Liar, Liar, Now You're Fired

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Liar, Liar, Now You're Fired
by Ann Coulter
January 12, 2005

If CNN doesn't hire them, Dan Rather and his producers can always get a job teaching at the Columbia School of Journalism. The Columbia Journalism Review recently defended the CBS report on George Bush using forged National Guard documents with the Tawana Brawley excuse: The documents might be "fake but accurate."

Dan Rather and his crack investigative producer Mary Mapes are still not admitting the documents were fakes. Of course, Dan Rather is still not admitting Kerry lost the election or that a woman named Juanita Broaddrick credibly accused Bill Clinton of rape.

Responding to Bill O'Reilly's question in a May 15, 2001, interview on "The O'Reilly Factor" about why CBS News had mentioned crack-pot rumors of George Bush's drug use on air seven times, but the name "Juanita Broaddrick" had never crossed Dan Rather's lips (and was only mentioned twice on all of CBS News), Rather replied: "Juanita Broaddrick, to be perfectly honest, I don't remember all the details of Juanita Broaddrick. But I will say that — and you can castigate me if you like. When the charge has something to do with somebody's private sex life, I would prefer not to run any of it."

If only the press had extended that same courtesy to Mike Tyson! Rape has as much to do with "somebody's private sex life" as Bush's National Guard service does.

Admittedly, Juanita Broaddrick's charge against Clinton — that Bill Clinton raped her so brutally that her clothing was torn and her lip was swollen and bleeding, hence his parting words of "you'd better put some ice on that" — was not a story on the order of Augusta National Golf Course's exclusion of women members. But, unlike the Bush drug-use charge, which remains unsupported to this day, Broaddrick's allegations had been fully corroborated by NBC News — which then refused to air Lisa Myers' report until after Clinton's acquittal in the Senate.

Fortunately for Ms. Mapes, Rather also described Bill Clinton as "honest," explaining to O'Reilly, "I think you can be an honest person and lie about any number of things." This must have come as great comfort to Mapes, as she based an entire story about Bush's outrageous behavior in the National Guard on one Lt. Col. Bill Burkett.

Among the issues that might have raised questions about relying on Burkett as your source before accusing a sitting president of having disobeyed direct military orders are:

— Burkett had a long-standing grudge against the National Guard for failing to pay for his medical treatment for a rare tropical disease he claims he contracted during Guard service in Panama.

— He blamed Bush, who was governor at the time, for the Guard's denial of medical benefits because, as everyone knows, the Texas governor's main job is processing medical claims from former National Guard members.

— After leaving the Guard, Burkett suffered a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for depression.

— At the meeting where he was supposed to give Mapes the National Guard documents, Burkett brought "two binders full of depositions and other documents that were apparently from his litigation with the National Guard over health benefits" — apparently he forgot the two shoeboxes full of UFO photos he'd collected over the years.

— He had compared Bush to Hitler — which admittedly could have been just his way of establishing his bona fides to Democrats.

— He had told a number of stories over the years about Bush's National Guard service, all of which had collapsed under conflicting evidence and even his own contradictory accounts — which is to say the stories were both made up and inaccurate.

— In exchange for the National Guard documents, Burkett demanded money, "relocation assistance" if the story put him or his family in danger (perhaps ocean-front property for a quick getaway) and direct contact with the Kerry campaign.

Even before the story aired, Burkett's description of his own source for the documents kept changing. He said he received the documents anonymously in the mail. He said he was given the documents by someone who would "know what to do with (the documents) better than" he would. He said his source was Chief Warrant Officer George Conn — amid copious warnings that CBS "should not call Chief Warrant Officer Conn because he would deny it" and further that "Conn was on active duty and could not be reached at his Dallas home."

Burkett needn't have worried about crack investigator Mary Mapes getting in touch with his alleged source. Even though a three-second search on Google would have revealed that (1) Burkett was crazy, and (2) he had tried to use Conn as a source before and Conn had vehemently denied Burkett's claims, Mapes told the investigating committee "she did not consider Chief Warrant Officer Conn's denial to be reliable."

It seems Burkett had told Mapes that "Conn was still in the military and that his wife threatened to leave him if he spoke out against President Bush." That was good enough for Mapes. She concluded that Conn — the only person who could have corroborated Burkett's story — was not to be trusted. Instead, Mapes placed all her faith in the disgruntled, paranoid nut with a vendetta against Bush, an extensive psychiatric history and an ever-growing enemies list. I'm referring to Bill Burkett here, not Dan Rather.

Finally, Burkett claimed a woman named Lucy Ramirez had passed the documents to him at a livestock show in Houston. It is believed that this account marks the exact day that Burkett's lithium prescription ran out. Despite the fact that no one at CBS was able to locate Ramirez, CBS stuck to the story.

This isn't a lack of "rigor" in fact-checking, as the CBS report suggests. It's a total absence of fact-checking. CBS found somebody who told the story they wanted told — and they ran with it, wholly disregarding the facts.

Curiously, though Mapes trusted Burkett implicitly, she was very careful not to reveal his name to anyone at CBS, probably because she would have been laughed out of the room.

Instead, Mapes described Burkett in the abstract as: "solid," "without bias," "credible," "a Texas Republican of a different chromosome," a "John McCain supporter," "reliable" and "a maverick" — leaving out only "Burkett is convinced he can communicate with caterpillars" and "his best friend is a coffee table." His name was not important. It's not as if he was the sole source for a highly damaging story about the president eight weeks before the election or anything. Oh wait ...

At a meeting with CBS lawyers the day the story would air, Mapes "did not reveal the source's name or anything negative about the source," but "expressed 'enormous confidence' in her source's reliability and said that he was solid with no bias or credibility issues." She described Burkett as a "moralistic stickler." The subject of UFOs simply never came up.

Mapes trusted Burkett on the basis of the following:

— "Mapes told the panel that she spoke to a mainstream media reporter, who had known Lt. Col. Burkett since 2001, and she stated that he viewed Lt. Col. Burkett as reliable." At least it wasn't one of those unreliable bloggers throwing anything up on the Net and ruining reputations!

— "Mapes told the panel that she informed the Burketts that she was worried the documents might be a 'political dirty trick.' Mapes said that the Burketts appeared 'genuinely shocked' at the suggestion and this reaction gave her comfort." (You could tell they were really shocked because they had the same look on their faces that Condi Rice had when Richard Clarke first told her about al-Qaida.)

— Mapes really hated George Bush and would do anything to make him lose the election.

Actually, Mapes did not put her last reason in writing, which created a real mystery for the CBS investigating committee. Proving once again how useless "moderate Republicans" are, The CBS Report — co-authored by moderate Republican Dick Thornburgh — found no evidence of political bias at CBS.

If Fox News had come out with a defamatory story about Kerry based on forged documents, liberals would be demanding we cut power to the place. (Fortunately, the real documents on Kerry were enough to do the trick). But the outside investigators hired by CBS could find no political agenda at CBS.

By contrast, the report did not hesitate to accuse the bloggers who exposed the truth about the documents of having "a conservative agenda." As with liberal attacks on Fox's "fair and balanced" motto, it is now simply taken for granted that "conservative bias" means "the truth."

thanks to anncoulter.org

[dissention]

The Columbia Journalism Review recently defended the CBS report on George Bush using forged National Guard documents with the Tawana Brawley excuse: The documents might be "fake but accurate."


I doubt that you could even explain who Tawana Brawley is, dear. Even if your life depended on it.

[ryan8472]

I doubt that you could even explain who Tawana Brawley is, dear. Even if your life depended on it.
Just for haha's, I visited the AnnCoulter.org message board. What a horrible place! Is that where you were banned from, Diss? :laugh:

[dissention]

Just for haha's, I visited the AnnCoulter.org message board. What a horrible place! Is that where you were banned from, Diss? :laugh:

Ah, you mean back in the day when my username was AnnTheManStuffsHerBra? :laugh:

No, if I remember correctly, it was a fan message baord. Scary, eh? The fact that that wench has fans? :shocked:

[DrummerDeanna]

I'm wondering if the new Ledgie Troll has somehow wandered over here from one of those boards....:shrug:

[ryan8472]

Ah, you mean back in the day when my username was AnnTheManStuffsHerBra? :laugh:

No, if I remember correctly, it was a fan message baord. Scary, eh? The fact that that wench has fans? :shocked:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

omg, I just literally laughed out loud for a minute straight.

+100000 for that one Dissy. :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMFG...AnnTheManStuffsHerBra! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I doubt that you could even explain who Tawana Brawley is, dear. Even if your life depended on it.

to whom are you referring...me or AC?

I believe that she was the African American teenager in the 80's who accused white police officers of rape and racial abuse.

This is Ann's article not mine. I never have claimed to be THE smartest political person in the world!

Like you, you are a very informed person...and you have proved that. It dosen't make you RIGHT on your views...but not the less you do know somewhat what you are talking about.

Im just an amateur who has an opinion that I ususally share with Ms. Coulter.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'm wondering if the new Ledgie Troll has somehow wandered over here from one of those boards....:shrug:

No...I am an honest Fleetwood Mac fan! lol

I just got started when reading some very liberal post here...so I felt the need to say something...why keep my mouth shut.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Im just an amateur who has an opinion that I ususally share with Ms. Coulter.


Amateur and Coulter in the same sentence? That fits.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

omg, I just literally laughed out loud for a minute straight.

+100000 for that one Dissy. :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMFG...AnnTheManStuffsHerBra! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

it was amusing but not THAT funny! :shrug: :)

[dissention]

Im just an amateur who has an opinion that I ususally share with Ms. Coulter.

Therein lies the problem. Do your own research and find your own facts, then form your opinions. You cannot have opinions on things you know next to nothing about. Then read op-ed **** like Coultergeist and you'll see what a liar she is.

[ryan8472]

it was amusing but not THAT funny! :shrug: :)
I really did laugh out loud for that long though. That was good.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Amateur and Coulter in the same sentence? That fits.

She isn't an amateur...a college graduate with years of experience in the writing/politcal field...

Now college drop-out Michael Moore...thats an amateur.

[dissention]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

omg, I just literally laughed out loud for a minute straight.

+100000 for that one Dissy. :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMFG...AnnTheManStuffsHerBra! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:laugh:

They were very shocked that I would even dare to bring up Ann's sex change operation.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Therein lies the problem. Do your own research and find your own facts, then form your opinions. You cannot have opinions on things you know next to nothing about. Then read op-ed **** like Coultergeist and you'll see what a liar she is.

I am an amateur...but that dosent mean one who checks footnotes (endnotes whatever you want to call them). Im not an idiot...I do do MY own research as well. It has been my experience that Liberals are liars and whiners. I honestly try to stay informed on things political. I read some liberal columns and other conservative columns...I know what I believe...I just haven't mastered discussing politics yet :cool:

[dissention]

She isn't an amateur...a college graduate with years of experience in the writing/politcal field...

Now college drop-out Michael Moore...thats an amateur.

:lol:

Yeah, and which one is more successful? Michael Moore. ;)

And she is an amateur. She got fired from MSNBC because of it. Only an amateur tells a Vietnam veteran with one arm and one leg that it's because of people like them that we lost the Vietnam war. If you like sick pigs, "she's" your gal.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:laugh:

They were very shocked that I would even dare to bring up Ann's sex change operation.

would that be like your sex change operation?

do tell...all the details.

[DrummerDeanna]

She isn't an amateur...a college graduate with years of experience in the writing/politcal field...

Now college drop-out Michael Moore...thats an amateur.

From experience - a college degree means nothing - it's a piece of paper....she's just a big an idiot for having one as she would be without one...

[SuzeQuze]

From experience - a college degree means nothing - it's a piece of paper....she's just a big an idiot for having one as she would be without one...

I agree. Bill Gates dropped out of college. :shrug: He's some things, dumb isn't one of them.

[DrummerDeanna]

would that be like your sex change operation?

do tell...all the details.

:rolleyes: Looks like your buttons are being pushed now eh? What a grade school comeback that was....

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:lol:

Yeah, and which one is more successful? Michael Moore. ;)

And she is an amateur. She got fired from MSNBC because of it. Only an amateur tells a Vietnam veteran with one arm and one leg that it's because of people like them that we lost the Vietnam war. If you like sick pigs, "she's" your gal.

Well, even though she frequently still appears on MSNBC...was on their last night to be quite honest. People afraid of THE TRUTH tend to fire the ones who dare speek the truth. What happened to a free country where we are allowed to express our opinions...You know the 1st ammendemnt that liberals fight so vigerously for...or does it only work when you get to express YOUR thoughts.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:rolleyes: Looks like your buttons are being pushed now eh? What a grade school comeback that was....

yea, it was pretty bad wasn't it. lol

[dissention]

From experience - a college degree means nothing - it's a piece of paper....she's just a big an idiot for having one as she would be without one...

