Christians say then?


I dont know. They'd probably get their panties in a wad and say its one more piece of bread added into the handbasket-to-hell this country seems to be headed to.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I would.

I doubt it. Highly.

This has little to do with faith and more to do with the "I hate Bush and will use every opportunity that is presented to me to belittle him as a human and president" train...every body jump on board.

[The Tower]

You're one of the ungrateful hundreds of people I come across every week. Count your blessings that we DO have the freedoms in the this country that we have today.
Yeah, I count my blessings everyday that I have the right to marry my partner of 12 years.... :rolleyes:

I appreciate everything that comes from the Bill of Rights. However, in this day and age the U.S. is not unique in personal freedoms. Canada and most Western European countries generally offer more liberty.

[markolas]

I dont know. They'd probably get their panties in a wad and say its one more piece of bread added into the handbasket-to-hell this country seems to be headed to.

See, that's my point. They're not just talking about generic prayer, they're pushing they're own specific belief system.

[mylittledemon]

Gee, it would be nice if life were that simple.


I would.


No you wouldn't. Because the mayor and the governor have lived thru the devastation...they are seeing it first hand. So if either of the two of them were pleading on TV or the radio to pray for those that are suffering, and you got UPSET about it, then you need to re-evaluate your decency.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I dont know. They'd probably get their panties in a wad and say its one more piece of bread added into the handbasket-to-hell this country seems to be headed to.

Well not so much that as "What the f*ck is the President talking about?" I'm thinking that would be my first reaction.

[estranged4life]

what if he told everyone to chant the Sacred Title of the Lotus Sutra? What would the Christians say then?

"Well honey, The President did say it was alright for us to chant the Kama Sutra...So if he says it is alright I say who are we to judge the office of the President?"

[dissention]

:wavey:


You never called Christians vile, just the religion.

[markolas]

Well not so much that as "What the f*ck is the President talking about?" I'm thinking that would be my first reaction.

Well, of course I'm assuming that the Christians would know what the Lotus Sutra is. :D But I'm sure after they figured it out, all hell would break loose.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You never called Christians vile, just the religion.

Which millions of people are a part of. Don't you consider that sort of a blanket statement made not only about the religion but those who practice it?

[dissention]

I do get it. I understand it fully. But I think that in times of crises such as the New Orleans disaster, it's inappropraite to roast the Prez or any public official because they request a prayer from the American public.

Requesting a prayer is quite different from "calling upon all Americans to pray to Almight God."

Boy, that just steps all over your rights as an American citizen doesnt it? If the Mayor of New Orleans or Governor of the state of Louisiana said the same thing, I'm sure no one would be making so much of a fuss about it.

No, because when Blanco did so, she did it in a respectful manner by not bringing in God to appease the fundies.

[mylittledemon]

Which millions of people are a part of. Don't you consider that sort of a blanket statement made not only about the religion but those who practice it?


I think Christians give Christianity a bad name. If there truly is no God, then I'd still not mock him or those that choose to follow their faith.

In a way, it's like playing with a ouija board or summoning spirits...I dont really believe in that stuff, but I sure as hell aint gonna mess with it.

[dissention]

No, because faith actually "grounds" an individual and provides them with the support to make ethical and moral decisions that betters the country.

I love how Christians and people of religion say they want to talk about such things in a respectful manner, but then they say stuff like this.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No, because when Blanco did so, she did it in a respectful manner by not bringing in God to appease the fundies.

Because if we dare mention GOD anywhere in American culture it is a complete insult, a slap in the face! My "primordial ooze" what have we been thinking?

[SomeKindaMother]

You really are somewhat your own kind of 'god' when it comes to quoting abilities. I am most impressed. I'll give it a shot.

I don't think the generic standards judgement rests exclusively with the non-believers.

I have no doubt that is true.


You would be really surprised how prevalent that kind of judgement is.

Exactly. I was more or less, 'holding up a mirror'.


I don't judge christians- I'm afraid of them. Dubya and Robertson are lunatic idiots- too bad W is in office. However, I have met many "wolves in sheep's clothing", so I have to be wary.

Please don't ever make the mistake of thinking that Christians aren't just as aware of the 'wolves'. I recognize them and keep them an arms length. They are everywhere, but that cannot stop me from gleaning the good I can from my 'religion'.


I get a little concerned whenever the government shows any kind of endorsement of religion.

I totally agree. Didn't ever mean to imply otherwise.


Because injected religion into government is against the law. AND it represents doctrine that has and continues to injure people to this day. It's the same concept with the confederate flag or the swastika.

I understand your point and it very well may be valid. I was attempting to point out that I live with a variety of different biases every day...however slight. It's my responsibility as a parent to teach my child how to make their own objective decisions regardless of government or even necessarily, church.


You might be if your family was killed by a suicide bomber that was acting in the name of religion.

Point taken....but again, I'm assuming this person is not a bomber, but an average person like me. I mean I don't hate all truck drivers because one ran over and killed 2 cousins of mine. Poor example, but I hope you take my point.


Because sometimes the place that one holds holy has caused great suffering on the part of the offended individual.

Again...how is that the responsibility of 'all'. So are the Palestinians and Israelies correct to continue lashing out? If I say 'God Bless You"...to you because I truly care about you...and feel I am offering you the best wish I can in doing so...you will be offended because of the suffering caused you by other Christian 'wolves'? They aren't even real 'Christians'.


I think he shouldn't have suggested prayer of any sort. If anything, he should have called it a "day of remembrance" or a "day of sympathy/mourning". Prayer indicates spirituality.

I accept your point here. He should have done that. Would it have been offensive to you if he'd have added that he would also encourage those who are so inclined to pray to their God or Higher Power?


Kelly, I thought your post was great. I wish the world were a more peaceful, kind and respectful place. Unfortunately, religion has been a force for violence, conflict and misery much more than peace and kindness in our world. It's a sad thing.

I agree with you. But I will not let the forces of 'evil' or whatever, drive me away from my beliefs. I don't have to take all the pompous, self-righteous crap. If religion hadn't been the force for the violence and confict...something else would have. Power seekers will use whatever tool available to them to achieve their means. If religion seems the best choice, that's what they will use. But religion does offer peace and kindness...vastly. It's just not always as proclaimed as the other. Thank you for your kind words.

Kelly :)

[mylittledemon]

Requesting a prayer is quite different from "calling upon all Americans to pray to Almight God.".


Ok, so he didnt word it very P.C. Big deal. He's the President...he's got a protected freedom of speech. Let him say what he feels appropriate in this time of crisis for those people.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I love how Christians and people of religion say they want to talk about such things in a respectful manner, but then they say stuff like this.

What? That I am pro-faith, not afraid to admit it, and think that it helps people make better decisions in life?

[dissention]

Well not so much that as "What the f*ck is the President talking about?" I'm thinking that would be my first reaction.

And then you'd feign great offense and outrage about it as soon as Coultergeist publishes her first column about such comments.

[dissention]

Ok, so he didnt word it very P.C. Big deal. He's the President...he's got a protected freedom of speech. Let him say what he feels appropriate in this time of crisis for those people.

Ah, I see. Let him say whatever he feels like saying in a time of crisis. That's logical. :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And then you'd feign great offense and outrage about it as soon as Coultergeist publishes her first column about such comments.

I don't think I would find it offensive as much as I would confusing? My first thoughts would be...I thought the President was a protestant? :shrug:

[dissention]

What? That I am pro-faith, not afraid to admit it, and think that it helps people make better decisions in life?

No, your implications that those who don't have "faith" or beliefs in "God" aren't as well-rounded, ethical, and moral as those who do.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ah, I see. Let him say whatever he feels like saying in a time of crisis. That's logical. :rolleyes:

No, not just a time of crisis, but anytime.

[strandinthewind]

You are completely deluded. When the day comes that we have a President who's completely removed from his faith, then God (literally) help us.

I do think, though I love ya hard, you are missing the point. The Pres. can say anything he wants. It is the way he said it that was a wink wink to the far right Christian majority. Is that that hard to see? I mean why not choose to be inclusive and just say "I urge Americans to pray" - why jab the knife into some's wounds in what is supposed to be a humble statement?

[mylittledemon]

Ah, I see. Let him say whatever he feels like saying in a time of crisis. That's logical. :rolleyes:


As a matter of fact it is! Glad you agree with me.

[markolas]

I don't think I would find it offensive as much as I would confusing? My first thoughts would be...I thought the President was a protestant? :shrug:

Well, maybe he could preface it by saying he had abandoned false religion in favor of the True Buddhism of Nichiren. :eek: :laugh:

[dissention]

No, not just a time of crisis, but anytime.

Yeah, as long as he's a Resmuglican. :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

I'll give you thoughtful.

Well, he is correct about Christmas being pinned on that day because it was an attempt to bring in the pagan pastoral communities of Northern Europe :shrug:

[amber]

No, because faith actually "grounds" an individual and provides them with the support to make ethical and moral decisions that betters the country.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[mylittledemon]

I do think, though I love ya hard, you are missing the point. The Pres. can say anything he wants. It is the way he said it that was a wink wink to the far right Christian majority. Is that that hard to see? I mean why not choose to be inclusive and just say "I urge Americans to pray" - why jab the knife into some's wounds in what is supposed to be a humble statement?


Now you're hitting the nail on the head. We've worked from your extreme opinion to mine, and now we're here at the middle ground. Now that the emotions have flared down, we're thinking a little more clearly about it. I think it's ok for the President to say what he felt lead to say, but I also agree with you that he should've been more "P.C." He should have been inclusive and said that he urges Americans to pray. Then again, like I said before, he's got sack for throwing his own beliefs out there.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I do think, though I love ya hard, you are missing the point. The Pres. can say anything he wants. It is the way he said it that was a wink wink to the far right Christian majority. Is that that hard to see? I mean why not choose to be inclusive and just say "I urge Americans to pray" - why jab the knife into some's wounds in what is supposed to be a humble statement?

Well if it was, as you say, a “wink wink” to the right...then BRAVO to the President for finally going to Wal-Mart and getting him a stronger backbone. But I don't think it was a "wink wink" as much as it was him or his speech writers not realizing that they could "offend" so many Americans with the inclusion of the phrase "Almighty God".