Ann the Man agrees with you, Deanna. She trashes Jim Jeffords' degree from Yale in her book Treason. But then she goes on to praise Bush for "graduating from Yale and Harvard Business School" in the next chapter. :laugh:

[dissention]

would that be like your sex change operation?

do tell...all the details.

Ah, yes. Had the boys snipped off last week, but I still have yet to deal with my Adam's Apple and lack of breasts. Sort of like Miss Coulter. :cool:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I agree. Bill Gates dropped out of college. :shrug: He's some things, dumb isn't one of them.

Yes, but look at what Bill has done...actually accomplished great things. I happen to be using something that came from his brilliant mind...right now!

Michael Moore would still be a no-name if it weren't for his oscar speech which was deemed idiotic by even Ms. Barbra Streisand.

Now he suckers Americans into watching fictitious (one of his favorite words) films such as F9-11. Well I have to had it to him, he should at least get an oscar nomm. for best editing...considering he did a lot of that. ;)

[dissention]

Well, even though she frequently still appears on MSNBC...was on their last night to be quite honest. People afraid of THE TRUTH tend to fire the ones who dare speek the truth. What happened to a free country where we are allowed to express our opinions...You know the 1st ammendemnt that liberals fight so vigerously for...or does it only work when you get to express YOUR thoughts.

Yet again, you know nothing about even your hero. She was fired from MSNBC in the late nineties for her mouth and her presentation of lies as facts. It makes no difference whether she's a commentator on Scarborough Country or not. ;)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ah, yes. Had the boys snipped off last week, but I still have yet to deal with my Adam's Apple and lack of breasts. Sort of like Miss Coulter. :cool:

Come on now...she's a man because she does not have large boobs like...Micahel Moore...he has to be at least a D cup.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Ah, yes. Had the boys snipped off last week, but I still have yet to deal with my Adam's Apple and lack of breasts. Sort of like Miss Coulter. :cool:


You'd be a great Coulter for Halloween....with pie in the face and all.

[dissention]

Yes, but look at what Bill has done...actually accomplished great things. I happen to be using something that came from his brilliant mind...right now!

Michael Moore would still be a no-name if it weren't for his oscar speech which was deemed idiotic by even Ms. Barbra Streisand.

Now he suckers Americans into watching fictitious (one of his favorite words) films such as F9-11. Well I have to had it to him, he should at least get an oscar nomm. for best editing...considering he did a lot of that. ;)

Care to point out any lies or discrepancies in Fahrenheit 9/11? I bet you can't. ;)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yet again, you know nothing about even your hero. She was fired from MSNBC in the late nineties for her mouth and her presentation of lies as facts. It makes no difference whether she's a commentator on Scarborough Country or not. ;)

I know exactly their pathetic reasoning for fireing her. But my point was, if she had been a liberal attaking anyone with her "mouth" and still fired after that...liberals across the US would be in an uproar because of the violation of her freedom of speech.

[dissention]

Come on now...she's a man because she does not have large boobs like...Micahel Moore...he has to be at least a D cup.

No, she's a man because she has an Adam's Apple, pebbles for breasts, and a pair of low-hangers.

[dissention]

I know exactly their pathetic reasoning for fireing her. But my point was, if she had been a liberal attaking anyone with her "mouth" and still fired after that...liberals across the US would be in an uproar because of the violation of her freedom of speech.

Good, post their reasoning then. ;) I bet you can't. Actually, I bet you didn't even know she had a show on MSNBC years ago until I told you.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Care to point out any lies or discrepancies in Fahrenheit 9/11? I bet you can't. ;)

Well to be honest I haven't watch F9-11. But I have read "Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9-11" by Dave Kopel and found it quite interesting.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Good, post their reasoning then. ;) I bet you can't. Actually, I bet you didn't even know she had a show on MSNBC years ago until I told you.

always trying to undermind.

[dissention]

Well to be honest I haven't watch F9-11.

Then you're not qualified to discuss it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No, she's a man because she has an Adam's Apple, pebbles for breasts, and a pair of low-hangers.

note...Women have adam's apples to...they are just not USUALLY visable...but hers is. To think, God makes us all different...strange huh?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Then you're not qualified to discuss it.

I don't really want to discuss it...but I just have read the article and from what I have read if all of those deciets were really in the movie...then I don't want to see it...it would probably give me a good laugh though!

[ryan8472]

I just had to post the title of a book I found linked to on Coultergeist's website: Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man. How charming, and original :rolleyes:

Ok, continue with the "debate" (which seems to be a lot ofquestioning, and even more dancing around the subject.....)

[dissention]

I don't really want to discuss it...but I just have read the article and from what I have read if all of those deciets were really in the movie...then I don't want to see it...it would probably give me a good laugh though!

Thanks, you proved my point even further. You form opinions without doing the necessary work needed to form them.

[dissention]

I just had to post the title of a book I found linked to on Coultergeist's website: Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man. How charming, and original :rolleyes:

Ok, continue with the "debate" (which seems to be a lot ofquestioning, and even more dancing around the subject.....)

But but but but but, Ryan! I thought only liberals called people names! Harumph! :eek: :mad:

[ryan8472]

always trying to undermind.
Not to be a nit-pick, but that's undermine, dear.

[dissention]

Not to be a nit-pick, but that's undermine, dear.

I guess the old saying that only elitist liberals are well-educated is true. :laugh:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I just had to post the title of a book I found linked to on Coultergeist's website: Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man. How charming, and original :rolleyes:

Ok, continue with the "debate" (which seems to be a lot ofquestioning, and even more dancing around the subject.....)

Actually its not an original its the title of a Michael Moore book...just reused a little.

"Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation!" by Michael Moore.

the just added fat...because well lets face it...he is.

So its not an original idea...it was Moore's himself.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Not to be a nit-pick, but that's undermine, dear.

lol...sorry.

I made a typing error.

I'm human and realize my faults...gosh!

[dissention]

Actually its not an original its the title of a Michael Moore book...just reused a little.

"Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation!" by Michael Moore.

the just added fat...because well lets face it...he is.

So its not an original idea...it was Moore's himself.

Hehehe. So not only are conservatives wrong about everything, they're unoriginal, too. :laugh:

Kid, you really need to get some life experience under your belt before making such stupid decisions about your beliefs and your politics.

[ryan8472]

Actually its not an original its the title of a Michael Moore book...just reused a little.

"Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation!" by Michael Moore.

the just added fat...because well lets face it...he is.

So its not an original idea...it was Moore's himself.
Ahem, note the rolly eyes smilie. :rolleyes:

I guess conservatives just aren't as talented as liberals are when it comes to choosing book titles. :shrug: :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Hehehe. So not only are conservatives wrong about everything, they're unoriginal, too. :laugh:

Kid, you really need to get some life experience under your belt before making such stupid decisions about your beliefs and your politics.

and exactly how old are you now?

and trust me and amount of living would just reaffirm my already strong political point of view.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ahem, note the rolly eyes smilie. :rolleyes:

I guess conservatives just aren't as talented as liberals are when it comes to choosing book titles. :shrug: :wavey:

A few posts back it was "I thought only liberals called people names! Harumph!"

But now that you were actually bright enough to realize that it WAS a liberal who came up with the title, you change the tune to..."Conservatives can't come up with titles for themselves."

[SuzeQuze]

A few posts back it was

But now that you were actually bright enough to realize that it WAS a liberal who came up with the title, you change the tune to..."Conservatives can't come up with titles for themselves."

Um, you can't even understand a simple sentence. Look into a reading comprehension class, please.

[ryan8472]

A few posts back it was

But now that you were actually bright enough to realize that it WAS a liberal who came up with the title, you change the tune to..."Conservatives can't come up with titles for themselves."
Ah, but a liberal DID NOT come up with the title. A liberal thought up his own title for a book, and then a conservative saw that, twisted it into his own wording, and placed someone's name in front of it. :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Um, you can't even understand a simple sentence. Look into a reading comprehension class, please.

and now it's..."I can't comprehend a scentence"...what part of that scentence did I not "comprehend" correctly.

[ryan8472]

and now it's..."I can't comprehend a scentence"...what part of that scentence did I not "comprehend" correctly.
No, now it's that you can't comprehend a SENTENCE.

^Grammar Nazi :wavey: ;)

[SuzeQuze]

and now it's..."I can't comprehend a scentence"...what part of that scentence did I not "comprehend" correctly.

What the hell is a scentence?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ah, but a liberal DID NOT come up with the title. A liberal thought up his own title for a book, and then a conservative saw that, twisted it into his own wording, and placed someone's name in front of it. :wavey:

To make a point...

The stupid white men that moore refers too...happens to be his own self, in that author's opinion.

and as if Al Franken's "A Fair and Balanced look at the right" is not a play on someone else's tag line.

[ontheEdgeof17]

What the hell is a scentence?


Ah....give him a break. We all have typos. Disregard them. :)

[The Tower]

Not to be a nit-pick, but that's undermine, dear.

Don't be so damn nit-picky! Remember, I have my right to bare arms.

;)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

What the hell is a scentence?

Sorry, there goes my poor typing skills again.

[dissention]

There once was a she-beast named Ann
They whispered she once was a man
When she gets a hair across her tranny white ass
You can see that her balls are made of brass
But in awful weather
Those balls clang together
And sparks fly out of her ass!

[SuzeQuze]

No, now it's that you can't comprehend a SENTENCE.

^Grammar Nazi :wavey: ;)

:xoxo: :xoxo:

[ryan8472]

What the hell is a scentence?
It's how Sean Connery says sentence? :lol:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Don't be so damn nit-picky! Remember, I have my right to bare arms.

;)

lol..bear arms.

I really am not the best typist in the world.

[dissention]

It's how Sean Connery says sentence? :lol:

:lol:

+10 and a cookie!!!!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

There once was a she-beast named Ann
They whispered she once was a man
When she gets a hair across her skinny white ass
You can see that her balls are made of brass
But in awful weather
Those balls clang together
And sparks fly out of her ass!

and this is the proclaimed "funniness" that is the memebers of The Ledge. Boy, I don't feel so bad now for the bad typing...it makes up for the lousy taste in humor.

[SuzeQuze]

:lol:

+10 and a cookie!!!!

Or people from Scenectedy.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It's how Sean Connery says sentence? :lol:

LMAO...that is funny!

[dissention]

and this is the proclaimed "funniness" that is the memebers of The Ledge. Boy, I don't feel so bad now for the bad typing...it makes up for the lousy taste in humor.

I <3333333 my sense of humour. :D

At least I can say I have one. Posting photographs of babies with guns in their laps does not a funny post make. ;)

[DrummerDeanna]

There once was a she-beast named Ann
They whispered she once was a man
When she gets a hair across her tranny white ass
You can see that her balls are made of brass
But in awful weather
Those balls clang together
And sparks fly out of her ass!

:lol: :lol:

It's been a long time since I've read a good limerick ;) Thanks!! :laugh:

And yeah brwn_eyes - you defninitely need to a) expand your horizons and open your mind

b) take some reading comprehension classes

c) stop being an idiot

[ryan8472]

I <3333333 my sense of humour. :D

At least I can say I have one. Posting photographs of babies with guns in their laps does not a funny post make. ;)
That was a funny limerick, Yoda. :xoxo: :p

[ontheEdgeof17]

That was a funny limerick, Yoda. :xoxo: :p

Does that make you a Jedi? :p

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:lol: :lol:

It's been a long time since I've read a good limerick ;) Thanks!! :laugh:

And yeah brwn_eyes - you defninitely need to a) expand your horizons and open your mind

b) take some reading comprehension classes

c) stop being an idiot


I love how all of that could be directed at me...but you guys are ALL:

a) Wise and smart beyond your years with complete open minds.
b) So confident in your comprehending skills that you criticize others for not seeing things the same way you do.
c) And better than others...so you can resort to name calling, because the term idiot couldn't even be applied to you.

[Sugar]

Brwn Eyes, I'm curious as to what other columnists you like...other than Ann Coulter

[The Tower]

c) stop being an idiot

Yes, please. This sucker is troll-o-rama central. I wonder who it is? CarneVaca returned from the grave and having fun? 1/2 Insane gone fully insane? - although, since he already had, I don't know if this one's a go.

[ryan8472]

Does that make you a Jedi? :p
Sure :lol: Though I guess I could be Diss' padewan learner... :lol:

[GateandGarden]

Michael Moore would still be a no-name if it weren't for his oscar speech which was deemed idiotic by even Ms. Barbra Streisand.
So Streisand is some sort of authority on the quality of speeches now?

Look, I'm just wondering when you'll kindly leave, since we just see you as someone to laugh at and pity, and even Deanna, one of the kindest people on the board, called you an idiot. If that happened to me, I would take a hike at that point. I'm capable of taking a hint in most cases. Unless your some troll created by dissention for entertainment purposes. (If that is the case, Diss--it was only funny for a little while, but it's getting old. ;) :laugh: )

[dissention]

Sure :lol: Though I guess I could be Diss' padewan learner... :lol:

Eeeeeee, that made me giggle like nothing has in a long while. :laugh: :xoxo: :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Brwn Eyes, I'm curious as to what other columnists you like...other than Ann Coulter

Linda Chavez, Michael Barone, and Tony Snow, are some that I tend to read.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Sure :lol: Though I guess I could be Diss' padewan learner... :lol:


I'm more on the Jar Jar Binx side. :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

So Streisand is some sort of authority on the quality of speeches now?

Look, I'm just wondering when you'll kindly leave, since we just see you as someone to laugh at and pity, and even Deanna, one of the kindest people on the board, called you an idiot. If that happened to me, I would take a hike at that point. I'm capable of taking a hint in most cases. Unless your some troll created by dissention for entertainment purposes. (If that is the case, Diss--it was only funny for a little while, but it's getting old. ;) :laugh: )

Why do I have to leave if I am a Fleetwood Mac fan...should I remain quite just because everyone here has a different political view then myself...what happened to my freedom of speech?

[ryan8472]

I'm more on the Jar Jar Binx side. :shrug:
Below the belt, buddy. Below the belt. Don't EVER mention Jar Jar Binks to me. He alone brought on a whole new era of Star Wars haters. :lol:

In other words, READ THE AVATAR. :cool:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yes, please. This sucker is troll-o-rama central. I wonder who it is? CarneVaca returned from the grave and having fun? 1/2 Insane gone fully insane? - although, since he already had, I don't know if this one's a go.

Im just a fleetwood mac fan who wanted to join the community...and came to the chit chat section and saw some postings bashing Bush and conservatives, and I just couldn't keep quite...should I have? Why is that fair?

[GateandGarden]

a) Wise and smart beyond your years with complete open minds.
b) So confident in your comprehending skills that you criticize others for not seeing things the same way you do.
c) And better than others...so you can resort to name calling, because the term idiot couldn't even be applied to you.

a) no, perhaps wiser and definitely more humble than you, and more open-minded by default :shrug:
b) sure, why not? We criticize each other a lot on this board. Sometimes it's just for conversation or because we're bored. In your case, it's because we find you extremely irritating and are looking for chances to criticize you.
c) Oh, it has been. I never said I couldn't be called names. But I can honestly say that with everything I've done in my life, I have NEVER been the condescending asshole as you have on this board. I simply have never gone that far and have never had any desire to.

[dissention]

I love how all of that could be directed at me...but you guys are ALL:

a) Wise and smart beyond your years with complete open minds.
b) So confident in your comprehending skills that you criticize others for not seeing things the same way you do.
c) And better than others...so you can resort to name calling, because the term idiot couldn't even be applied to you.

I'm an idiot when it comes to many, many things, but not when it comes to politics. I have no problem with the fact that you're a conservative, if that's you, then fine. Let's discuss the issue using facts. We do it with Nancy when she participates and everything is hunky dory. But don't post lies, unsubstantiated garbage, partial quotes, distorted quotes, quotes you don't seem to comprehend when discussing them, or your opinions if you have nothing to base those opinions on. It gets people angry and it makes you look like a fool.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

So Streisand is some sort of authority on the quality of speeches now?

Look, I'm just wondering when you'll kindly leave, since we just see you as someone to laugh at and pity, and even Deanna, one of the kindest people on the board, called you an idiot. If that happened to me, I would take a hike at that point. I'm capable of taking a hint in most cases. Unless your some troll created by dissention for entertainment purposes. (If that is the case, Diss--it was only funny for a little while, but it's getting old. ;) :laugh: )

btw...my point by saying that even Streisand found Moore to be in poor taste in that instance...was to say that EVEN a very liberal person such as Ms. Streisand thought that Moore was out of line...

why is that such an idiotic point! and why am I being treated like an idiot here...because I disagree with some of you. Its very upsetting...but Thank God I don't care...THAT much! ;)

[GateandGarden]

...what happened to my freedom of speech?I didn't say you should be banned by the admin here. I suggested you make the decision to leave.

Don't give me that bull**** about differing political views. Everything you have expressed has been for the sole purpose of pissing off everyone here. It's not like you wanted to engage in some enlightening debate or you were looking to learn something from someone else. It doesn't matter if you own every freakin' FM CD--you're still trolling.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'm an idiot when it comes to many, many things, but not when it comes to politics. I have no problem with the fact that you're a conservative, if that's you, then fine. Let's discuss the issue using facts. We do it with Nancy when she participates and everything is hunky dory. But don't post lies, unsubstantiated garbage, partial quotes, distorted quotes, quotes you don't seem to comprehend when discussing them, or your opinions if you have nothing to base those opinions on. It gets people angry and it makes you look like a fool.

Well if every thing that I post is called idiotic or untrue...then we will never gain any ground. Because you are so quick to judge and anything that I post is not fact but opinion...in that case everything can be opinion then.

[GateandGarden]

why is that such an idiotic point! and why am I being treated like an idiot here...because I disagree with some of you. Its very upsetting...but Thank God I don't care...THAT much! ;)Perhaps you're being treated like an idiot because you're acting like one?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I didn't say you should be banned by the admin here. I suggested you make the decision to leave.

Don't give me that bull**** about differing political views. Everything you have expressed has been for the sole purpose of pissing off everyone here. It's not like you wanted to engage in some enlightening debate or you were looking to learn something from someone else. It doesn't matter if you own every freakin' FM CD--you're still trolling.

I have not said this to piss anyone off. I just wanted to present DIFFERENT views here. God forbid I do anything like that...and since Im the only one trying to defend ME...Im called a troll...what a joke! You guys are very uptight.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Perhaps you're being treated like an idiot because you're acting like one?

Why am I acting like an idiot?

because I am conservative? Why is that idiotic...im trying to understand.

[GateandGarden]

Well if every thing that I post is called idiotic or untrue...then we will never gain any ground. Because you are so quick to judge and anything that I post is not fact but opinion...in that case everything can be opinion then.You can't be taken seriously later on if you start off on the wrong foot as a hateful bigot. :shrug: If you want to change your plan of attack and become more diplomatic, people won't even believe you. Not that I foresee that, anyway. Pretty much no one on this board is "quick to judge." We gave you the chance we give every other poster, but your hateful rhetoric started up right off the bat.

[GateandGarden]

I have not said this to piss anyone off. I just wanted to present DIFFERENT views here. God forbid I do anything like that...and since Im the only one trying to defend ME...Im called a troll...what a joke! You guys are very uptight.Nancy is a conservative and I think she would agree that you're doing nothing but trolling and attempting to piss people off. So it's not just us liberals.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I suppose from now on I should just post in the FM topic boards. I'll come here some to post AC columns, because I still think there should be opposing views here. But I don't want everyone to f**king hate me for being different.

So, sorry for being such an "idiot"

[SuzeQuze]

Well if every thing that I post is called idiotic or untrue...then we will never gain any ground. Because you are so quick to judge and anything that I post is not fact but opinion...in that case everything can be opinion then.

If you really believe you're innocent of baiting people to get them riled up that is scary. I guess you're enjoying the attention that you've gotten here. It surprises me that you do not see what is so annoying about your posts. You can say whaver the hell you want to. But obviously if you start posting right wing nut job crap on a largely liberal board you are going to hear about it. The folks on here who are liberal are well-informed. Your attempts at "showing us the other side" are futile at best. We know the other side quite well, and denounce it. That's all there is to it. So if you are trying to "gain ground" you should realize you're really just walking a treadmill, you'll never get anywhere here. This is why folks thought you may stop posting your drivel, which you have not, so people continue to post rebuttals to your nonsense. Personally, I'm done with dealing with you on a political level.

[GateandGarden]

You guys are very uptight.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: The pot calling the kettle black.

[ryan8472]

Why am I acting like an idiot?

because I am conservative? Why is that idiotic...im trying to understand.
Oh for god's sake.....It's not that you are a conservative! It's that you are posting these things solely to get the liberals going.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You can't be taken seriously later on if you start off on the wrong foot as a hateful bigot. :shrug: If you want to change your plan of attack and become more diplomatic, people won't even believe you. Not that I foresee that, anyway. Pretty much no one on this board is "quick to judge." We gave you the chance we give every other poster, but your hateful rhetoric started up right off the bat.

how so? :confused: :confused:

[sodascouts]

I'm an idiot when it comes to many, many things, but not when it comes to politics. I have no problem with the fact that you're a conservative, if that's you, then fine. Let's discuss the issue using facts. We do it with Nancy when she participates and everything is hunky dory. But don't post lies, unsubstantiated garbage, partial quotes, distorted quotes, quotes you don't seem to comprehend when discussing them, or your opinions if you have nothing to base those opinions on. It gets people angry and it makes you look like a fool.

So can we expect you (or anyone else) to address the content of the Ann Coulter piece now? I'd like to hear some liberal perspectives on the Dan Rather incident.

[GateandGarden]

But I don't want everyone to f**king hate me for being different.Nope, different is inherently a great thing. I f*cking hate you because you are hateful, not because you're conservative. You don't see that, so there's no use in continuing to point it out, I suppose.Okay, that is admittedly too much. I take that back. I don't hate you because I don't even know you. But I can't stand it when people say heterosexuality is in any way superior to homosexuality, and I can't stand it when people say I can't get married. And I am completely justified.

[dissention]

I suppose from now on I should just post in the FM topic boards. I'll come here some to post AC columns, because I still think there should be opposing views here. But I don't want everyone to f**king hate me for being different.

So, sorry for being such an "idiot"

I don't hate you. I'd just like to see a different approach when you participate. That includes backing your stances up with facts. Don't spew right-wing talking points that have been debunked endlessly and expect people to warm up to you. Posting op-eds from that hateful wench Ann Coulter certianly isn't going to win you any friends. Even the rare conservatives around here see her for what she is.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Oh for god's sake.....It's not that you are a conservative! It's that you are posting these things solely to get the liberals going.

Thats NOT what I intended to do believe it or not...I just would possibley like good conversation to begin over columns and articles that I like...but that doesen't seem to be happening.

[GateandGarden]

how so? :confused: :confused:How so what? How would you be more diplomatic? I don't know. Are you asking how you've been a hateful bigot? I can't believe you would ask that. Read almost everything you said about gay people and liberals in that other thread.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I suppose from now on I should just post in the FM topic boards. I'll come here some to post AC columns, because I still think there should be opposing views here. But I don't want everyone to f**king hate me for being different.

So, sorry for being such an "idiot"


We don't hate you. You just need to back up what you say. Political/Religious threads get very heated, but it doesn't mean we don't like you. There are a few conservatives around here who we enjoy chatting with....because they know their s**t.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't hate you. I'd just like to see a different approach when you participate. That includes backing your stances up with facts. Don't spew right-wing talking points that have been debunked endlessly and expect people to warm up to you. Posting op-eds from that hateful wench Ann Coulter certianly isn't going to win you any friends. Even the rare conservatives around here see her for what she is.

Well Im sorry if me liking Ann Coulter makes me "hateful" and strange. But I can't help whom I tend to agree with most, and enjoy reading their columns.

[ryan8472]

Thats NOT what I intended to do believe it or not...I just would possibley like good conversation to begin over columns and articles that I like...but that doesen't seem to be happening.
You must've know that Dissention would be all on your ass though, right? :lol:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

We don't hate you. You just need to back up what you say. Political/Religious threads get very heated, but it doesn't mean we don't like you. There are a few conservatives around here who we enjoy chatting with....because they know their s**t.

Im just not a good defender on "the net" im much better in person...because it doesn't require TYPING... :) I admitt again that I AM an amateur, but just because of that dosen't mean that I don't know what I believe and why I beileve it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

How so what? How would you be more diplomatic? I don't know. Are you asking how you've been a hateful bigot? I can't believe you would ask that. Read almost everything you said about gay people and liberals in that other thread.

I said again and again that I didn't HATE gay people...as a matter of fact I LOVE gay people just as much as I do STRAIGHT people...because I try hard to love and appreciate all human beings. But that doesn't mean that I have to support gay marriage.

[DrummerDeanna]

I really wish I could stay away from these topics :laugh: My life would be so much less of a hassle....I get so worked up and pissed off lol...

[GateandGarden]

I said again and again that I didn't HATE gay people...as a matter of fact I LOVE gay people just as much as I do STRAIGHT people...because I try hard to love and appreciate all human beings. But that doesn't mean that I have to support gay marriage.I'm tired of trying to explain this. What's the point in even posting about it? But here it is:

Actively opposing gay marriage=hating gay people

It's as simple as that. And few things in life are that simple.