[strandinthewind]

I do get it. I understand it fully. But I think that in times of crises such as the New Orleans disaster, it's inappropraite to roast the Prez or any public official because they request a prayer from the American public. Boy, that just steps all over your rights as an American citizen doesnt it? If the Mayor of New Orleans or Governor of the state of Louisiana said the same thing, I'm sure no one would be making so much of a fuss about it.

Well, Gov. Blanco did urge people to pray and Gate and Garden posted about it being offensive. To me, the general request to pray really has no religious connotations per se - but W could not leave it there. He had to reference Christianity and he knew he would be excluding people when he did that.

[dissention]

As a matter of fact it is! Glad you agree with me.

Of course I agree. Those comments he made just mere days after the hurricane about rebuilding Trent Lott a "great house" and sitting on his new porch were so appropriate.

This is the man who said he'd rather run a dictatorship and that he denounced interracial marriage, of course, so he has some lovely discretionary skills.

[mylittledemon]

Well, he is correct about Christmas being pinned on that day because it was an attempt to bring in the pagan pastoral communities of Northern Europe :shrug:


Although Christmas may have begun under that pretense, to bring in the pagans and "convert" them...it is by no means a pagan holiday. it doesnt matter what day of the year it is, the original concept was to have a day to celebrate the birth of Christ.

[mylittledemon]

Of course I agree. Those comments he made just mere days after the hurricane about rebuilding Trent Lott a "great house" and sitting on his new porch were so appropriate.

This is the man who said he'd rather run a dictatorship and that he denounced interracial marriage, of course, so he has some lovely discretionary skills.


Whoo...ouch. Trent Lott is a sonovabitch from what I've read. He's a greedy monger looking to line his own pockets. Several of my mother's side of the family grew up and lived in the part of Mississippi that he is from, and their opinions of the guy have always been poor.

[amber]

Now you're hitting the nail on the head. We've worked from your extreme opinion to mine, and now we're here at the middle ground. Now that the emotions have flared down, we're thinking a little more clearly about it. I think it's ok for the President to say what he felt lead to say, but I also agree with you that he should've been more "P.C." He should have been inclusive and said that he urges Americans to pray. Then again, like I said before, he's got sack for throwing his own beliefs out there.
Yeah, a sack of crap.

and just in case you were talking about me, my emotions were never "flared". :laugh: However, my sense of logic was.

[dissention]

Then again, like I said before, he's got sack for throwing his own beliefs out there.

Sack? :laugh: Don't you mean savvy political skills? Throwing his beliefs out there is what rallies up the fundie base. Jesus Christ is his favorite philosopher, after all.

[mylittledemon]

Yeah, a sack of crap.

and just in case you were talking about me, my emotions were never "flared". :laugh: However, my sense of logic was.


Haha...glad you picked up on my slight sarcasm. I love ya too, just the same. I knew something was flared there...just couldnt, uh, put my finger on it.

[The Tower]

I doubt it. Highly.

This has little to do with faith and more to do with the "I hate Bush and will use every opportunity that is presented to me to belittle him as a human and president" train...every body jump on board.
You know zippo about what I think. This has nothing to with "faith"- it has everything to do with keeping religion out of government. It doens't matter who in government advocates religion.

Which millions of people are a part of. Don't you consider that sort of a blanket statement made not only about the religion but those who practice it?
While I have referred to the religion that is christianity as vile, I have never referred to christians as vile, which is quite a different thing all together.

Anyone with an ounce of historical knowledge is well aware of the atrocities committed in the name of the christianity. Not to mention large passages in the bible that I personally consider vile.

[mylittledemon]

Sack? :laugh: Don't you mean savvy political skills? Throwing his beliefs out there is what rallies up the fundie base. Jesus Christ is his favorite philosopher, after all.


I dont think his call for prayer for the suffering New Orleans people was an appropriate time for savvy politics.

[DrummerDeanna]

Well there is a great story about the National Day of Prayer on NPR right now.

It was celebrated at churches, mosques, synagogs....

BEWARE - the story may mention God - listen at your own risk :rolleyes:

[dissention]

I dont think his call for prayer for the suffering New Orleans people was an appropriate time for savvy politics.

Nor was it an appropriate time two weeks ago to pose for photo-ops on Air Force One and continue his vacation for days after the hurricane hit, but he did it anyway.

[markolas]

Well there is a great story about the National Day of Prayer on NPR right now.

It was celebrated at churches, mosques, synagogs....

BEWARE - the story may mention God - listen at your own risk :rolleyes:

Meh...it would be fine if this National Day of Prayer were truly ecumenical. But, it was started as a strictly Judeo-Christian (and mostly Christian) thing. I generally hate listening/watching supposedly "all-inclusive" programs on religion, because they almost never represent me.

[DrummerDeanna]

Meh...it would be fine if this National Day of Prayer were truly ecumenical. But, it was started as a strictly Judeo-Christian (and mostly Christian) thing. I generally hate listening/watching supposedly "all-inclusive" programs on religion, because they almost never represent me.


Ok - but many religions are participating :shrug:

OH NO! THE CHRISTIANS STARTED IT...why is that bad??


Really - not all Christians are bad - not all large Christian churches are bad even...

[strandinthewind]

Now you're hitting the nail on the head. We've worked from your extreme opinion to mine, and now we're here at the middle ground. Now that the emotions have flared down, we're thinking a little more clearly about it. I think it's ok for the President to say what he felt lead to say, but I also agree with you that he should've been more "P.C." He should have been inclusive and said that he urges Americans to pray.

I don't think my opinion ever changed :shrug:

I have always maintained Rove carefully crafted the phrase "all Americans pray to Almighty God" in an attempt to woo the far far religious right and the phrase was inappropriate.

Then again, like I said before, he's got sack for throwing his own beliefs out there.

Even if it is insulting to people. I guess my faith has taught me not to be that cruel.

[markolas]

Ok - but many religions are participating :shrug:

Many? Or just 2 or 3?

OH NO! THE CHRISTIANS STARTED IT...why is that bad??

ARGGHH!! I never said that!!


Really - not all Christians are bad - not all large Christian churches are bad even...

I never said that either!!

[strandinthewind]

Well if it was, as you say, a “wink wink” to the right...then BRAVO to the President for finally going to Wal-Mart and getting him a stronger backbone. But I don't think it was a "wink wink" as much as it was him or his speech writers not realizing that they could "offend" so many Americans with the inclusion of the phrase "Almighty God".

If you believe that they did not know exactly how offensive that would be, then you truly know nothing of W's administration and the constant effort to establish Christianity as the official religion of the US.

[ontheEdgeof17]

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tmcgold/deargod_stop.jpg

[mylittledemon]

I don't think my opinion ever changed :shrug:

I have always maintained Rove carefully crafted the phrase "all Americans pray to Almighty God" in an attempt to woo the far far religious right and the phrase was inappropriate.



Even if it is insulting to people. I guess my faith has taught me not to be that cruel.


I think maybe you oughta take the advice in your own signature.

[strandinthewind]

Well there is a great story about the National Day of Prayer on NPR right now.

It was celebrated at churches, mosques, synagogs....

BEWARE - the story may mention God - listen at your own risk :rolleyes:

I think it is great people are participating. Also, people do not get upset at the mention of God and you know that. They get upset at the Pres. of US trying to establish Christianity as the official religion of the US in violation of the Const.

[strandinthewind]

I think maybe you oughta take the advice in your own signature.

Actually, I am. I will defend the rights of everyone to exercise their own religion every day of my life. I think the Pres. of the US trying to establish Christianity as the official religion takes that right away.

Out of curiosity - do you think Christianity should be the official religion of the US?

[macfanken]

No, because faith actually "grounds" an individual and provides them with the support to make ethical and moral decisions that betters the country.


:shocked:

His faith doesn't seem to be working very well for Dubya then. Just about every decision he's made over the last five years has been bad for this country or caused chaos in some part of the world. His faith seems to give him the blind confidence to make decisions without regard to the consequences.

[dissention]

Actually, I am. I will defend the rights of everyone to exercise their own religion every day of my life. I think the Pres. of the US trying to establish Christianity as the official religion takes that right away.

Out of curiosity - do you think Christianity should be the official religion of the US?

I think it should be Kabbalah, but that's just me. Kabbalah Water for every taxpayer and every third Monday in August will be proclaimed Madonna Day. Tit tassles optional.

[dissention]

:shocked:

His faith doesn't seem to be working very well for Dubya then. Just about every decision he's made over the last five years has been bad for this country or caused chaos in some part of the world. His faith seems to give him the blind confidence to make decisions without regard to the consequences.

But God talks to him. :]

[markolas]

I think it should be Kabbalah, but that's just me. Kabbalah Water for every taxpayer and every third Monday in August will be proclaimed Madonna Day. Tit tassles optional.


Grrr...NO! True Buddhism of Nichiren, I say! You get to wrap pretty beads around your hands and pray in front of a mandala. How cool is that? :D :p

[mylittledemon]

Actually, I am. I will defend the rights of everyone to exercise their own religion every day of my life. I think the Pres. of the US trying to establish Christianity as the official religion takes that right away.

Out of curiosity - do you think Christianity should be the official religion of the US?


Since when has the President tried to do that?

No, I dont think the US should have any "official" religion. But I do think we should have an official language. But, that, is another story.

[strandinthewind]

Since when has the President tried to do that?

His statement "all Americans pray to Almighty God" is a step toward that. But, if you don't think Bush and his cronies are constantly chipping away at the separation of church and state, then google the topic.

But and again, why not be inclusive with just "pray" instead of exclusive with what he said?

[gldstwmn]

Hmm, well I just did a search and Jefferson and Franklin both did believe but neither subscribed to any particular religion. Someone once said that Franklin was an atheist but they were wrong. Hence another reason I should do my own research!

Jefferson and Franklin were not Christian!

I was almost positive Franklin was an atheist or at least agnostic.

[mylittledemon]

His statement "all Americans pray to Almighty God" is a step toward that. But, if you don't think Bush and his cronies are constantly chipping away at the separation of church and state, then google the topic.


Bush and his cronies are chipping away at the separation between church and state?! HA! Hogwash. That's your paranoia coming thru right there. They have MUCH more pertinent things at hand than trying to push their faith on people. Google the topic? I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net, or hear on the news for that matter. We all get jaded and half-assed views of the way things really happen form the media.

[gldstwmn]

This quote is awesome. Sigworthy. That Jefferson... :thumbsup:

He always is. :nod: That's why they chose him to write the Declaration Of Independence.

[GypsySorcerer]

He always is. :nod: That's why they chose him to write the Declaration Of Independence.
Jefferson was certainly eloquent, but his commitment to civil liberties was at times questionable. Much of it was lip service, though he stood firm on separation of church and state.

[The Tower]

Bush and his cronies are chipping away at the separation between church and state?! HA! Hogwash. That's your paranoia coming thru right there.
Yeah. That's it..... :rolleyes:

OY!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yeah. That's it..... :rolleyes:

OY!

There all Nazi's and they are coming to take your rights away!

RUN, RUN FAST! :lol:

[Sapphire Girl]

I believe the term that many of the U.S. founding fathers called themselves was "deist". A deist is someone who believes in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature, with rejection of supernatural revelation.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I believe the term that many of the U.S. founding fathers called themselves was "deist". A deist is someone who believes in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature, with rejection of supernatural revelation.

Correct. Simply, they believe God is a watcher...He created the world but there is no "intervention" by him on earth.

[mylittledemon]

He always is. :nod: That's why they chose him to write the Declaration Of Independence.


Jefferson was right:

The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which the clergy have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Moses Robinson

He's talking about stripping away the ritualistic dogma that the Catholics, Baptists and all the other man-made sects of Christianity have created. And I think he's right. Christianity gets a bad rap because of the men of faith that lead people astray.

[SuzeQuze]

I don't think my opinion ever changed :shrug:

I have always maintained Rove carefully crafted the phrase "all Americans pray to Almighty God" in an attempt to woo the far far religious right and the phrase was inappropriate.

:nod: Not a single word is in that by mistake.

Amber, a comment on faith being "greedy", I don't get that. To me it is through humility that a person gains faith because you are admitting that you are not in control. We have free will and we make choices and they have consequences, but I do think that there is a higher power as well. I do not understand your theory on that point.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Jefferson was right:

The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which the clergy have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Moses Robinson

He's talking about stripping away the ritualistic dogma that the Catholics, Baptists and all the other man-made sects of Christianity have created. And I think he's right. Christianity gets a bad rap because of the men of faith that lead people astray.

Ok...Catholic, not man-made...God made!

Hey, I have to defend my faith here. lol

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:nod: Not a single word is in that by mistake.

Amber, a comment on faith being "greedy", I don't get that. To me it is through humility that a person gains faith because you are admitting that you are not in control. We have free will and we make choices and they have consequences, but I do think that there is a higher power as well. I do not understand your theory on that point.

Very good post :nod:

[SuzeQuze]

:shocked:

His faith doesn't seem to be working very well for Dubya then. Just about every decision he's made over the last five years has been bad for this country or caused chaos in some part of the world. His faith seems to give him the blind confidence to make decisions without regard to the consequences.

Yes, strangely, on Anderson Cooper 360 tonite a higher up in FEMA, one of the old guard, said that everything went very well from '93 to '99. But after that (Dubya gets into office) it went downhill where there was an exodus of folks with experience and many higher ups with no experience were hired. That is only one of the many poor decisions Dubya has made from which we are suffering dire consequences.

[SuzeQuze]

Very good post :nod:

Haha, it seems we agree on this one thing anyay.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Haha, it seems we agree on this one thing anyay.

I know...there is a chance it could never happen again.

Let's enjoy for now! lol

[dissention]

Yes, strangely, on Anderson Cooper 360 tonite a higher up in FEMA, one of the old guard, said that everything went very well from '93 to '99. But after that (Dubya gets into office) it went downhill where there was an exodus of folks with experience and many higher ups with no experience were hired. That is only one of the many poor decisions Dubya has made from which we are suffering dire consequences.

I watched that in disbelief and thought to myself "You are so gonna lose your job, you dumb motherf*cker." :laugh:

[SuzeQuze]

I was almost positive Franklin was an atheist or at least agnostic.

I think the latter is true. If interested, go to the link in my sig, it has his ideas up there too. I just googled "Founding Fathers religion".

[SuzeQuze]

I watched that in disbelief and thought to myself "You are so gonna lose your job, you dumb motherf*cker." :laugh:

Nads of steel. Anderson asked him about it, "aren't you going to get in trouble" and he said that some executives have quietly praised him for speaking out. :shocked: I thought it was really cool for him to do that. Although he may be looking for a job soon. :laugh:

[dissention]

Nads of steel. Anderson asked him about it, "aren't you going to get in trouble" and he said that some executives have quietly praised him for speaking out. :shocked: I thought it was really cool for him to do that. Although he may be looking for a job soon. :laugh:

I kept looking at the screen to see if he was a former employee, but was shocked when I found out he still works for FEMA. He's toast; there's no way they'll let him criticize the agency like that and get away with it.

What did you think of that chief and the city official? :shocked: Damn. And that interview afterwards was brutal, I was half expecting the chief to attack that smug porker standing next to him.

And Anderson's "Reporter's Notebook" was especially good tonight. Great stuff.

[SuzeQuze]

I kept looking at the screen to see if he was a former employee, but was shocked when I found out he still works for FEMA. He's toast; there's no way they'll let him criticize the agency like that and get away with it.

What did you think of that chief and the city official? :shocked: Damn. And that interview afterwards was brutal, I was half expecting the chief to attack that smug porker standing next to him.

And Anderson's "Reporter's Notebook" was especially good tonight. Great stuff.

Well, I missed the last 15 minutes. I saw some of that argument but couldn't make out what the real issues were. They still seemed to be babbling when Anderson was trying to talk to them. I want to see the transcript to catch up on what happened.

I was just listening to a woman relating her experience (on Laura Flanders in for Randy) in a "shelter" and they were supervising her when she went to the bathroom. :eek: She said she felt more like she was in a concentration camp than a shelter so she left and just walked. They treated her like a criminal, it is unreal.

[irishgrl]

I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort. And I assume, like for all other biological entities, that the business of, and reason for, living, is living. And the reason we are on earth is because earth can support life. And we have kids and take care of them for the same reason that every living thing on earth does - because that's how biology works.
What are these questions you want answered that only "god" can answer? And as far as "knowing what the hell all this crap we go thru in our lives is for" - it's just the business of being alive. :shrug: Why does it have to be for something more than simply existing? Like anything else, we come into existence, we sustain our lives the best we can, and then we die. Why are humans so self centered as to think that there has to be more meaning? And why are we so greedy that we think there needs to be MORE for us, after we die? Sheesh. It boggles my mind. And of course, humans are the only species to occupy themselves with this kind of thinking.
I love knowing how things in the universe work, and we are finding out more scientifically all the time - but I certainly don't need/want this information to feel comforted, or to feel that my life has meaning - Also, I don't need a concept of "God" to help me know how to behave in life.
I intended to go all the way through this to the end before posting but I just had to respond to Amber's comment.

Personally, I think there is more to life than just "living." we DO have a purpose IMO, and that is to refine our human foibles and evolve our way back to the Godhead. Earth is more than just an environment to raise our children. Animals simply eat/breed/die. Humans THINK. That is what sets us apart. We realize our obligations to each other and ourselves. Think about it: When someone does something that you believe is harmful to another, dont you get outraged? As you should. Deep down, in our cores, we recognize that a cardinal "commandment" (if you will) has been broken.
We have consciences. I personally think the Eastern philosophy is more on target with its explanation re: the purpose of Reincarnation. IMO: a wise and loving God, recognizing that humans are flawed, and wanting us all to be reunited eventually in spirit, (that, after all, is the true purpose of Heaven, to be reunited with God) allows us as many lifetimes as it takes to "get it right"
so that, in the end we can again be One with the Creator. Jesus showed us the way by his example. Turn the Other Cheek. put away your possessions.
Love your neighbor. Focus on God.

I myself think Earth is a hard place to be. We all have suffered in various ways....but, as a sword is tested by fire, and a diamond is coaxed out of the matrix, we humans must also walk the gauntlet of earthly life...

again, JMO.

[dissention]

Well, I missed the last 15 minutes. I saw some of that argument but couldn't make out what the real issues were. They still seemed to be babbling when Anderson was trying to talk to them. I want to see the transcript to catch up on what happened.

The chief was angry over the city officials essentially ignoring the hundreds of latino citizens that weren't given a shelter to stay in; they're still living out in the streets after three weeks. A lot of them don't speak English and don't know what's going on. Relief agencies told the chief that they won't go in to help without police protection. FEMA has been promising to come in for ages and still haven't rolled in; they were supposed ot be there this morning, didn't show up, and everyone had to be rounded up again and sent back out to the streets. City officials are accusing the chief of playing politics because he's pissed over not winning the mayoral election last year.

I was just listening to a woman relating her experience (on Laura Flanders in for Randy) in a "shelter" and they were supervising her when she went to the bathroom. :eek: She said she felt more like she was in a concentration camp than a shelter so she left and just walked. They treated her like a criminal, it is unreal.

It's disgusting. These people have been violated as human beings so much that it's a wonder that any of them can still have a little bit of dignity left.

[irishgrl]

my two cents:
I could see the President asking Americans to take a moment and reflect (those who WANT TO can pray for cripes sake) and pay respect to the suffering that occurred. Americans as a whole are generous people. We empathize.

But to actually suggest a "prayer" is a definite sop to the (so-called) Moral Majority, the radical element that senses political victory within their grasp.
This has to stop.

I think the President should have suggested a moment of silence. What he actually said would NOT have passed Supreme Court Review.....no matter how well meaning. Showing respect in whatever fashion seems best, harms no one. And IMO, that is what the Dingleberry should have done.

[strandinthewind]

Bush and his cronies are chipping away at the separation between church and state?! HA! Hogwash. That's your paranoia coming thru right there. They have MUCH more pertinent things at hand than trying to push their faith on people. Google the topic? I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net, or hear on the news for that matter. We all get jaded and half-assed views of the way things really happen form the media.

An examination of his record and the continued movement of conservatism to religious conservatism proves me right. Sadly, you are not willing to admit that. But, you are not alone. Many are unwilling to admit it no matter what the facts demonstrate.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, strangely, on Anderson Cooper 360 tonite a higher up in FEMA, one of the old guard, said that everything went very well from '93 to '99. But after that (Dubya gets into office) it went downhill where there was an exodus of folks with experience and many higher ups with no experience were hired. That is only one of the many poor decisions Dubya has made from which we are suffering dire consequences.