[SuzeQuze]

So can we expect you (or anyone else) to address the content of the Ann Coulter piece now? I'd like to hear some liberal perspectives on the Dan Rather incident.

From what I understand Rather should have made sure the sources were more solid. However, I believe that memo was never proven to be false. Some believe that it was real. When Mrs. Bush was asked about the memo and if it were true, early on, she said "I don't think so." What does that mean? It might have been because her husband didn't show up for duty but she's not sure if that particular memo was false? Should Rather have had to retire earlier over all of this? I don't think so. Lots of false consertive leaning stuff goes over the airways but no one gets in trouble for it. The propoganda that passes for news has gotten very scary. This was an isolated incident in Rather's career that was blown way out of proportion, IMO.

[dissention]

So can we expect you (or anyone else) to address the content of the Ann Coulter piece now? I'd like to hear some liberal perspectives on the Dan Rather incident.

If Brown Eyes had done a simple search, he would have seen numerous threads where we discussed the Dan Rather incident. But for you, Nancy, I'll state my liberal position on it once more. :xoxo:

CBS and Dan Rather did journalism and the race to get Bush out of the White House a huge disservice. Their behavior was disgraceful and there's no other way to say it. Calling it sloppy journalism doesn't even scratch the surface.

As for that piece of trash that was posted and written by Coulter, I find it distasteful and cheap. She's still perpetuating the lie that Bill Clinton is a rapist. And us liberals are scum? Gimme a break.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

So can we expect you (or anyone else) to address the content of the Ann Coulter piece now? I'd like to hear some liberal perspectives on the Dan Rather incident.

THANK YOU...thats what I was going for...I didn't even really feel like i NEEDED to join in on a debate...I just like to get good healthy (non angry) debates going...I like them. I just want to see where they spiral too.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'm tired of trying to explain this. What's the point in even posting about it? But here it is:

Actively opposing gay marriage=hating gay people

It's as simple as that. And few things in life are that simple.

Well there are lots of people who disagree with that.

I LOVE you as a human being, but I just disagree with gay lifestyle, its against my beliefs...im not trying to force it on YOU. I just don't agree with it. Why does that mean that I HATE you.

[dissention]

Well there are lots of people who disagree with that.

I LOVE you as a human being, but I just disagree with gay lifestyle, its against my beliefs...im not trying to force it on YOU. I just don't agree with it. Why does that mean that I HATE you.

Since when is it a "lifestyle"?

[MikeB]

Actively opposing gay marriage=hating gay people

It's as simple as that. And few things in life are that simple.

bull****.
I'm sorry,but some of you ARE trying to push Brwn_eyes out of this forum based on the fact that you don't agree with Brwn_eyes' differing views.
Even I don't agree with things he/she says,but you are bullying.
You seem to want it to be all ass-kissing & sweetness here where everyone agrees all the time. That's not reality.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Since when is it a "lifestyle"?

In the way that "I" view it. Its just a subject that we just dont need to talk about. But I DONT HATE GAY PEOPLE. I just disagree with gay marriage I don't hate them.

[GateandGarden]

Well there are lots of people who disagree with that.Once again, what's right is not always what's popular.

I LOVE you as a human being, but I just disagree with gay lifestyle, its against my beliefs...im not trying to force it on YOU. I just don't agree with it. Why does that mean that I HATE you.Okay, stop saying you love me, even if you mean it in a Christian way. It's still f*cking ludicrous. For the umpteenth time, HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A LIFESTYLE ANY MORE THAN HETEROSEXUALITY IS. And, for the last time, it is hateful and discriminatory to say that the institution of marriage is an exclusive club designed for heterosexuals only. It's as though heterosexuals are better than homosexuals and are the only ones entitled to that institution, which is one that is very meaningful to many, including me. And, it is hateful to say you are against my "lifestyle" because it's a part of who I am! It is me! I cannot be separated from it! I can't say "I love you, but I totally disapprove of your straight lifestyle, which is against my beliefs," because that would be absolutely ridiculous, and it's the same damn thing and you just refuse to see that. Even you said that you think people are born gay. Then it obviously is a part of who I am. Sorry, if you hate homosexuality, you hate me. I am one of them. Stop trying to separate them so you can sleep better at night and convince yourself that you're doing right by your religion and not hating. Please. And, in addition to all of that MARRIAGE IS A CIVIL INSTITUTION AND NOT A RELIGIOUS ONE, so the whole debate is pointless. Whether or not I can get married has absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible says about it, or any other holy book.

This is the last time I'm saying all of this to you. You should have understood already, since people like Krista and Stew have already explained it much better as I know they can.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

bull****.
I'm sorry,but some of you ARE trying to push Brwn_eyes out of this forum based on the fact that you don't agree with Brwn_eyes' differing views.
Even I don't agree with things he/she says,but you are bullying.
You seem to want it to be all ass-kissing & sweetness here where everyone agrees all the time. That's not reality.

Thank you Mike. Finally someone UNDERSTANDS what being able to have different views means

[sodascouts]

I'm tired of trying to explain this. What's the point in even posting about it? But here it is:

Actively opposing gay marriage=hating gay people

It's as simple as that. And few things in life are that simple.

You're right about the latter part of that - nothing in life is that simple. You said something similar on the BN board a while back. I believe you said that no one who votes for George Bush cares about others (correct me if I'm wrong). For someone who wants understanding, you seem to have a difficult time understanding others. And this kind of divisive rhetoric will win over no one to your cause.

I think it's a shame, because you're an intelligent person. I hope one day you learn to be tolerant of those who disagree with you, and judge people on a personal level rather than by whether or not they agree with your views on gay marriage.

Calling everyone who disagrees with you "hateful" is no better than Ann Coulter classifying everyone who disagrees with her as "scum." So I guess this is an appropriate thread for your comments.

I hope this post doesn't make me hateful in your eyes, Hilary. Because that would sadden me greatly.

[GateandGarden]

bull****.
I'm sorry,but some of you ARE trying to push Brwn_eyes out of this forum based on the fact that you don't agree with Brwn_eyes' differing views.
Even I don't agree with things he/she says,but you are bullying.
You seem to want it to be all ass-kissing & sweetness here where everyone agrees all the time. That's not reality.Everyone doesn't always agree but we still care about each other. However, you cannot say that you care about your gay, lesbian, or bisexual friend if you think he or she does not deserve to be able to marry his or her partner. That's not bull****. Sorry. And, yes, I am attempting to push someone out of the forum because his or her differing views are more than just differing, they're downright intolerant and discriminatory against a minority group.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Once again, what's right is not always what's popular.

Okay, stop saying you love me, even if you mean it in a Christian way. It's still f*cking ludicrous. For the umpteenth time, HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A LIFESTYLE ANY MORE THAN HETEROSEXUALITY IS. And, for the last time, it is hateful and discriminatory to say that the institution of marriage is an exclusive club designed for heterosexuals only. It's as though heterosexuals are better than homosexuals and are the only ones entitled to that institution, which is one that is very meaningful to many, including me. And, it is hateful to say you are against my "lifestyle" because it's a part of who I am! It is me! I cannot be separated from it! I can't say "I love you, but I totally disapprove of your straight lifestyle, which is against my beliefs," because that would be absolutely ridiculous, and it's the same damn thing and you just refuse to see that. Even you said that you think people are born gay. Then it obviously is a part of who I am. Sorry, if you hate homosexuality, you hate me. I am one of them. Stop trying to separate them so you can sleep better at night and convince yourself that you're doing right by your religion and not hating. Please. And, in addition to all of that MARRIAGE IS A CIVIL INSTITUTION AND NOT A RELIGIOUS ONE, so the whole debate is pointless. Whether or not I can get married has absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible says about it, or any other holy book.

This is the last time I'm saying all of this to you. You should have understood already, since people like Krista and Stew have already explained it much better as I know they can.

Well I’m not going to apologize any longer for having a different view of gay marriage then you do. And I’m not going to apologize for your lack of reality if you actually think the majority of American supports same-sex marriage.

BUT, that said. I don't hate you. And I really would like to get along...so see you on the FM boards hopefully!

[sodascouts]

If Brown Eyes had done a simple search, he would have seen numerous threads where we discussed the Dan Rather incident. But for you, Nancy, I'll state my liberal position on it once more. :xoxo:

CBS and Dan Rather did journalism and the race to get Bush out of the White House a huge disservice. Their behavior was disgraceful and there's no other way to say it. Calling it sloppy journalism doesn't even scratch the surface.

As for that piece of trash that was posted and written by Coulter, I find it distasteful and cheap. She's still perpetuating the lie that Bill Clinton is a rapist. And us liberals are scum? Gimme a break.

Thanks, diss. I appreciate it. I hope everyone follows your lead and takes the disturbing personal edge off of this thread.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Everyone doesn't always agree but we still care about each other. However, you cannot say that you care about your gay, lesbian, or bisexual friend if you think he or she does not deserve to be able to marry his or her partner. That's not bull****. Sorry. And, yes, I am attempting to push someone out of the forum because his or her differing views are more than just differing, they're downright intolerant and discriminatory against a minority group.

In YOUR opinion they are intolerant views.

I feel that you trying to FORCE anyone off of a online forum is an INTOLERANT action...you can't "tolerate" different views so you simply try to believe that they are not so...by calling those who believe them "hateful"...where’s all that tolerance when you need it?

[MikeB]

Calling everyone who disagrees with you "hateful" is no better than Ann Coulter classifying everyone who disagrees with her as "scum."


Exactly.
I'm not going to post further on these matters due to the pack-mentality of some board members. Some of you seem so determined to rip another to shreds because you don't agree with their views,views they are PERFECTLY ENTITLED to express.

[GateandGarden]

You're right about the latter part of that - nothing in life is that simple. You said something similar on the BN board a while back. I believe you said that no one who votes for George Bush cares about others (correct me if I'm wrong). For someone who wants understanding, you seem to have a difficult time understanding others. And this kind of divisive rhetoric will win over no one to your cause.

I think it's a shame, because you're an intelligent person. I hope one day you learn to be tolerant of those who disagree with you, and judge people on a personal level rather than by whether or not they agree with your views on gay marriage.

Calling everyone who disagrees with you "hateful" is no better than Ann Coulter classifying everyone who disagrees with her as "scum." So I guess this is an appropriate thread for your comments.

I hope this post doesn't make me hateful in your eyes, Hilary. Because that would sadden me greatly.Nancy, I really think this goes far beyond a "differing viewpoint." It greatly infringes on someone else's chances at happiness in life. I didn't say that all people who voted for Bush don't care about others. I meant that those who like him and agree with his intolerant views of gay people don't care about gay people. That is what I intended, though it was not expressed well because I was angry and I hardly ever express myself well when I'm angry. I'm sorry, but if "everyone who disagrees with me" is the same as "everyone who is against me getting married," then, yes, I believe they are being hateful. I can't see why I should be expected to change my mind about that. Nancy, I try to understand your viewpoints because you are intelligent and your posts reflect that and I respect the things you have to say, but no matter how hard I try, I cannot understand where you're coming from with this.

[DrummerDeanna]

I must say - that disagreeing with gay marriage does not automatically mean someone hates gay people.

My sister does not support gay marriage - but she has nothing buy love and respect for me - even when I've dated women. She may not understand it- but she tries and doesn't think I'm going to hell etc....she's not hateful in any way.

In fact - a woman I used to work with who is a lesbian is against gay marriage :shrug: Civil unions she's all for - but yeah - she def. doesn't hate gay people lol - so that point I do see...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Exactly.
I'm not going to post further on these matters due to the pack-mentality of some board members. Some of you seem so determined to rip another to shreds because you don't agree with their views,views they are PERFECTLY ENTITLED to express.

Thank you.
I'm tired of feeling like Im a monster. I really am not!

[DrummerDeanna]

I think a lot of it is the WAY in which your views are presented....not the views themselves....

[GateandGarden]

Exactly.
I'm not going to post further on these matters due to the pack-mentality of some board members. Some of you seem so determined to rip another to shreds because you don't agree with their views,views they are PERFECTLY ENTITLED to express.People are entitled to express their views. Once again, I never said the admin should ban people for that. But I have to get mad and, yes, intolerant, when someone is intolerant of me first.

[GateandGarden]

I must say - that disagreeing with gay marriage does not automatically mean someone hates gay people.

My sister does not support gay marriage - but she has nothing buy love and respect for me - even when I've dated women. She may not understand it- but she tries and doesn't think I'm going to hell etc....she's not hateful in any way.