That is because every single thing W has done has failed. If anyone can show me something he totally succeeded at - I am all ears. But, I submit there are none.

[dissention]

Well, I missed the last 15 minutes. I saw some of that argument but couldn't make out what the real issues were. They still seemed to be babbling when Anderson was trying to talk to them. I want to see the transcript to catch up on what happened.

Here you go :xoxo: :

COOPER: If you're asking yourselves how all of these people here who are hard pressed and have had such a tough time are always able to keep their cool through impossibly difficult circumstances, the answer is that, well, it's not always possible. Today there was an argument in the town of Kenner, Louisiana between Nick Congemi, the chief of police, and a man named Cedric Floyd, the city manager. Here's some of what we saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONGEMI: Well where did all that food just go to then? Where'd all that food just go to then? What is this truck doing here, if you just pulled up provided it -- it's almost 2:00 and you provide it after we fed these people?

FLOYD: I'm glad you ...

CONGEMI: I'm glad you're talking about it. You're talking about the meals. Where's the housing for these people? That's what you're supposed to be providing. The meals are easy. You can do that --

FLOYD: Guess what. All you're doing is making a political scene.

CONGEMI: No. I'm not making a political scene.

FLOYD: Don't get in my face. I've been feeding them every day.

CONGEMI: You ain't feeding nothing.

FLOYD: Guess what, Rafael, have we been feeding the people every day?

CONGEMI: But tell the truth. The truth is that you all don't want these people here and you're trying to run them off.

FLOYD: Chief, Guess what. I'm a minority. And you discriminate. You discriminate. Guess what.

CONGEMI: You're a rich minority. You're a rich minority.

FLOYD: That's all right. Guess what.

CONGEMI: You act like this rest of these people. Take care of these people. You try to switch gears on them. Just provide for these people. You have not provided --

FLOYD: All I'm saying is this. Every day -- every day the city government --

CONGEMI: You run off your mouth about how much you care about these people, and you don't give them anything.

FLOYD: Go, chief.

CONGEMI: As a matter of fact, you've got 500 families displaced, and you all are happy with the 500 families that have been displaced. Otherwise, you would have done like you've done for your minorities, and put these people in gymnasiums where they have air-conditioning.

FLOYD: We don't have any shelters.

CONGEMI: What are those buildings? What are those buildings?

FLOYD: Chief --

CONGEMI: You all said that FEMA would be here first thing this morning. They were not here first thing this morning. We had to come and load these people up and get them registered, because you did not have the vision to have them registered for FEMA. If we didn't take them to the police station and have them registered for FEMA, they would've --

FLOYD: But that's part of city government.

CONGEMI: That's right. That's what you're supposed to be doing.

FLOYD: Guess what.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well joining us live is one of the men you just saw passionately discussing things. The chief of police -- I'm being polite -- is Nick Congemi of the Kenner Police Department. We are pleased he joins us. Also joining us is Phil Ramone, Chief of Staff of the Kenner City Administration with the mayor's office. Gentleman, appreciate you both being with us. First of all, chief, what was the argument from your perspective about? You were concerned about housing for some Hispanic residents in your community.

CONGEMI: Yes. I felt that they were being discriminated against. I felt they were being forgotten. This was a group of people whose homes had been destroyed, whose apartments had been destroyed. And the city was taking a position that they were providing food. Well, food and water and ice is very simple. I was asking that the city provide these people with shelter. It makes no difference how much water, ice, and food you bring to them, they're still out on the street. They need a roof over their head. And I think the city has the capability --

COOPER: You're representing the city. Why don't they have a roof over their head?

PHIL RAMONE, CHIEF OF STAFF, KENNER CITY ADMIN.: The city has been providing transportation and shelter needs for our entire community. We haven't discriminated against anyone.

COOPER: What about these people, though? Are they --

RAMONE: Chief Congemi has worked with this administration. We talked about it. And he adamantly opposed opening shelters in the city of Kenner. And Mayor Capitano opened a shelter and worked with Jefferson Parish to maintain two shelters. This community here that was hit, and very unfortunately lost most of their homes and roofs, we have been accommodating them to the best of our need, to the best of our ability.

COOPER: What does that mean? Because they're sleeping where they were living.

RAMONE: Providing food, water, and ice. We are looking --

COOPER: So they don't have a shelter.

RAMONE: There is no shelter being operated right now in the city of Kenner. And one of the problems we had in dealing with the shelter is that we did not get adequate police protection. That's not a derogatory remark against the chief. He doesn't have the manpower to provide us --

COOPER: But it sounds like, frankly, FEMA didn't even discover Kenner exists until last week sometime --

CONGEMI: That's ridiculous about the police protection. We have plenty of police protection. We have the 175th military police from Missouri that's stationed next to us. There's plenty of police protection. There's a lot of people -- you know, there's a misconception about these Hispanic people. The fire department decided to come over today, and they wanted to help dispense the meals, and they were calling us to provide protection. Well, these are law-abiding citizens. They've never created any problems. They have never created any crimes. They're good people.

COOPER: Well how many people are in need of shelter in Kenner right now? You know, I don't get why, almost three weeks after the storm, there's not a shelter for these people or any other people that want it.

RAMONE: We have been meeting with FEMA trying to get a disaster center opened in the city of Kenner, and we have not been able to do so.

COOPER: Do you buy that, that --

CONGEMI: It's all bull. We have people -- now, look. If you were standing here right now, and someone told you I'm going to give you food, water, and ice for the next 72 hours but you have to stand out in the elements for the next 30 to 90 days waiting for FEMA or anybody else to put a shelter over you, your family, and your children, I think it's absolutely ridiculous and it's sinful. And this city government should, at least, put these people inside of a gymnasium until they decide where they can go from there. These people do not even speak the language. They're totally lost.

COOPER: But the man in the argument was just saying that the sheriff has political ambitions. Do you believe politics is what's going on here?

RAMONE: I believe this is probably the worst type of politics I've ever witnessed. Chief Congemi and his office has done a fair job. Did a better than average job. But to say that the administration has turned a blind eye to any resident of that community is fact less and it's really irresponsible. I'm ashamed.

COOPER: Final thought to you.

CONGEMI: Well he's ashamed of everything. The truth of the matter is it has nothing to do with politics. Every time something comes up where there's a deficiency in city government they try to cast it off in some other area, calling it politics or something else. The true fact is, and you know it, is that they do not have shelter for these people. And it has absolutely nothing to do with politics.

COOPER: Well, I tell you what. We'd love to come out next week and drive around with both of you.

RAMONE: The chief ran unsuccessfully against the mayor last year and lost his bid for mayor and he's done --

COOPER: You say it's politics.

RAMONE: It's politics.

COOPER: I want to come out next week and visit both of you. Is that all right?

CONGEMI: Sure. Absolutely. Looking forward to it.

COOPER: We'll go around Kenner. Appreciate that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It was pretty darned vicious, if I do say so myself.

[dissention]

That is because every single thing W has done has failed. If anyone can show me something he totally succeeded at - I am all ears. But, I submit there are none.

Has he totally succeeded at funding his faith-based initiatives? :lol:

[SuzeQuze]

Here you go :xoxo: :

...
--------------------------------------------------------------------

It was pretty darned vicious, if I do say so myself.

I <3 you. Now I go read.

On Edit: I don't know who to believe in that argument but the city officials should not be making excuses for obviously neglectful treatment. I'm sure they are completely overwhelmed but can't they just make a call and get them on buses somewhere? Of course they can, they've just put these poor people very low on their list.

[strandinthewind]

Has he totally succeeded at funding his faith-based initiatives? :lol:

Well, he even failed in his efforts in that. More than one has publicly stated they will not take the money if they cannot proselytize, which I believe is forbidden, though I am not that sure.

[irishgrl]

another thing: I think people get the concepts of "The CHURCH/Religion" and Faith/Spirituality mixed up. The CHURCH (as in Western Christianity or even the Radical view of Islam) has an agenda: control, via fear or political power etc...Faith in an of itself is not an evil thing, it is merely mankind's attempt to explain our place in the Universe and our Relationship with the Creator. It is our acknowledgement that there is a power present greater than ourselves. Other philosophies (Hindu/Tao/Pagan/Wiccan/etc) concentrate on the individual NOT harming another.

Faith/spirituality is positive. Religion via "the Church" has been co-opted and has degenerated into tyranny. When this happened before, the World was plunged into the Dark Ages. I fear we are rushing headlong into even DARKER ages. Please: let the Renaissance come soon...............

[dissention]

Well, he even failed in his efforts in that. More than one has publicly stated they will not take the money if they cannot proselytize, which I believe is forbidden, though I am not that sure.

Awwwwww...

I think we all agree, the past is over.
This is still a dangerous world.
It's a world of madmen and uncertainty
and potential mental losses.

Rarely is the question asked
Is our children learning?
Will the highways of the Internet become more few?
How many hands have I shaked?

They misunderestimate me.
I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity.
I know that the human being and the fish can coexist.
Families is where our nation finds hope, where our wings take dream.

Put food on your family!
Knock down the tollbooth!
Vulcanize society!
Make the pie higher! Make the pie higher!

[sparky]

That is because every single thing W has done has failed. If anyone can show me something he totally succeeded at - I am all ears. But, I submit there are none.

I do believe he has singlehandedly succeeded in destroying the majority of environmental protections put in place in the last 35 years. :xoxo:

[dissention]

I <3 you. Now I go read.

:xoxo:

On Edit: I don't know who to believe in that argument but the city officials should not be making excuses for obviously neglectful treatment. I'm sure they are completely overwhelmed but can't they just make a call and get them on buses somewhere? Of course they can, they've just put these poor people very low on their list.

The city officials are the ones that need to be taken to task. What more can the the chief do? The city officials are responsible for seeing to it that the citizens that they work for are looked after and they are not doing that. It's inexcusable that these people have been out there for three weeks without a place to stay. Where the hell is FEMA and the National Guard? I mean, christ, there's no reason for this.

[dissention]

Bush and his cronies are chipping away at the separation between church and state?! HA! Hogwash. That's your paranoia coming thru right there. They have MUCH more pertinent things at hand than trying to push their faith on people. Google the topic? I don't believe 99% of what I read on the net, or hear on the news for that matter. We all get jaded and half-assed views of the way things really happen form the media.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten about Jesus Day. :woohoo:

[SuzeQuze]

:xoxo:



The city officials are the ones that need to be taken to task. What more can the the chief do? The city officials are responsible for seeing to it that the citizens that they work for are looked after and they are not doing that. It's inexcusable that these people have been out there for three weeks without a place to stay. Where the hell is FEMA and the National Guard? I mean, christ, there's no reason for this.

I do get that they are culpable but whether or not the chief was playing politics is unclear. If he is an R then he definitely was. :lol:

Back at ya :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

I do believe he has singlehandedly succeeded in destroying the majority of environmental protections put in place in the last 35 years. :xoxo:

Well, now fair is fair - my aerosole hairspray alone was 5% of that :laugh:

[irishgrl]

Well, now fair is fair - my aerosole hairspray alone was 5% of that :laugh:

not any more my dear, the CFC's are gone, thus the danger has been reduced.

[strandinthewind]

not any more my dear, the CFC's are gone, thus the danger has been reduced.

Well thank goodness I am of the hook :laugh:

[LongBlackScarf]

Why is it so hard for people to believe there is something greater than ourselves and our meaningless lives here? .

Speaking only for myself here.... I don't have have to justify my good fortune or bad fortune as the work of some Supreme Being. My life is filled with actual living, breathing people who can put their arms around me and hold me to comfort me when I need it. It's filled with people to whom I can speak, and they will speak back to me in return with ideas, jokes, and criticisms. I can hear them, smell them, hug them back and respond to them. In other words, I need no invisible friends. I had one when I was about four, and I gave her up when I realized that tangible was better than fantasy. I stopped believing when I felt that God was just Santa Claus for adults. As for the greatness of the world and its beauty, I turn to Mother Nature and thank "her". I love and respect and also fear nature. I try to take care of the tiny piece of the earth that I borrow daily. And I am surely not frightened of NOT believing in a Supreme Being. Since I know heaven and hell do not exist, they are just the "reward" and "punishment" made up to keep people in line thousands of years ago, I am not expecting to go to either one after I die. When I die, I will very simply be dead as a doornail. Nutshelling it: In my opinion, religion was created by ancient people who needed explanations for things they had no explanations for. I know I have science, common sense, and real people to help me to understand life and its mysteries. These things are all I personally need to get by. Your mileage may vary. :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

^^^ Interestingly, religion has historically fought any scientific explanation for any event seemingly done by the divine.

I mean we know why eartyhquakes happen, hurricanes happen, the earth is rounbd, DNA exists, diseases are caused by bacteria/viruses, etc. I think science and religion can go hand in hand. But, the world's major religions cannot stand that thought for the most part. To me, that is sad.

[sparky]

Speaking only for myself here.... I don't have have to justify my good fortune or bad fortune as the work of some Supreme Being. My life is filled with actual living, breathing people who can put their arms around me and hold me to comfort me when I need it. It's filled with people to whom I can speak, and they will speak back to me in return with ideas, jokes, and criticisms. I can hear them, smell them, hug them back and respond to them. In other words, I need no invisible friends. I had one when I was about four, and I gave her up when I realized that tangible was better than fantasy. I stopped believing when I felt that God was just Santa Claus for adults. As for the greatness of the world and its beauty, I turn to Mother Nature and thank "her". I love and respect and also fear nature. I try to take care of the tiny piece of the earth that I borrow daily. And I am surely not frightened of NOT believing in a Supreme Being. Since I know heaven and hell do not exist, they are just the "reward" and "punishment" made up to keep people in line thousands of years ago, I am not expecting to go to either one after I die. When I die, I will very simply be dead as a doornail. Nutshelling it: In my opinion, religion was created by ancient people who needed explanations for things they had no explanations for. I know I have science, common sense, and real people to help me to understand life and its mysteries. These things are all I personally need to get by. Your mileage may vary. :thumbsup:


Fantastic post.

[irishgrl]

The Law of Karma is not some made up "punishment/reward" phenomenon.
simply put: whatever we say, whatever we do, will come back to us, whether good or ill. Jesus said it this way: "you reap what you sow". Makes perfect sense to me........:shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

Apparently, Adam wasn't perfect: he was obviously inclined to disobedience & susceptible to the lure of forbidden knowledge.

I meant before he fell from grace.

[wondergirl9847]

Again - FAITH is the key word.....God is creator - He is not created - God is infinite. God is not man, God is not woman, God is not thing - God just IS.

Faith is the word. I don't have to explain away every single facet of this - especially since around here it's met with people saying Christians are ignorant etc...why is it that other religions aren't so made fun of around here?

Bottom line - atheists have no more of a grasp on reality than Christians or any other religious group.

Word to this entire post, Deanna. I agree. God just IS, He always WAS and always WILL BE. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending. We cannot comprehend everything, and as has been said time and again in this thread...it takes faith.

Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.

[wondergirl9847]

I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort.

Why are we insecure because we believe in God? :confused: I'm not insecure, I'm a strong person with a stronghold on my faith.

Sorry if I'm posting a lot, I just got home from vacation and getting back to this amazing thread. Thanks for the non-hateful discussion, this is awesome. :)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I guess I'm just not that insecure or in need of that much comfort.

And Christians are insecure...how? Our faith is what gives us strength and grounds us in times of tribulation. We turn to Christ for guidance and support, for we know that amongst all the devastation that plagues are world today, we have the reassurance that at the end of every day we are loved despite ourselves, by the creator of us all.

[LongBlackScarf]

And Christians are insecure...how? Our faith is what gives us strength and grounds us in times of tribulation. We turn to Christ for guidance and support, for we know that amongst all the devastation that plagues are world today, we have the reassurance that at the end of every day we are loved despite ourselves, by the creator of us all.

Why not go talk to a REAL person? A relative? A friend? Why talk to invisible entities/ghosts/gods/sky pixies who can't respond, never DID respond, and won't EVER respond. Jesus never came back! He's been AWOL for 2000 years. Hello?? So in regard to where "God" came from, we get the old "He Was Always There" speech. So then, as an atheist, I can say that all the dust and primordial ooze was just "always there" too. The thing is, I have science on my side to prove how life evolved. There are fossils and other scientific evidence. There is not ONE SINGLE SHRED of evidence that God, nor Jesus, existed. Not ONE. And if you bring up the Shroud Of Turin, I shall beat you senseless with it. Really...I will! :p :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Why not go talk to a REAL person? A relative? A friend? Why talk to invisible entities/ghosts/gods/sky pixies who can't respond, never DID respond, and won't EVER respond. Jesus never came back! He's been AWOL for 2000 years. Hello?? So in regard to where "God" came from, we get the old "He Was Always There" speech. So then, as an atheist, I can say that all the dust and primordial ooze was just "always there" too. The thing is, I have science on my side to prove how life evolved. There are fossils and other scientific evidence. There is not ONE SINGLE SHRED of evidence that God, nor Jesus, existed. Not ONE. And if you bring up the Shroud Of Turin, I shall beat you senseless with it. Really...I will! :p :rolleyes:

And really what is your point in trying to "take" hope away from an individual? So you are a non-believer, that is fine! Why make it a rule to try and prove others "wrong" somehow? I talk to friends and family all the time about my problems; but I also know that when all else fails, at the end of the day, I can let it all rest on the shoulders of the one who bought my pardon on the cross. The one who, to rescue me from danger, used his own precious blood.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

There is not ONE SINGLE SHRED of evidence that God, nor Jesus, existed. Not ONE.

To state that there is no absolute truth would in fact be making a statement of absolute truth in itself, therefore I believe in absolute truths.

If there is such a thing as absolute truth that means conclusively some things will be truth and others error. Therefore it is possible that the existance of God could be a truth to which there is no way to adequately show that there is no God.

I happen to accept the fact that all evidence shows the absolute truth that there is a God, and therefore it is impossible to prove that there is no God.

[LongBlackScarf]

To state that there is no absolute truth would in fact be making a statement of absolute truth in itself, therefore I believe in absolute truths.

If there is such a thing as absolute truth that means conclusively some things will be truth and others error. Therefore it is possible that the existance of God could be a truth to which there is no way to adequately show that there is no God.

I happen to accept the fact that all evidence shows the absolute truth that there is a God, and therefore it is impossible to prove that there is no God.

I don't even think YOU know what you're babbling about, at this junction.

[dissention]

To state that there is no absolute truth would in fact be making a statement of absolute truth in itself, therefore I believe in absolute truths.

If there is such a thing as absolute truth that means conclusively some things will be truth and others error. Therefore it is possible that the existance of God could be a truth to which there is no way to adequately show that there is no God.

I happen to accept the fact that all evidence shows the absolute truth that there is a God, and therefore it is impossible to prove that there is no God.

What?

I didn't comprehend half of that, but what is the evidence that shows that God exists? The Bible? Words on a page to me. Stephen King's "The Tommyknockers" might as well be evidence of aliens and spaceships if the Bible is evidence of God existing.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't even think YOU know what you're babbling about, at this junction.

Actually I do get it. It may not be worded the best, now looking back at it! :lol: But I think you get the main point. You can't make it an absolute truth that God does not exist. As such, God cannot be "proven not to exist" precisely because any being which is capable of being shown to be non-existent is, by definition, not God.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

What?

I didn't comprehend half of that, but what is the evidence that shows that God exists? The Bible? Words on a page to me. Stephen King's "The Tommyknockers" might as well be evidence of aliens and spaceships if the Bible is evidence of God existing.

Can you really prove that something doesn't exist? if the idea of God is present, then he does exist.... aka metaphysics.

[sparky]

Can you really prove that something doesn't exist? if the idea of God is present, then he does exist.... aka metaphysics.

The idea of me having sex tonight exists.

WHERE THE HELL IS MY ORGASM !

On edit, I must say that the whole idea of Christian faith is brilliant. The main tenet is faith. You must believe in something for which there is no proof. It immediately renders useless any argument about veracity. It is is genius. It is beginning, middle, and end. No argument. No proof - tough cookies. Proof isn't needed if you believe. It is utterly epic in how intelligent it was set up. Someone had their thinking cap on when they designed it, that's for sure.

[dissention]

if the idea of God is present, then he does exist....

Just like the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and magical Leprechauns, eh? :laugh:

[LongBlackScarf]

Actually I do get it. It may not be worded the best, now looking back at it! :lol: But I think you get the main point.