In fact - a woman I used to work with who is a lesbian is against gay marriage :shrug: Civil unions she's all for - but yeah - she def. doesn't hate gay people lol - so that point I do see...I think that those people just don't understand homosexuality. They're not trying to be hateful, but they unconsciously put themselves right in the same category with those who do hate gay people by opposing gay marriage. :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I think that those people just don't understand homosexuality. They're not trying to be hateful, but they unconsciously put themselves right in the same category with those who do hate gay people by opposing gay marriage. :shrug:

I still don't understand how opposing gay marriage automatically means that you hate that person too? I don't understand that logic at all!

[GateandGarden]

I still don't understand how opposing gay marriage automatically means that you hate that person too? I don't understand that logic at all!I explained that in a really long post. And this is unnecessarily stressful for me so I'm going to bow out at this point. If it helps, go back and read that post and ponder it. That's all I can say. I can't believe I've spent this much time doing this because deep down I know that I'm just pissing people off with the way I'm wording my posts as well and that's unproductive and unfeeling and not who I am.

[sodascouts]

I think that those people just don't understand homosexuality. They're not trying to be hateful, but they unconsciously put themselves right in the same category with those who do hate gay people by opposing gay marriage. :shrug:

Even the lesbian Deanna mentioned who is against gay marriage?

[Sugar]

OK Brwn Eyes...I just did a quick skim of some of your first posts...So you can't understand why people are pissed?

Let's see...you've been a member for...a week?

You've already deemed Ann Coulter as a speaker of "the truth" (not just someone you agree with)

Said "Eat, drink, and murder the unborn" was the battle cry of every liberal

Responded to GypsySorcerer's claim that the Repubs haven't addressed the environment, civil liberties, the reasons for war in Iraq, and oppression of the poor with simply that is was the "cry of every liberal." You then said GypsySorcerer was never a true conservative.

You've said plenty of "you liberals" "like all liberals" crap...

You know it was a liberal board. If you TRUELY wanted to try to make people see the other side I can't imagine why you would have chosen to say the above sorts of things when everything you were responding to had the opportunity of allowing you to simply express the other side. Which makes it seem that you don't want to be part of this community, and that you just want to start trouble.

And you should know that a board that can support week long threads on whether Fleetwood Mac owes more to Lindsey or Stevie has no problem with a fight.

You want to argue a point, argue a point. Just keep the people out of it.

[GateandGarden]

Even the lesbian Deanna mentioned who is against gay marriage?Denna is bi, but I didn't think she was against gay marriage. Are you, Deanna? :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I explained that in a really long post. And this is unnecessarily stressful for me so I'm going to bow out at this point. If it helps, go back and read that post and ponder it. That's all I can say. I can't believe I've spent this much time doing this because deep down I know that I'm just pissing people off with the way I'm wording my posts as well and that's unproductive and unfeeling and not who I am.

I understand your frustrastion. But I hope we can find a way to "get along" at the boards. I will re-look at the way I word and post things...because REALLY my intention was never to post hateful things and get people to hate me!

[ontheEdgeof17]

Denna is bi, but I didn't think she was against gay marriage. Are you, Deanna? :shrug:


No No....her lesbian friend opposes it.

[GateandGarden]

No No....her lesbian friend opposes it.Oh, sorry. I read that wrong.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Denna is bi, but I didn't think she was against gay marriage. Are you, Deanna? :shrug:

I actually know alot of gay people who are AGAINST gay marriage.

[dissention]

Thanks, diss. I appreciate it. I hope everyone follows your lead and takes the disturbing personal edge off of this thread.

Thank you, Nancy.

And just to clarify things, I do not "hate" anyone with views that differ from mine. To me, what you believe when it comes to politics speaks about you on a very intimate and personal level. What you believe in politically is what you're all about as a person, IMO. As nice a thought as it might be, it's simply very difficult for someone to separate another's political beliefs from them on a personal level.

I may view someone as ill-informed, ignorant, and/or rather idiotic, but that doesn't mean that I hate them or dislike them. Would I like everyone to hold my opinions? You can bet your ass, this world would be a lot better if they did. But that's not reality. People have wildly different views from myself. I try to understand where they're coming form when I can, but that simply isn't possible on many occasions. I live a very different life than someone who lives in Alabama or Wyoming. I'm in Massachusetts, I'm exposed to many different beliefs and tolerances than people in said states, just as they are exposed to different beliefs and tolerances than I am. I'm sure many people are appalled at my political beliefs about how things should run and probably just chalk it up as Massachusetts liberalism.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult for me to understand where a conservative is coming from when they don't post anything that backs up their position. It's not feasible to have a discussion about anything when one party simply says, "Sorry, that's what I believe, end of story." It drives me positively mad because there's nowhere to go with such a statement and it then leads me to believe that someone is either trying to be flame-bait or that they are simply uninformed. If you're a conservative and you want to hop into the discussions, by all means do so. But you must understand that there are all different stripes of people and that making a statement that you hate the "gay lifestyle" is offensive to some and it only becomes more offensive when you fail to explain why and dismiss others by saying it's what you believe.

Join in, I encourage everyone and would rather enjoy it. But please deal in facts and credible resources. We all obviously have internet access, we can all use it. If it means doing some work and having to wait fifteen minutes to post a reply so that you can research something and get a feel for it, then that's what it means. But dealing in beliefs and opinions that are unsupported by facts drive people nuts. We all do it from time to time, but if that's all you're going to do, people are going to go crazy.

[wondergirl9847]

And you should know that a board that can support week long threads on whether Fleetwood Mac owes more to Lindsey or Stevie has no problem with a fight.

And we ALL know that the answer to that is Lindsey. ;)

Tee hee!!

[GateandGarden]

Hilary, re-read my posts and Deanna's. She knows ANOTHER WOMAN who is a lesbian who is against gay marriage.Okay, sorry. Most of the people I've encountered who say that are against the government's involvement in marriage or they are against gay marriage because they think marriage is something inherently religious and they want nothing to do with it. I think it's fine if they want nothing to do with marriage, but why deprive other gays and lesbians of marriage if that's what they want? I think that's being just as insensitive, and especially because minorities really need to stick together and stick up for each other.

Okay, I'm really bowing out. I hate myself when I can't express myself as well as I should.

[Sugar]

And we ALL know that the answer to that is Lindsey. ;)

Tee hee!!


Well of course! It was a rhetorical question...! ;)

[dissention]

Even the lesbian Deanna mentioned who is against gay marriage?

With all due respect, Nancy, I think it's a little bit of a stretch to equate a gay person's lack of support for gay marriage with the a heterosexual's lack of support for it. :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

Would I like everyone to hold my opinions? You can bet your ass, this world would be a lot better if they did. But that's not reality.

I could say the same thing in regards to my being a Christian. The world would be a better place if everyone held my opinion that there is a God and He is a loving, kind, caring God. ;)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And we ALL know that the answer to that is Lindsey. ;)

Tee hee!!

Well the real answer is Christine! Just look at SYW (great album though!) sales to The Dance sales!

:]

But between stevie and lindsey...I have to say Lindsey...

his production and style of creating a song was amazing! There would be no rumours without him.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I actually know alot of gay people who are AGAINST gay marriage.


I used to be until I realized that homosexuality is an issue that shouldn't be an issue. Yes, I am going to make this comparison......It's like being born with a defect. You can't help it. I'm not saying it is a defect. I'm saying that it is not a choice. Since it is not a choice, we should not have "rights" taken away. I can't comprehend why marriage has become a political issue when it's not. It's not a Christian issue, either. There are many other religions that get married. It's a personal rite of passage and it pains me to see that people think otherwise.

[sodascouts]

Okay, sorry. Most of the people I've encountered who say that are against the government's involvement in marriage or they are against gay marriage because they think marriage is something inherently religious and they want nothing to do with it. I think it's fine if they want nothing to do with marriage, but why deprive other gays and lesbians of marriage if that's what they want? I think that's being just as insensitive, and especially because minorities really need to stick together and stick up for each other.

Okay, I'm really bowing out. I hate myself when I can't express myself as well as I should.

Hilary, don't hate yourself. But don't hate others either. That's my advice to you. :)

[wondergirl9847]

Some heteros shouldn't even be married! Let's ban all marriage!! LOL

[dissention]

I used to be until I realized that homosexuality is an issue that shouldn't be an issue. Yes, I am going to make this comparison......It's like being born with a defect. You can't help it. I'm not saying it is a defect. I'm saying that it is not a choice. Since it is not a choice, we should not have "rights" taken away. I can't comprehend why marriage has become a political issue when it's not. It's not a Christian issue, either. There are many other religions that get married. It's a personal rite of passage and it pains me to see that people think otherwise.

It's a defect in the sense that society as a whole does not welcome it or attempt to understand it on an intellectual level.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

OK Brwn Eyes...I just did a quick skim of some of your first posts...So you can't understand why people are pissed?

Let's see...you've been a member for...a week?

You've already deemed Ann Coulter as a speaker of "the truth" (not just someone you agree with)

Said "Eat, drink, and murder the unborn" was the battle cry of every liberal

Responded to GypsySorcerer's claim that the Repubs haven't addressed the environment, civil liberties, the reasons for war in Iraq, and oppression of the poor with simply that is was the "cry of every liberal." You then said GypsySorcerer was never a true conservative.

You've said plenty of "you liberals" "like all liberals" crap...

You know it was a liberal board. If you TRUELY wanted to try to make people see the other side I can't imagine why you would have chosen to say the above sorts of things when everything you were responding to had the opportunity of allowing you to simply express the other side. Which makes it seem that you don't want to be part of this community, and that you just want to start trouble.

And you should know that a board that can support week long threads on whether Fleetwood Mac owes more to Lindsey or Stevie has no problem with a fight.

You want to argue a point, argue a point. Just keep the people out of it.

Thats respectable...and I should watch how I say things...even though I think some of those things to be true I guess I shouldn't say them the way that I did!

[sodascouts]

With all due respect, Nancy, I think it's a little bit of a stretch to equate a gay person's lack of support for gay marriage with the a heterosexual's lack of support for it. :shrug:

Exactly, dissention. That's what I was trying to point out to Hilary. By saying that all people who disagree with gay marriage don't understand homosexuality, she was lumping those people together. We both know that's fallacious.

[ontheEdgeof17]

It's a defect in the sense that society as a whole does not welcome it or attempt to understand it on an intellectual level.


.....and 1 out of 10 of the families will have a homosexual child. Being conservative doesn't mean you are immune to having one.

[MikeB]

It's a defect in the sense that society as a whole does not welcome it or attempt to understand it on an intellectual level.

???
So if they don't 'understand it on an intellectual level' then they're automatically an idiot??

:rolleyes: enough already.

[GateandGarden]

Exactly, dissention. That's what I was trying to point out to Hilary. By saying that all people who disagree with gay marriage don't understand homosexuality, she was lumping those people together. We both know that's fallacious.I see your point there. I agree with that. So, I submit that it's not as simple as I said it was.

[SuzeQuze]

I still don't understand how opposing gay marriage automatically means that you hate that person too? I don't understand that logic at all!

Hillary (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you) feels to be fully happy she needs to get married someday. Getting married isn't allowed her so she isn't happy. The people who make it illegal are denying her a civil right. This is discriminatory and the people who create these laws and support them are discrimating. Discrimination is an insidious form of hatred. I see you are not a hateful person, I am just trying to explain. If you try to put yourself in the other's shoes you may be able to see it.

On a personal level, I am sorry if I seemed mean or hurtful toward you, Brown Eyes because that is not something I would be proud of. Politically, I agree to disagree with you. Emotionally, the things you say seem to "hook me" and I get all riled up. So I don't think I can debate you on these issues in a healthy way. It seemed like you were intentionally baiting me and others and if you weren't then it might be a good idea to choose your words a little more carefully and I will try to abide by my own advice.

And Hill, please don't let other people's opinions make you unhappy, it isn't worth it! :wavey:

[SuzeQuze]

.....and 1 out of 10 of the families will have a homosexual child. Being conservative doesn't mean you are immune to having one.

Lord hear my prayer, may all conservatives have gay offspring... ;)

[dissention]

Exactly, dissention. That's what I was trying to point out to Hilary. By saying that all people who disagree with gay marriage don't understand homosexuality, she was lumping those people together. We both know that's fallacious.

I agree. But I think Hillary was specifically referring exclusively to heterosexual people. Gay men and women oppose gay marriage for a myriad of reasons, but on a whole, they are not the reasons that heterosexual people do. Heterosexuals oppose gay marriage based on things such as religion, change, how they think society should evolve, and sheer disgust. I've met gay men who oppose gay marriage simply because they don't want to get married and because they don't want anything that others feel they shouldn't rightfully have. For many, it's an issue of pride and not being welcomed.

Heterosexuals, IMO, oppose it for the many reasons I posted, but I think they all have the same root: fear and/or disgust.

[sodascouts]

I see your point there. I agree with that. So, I submit that it's not as simple as I said it was.

OK. Oh, and I just realized I've been spelling your name wrong, Hillary. I apologize. I'd go back and edit but dissention hates it when I do that. ;)

[dissention]

???
So if they don't 'understand it on an intellectual level' then they're automatically an idiot??

:rolleyes: enough already.

When it comes to understanding homosexuality, I'd substitute the word "ignorant." But we all know that ignorance breeds idiocy eventually.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Hillary (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you) feels to be fully happy she needs to get married someday. Getting married isn't allowed her so she isn't happy. The people who make it illegal are denying her a civil right. This is discriminatory and the people who create these laws and support them are discrimating. Discrimination is an insidious form of hatred. I see you are not a hateful person, I am just trying to explain. If you try to put yourself in the other's shoes you may be able to see it.

On a personal level, I am sorry if I seemed mean or hurtful toward you, Brown Eyes because that is not something I would be proud of. Politically, I agree to disagree with you. Emotionally, the things you say seem to "hook me" and I get all riled up. So I don't think I can debate you on these issues in a healthy way. It seemed like you were intentionally baiting me and others and if you weren't then it might be a good idea to choose your words a little more carefully and I will try to abide by my own advice.

And Hill, please don't let other people's opinions make you unhappy, it isn't worth it! :wavey:

thats respectful, thanks for trying to understand that I wasn't trying to PERSONALLY upset you guys! :)

[dissention]

OK. Oh, and I just realized I've been spelling your name wrong, Hillary. I apologize. I'd go back and edit but dissention hates it when I do that. ;)

Now that's something I HATE. :laugh: :nod:

[sodascouts]

I can't call up the previous Dan Rather discussions on this search engine. It rejects the search terms "dan" and "rather" and "CBS" as too short or too common. Bizarre!

[GateandGarden]

OK. Oh, and I just realized I've been spelling your name wrong, Hillary. I apologize. I'd go back and edit but dissention hates it when I do that. ;):laugh: It's okay.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

When it comes to understanding homosexuality, I'd substitute the word "ignorant." But we all know that ignorance breeds idiocy eventually.

But I personally think that as long as American is a christian dominated society then gay marriage will never be offically legalized in most places! Because so many christians disagree with it.

[dissention]

.....and 1 out of 10 of the families will have a homosexual child. Being conservative doesn't mean you are immune to having one.

Where do they think all these gay men and women come from in the first place?! :laugh:

[ryan8472]

I can't call up the previous Dan Rather discussions on this search engine. It rejects the search terms "dan" and "rather" and "CBS" as too short or too common. Bizarre!
Maybe it was a fake thread. Oh snap! :lol:

I'm lame today. :wavey:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Where do they think all these gay men and women come from in the first place?! :laugh:


Damn Madonna and Cher for turning us gay!

[dissention]

But I personally think that as long as American is a christian dominated society then gay marriage will never be offically legalized in most places! Because so many christians disagree with it.

And I disagree. The youth of this country is incredibly tolerant to gay men and women and, based on national polls, they support gay marriage by over 50%. That munber will only grow in the future and when they get the chance to vote on the issue, their voices will be heard. Being a Christian does not automatically make you anti-gay marriage.

[DrummerDeanna]

Hilary, don't hate yourself. But don't hate others either. That's my advice to you. :)

That's good advice.

Hillary - I think you should not put all your happiness into marriage - I think that should be the case for anyone gay/straight - we all need to be as happy as possible with ourselves before we can be successful in marriage or any partnership...you're an intelligent and sensetive person - and I hope that find the peace of mind you need :nod

I don't disagree with gay marriage - I think eveyone should have the right to marry - period. If two people love one another then they should be able to express that in marriage if they so wish :nod:

[dissention]

I can't call up the previous Dan Rather discussions on this search engine. It rejects the search terms "dan" and "rather" and "CBS" as too short or too common. Bizarre!

I believe the threads took place back in Septmber/October, so if you keep going back in the pages, you should be able to find them :woohoo:

[dissention]

Maybe it was a fake thread. Oh snap! :lol:

I'm lame today. :wavey:

:lol: :laugh:

You? Are a doofus. But a funny one.

[DrummerDeanna]

Oh - and I meant to add - that although you don't have the right to marry now - perhaps you can continue the fight to make it happen - and I think one day it will happen :nod:

[sodascouts]

I believe the threads took place back in Septmber/October, so if you keep going back in the pages, you should be able to find them :woohoo:

OK, I found it using the world "Journalism." So for all who are interested, here it is:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=16995&highlight=journalism

[The Tower]

I'm gay and I oppose marriage in all its forms. Why on earth would anyone want the government/legal system that much control over their life? However, opposition does not equate limitation. If consensual people want to get married, regardless of orientation- go for it.

Dissie already said it, but I'll say it my way- the heterosexuals that want to deny gays the right to marry are only doing so because of fear, hatred and/or bigotry. That is a plain and simple fact. In case anyone doesn't know the meaning of the word, here it is:

big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I have yet to see any reasons for denying gays the right to marry that are not related to fear, hatred and/or bigotry. Neither did the Massachusetts Supreme Court- and that's why they made the decision to legalize gay marriage.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Oh - and I meant to add - that although you don't have the right to marry now - perhaps you can continue the fight to make it happen - and I think one day it will happen :nod:


I think so, too. The Black movement gives me that hope. They have come a long way.

[DrummerDeanna]

I think so, too. The Black movement gives me that hope. They have come a long way.

exactly :nod:

[sodascouts]

big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.



Hmm. Seems the definitive quality of "bigot" is intolerance, not religion. And I would think that would be what you would highlight.

[Johnny Stew]

Just a quick comment on the article in the initial post... and maybe this has already been stated (I haven't read the entire thread yet)... those who felt Dan Rather should have been fired for lying, should want the same fate to befall George W.

In fact, I'd say what the latter did, was worse than what the former did, as the former didn't cause the deaths of thousands of American men and women with HIS lie. :shrug:

[The Tower]

Hmm. Seems the definitive quality of "bigot" is intolerance, not religion. And I would think that would be what you would highlight.

My emphasis was merely to point out that those who think that religious beliefs are an acceptable reason to deny loving, consensual adults the right to marry qualify as bigots. One does not have to hate to be a bigot, nor does intolerance equal hatred.

[The Tower]

In fact, I'd say what the latter did, was worse than what the former did, as the former didn't cause the deaths of thousands of American men and women with HIS lie. :shrug:

I won't rationalize or apologize for Rather's behavior. He's a prick and he did so much damage to the credibility of those trying to get rid of that scuzz Dubya. Lies are lies are lies.

[sodascouts]

OK, I found it using the world "Journalism." So for all who are interested, here it is:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=16995&highlight=journalism

Oops, that thread doesn't really say much about the original story, after all - but I've got to go to Latin class soon and don't have time to do much more searching! I've tried several terms to no avail, though. Seems like a new thread on this topic wasn't such a bad idea after all, if the old one is impossible to find.

[Johnny Stew]

I'm gay and I oppose marriage in all its forms. Why on earth would anyone want the government/legal system that much control over their life? However, opposition does not equate limitation. If consensual people want to get married, regardless of orientation- go for it.

It's not a matter of wanting or letting the government and its legal system have control over our lives... it's a matter of us not having very important rights when we need them.

God forbid anyone here has a same-sex partner who's dying, because you're sure not going to have any legal recourse if your partner's family decides to block you from hospital visits, etc.

And if you have an adopted child, only ONE of you can be listed as that child's parent. If your partner dies, you have no legal recourse if your partner's family wishes to deny you full or even partial custody of your child.

Marriage is one of MANY rights we're fighting for, so that we have the same health insurance, financial and spousal benefits that straight couples have, without having to spend thousands of dollars in court fees in order to have our relationship recognized in some way that will appease insurance companies, etc. If you're even able to convince the court to grant you that.

[Johnny Stew]

I won't rationalize or apologize for Rather's behavior. He's a prick and he did so much damage to the credibility of those trying to get rid of that scuzz Dubya. Lies are lies are lies.

He made a terrible mistake, but he is not the first, nor will he be the last, journalist to report an erroneous story.

The Bush Administration and the Conservative Party were just pissed because they didn't have Rather on their payroll, like they had Armstrong Williams.

[ontheEdgeof17]

God forbid anyone here has a same-sex partner who's dying, because you're sure not going to have any legal recourse if your partner's family decides to block you from hospital visits, etc.



Now, this part is not true. The dying partner can legalize to have his/her companion at the bedside and the family has no say. I've had Death and Dying class. It can be done.

[Johnny Stew]

Now, this part is not true. The dying partner can legalize to have his/her companion at the bedside and the family has no say. I've had Death and Dying class. It can be done.

It can be done... if you're prepared for it. But not everyone is that prepared... even those with terminal illnesses.

Plus, it's a pity that ANYONE, gay or straight, should have to worry about the legalty of their mate visiting them in the hospital as they lay there dying. It's also a pity that they'd have to expend further emotional and physical energy on legal matters.
And If their relationship was already recognized by the government (local or federal), like STRAIGHT marriages are, they wouldn't have to.

[ontheEdgeof17]

And If their relationship was already recognized by the government (local or federal), like STRAIGHT marriages are, they wouldn't have to.


Not true. Heterosexuals have more problems with this than homosexuals. With homosexuals that are in the hospitals, they (some) are already disassociated with their families, or their families live miles and miles away. Heterosexual families live closer and have bigger families....more offspring, etc. I cannot cont how many times I see people fighting in the hospital, next to the patient. We have had to ban them all. Since there was no legal document, we had the right to do so. People are not educated on living wills/MPOA/AD....that's the problem...gay or straight.

[irishgrl]

Ann Coulter is the female equivalent of Rush Limbaugh (who as far as I am concerned is a walking whoopie cushion) and in each of these cases, and similar ones, These commentators put this kind of thing out there to get a reaction. They may not even buy into everything they are spouting but they get a charge out of riling up the liberals. To me, that completely erases ANY credibility that they might have had, even if they did have facts to work with (which I have yet to see). The fact that Brown Eyes says she agrees with Ann (I think Brown Eyes is a girl) and the fact that she is posting inflammatory articles on this board, an obvious LIBERAL board, indicates to ME that this is more than an innocent posting of another view. I think, if you are conservative, and you wish to put forth a Conservative viewpoint, then please, for credibility's sake: choose commentators who are respectable: Colin Powell, Senator McCain and the like. Its just as easy to get your news and information from credible sources as it is from crackpots like Limbaugh, Hannity or Coulter.

Brown Eyes, if you're honest and you take another look at a few of the things you've said, even though you didnt MEAN to offend, your viewpoints sounded very judgemental and you come off sounding morally superior with all your talk of Christianity. MY view of Christ is a person who accepted the societal outcasts--and viewed the establishment with disfavor. I wonder how much of today's version of "Christianity" he would approve of?

[Serrart]

No...I am an honest Fleetwood Mac fan! lol

I just got started when reading some very liberal post here...so I felt the need to say something...why keep my mouth shut.

I'm not even American so probably I should keep my mouth shut, but I can't as usual :p . I' d find much more interesting to read your personal opinions than Ann Coulter's.

Romy

[Johnny Stew]

Not true. Heterosexuals have more problems with this than homosexuals. With homosexuals that are in the hospitals, they (some) are already disassociated with their families, or their families live miles and miles away. Heterosexual families live closer and have bigger families....more offspring, etc. I cannot cont how many times I see people fighting in the hospital, next to the patient. We have had to ban them all. Since there was no legal document, we had the right to do so. People are not educated on living wills/MPOA/AD....that's the problem...gay or straight.

My mother works in the funeral business... I know all about the in-fighting between families, live-in companions, ex-spouses, estranged children, etc., that can happen.

That's a very sad fact of life, and I'm not saying it NEVER happens to straight people.
If you're not a blood relative or the current legal spouse of the patient, you have no recourse if the family chooses to block you from visiting (without the patient having taken steps prior to their hospitalization to insure that you'll be by their side)... gay or straight.

BUT, if a wife's family tried to block her husband of 30 years from visiting her in the hospital, it wouldn't fly. He has just as much legal right to visit her, as her blood relatives do. (Though certainly the HOSPITAL has the right to block them all, if they're being disorderly and if their disruptions are preventing the physician and nurses to properly care for the patient.)

However, if a gay man's family tried to block his same-gender mate of 30 years from visiting him (again, with no prior legal action taken by the patient to insure the partner's presence), then the partner is out of luck, period... at least without some major court battle. And by that time, it's usually too late.

Also, without prior legal steps having been taken, the family is free to do what they want in regards to funeral arrangements, etc. The same-sex partner has no rights and no say there either.