I get very few of your "points." But I think most of your points could be hidden under a hat such as this one ------> :woohoo: An extremely good fit, if you ask me.

[dissention]

WHERE THE HELL IS MY ORGASM !

Give me another minute, goddammit.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Just like the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and magical Leprechauns, eh? :laugh:

Yes, everything imaginable exists, because what is understood (or imagined) exists in the understanding (or imagination). So a unicorn exists so far as it exists in your understanding.

Here are some points elaberating. These are not meant to be "sound" arguments as to why God exists, but rather the basics of deep philosophical questions that has its beginning in the arguments put forward by Parmenidies. (Yes, I'm a religion dork sometimes)

Another way to think about it is like this:

1.) Every object of thought is an object (ie for every thought there is a "something" you thought about.)
2.) Every object exists in some degree
2a.) Suppose that not every object exists in some degree
2b.) Then there is some object which does not exist in any degree
2c.) But an object not existing in any degree is not an object
2d.) Therefore every object exists in some degree
3.) Therefore, every object of thought exists in some degree

[GypsySorcerer]

Not to stray off subject, Brandon, but Ann needs a major root touch-up in that pic in your sig. :laugh:

[LongBlackScarf]

Yes, everything imaginable exists, because what is understood (or imagined) exists in the understanding (or imagination). So a unicorn exists so far as it exists in your understanding.



http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif


Yep! I see 'em!! :nod:

[dissention]

Not to stray off subject, Brandon, but Ann needs a major root touch-up in that pic in your sig. :laugh:

She thinks she's Heather Locklear and can get away with roots.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Not to stray off subject, Brandon, but Ann needs a major root touch-up in that pic in your sig. :laugh:

Haha, now that you mention it! But that pic isn't too current so...her roots are taken care of!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif


Yep! I see 'em!! :nod:

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that unicorns REALLY DO EXIST. My apologies, I guess it was idiotic of me to assume that most anyone here was capable of philosophical pondering.

[LongBlackScarf]

She thinks she's Heather Locklear and can get away with roots.

Alex Haley doesn't have roots as bad as that. :eek:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

She thinks she's Heather Locklear and can get away with roots.

Let's do a new version with Condi...

oh wait, you weren't talking about the mini-series were you :confused:

[GypsySorcerer]

She thinks she's Heather Locklear and can get away with roots.
That's one trend I'm glad went away. :laugh: Though Locklear would look lovely in a potato sack. :wavey:

[sparky]

Though Locklear would look lovely in a potato sack. :wavey:

Now that her eye job finally relaxed, yeah.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I get very few of your "points."

Because apparently you have trouble with the philosophical thought. :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/tiere/animal-smiley-040.gif


Yep! I see 'em!! :nod:

Well, if W can see WMD when there are none :shrug: :laugh: :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

What?

I didn't comprehend half of that, but what is the evidence that shows that God exists? The Bible? Words on a page to me. Stephen King's "The Tommyknockers" might as well be evidence of aliens and spaceships if the Bible is evidence of God existing.

But the question is why do you seem to care if someone else wants to have Faith in God, etc. I am not talking about the Pat Robertson/George Bush crowd who use that Faith for bad things. I am talking about the millions of peaceful and faithful Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. out there who practice their faith without shoving it down peoples' throats. If you are not taking about those people, nevermind :laugh:

[Sapphire Girl]

Jesus never came back! He's been AWOL for 2000 years.
There is not ONE SINGLE SHRED of evidence that God, nor Jesus, existed. Not ONE.
How can Jesus have never come back when you said he never existed?

[GateandGarden]

How can Jesus have never come back when you said he never existed?Wow, I'm impressed because normally your posts don't have a glimmer of logic. I guess it's just so easy to see that mistake when others make it.

[Sapphire Girl]

Just like the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and magical Leprechauns, eh? :laugh:
These entities no longer exist. Michael Moore ate 'em all. Turns out he insists on hor d'oeuvres to precede his breakfast.

[GateandGarden]

These entities no longer exist. Michael Moore ate 'em all. Turns out he insists on hor d'oeuvres to precede his breakfast.Thanks for proving my delightfully rude point. :laugh:

[LongBlackScarf]

How can Jesus have never come back when you said he never existed?

I said there is no EVIDENCE that he existed. No physical proof. And since he never "came back" here to earth, it appears he did not exist. As an atheist, I state emphatically he never existed in the form claimed by Christians. There may have indeed been a wonderful dude named Jesus who spent a lot of time in his bathrobe drinking homemade hooch, and getting people to like one another, but he surely was not the result of sexual relations between a ghost, and a 14 year old virgin. I am not so silly to believe that stuff. If it gives other people some sort of "comfort" then fine.

[strandinthewind]

These entities no longer exist. Michael Moore ate 'em all. Turns out he insists on hor d'oeuvres to precede his breakfast.

I have this vision of Jabba the Hut eating the pleading live creature in the Empire Strike Back :laugh: :laugh:

[irishgrl]

There is not ONE SINGLE SHRED of evidence that God, nor Jesus, existed. Not ONE.
He spent time with the Essenes, and the mystics in India, he traveled with his Uncle Joseph of Aramithea (sp?) and just who do you suppose the Romans crucified alongside Barrabas? Pontias Pilate certainly had to deal with him...
Im not sure why you say he never existed? There are plenty of ancient manuscripts that document his existence, including letters (http://ministries.tliquest.net/theology/apocryphas/nt/herpilat.htm) from Pilate to Herod, and back again. Do you suppose both of those worthies made him up?

You have to remember that the Jewish tradition (the tradition Jesus came from) was ORAL, not written.

If you are interested in more ancient manuscripts links, let me know...

[irishgrl]

Jason, LOVE LOVE LOVE the new LOTR sig phrases!

[strandinthewind]

Jason, LOVE LOVE LOVE the new LOTR sig phrases!

They seemed appropriate of late ;)

[The Tower]

They seemed appropriate of late ;)
Damn right, babe.

[strandinthewind]

Damn right, babe.


BTW - did you know that "lathspell" means bad news as opposed to "gospel" - which means good news. It is a little more complicated than that - but that is the drift of it and a demonstration of Tolkien's genius :nod:

[irishgrl]

BTW - did you know that "lathspell" means bad news as opposed to "gospel" - which means good news. It is a little more complicated than that - but that is the drift of it and a demonstration of Tolkien's genius :nod:
lathspell=bad news? in what language? just curious...

[strandinthewind]

lathspell=bad news? in what language? just curious...


I believe it is Old English - but Tolkien borrowed from many.


I went to a lecture on Tolkien a couple of weeks ago and they went into that - it makes sense because he names Gandalf in an effort to control Gandalf and conjure the image in the ones he is still controlling - then he says "ill news" which is repeating "lathspell."

Tolkien was a genius - I love his stuff.

[irishgrl]

I believe it is Old English - but Tolkien borrowed from many.


I went to a lecture on Tolkien a couple of weeks ago and they went into that - it makes sense because he names Gandalf in an effort to control Gandalf and conjure the image in the ones he is still controlling - then he says "ill news" which is repeating "lathspell."

Tolkien was a genius - I love his stuff.
names do have power, and apparently Grima knows THAT much...
Tolkien is the Master, often copied, never duplicated.

(having said that, I do enjoy the Summer Tree Trilogy by Guy Gavriel Kay)

btw: can anyone tell me why Eowyn calls Grima "Snick"??

[The Tower]

BTW - did you know that "lathspell" means bad news as opposed to "gospel" - which means good news. It is a little more complicated than that - but that is the drift of it and a demonstration of Tolkien's genius :nod:
Don't even get me started, babe.

If this were another time, in a parallel universe- you and I would be sitting with doggies in front of the big screen tee-vee oooing and ahhing over the ten hours of LOTR footage with a roaring fire and a magnum of champagne the weekend before flying off to the U.K. for a Bentley road trip through Cornwall, the Cotswolds, Bath, Cardiff and on up the Welsh coast to Caernarfon and Conwy, whilst staying in the Royal Suite at the Lake Vynwy Hotel.

[strandinthewind]

names do have power, and apparently Grima knows THAT much...
Tolkien is the Master, often copied, never duplicated.

(having said that, I do enjoy the Summer Tree Trilogy by Guy Gavriel Kay)


I have never read those. I will have to check it out.

[irishgrl]

Don't even get me started, babe.

If this were another time, in a parallel universe- you and I would be sitting with doggies in front of the big screen tee-vee oooing and ahhing over the ten hours of LOTR footage with a roaring fire and a magnum of champagne the weekend before flying off to the U.K. for a Bentley road trip through Cornwall, the Cotswolds, Bath, Cardiff and on up the Welsh coast to Caernarfon and Conwy, whilst staying in the Royal Suite at the Lake Vynwy Hotel.

HEY! count me in on that road trip! thats right up my celtic alley!

[strandinthewind]

Don't even get me started, babe.

If this were another time, in a parallel universe- you and I would be sitting with doggies in front of the big screen tee-vee oooing and ahhing over the ten hours of LOTR footage with a roaring fire and a magnum of champagne the weekend before flying off to the U.K. for a Bentley road trip through Cornwall, the Cotswolds, Bath, Cardiff and on up the Welsh coast to Caernarfon and Conwy, whilst staying in the Royal Suite at the Lake Vynwy Hotel.


Well, I have done the Bentley trip - but not with as good of company and certainly not staying there
:eek:

BTW - we would have to go en route to Cardiff (which is FAB BTW) to Tintern Abbey and, at night play Rhiannon on the Bösendorfer we brought in the van also carrying my 16 steamer trunks :cool:

Also, I wanna make love on a rock that was the throne room at Tintagel.

Oh Fortuna - you temptress of what is.

[irishgrl]

I have never read those. I will have to check it out.

In those books, the name for the Elves is "Lios Alfar" The Children of Light. I think that is sooooo beautiful...

oh, I wish I still had my copies...

[irishgrl]

Well, I have done the Bentley trip - but not with as good of company and certainly not staying there
:eek:

BTW - we would have to go en route to Cardiff (which is FAB BTW) to Tintern Abbey and, at night play Rhiannon on the Bösendorfer we brought in the van also carrying my 16 steamer trunks :cool:

Also, I wanna make love on a rock that was the throne room at Tintagel.