I'm not saying it can't happen to ANYONE, gay or straight, but it's definitely a circumstance where there are rights that are inherent to a hetereosexual spouse, and not to a same-gender mate.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And I disagree. The youth of this country is incredibly tolerant to gay men and women and, based on national polls, they support gay marriage by over 50%. That munber will only grow in the future and when they get the chance to vote on the issue, their voices will be heard. Being a Christian does not automatically make you anti-gay marriage.

Id be careful about what polls you buy into...

last polls that I looked at were the polls last novemeber that showed John Kerry winning the Presidential race by a landslide!

I know alot more younger people my age against gay marriage than for it!

[dissention]

I know alot more younger people my age against gay marriage than for it!

Yeah, and where do you currently live?

[greatdarkwing]

I have been away for a while...

Good to see more fellow Republicans are emerging :)

Hello Brwn_eyes0511, Im Alex, just wanted to welcome you to Liberal Country U.S.A aka the Chit Chat forum of The Ledge. :laugh: The regime dictator here is Dissention...be careful...hes a tricky one ;) :laugh:

~Alex

:wavey: Dissention

[dissention]

I have been away for a while...

Good to see more fellow Republicans are emerging :)

Hello Brwn_eyes0511, Im Alex, just wanted to welcome you to Liberal Country U.S.A aka the Chit Chat forum of The Ledge. :laugh: The regime dictator here is Dissention...be careful...hes a tricky one ;) :laugh:

~Alex

:wavey: Dissention

Oh, Alex, this one is too conservative even for you. :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ann Coulter is the female equivalent of Rush Limbaugh (who as far as I am concerned is a walking whoopie cushion) and in each of these cases, and similar ones, These commentators put this kind of thing out there to get a reaction. They may not even buy into everything they are spouting but they get a charge out of riling up the liberals. To me, that completely erases ANY credibility that they might have had, even if they did have facts to work with (which I have yet to see). The fact that Brown Eyes says she agrees with Ann (I think Brown Eyes is a girl) and the fact that she is posting inflammatory articles on this board, an obvious LIBERAL board, indicates to ME that this is more than an innocent posting of another view. I think, if you are conservative, and you wish to put forth a Conservative viewpoint, then please, for credibility's sake: choose commentators who are respectable: Colin Powell, Senator McCain and the like. Its just as easy to get your news and information from credible sources as it is from crackpots like Limbaugh, Hannity or Coulter.

Brown Eyes, if you're honest and you take another look at a few of the things you've said, even though you didnt MEAN to offend, your viewpoints sounded very judgemental and you come off sounding morally superior with all your talk of Christianity. MY view of Christ is a person who accepted the societal outcasts--and viewed the establishment with disfavor. I wonder how much of today's version of "Christianity" he would approve of?

I am a guy.

And I have already said that I was sorry for the way I may have worded things and that I didn't mean to offend anyone.

But I also REFUSE to deny and apologize for what I as an American believe it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I have been away for a while...

Good to see more fellow Republicans are emerging :)

Hello Brwn_eyes0511, Im Alex, just wanted to welcome you to Liberal Country U.S.A aka the Chit Chat forum of The Ledge. :laugh: The regime dictator here is Dissention...be careful...hes a tricky one ;) :laugh:

~Alex

:wavey: Dissention

Thank you so much. Glad to see I have a fellow conservative on board! lol.

Thank you for the welcome and dissention has already welcomed me...in his on way! :laugh:

[ontheEdgeof17]

My mother works in the funeral business... I know all about the in-fighting between families, live-in companions, ex-spouses, estranged children, etc., that can happen.

That's a very sad fact of life, and I'm not saying it NEVER happens to straight people.
If you're not a blood relative or the current legal spouse of the patient, you have no recourse if the family chooses to block you from visiting (without the patient having taken steps prior to their hospitalization to insure that you'll be by their side)... gay or straight.

BUT, if a wife's family tried to block her husband of 30 years from visiting her in the hospital, it wouldn't fly. He has just as much legal right to visit her, as her blood relatives do. (Though certainly the HOSPITAL has the right to block them all, if they're being disorderly and if their disruptions are preventing the physician and nurses to properly care for the patient.)

However, if a gay man's family tried to block his same-gender mate of 30 years from visiting him (again, with no prior legal action taken by the patient to insure the partner's presence), then the partner is out of luck, period... at least without some major court battle. And by that time, it's usually too late.

Also, without prior legal steps having been taken, the family is free to do what they want in regards to funeral arrangements, etc. The same-sex partner has no rights and no say there either.

I'm not saying it can't happen to ANYONE, gay or straight, but it's definitely a circumstance where there are rights that are inherent to a hetereosexual spouse, and not to a same-gender mate.

You are just saying the same thing over and over. :shrug: Just have legal documentation. Period. There's no gay/straight issue there.

I'm beginning to get upset with all this "I'm gay so I can't do it" bull****. If you are not intelligent enough to cover your ass.....

[Johnny Stew]

Id be careful about what polls you buy into...

last polls that I looked at were the polls last novemeber that showed John Kerry winning the Presidential race by a landslide!

I know alot more younger people my age against gay marriage than for it!

There will always be those who "morally object" to homosexuality and/or gay marriages.
The continued existence of the Ku Klux Klan is certainly proof that even when a minority group makes major progress in this country, there will still always be those who hate and oppose them. (And need I remind anyone that the K.K.K. uses the bible to excuse and explain their intolerance and hatred too.)

But in talking with my younger friends, and with my teenaged cousins, I can definitely see that the younger generations have, by and large, a more open-minded opinion of homosexuality.
In fact, my 16 year old cousin's best friend is an openly gay male in the same high school that I attended.
I was ostracized, harrassed, verbally and physically abused just for being THOUGHT to be gay when I attended that school. 15+ years later, a kid is able to be openly gay there. And of course I'm sure he encounters his share of homophobia, but the very fact that he can even BE openly gay in that high school, is a HUGE example of progress.

[dissention]

choose commentators who are respectable: Colin Powell, Senator McCain and the like.

When did those two lap dogs cross over into respectability? :confused:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yeah, and where do you currently live?

I live in North Carolina...

well I know what you are going to say now (bible belt south)! So...

But there are just more red states than blue! and hell, if you actually look at the map which colored by Counties and districts...you will see that there is hardley a blue spot even on the map!

[DrummerDeanna]

I live in North Carolina...

well I know what you are going to say now (bible belt south)! So...

But there are just more red states than blue! and hell, if you actually look at the map which colored by Counties and districts...you will see that there is hardley a blue spot even on the map!

That explains it :rolleyes:

[dissention]

I live in North Carolina...

well I know what you are going to say now (bible belt south)! So...

Exactly. Did you think I'd be surprised that Bible Central is chock full of kids who don't like gays? C'mon.

But there are just more red states than blue! and hell, if you actually look at the map which colored by Counties and districts...you will see that there is hardley a blue spot even on the map!

C'mon. Why do you think red states have so few electoral votes when compared to blue states?

[SuzeQuze]

That explains it :rolleyes:

Diss, wanna resurrect "the map"? :laugh:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

There will always be those who "morally object" to homosexuality and/or gay marriages.
The continued existence of the Ku Klux Klan is certainly proof that even when a minority group makes major progress in this country, there will still always be those who hate and oppose them. (And need I remind anyone that the K.K.K. uses the bible to excuse and explain their intolerance and hatred too.)

But in talking with my younger friends, and with my teenaged cousins, I can definitely see that the younger generations have, by and large, a more open-minded opinion of homosexuality.
In fact, my 16 year old cousin's best friend is an openly gay male in the same high school that I attended.
I was ostracized, harrassed, verbally and physically abused just for being THOUGHT to be gay when I attended that school. 15+ years later, a kid is able to be openly gay there. And of course I'm sure he encounters his share of homophobia, but the very fact that he can even BE openly gay in that high school, is a HUGE example of progress.

The KKK is an insane group which is not even worthy of comparison to christians who don't support gay marriage. KKK is based soley on HATE! No one race is better than the other. Neither to is one human being better than another (straight or gay) BUT...the sanctity of marriage, for christians (the majority of this country), has and always will be between a man and a woman a special union for a man and a woman as God intended it. That doesnt mean that I think any less of gay people AS human beings.

[dissention]

Diss, wanna resurrect "the map"? :laugh:

Jesusland and the United States of Canada? :laugh: I just might have to because I'm beginning to be just as ashamed of this country as Curtis.

[dissention]

That doesnt mean that I think any less of gay people AS human beings.

But they're not worthy enough to have the same rights. Right?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Diss, wanna resurrect "the map"? :laugh:

Com'on now you have to "the map" don't lie!!! :)

It paints a clear picture in Red and a slight touch of Blue.

[greatdarkwing]

OK...This thread is getting too heated even for the Floridian over here.

Brwn_eyes0511 be careful. The issue of religion/Homosexuality hits alot of nerves on this board.

I have made MANY gay friends on these boards, and as to not upset friendships in any way, I do not discuss that subject any more on these boards.

~Alex

[DrummerDeanna]

The KKK is an insane group which is not even worthy of comparison to christians who don't support gay marriage. KKK is based soley on HATE! No one race is better than the other. Neither to is one human being better than another (straight or gay) BUT...the sanctity of marriage, for christians (the majority of this country), has and always will be between a man and a woman a special union for a man and a woman as God intended it. That doesnt mean that I think any less of gay people AS human beings.

Um - yeah - I've met many an Evengelical Christian who is no less full of hate than a KKK member - ALL in the guise of religion - good to know you're not that extreme - but that's how it's becoming :nod:

It upsets me - the crap that's carried out in God's name....it's disgusting.

I need blood pressure medication :laugh:

[Sugar]

BUT...the sanctity of marriage, for christians (the majority of this country), has and always will be between a man and a woman a special union for a man and a woman as God intended it.

Who cares what Christians think? We're talking about a legal definition. Most gays aren't fighting to walk down the aisle in a Catholic church...

[dissention]

It paints a clear picture in Red and a slight touch of Blue.

Put down those hash brownies, dude. Get yourself a map and then figure out the electoral votes. Ever wonder why blue states have more electoral votes than red states?

[ontheEdgeof17]

BUT...the sanctity of marriage, for christians (the majority of this country), has and always will be between a man and a woman a special union for a man and a woman as God intended it.

....Atheist get married. Even though they don't believe in God it is okay because it is a man and woman?

[irishgrl]

Id be careful about what polls you buy into...

last polls that I looked at were the polls last novemeber that showed John Kerry winning the Presidential race by a landslide

Yes. those were EXIT polls, taken as voters emerged from voting booths.
you need to read an article I posted by a statistician that showed Kerry should have won. You also need to look at a few older posts detailing the systematic tampering with E-voting machines, the degradation of voting procedures, the shameful interference with access, the bullying the lack of machines in democratic precincts, and on and on and on.
Kerry should have won. and the Democratic party missed a golden oppourtunity to shine the harsh light of truth on Republican shenanigans. I am ashamed of the collective cowardice (except for Barbara Boxer et al)
but I am even MORE appalled at the depths to which the Republican party will stoop to further its slimy agenda.

[Johnny Stew]

You are just saying the same thing over and over. :shrug: Just have legal documentation. Period. There's no gay/straight issue there.

I'm beginning to get upset with all this "I'm gay so I can't do it" bull****. If you are not intelligent enough to cover your ass.....

:laugh:

Sheesh, Curtis, are you saying that someone should be punished for not being wise enough to cover their ass in case of a medical emergency?
In their 20s and 30s, how many people seriously realize the need to cover all legal bases to prepare for a potential medical emergency? Many people don't think of these things even into their 50s!

I'm not saying it's not unwise to be unprepared, I'm just pointing out the double-standard in the legal system, which, in MOST cases, has built-in legal protection for heterosexual spouses, but absolutely no built-in protection for same-sex mates.

EQUAL rights, is all I'm asking. Not special treatment.

And I honest to God hope that you're always one step ahead of everything, and always anticipate every single obstacle you might encounter in life, because I really would hate to see you, or anyone, caught unprepared for something they had never even anticipated.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Jesusland and the United States of Canada? :laugh: I just might have to because I'm beginning to be just as ashamed of this country as Curtis.


Welcome aboard! :wavey: How things have changed! I used to love this place. 4 years can make a huge difference. :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

OK...This thread is getting too heated even for the Floridian over here.

Brwn_eyes0511 be careful. The issue of religion/Homosexuality hits alot of nerves on this board.

I have made MANY gay friends on these boards, and as to not upset friendships in any way, I do not discuss that subject any more on these boards.