Oh Fortuna - you temptress of what is.

ok when you're done identifying with your inner celt, do you s'pose we could jog on over to the Emerald Isle, to the stone of Lia Fal? the crowning seat of all Irish Kings? They say the rock WAILED when Brian Boru was crowned High King over all the Island...I wish I would have known that man!

[strandinthewind]

ok when you're done identifying with your inner celt, do you s'pose we could jog on over to the Emerald Isle, to the stone of Lia Fal? the crowning seat of all Irish Kings? They say the rock WAILED when Brian Boru was crowned High King over all the Island...I wish I would have known that man!


I think I may hire a hot air ballon so we can go over from England that way :eek:

[strandinthewind]

In those books, the name for the Elves is "Lios Alfar" The Children of Light. I think that is sooooo beautiful...

oh, I wish I still had my copies...


My friend Anita Kay has them. I have been meaning to get them from her!!!!! We are going to the movies after Wynnee's dog show tommorow - so I will get her to bring them to me then.

[irishgrl]

I think I may hire a hot air ballon so we can go over from England that way :eek:

I know! I know! we can keep it afloat with the hot air from our political "discussions!" PERFECT! a true interactive experience! :D

[irishgrl]

My friend Anita Kay has them. I have been meaning to get them from her!!!!! We are going to the movies after Wynnee's dog show tommorow - so I will get her to bring them to me then.

ok. just keep the kleenex handy for certain parts.....

[The Tower]

BTW - we would have to go en route to Cardiff (which is FAB BTW) to Tintern Abbey and, at night play Rhiannon on the Bösendorfer we brought in the van also carrying my 16 steamer trunks :cool:
Personally, I'd prefer a duet of "The Highwayman".

Also, I wanna make love on a rock that was the throne room at Tintagel.
I'm Lancelot- you're Arthur.

Oh Fortuna - you temptress of what is.
Tell me about it.....



Lake Vyrnwy is absolutely gorgeous- and the hotel is luxury-o-rama.

The Lake Vyrnwy Hotel (http://www.lakevyrnwy.com/index.html)

[strandinthewind]

I know! I know! we can keep it afloat with the hot air from our political "discussions!" PERFECT! a true interactive experience! :D

Lord Child - it would become a space trip :laugh:

Actually, gove me a cocktail and a cig. and I will sing Irish hymns the whole way there - so I am unsure which is worse :laugh:

[irishgrl]

Personally, I'd prefer a duet of "The Highwayman".
I happen to like the Loreena McKinnit Version but Im sure you are referring to Stevie's version....

I'm Lancelot- you're Arthur. Is there a Gwnhyfar?

Have you heard of the Kylemore abbey in Ireland? here's the pic:
http://www.maion.com/photography/_photos/irla0733.jpg

and here's an awesome link (http://www.reggie.net/album.php?albid=1407) with photos

[strandinthewind]

Personally, I'd prefer a duet of "The Highwayman".

I can assure you I will be dressed for the part, prederably in Scottish wool with the two Scottie Princesses and your barkers close.

I'm Lancelot- you're Arthur.

Sounds good to me. Should we give Mary a whip :eek:

That hotel looks GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dissention]

Lake Vyrnwy is absolutely gorgeous- and the hotel is luxury-o-rama.

The Lake Vyrnwy Hotel (http://www.lakevyrnwy.com/index.html)

You call that "bedroom suite" luxury-o-rama? :shocked: I'd have to be blind to stay there and chances are I'd be able to smell the ****ty decor.

[The Tower]

I happen to like the Loreena McKinnit Version but Im sure you are referring to Stevie's version....
I'd actually prefer "Dante's Prayer"

"When the dark night seems endless....
Please remember me....."

That hotel looks GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is really unbelievably beautiful. Geoffrey and I have already decided that we're cashing out and moving to the UK in five to ten years to open our own pub/bed & breakfast thang. Good-bye ****hole jobs- hello gorgeous!!

[ryan8472]

You call that "bedroom suite" luxury-o-rama? :shocked: I'd have to be blind to stay there and chances are I'd be able to smell the ****ty decor.
I was going to comment on the room myself, but now that you've put it so eloquently, I'm gasping for air from laughing. :laugh: :xoxo:

[The Tower]

You call that "bedroom suite" luxury-o-rama? :shocked: I'd have to be blind to stay there and chances are I'd be able to smell the ****ty decor.
Meh- you're taste is all in your mouth... Have a little romance fer chrissakes! :xoxo: :xoxo: :blob2:

The hotel is an ancient castle. The Royal Suite is gorgeous. The lake is gorgeous. The scenery is gorgeous.

[amber]

I'd actually prefer "Dante's Prayer"

"When the dark night seems endless....
Please remember me....."


It is really unbelievably beautiful. Geoffrey and I have already decided that we're cashing out and moving to the UK in five to ten years to open our own pub/bed & breakfast thang. Good-bye ****hole jobs- hello gorgeous!!

Wow - I would think running a pub/bed & breakfast thing would be pretty ****ty and very hard. :shrug:

[dissention]

Meh- you're taste is all in your mouth... Have a little romance fer chrissakes! :xoxo: :xoxo: :blob2:

The hotel is an ancient castle. The Royal Suite is gorgeous. The lake is gorgeous. The scenery is gorgeous.

Get rid of the grandma depositories in the middle of the floor that they're trying to pass off as chairs and we can talk. I'd feel the need to knit a doily if I sat in one. And the Royal Doulton just offends me, no two ways about it.

:p

(I'm sure it's very nice, I'm only kidding you.)

[irishgrl]

I'd actually prefer "Dante's Prayer"

"When the dark night seems endless....
Please remember me....."


It is really unbelievably beautiful. Geoffrey and I have already decided that we're cashing out and moving to the UK in five to ten years to open our own pub/bed & breakfast thang. Good-bye ****hole jobs- hello gorgeous!!

I like Skellig too......can you imagine living such an austere life in a rock dwelling at the tip of the atlantic sea? very hardy those monks...and then to produce such works of art as the Book of Kells........geez......

[strandinthewind]

. . . It is really unbelievably beautiful. Geoffrey and I have already decided that we're cashing out and moving to the UK in five to ten years to open our own pub/bed & breakfast thang. Good-bye ****hole jobs- hello gorgeous!!


Child - I may join y'all. I am soooooo over my little lawyer gig.

I will, however, need the following:

- Black Prince Charlie
Coatee and Vest
- Dress Sporran and Chainstrap
- Tartan Flashes and Garters
- Stone Top Sgian Dubh
- Kilt Pin
- Hose
- Ghillie Shoes

for formal occasions :cool:

[irishgrl]

Wow - I would think running a pub/bed & breakfast thing would be pretty ****ty and very hard. :shrug:
are you KIDDING? Pubs are happening places, especially in Ireland! Man oh Man if I ever get some $$$$$$$$ you know where Im going....and staying too!

[strandinthewind]

Get rid of the grandma depositories in the middle of the floor that they're trying to pass off as chairs and we can talk. I'd feel the need to knit a doily if I sat in one. And the Royal Doulton just offends me, no two ways about it.

:p

(I'm sure it's very nice, I'm only kidding you.)

LOL - I am SURE it also has cabbage rose chintz - which undoubtably would give you hives, which will require a cream of lavendar, hemlock, and dandelion administered at night naked while dancing to Beltane rights around a fire and beneath the moon.

[irishgrl]

Stone Top Sgian Dubh
WHAT???? no antler? for SHAME! :eek:

[strandinthewind]

WHAT???? no antler? for SHAME! :eek:


LOL - well, I was trying to be PC :laugh: But, if its a protuberance you want, I am sure I could manage :laugh:

[dissention]

LOL - I am SURE it also has cabbage rose chintz - which undoubtably would give you hives, which will require a cream of lavendar, hemlock, and dandelion administered at night naked while dancing to Beltane rights around a fire and beneath the moon.

Good christ. Chintz. Is there anything more heinous? Add some toile and tatouage to the mix and you might as well prepare the body bag.

[strandinthewind]

Good christ. Chintz. Is there anything more heinous? Add some toile and tatouage to the mix and you might as well prepare the body bag.


It is in the countryside of the British Isles - what do want white gloss with an accent wall :laugh:

[irishgrl]

LOL - I am SURE it also has cabbage rose chintz - which undoubtably would give you hives, which will require a cream of lavendar, hemlock, and dandelion administered at night naked while dancing to Beltane rights around a fire and beneath the moon.
Ah Beltane.....now you're talking MY lingo......I wish I could go back in time...

[LongBlackScarf]

Good christ. Chintz. Is there anything more heinous?

Chenille. :p

[seeker007nmss]

LOL - I am SURE it also has cabbage rose chintz - which undoubtably would give you hives, which will require a cream of lavendar, hemlock, and dandelion administered at night naked while dancing to Beltane rights around a fire and beneath the moon.


Dancing naked? at night? You mean Skyclad? :shocked:

[dissention]

Chenille. :p

Meh, I have a black and white striped chenille throw on my sofa. It's for purely aesthetic purposes, though. :p

[irishgrl]

Dancing naked? at night? You mean Skyclad? :shocked:

thats what he means, under a full moon too! :D

[strandinthewind]

thats what he means, under a full moon too! :D

Well, there could be body paint and it could be sanguine :eek:

[irishgrl]

Well, there could be body paint and it could be sanguine :eek:
(thinks hes the Horned God now :lol: )

so, explain "sanguine" 1) cheerful/optimistic, or 2) reddish/ruddy/bloody

btw: pretty neat trick being invisible and still able to post you rascal! what you got to hide? :eek:

[strandinthewind]

(thinks hes the Horned God now :lol: )

Well, I know more than one vodooeine and the moon shows darker liquid so brilliantly :eek:

[irishgrl]

Well, I know more than one vodooeine and the moon shows darker liquid so brilliantly :eek:

vodooeine? female voodoo practitioner? not exactly the right sort of magic for the British Isles.....you need a druid my dear......
for your edification:
The Horned God is is the lord of life, death and the underworld. And is the Sun to the Goddess' Moon. He alternates with the Goddess in ruling over the fertility cycle of birth, death and rebirth. He is born at the winter solstice, unites with the Goddess in marriage at Bealtaine, and dies at the summer solstice to bring fertility to the land as the Sacred King.

[strandinthewind]

vodooeine? female voodoo practitioner? not exactly the right sort of magic for the British Isles.....you need a druid my dear......

I know :cool:

But, the blood sacrifices are pretty much universally applied in religion, including Beltane and progeny. Also, the most common example today is "the Blood Christ" :shrug:

[irishgrl]

more pics of Cernunnos:
http://www.mythinglinks.org/Tempest~HornedGod~r40.jpg http://www.witchcraft.org/gallery/Elen_Hawke_Tarot/The-Horned-God.jpg
I read that Arthur underwent the Ceremony of the Horned God uniting with the Goddess (actually it was in the Mists of Avalon, a good read if you have the time)

[strandinthewind]

more pics of Cernunnos:
http://www.mythinglinks.org/Tempest~HornedGod~r40.jpg http://www.witchcraft.org/gallery/Elen_Hawke_Tarot/The-Horned-God.jpg
I read that Arthur underwent the Ceremony of the Horned God uniting with the Goddess (actually it was in the Mists of Avalon, a good read if you have the time)

Fabulous pics!!!!!!!!!

Mists of Avalon is one of my favorite things ever. In fact, when I was in Alaska in Aug. and we were surrounded by a passage of heavily misted cliffs, islands, etc. - I went in my hooded cloak to the bow by myself and did Viviane's hand motions to part the mist. It did not work, but three people knew what I was doing and we had a big discussion about it :eek:


Also, my fav. was when in the aftermath of a battle, trumpets sound faded in the the distance as they pursue the enemy is pursued - then Gorlois sort of leans on his axe and his second in command named RHIANNON says something about it was as Uther Pendragon foretold - sighes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, the tv movie was pretty good, though it could have been better. But, that Beltane fesitival - SHEEBUS - and when Arthur asks Lancelot to join him and Gwenwyfar in bed :eek: Joan Allen also played Morgause to perfection.

[irishgrl]

Fabulous pics!!!!!!!!!

Mists of Avalon is one of my favorite things ever. In fact, when I was in Alaska in Aug. and we were surrounded by a passage of heavily misted cliffs, islands, etc. - I went in my hooded cloak to the bow by myself and did Viviane's hand motions to part the mist. It did not work, but three people knew what I was doing and we had a big discussion about it :eek:


Also, my fav. was when in the aftermath of a battle, trumpets sound faded in the the distance as they pursue the enemy is pursued - then Gorlois sort of leans on his axe and his second in command named RHIANNON says something about it was as Uther Pendragon foretold - sighes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, the tv movie was pretty good, though it could have been better. But, that Beltane fesitival - SHEEBUS - and when Arthur asks Lancelot to join him and Gwenwyfar in bed :eek: Joan Allen also played Morgause to perfection.


I LOVED the book, and the movie was well done (Im beginning to think we have a LOT in common!) have you ever read the Butterfly in Amber series by Diana Gabaldon? You're in for a treat if you do, they are addicting.
Also a thin little tome by the name of Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock.
Awesome story. Awesome.

[dissention]

Finally, the tv movie was pretty good, though it could have been better. But, that Beltane fesitival - SHEEBUS - and when Arthur asks Lancelot to join him and Gwenwyfar in bed :eek: Joan Allen also played Morgause to perfection.

The one with the lovely Michael Vartan and the marvelous Anjelica Huston? I kinda liked it, which was weird because I usually don't like that kind of stuff.

[strandinthewind]

I LOVED the book, and the movie was well done (Im beginning to think we have a LOT in common!) have you ever read the Butterfly in Amber series by Diana Gabaldon? You're in for a treat if you do, they are addicting.
Also a thin little tome by the name of Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock.
Awesome story. Awesome.


No, I will check them out - thanks!

I recently just trudged through The Silmarillion yet again. You discover something new each time :laugh:

I soooooo want to see the light of the Valar in the jewels made by Feanor :nod:

[strandinthewind]

The one with the lovely Michael Vartan and the marvelous Anjelica Huston? I kinda liked it, which was weird because I usually don't like that kind of stuff.

That very one :cool:

It was a mostly faithful adaptation of the book(s).

Plus, it was a little hard to miss with Mt. Rushmore for a cast :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Here we go again - Again, I have no problem with creationism and other religious theories being mentioned perhaps in an elective class on comparative religion - but taught as a scientific theory is incorrect. Plus, any doubts as to the real and clearly religious agenda here can be immediately demonstrated by the comments of the board which were clearly to use this ruse to establish Christianity as the official religion of this county. I mean other religions have creation stories - if the free exchange of ideas is so important as alleged, why are they not chomping at the bit to include those :shrug:

'Intelligent design' debate back in court

Evolution litigation dates back to 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) -- "Intelligent design" is a religious theory that was inserted in a school district's curriculum with no concern for whether it had scientific underpinnings, a lawyer told a federal judge Monday as a landmark trial got under way.

"They did everything you would do if you wanted to incorporate a religious point of view in science class and cared nothing about its scientific validity," said Eric Rothschild, an attorney representing eight families who are challenging the decision of the Dover Area School District.

But in his opening statement, the school district's attorney defended Dover's policy of requiring ninth-grade students to hear a brief statement about intelligent design before biology classes on evolution.

"This case is about free inquiry in education, not about a religious agenda," argued Patrick Gillen of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan. "Dover's modest curriculum change embodies the essence of liberal education." The center, which lobbies for what it sees as the religious freedom of Christians, is defending the school district.

Eighty years after the Scopes Monkey Trial, the opening of the trial in federal court marked the latest legal chapter in the debate over the teaching of evolution in public school.

The eight families argue that the district policy violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

About 75 spectators crowded the courtroom of U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III for the start of the non-jury trial. But the scene outside the courthouse was business as usual except for a lone woman reading the Bible.

Arguing that intelligent design is a religious theory, not science, Rothschild said he would show that the language in the school district's own policy made clear its religious intent.

Dover is believed to be the first school system in the nation to require students be exposed to the intelligent design concept, under a policy adopted by a 6-3 vote in October 2004.

It requires teachers to read a statement that says intelligent design differs from Darwin's view and refers students to an intelligent-design textbook, "Of Pandas and People," for more information.

Intelligent design, a concept some scholars have advanced over the past 15 years, holds that Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms. It implies that life on Earth was the product of an unidentified intelligent force.

Critics say intelligent design is merely creationism -- a literal reading of the Bible's story of creation -- camouflaged in scientific language, and it does not belong in a science curriculum.

Brown University professor Kenneth Miller, the first witness called by the plaintiffs, said pieces of the theory of evolution are subject to debate, such as where gender comes from, but told the court: "There is no controversy within science over the core proposition of evolutionary theory."

On the other hand, he said, "Intelligent design is not a testable theory in any sense and as such it is not accepted by the scientific community."

Miller also challenged the accuracy of "Of Pandas and People" and said it almost entirely omits any discussion of what causes extinction. If nearly all original species are extinct, he said, the intelligent design creator was not very intelligent.

The history of evolution litigation dates back to the famous 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, in which Tennessee biology teacher John T. Scopes was fined $100 for violating a state law that forbade teaching evolution. The Tennessee Supreme Court reversed his conviction on the narrow ground that only a jury trial could impose a fine exceeding $50, and the law was repealed in 1967.

In 1968, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned an Arkansas state law banning the teaching of evolution. And in 1987, it ruled that states may not require public schools to balance evolution lessons by teaching creationism.

The clash over intelligent-design is evident far beyond this rural district of about 3,500 students 20 miles south of Harrisburg. President Bush has weighed in, saying schools should present both concepts when teaching about the origins of life.

In August, the Kansas Board of Education gave preliminary approval to science standards that allow intelligent design-style alternatives to be discussed alongside evolution.

Richard Thompson, the Thomas More center's president and chief counsel, said Dover's policy takes a modest approach.

"All the Dover school board did was allow students to get a glimpse of a controversy that is really boiling over in the scientific community," Thompson said.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/26/evolution.debate.ap/index.html

[GateandGarden]

Here we go again - Again, I have no problem with creationism and other religious theories being mentioned perhaps in an elective class on comparative religion - but taught as a scientific theory is incorrect. Wow, see, that sentence says it all. Why is that so difficult for people to understand? :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Wow, see, that sentence says it all. Why is that so difficult for people to understand? :shrug:

Because their ministers tell them God will smite them with horrible things if they do not insist the American Govt. officially recognize Christianity as the one true religion of this country.

There are so many examples of this - like putting a several ton granite monument of a trumped up version of the 10 Commandments in the middle of the night in the rotunda in the entrance of the AL courthouse - paying for it with taxpayers money - saying it is the law - and then acting like you are being persectued by evil non-believers who want to do away with God in all aspects of private life when you are told to remove it. No one was persecuting that judge. He is free to believe whatever he wants. All he was told was he cannot put that tablet in the courthouse with taxpayers money and say it is the law. There is a huge difference between the two events. Yet, most people cannot make the distinction and they will continue to think any attempt to sep. church and state is an attack on their personal ability to believe in God.

[SuzeQuze]

Because their ministers tell them God will smite them with horrible things if they do not insist the American Govt. officially recognize Christianity as the one true religion of this country.

There are so many examples of this - like putting a several ton granite monument of a trumped up version of the 10 Commandments in the middle of the night in the rotunda in the entrance of the AL courthouse - paying for it with taxpayers money - saying it is the law - and then acting like you are being persectued by evil non-believers who want to do away with God in all aspects of private life when you are told to remove it. No one was persecuting that judge. He is free to believe whatever he wants. All he was told was he cannot put that tablet in the courthouse with taxpayers money and say it is the law. There is a huge difference between the two events. Yet, most people cannot make the distinction and they will continue to think any attempt to sep. church and state is an attack on their personal ability to believe in God.

Because secular liberals are at war with Christianity and trying to eradicate it from everything. :rolleyes: Its the Christians that are persecuted, they are the victims in this country. :confused:

They get it so twisted!

[strandinthewind]

Because secular liberals are at war with Christianity and trying to eradicate it from everything. :rolleyes: Its the Christians that are persecuted, they are the victims in this country. :confused:

They get it so twisted!

I know - I mean why is it so important to have the govt. validate your religious beliefs. What purpose does it serve? I can see none other than to whip the people into believing which means more $$$$$.

[dissention]

I know - I mean why is it so important to have the govt. validate your religious beliefs. What purpose does it serve?

Because it makes them feel more strongly that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

[SuzeQuze]

Because it makes them feel more strongly that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

They're right and they're better.