~Alex

I know, we have already talked about this. And I'm trying to aviod it as well! I would really like to get back onto the topic of the column...Mr. Dan Rather and the "wonderful" C-BS! :)

[dissention]

....Atheist get married. Even though they don't believe in God it is okay because it is a man and woman?

Good point, but don't forget that people who cannot birth children also marry. I hope they don't have wild sex on their wedding night because sex is for procreation purposes only, according to the good book.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Welcome aboard! :wavey: How things have changed! I used to love this place. 4 years can make a huge difference. :rolleyes:

I have news for you, 4 years ago gay marriages were just as sparse as they are now. You can't blame the voice of America on one leader!

[irishgrl]

When did those two lap dogs cross over into respectability?
Remember, I am talking about the Republican party here! :laugh: :p :rolleyes:

You are more than welcome to insert any Republicans you feel are respectable, my point was, lets not use the likes of shock talk garbage-mongers such as Hannity, Limbaugh and Coulter

but you knew that! you're just being a butt :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yes. those were EXIT polls, taken as voters emerged from voting booths.
you need to read an article I posted by a statistician that showed Kerry should have won. You also need to look at a few older posts detailing the systematic tampering with E-voting machines, the degradation of voting procedures, the shameful interference with access, the bullying the lack of machines in democratic precincts, and on and on and on.
Kerry should have won. and the Democratic party missed a golden oppourtunity to shine the harsh light of truth on Republican shenanigans. I am ashamed of the collective cowardice (except for Barbara Boxer et al)
but I am even MORE appalled at the depths to which the Republican party will stoop to further its slimy agenda.

But see, if John Kerry would have one you would not be "crying" over this supposed injustice. What has happened in America where people just can't admitt...hey...your team lost!

[SuzeQuze]

Com'on now you have to "the map" don't lie!!! :)

It paints a clear picture in Red and a slight touch of Blue.

Yeah, you'll see it if Diss pulls it out. It shows the gaping hole in the middle of America that the coasties do not understand at all.

[Johnny Stew]

The KKK is an insane group which is not even worthy of comparison to christians who don't support gay marriage. KKK is based soley on HATE! No one race is better than the other. Neither to is one human being better than another (straight or gay) BUT...the sanctity of marriage, for christians (the majority of this country), has and always will be between a man and a woman a special union for a man and a woman as God intended it. That doesnt mean that I think any less of gay people AS human beings.

I love people who tell me they don't think any less of me because I'm gay... so long as I don't have the same rights they do.

I think I prefer it when folks just plain hate me all around... at least I know where I stand with them.

[DrummerDeanna]

But see, if John Kerry would have one you would not be "crying" over this supposed injustice. What has happened in America where people just can't admitt...hey...your team lost!

No - we wouldn't be "crying" because that means that things would have gone as they were supposed to with no tampering or unfair practices...try and keep up will ya?

[ontheEdgeof17]

:laugh:

Sheesh, Curtis, are you saying that someone should be punished for not being wise enough to cover their ass in case of a medical emergency?
In their 20s and 30s, how many people seriously realize the need to cover all legal bases to prepare for a potential medical emergency? Many people don't think of these things even into their 50s!

Hence, the importance of a good education. No one knows about. It should be included at some point in the cirriculum.


EQUAL rights, is all I'm asking. Not special treatment.

The problem is we are saying, "We want equal rights, like heterosexuals do." We should be saying, "We want equal rights because we are Americans." For me, that's a difference. We are separating ourselves out...which makes us look like we want special treatment. IMO.

And I honest to God hope that you're always one step ahead of everything, and always anticipate every single obstacle you might encounter in life, because I really would hate to see you, or anyone, caught unprepared for something they had never even anticipated.

The only people in my life of that high of importance at this moment are my parents. If/when the need arises for a partner to be included, he sure will be.

[dissention]

Remember, I am talking about the Republican party here! :laugh: :p :rolleyes:

You are more than welcome to insert any Republicans you feel are respectable, my point was, lets not use the likes of shock talk garbage-mongers such as Hannity, Limbaugh and Coulter

but you knew that! you're just being a butt :nod:

The only respectable Republicans are Olympia Snowe and Gerald Ford. All others are slime. :nod:

[DrummerDeanna]

I love people who tell me they don't think any less of me because I'm gay... so long as I don't have the same rights they do.

I think I prefer it when folks just plain hate me all around... at least I know where I stand with them.

Or the Catholic view of - it's okay if you're gay- you just can't ACT on it :rolleyes:

[GypsySorcerer]

I live in North Carolina...

well I know what you are going to say now (bible belt south)! So...

But there are just more red states than blue! and hell, if you actually look at the map which colored by Counties and districts...you will see that there is hardley a blue spot even on the map!

It has nothing to do wth states. It's a rural/urban divide.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No - we wouldn't be "crying" because that means that things would have gone as they were supposed to with no tampering or unfair practices...try and keep up will ya?

:rolleyes: I really can't say anything to this because of course when the liberals lose..."tampering" has gone on. And this is going to be something constant from now on in America...when any Republican wins, it was by cheating.

[DrummerDeanna]

The only respectable Republicans are Olympia Snowe and Gerald Ford. All others are slime. :nod:

Come on - Nancy's vey nice ;)

[ontheEdgeof17]

I have news for you, 4 years ago gay marriages were just as sparse as they are now. You can't blame the voice of America on one leader!


I can blame him for trying to ban them. 4 years ago, 'banning' was not thought about. Now, it seems like so-called Christianity has taken the place of law.

[DrummerDeanna]

I can blame him for trying to ban them. 4 years ago, 'banning' was not thought about. Now, it seems like so-called Christianity has taken the place of law.

And the so-called "Majority" sees nothing wrong with that...it's gross

[Johnny Stew]

I have news for you, 4 years ago gay marriages were just as sparse as they are now. You can't blame the voice of America on one leader!

There was a time when the "Voice Of America" also dictated that African Americans had to sit in the back of the bus, and were to carry themselves as second-class citizens.

There was also a time when the "Voice Of America" dictated that women didn't have the right to vote.

Sometimes the "Voice Of America" should shut its unenlightened trap.

[dissention]

It has nothing to do wth states. It's a rural/urban divide.

Exactly. Come up to Boston or New York and you'd get kicked all the way back to North Carolina if you start spouting your conservative "beliefs."

[DrummerDeanna]

There was a time when the "Voice Of America" also dictated that African Americans had to sit in the back of the bus, and were to carry themselves as second-class citizens.

There was also a time when the "Voice Of America" dictated that women didn't have the right to vote.

Sometimes the "Voice Of America" should shut its unenlightened trap.

:xoxo: well said :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Exactly. Come up to Boston or New York and you'd get kicked all the way back to North Carolina if you start spouting your conservative "beliefs."

I know that, btw, I have been to NYC and rather enjoyed myself. But a liberal state and city it sure is! But don't underestimate the republicans there. Question? If NYC is so liberal why do republican mayors keep getting elected.

And besides how can the place not be liberal with a trash fest "news" paper like NYT circulating everywhere!

[SuzeQuze]

But see, if John Kerry would have one you would not be "crying" over this supposed injustice. What has happened in America where people just can't admitt...hey...your team lost!

Again, this is a hateful message with no basis in fact. We are not "crying" because we're whiny but because there was widespread fraud in Ohio and Florida. Democratic precincts did not have enough machines, in some precincts minorites waited over 6 hours to vote. There were no such problems in Republican precincts. There were precincts that had more votes for Bush than registered voters, which is impossible. In all cases of irregularities Bush was favored. Quite a few people reported that their vote for Kerry disappeared on the touch screen after they tried to vote. Etc, etc. The mainstream media won't touch the story for fear of ridicule and not getting their paychecks. The corporations that own them are Bush cronies.

[GypsySorcerer]

I know that, btw, I have been to NYC and rather enjoyed myself. But a liberal state and city it sure is! But don't underestimate the republicans there. Question? If NYC is so liberal why do republican mayors keep getting elected.

And besides how can the place not be liberal with a trash fest "news" paper like NYT circulating everywhere!

Bloomberg isn't a Republican, don't kid yourself. Besides, NE Republicans are somewhat different than those found in the south.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I can blame him for trying to ban them. 4 years ago, 'banning' was not thought about. Now, it seems like so-called Christianity has taken the place of law.

He actually had "balls" (imagine a president who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in) to want to define what exactly marriage was....1man+1woman. Not really to BAN gay marriage, but to define marriage between a man and a woman.

[Johnny Stew]

The problem is we are saying, "We want equal rights, like heterosexuals do." We should be saying, "We want equal rights because we are Americans." For me, that's a difference. We are separating ourselves out...which makes us look like we want special treatment. IMO.

I don't disagree with you. Unfortunately though, a minority cannot fight for equal rights, without having to highlight the reason they're denied those rights in the first place.

It's a double-edged sword... we can't get ourselves included without enlightening people as to why we shouldn't be excluded.

And, yes, the reason we should have equal rights in this country is because we're all human beings and we're all AMERICANS.
But too often the response is that we can't have those rights, because we're gay.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Bloomberg isn't a Republican, don't kid yourself. Besides, NE Republicans are somewhat different than those found in the south.

yes the former mayor of NYC is a great republican, he is just not pro-life. But on almost everything else he stands firm and supports the Bush administration. So how did someone like him get elected in NYC.

[SuzeQuze]

He actually had "balls" (imagine a president who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in) to want to define what exactly marriage was....1man+1woman. Not really to BAN gay marriage, but to define marriage between a man and a woman.

rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric :rolleyes:

[Sugar]

He actually had "balls" (imagine a president who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in) to want to define what exactly marriage was....1man+1woman. Not really to BAN gay marriage, but to define marriage between a man and a woman.

And why is this a good thing?

[GypsySorcerer]

He actually had "balls" (imagine a president who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in) to want to define what exactly marriage was....1man+1woman. Not really to BAN gay marriage, but to define marriage between a man and a woman.

The problem is that you're not realizing that he is using religious beliefs to admend the Constitution. That is unconstitutional.

[DrummerDeanna]

He actually had "balls" (imagine a president who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in) to want to define what exactly marriage was....1man+1woman. Not really to BAN gay marriage, but to define marriage between a man and a woman.

Um - no that's a fluffy way of saying he wants to BAN gay marriage....:shrug:

Also - great he has beliefs...he doesn't live by them - he's all talk - AND as it's been stated over and over - there is NO PLACE for his religion in law...plain and simple. What are you not understanding about that??

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Again, this is a hateful message with no basis in fact. We are not "crying" because we're whiny but because there was widespread fraud in Ohio and Florida. Democratic precincts did not have enough machines, in some precincts minorites waited over 6 hours to vote. There were no such problems in Republican precincts. There were precincts that had more votes for Bush than registered voters, which is impossible. In all cases of irregularities Bush was favored. Quite a few people reported that their vote for Kerry disappeared on the touch screen after they tried to vote. Etc, etc. The mainstream media won't touch the story for fear of ridicule and not getting their paychecks. The corporations that own them are Bush cronies.

I see that as a bunch of liberal bs...(no offense to you...its not directed at you) but thats all it is...liberal fabrications. and note...most TV stations want touch the story because they know that its just insanity, not because of fear of losing their jobs...that didn't stop Mr. Rather and his staff at C-BS.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Um - no that's a fluffy way of saying he wants to BAN gay marriage....:shrug:

Also - great he has beliefs...he doesn't live by them - he's all talk - AND as it's been stated over and over - there is NO PLACE for his religion in law...plain and simple. What are you not understanding about that??

Well, really its not about religon. Its about reaffirming what the majority of Americans view as marriage.

[SuzeQuze]

I see that as a bunch of liberal bs...(no offense to you...its not directed at you) but thats all it is...liberal fabrications. and note...most TV stations want touch the story because they know that its just insanity, not because of fear of losing their jobs...that didn't stop Mr. Rather and his staff at C-BS.

It is true. :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The problem is that you're not realizing that he is using religious beliefs to admend the Constitution. That is unconstitutional.

No one HAS to mend the constitutioin to affirm what the definition of marriage is.

[Sugar]

Well, really its not about religon. Its about reaffirming what the majority of Americans view as marriage.

And what if the majority are wrong because they are basing their opinion soley on religion?

[Johnny Stew]

No one HAS to mend the constitutioin to affirm what the definition of marriage is.

Then why are they attempting to do just that?

[DrummerDeanna]

Well, really its not about religon. Its about reaffirming what the majority of Americans view as marriage.

that's bullsh**t - because it's all based on religion. HE's NOT concerned with what the majority of America thinks - and if you think he is - you're even more delusional than I already think you are :rolleyes:

Give me ONE good reason WHY marriage should be limited to 1 man 1 woman - that is NOT based in religion....just one...come on...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It is true. :nod:

and suddenly my eyes are opened and I see the great big light that says...Kerry really won. :rolleyes: