Liar, Liar, Now You're Fired

[GypsySorcerer]

Well, really its not about religon. Its about reaffirming what the majority of Americans view as marriage.

As has been said 100s of times, majority opinion is not always right. (slavery, civil rights, women's rights, Native American policy)

[Sugar]

and suddenly my eyes are opened and I see the great big light that says...Kerry really won. :rolleyes:

Mean and uncalled for.

Gee, I can't imagine why people are nasty to you...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And what if the majority are wrong because they are basing their opinion soley on religion?

You can't say that we are WRONG. Amerian's have beliefs that tie into how they view the country should be ruled.

[Sugar]

You can't say that we are WRONG. Amerian's have beliefs that tie into how they view the country should be ruled.

I most certainly can...this is America and I can say what I please...

So does each religion have the power to legislate if they are the majority?

Should the legislature of Utah be able to legalize poligamy?

[DrummerDeanna]

You can't say that we are WRONG. Amerian's have beliefs that tie into how they view the country should be ruled.

I sure as hell can say they're WRONG - because there is an amendment which SEPARATES religion and government..

Seriously dude - take some sort of reading comprehension class - you're not getting it...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Mean and uncalled for.

Gee, I can't imagine why people are nasty to you...

Why is that mean and uncalled for when I get the same snotty remarks from everyone else. What? Im just suppose to except it as jokes, but when I try to be sarcastic and poke fun...its mean and hateful. Where are my two conservy friends who had my back a while back! What goes on in these fourms sometimes is complete hypocrisy...because I'm an "outsider" I am not allowed to make sarcastic remarks like the rest. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y

[Johnny Stew]

The KKK is an insane group which is not even worthy of comparison to christians who don't support gay marriage. KKK is based soley on HATE! No one race is better than the other. Neither to is one human being better than another (straight or gay) BUT...the sanctity of marriage, for christians (the majority of this country), has and always will be between a man and a woman a special union for a man and a woman as God intended it. That doesnt mean that I think any less of gay people AS human beings.

Oh, and in case my point was missed... yes, I know the K.K.K. is an insane group whose views and opinions are based on hate, however, the fact remains that they use the bible to justify that hate by pointing out passages which they believe confirm that whites are superior to blacks.

ANYONE can point to something in the bible to excuse a particularly intolerant view. But simply because it's "in the bible," it doesn't make it any less wrong.

[Sugar]

Why is that mean and uncalled for when I get the same snotty remarks from everyone else. What? Im just suppose to except it as jokes, but when I try to be sarcastic and poke fun...its mean and hateful. Where are my two conservy friends who had my back a while back! What goes on in these fourms sometimes is complete hypocrisy...because I'm an "outsider" I am not allowed to make sarcastic remarks like the rest. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y

She was not being mean...she was trying to explain that there are issues about voting...she simply said "It is true." What was snotty about that?

[SuzeQuze]

and suddenly my eyes are opened and I see the great big light that says...Kerry really won. :rolleyes:

I never said that. I said there was election fraud.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

She was not being mean...she was trying to explain that there are issues about voting...she simply said "It is true." What was snotty about that?

I thought the "she" was you.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I never said that. I said there was election fraud.

and lets say that there was election fraud. why is there a blanket statement that must be made to say that ALL conservies were in on it! If some completley crazy radical person wanted to hijack the voting...they were dead wrong and shouldn't have done it...but after counting and recounting and taking some of Bush's votes AWAY in Ohio...they still proved that he was indeed the winner, even if by a smaller gap.

[SuzeQuze]

I thought the "she" was you.

Now Sugar and I are the same person! :D

[SuzeQuze]

and lets say that there was election fraud. why is there a blanket statement that must be made to say that ALL conservies were in on it! If some completley crazy radical person wanted to hijack the voting...they were dead wrong and shouldn't have done it...but after counting and recounting and taking some of Bush's votes AWAY in Ohio...they still proved that he was indeed the winner, even if by a smaller gap.

I DID NOT SAY THAT ALL CONSERVATIVES WERE IN ON IT!!!!!!! The recount in Ohio was done selectively when it was supposed to be random. They picked certain precincts to get the results they wanted whic is illegal. Problem is, no one will enforce the law because the republicans are in charge.

[Sugar]

Now Sugar and I are the same person! :D

It's all good... :D

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Why is that mean and uncalled for when I get the same snotty remarks from everyone else. What? Im just suppose to except it as jokes, but when I try to be sarcastic and poke fun...its mean and hateful. Where are my two conservy friends who had my back a while back! What goes on in these fourms sometimes is complete hypocrisy...because I'm an "outsider" I am not allowed to make sarcastic remarks like the rest. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-YI’m with you on a few things you have to say. The way you say it is a little overboard but not any worse then I’ve seen others doing since I’ve joined this board. I admire you’re courage to put controversial things out there and deal with this group. :thumbsup: You at least put up a good fight and you certainly have a right to your opinions. :wavey:

[DrummerDeanna]

Yes - everyone has a right to their opinions - it's in the way the are presented. Nancy is a republican - she has been able to voice her views - in a respectful and intellectual manner -and that's the way to have a discussion.

whatever dude - I don't even know why I'm wasting energy on this - luckily one day WE will be victorious and there will be gay marriage...and we'll get someone in the white house who actually knows the difference between his/her job and his/her religion...

[irishgrl]

Its about reaffirming what the majority of Americans view as marriage.
NOBODY has the right to determine what constitutes marriage! What hubris!
I wouldnt tell YOU who YOU should marry or have sex with or what to put in your body or what medical procedures you can/cant have, and you cant tell ME! You are free to believe whatever you wish but when you start foisting your beliefs on ME then brother, the gloves come OFF! :mad:
Last time I checked there was still a separation of Church and State, and a MAJORITY of Americans still support THAT .

Its a sad sad day when ONE religious group thinks they are so superior that they can dictate to people outside their congregation.

[dissention]

I know that, btw, I have been to NYC and rather enjoyed myself. But a liberal state and city it sure is! But don't underestimate the republicans there. Question? If NYC is so liberal why do republican mayors keep getting elected.

And besides how can the place not be liberal with a trash fest "news" paper like NYT circulating everywhere!

Bllomberg isn't a Republican, doll. And all of the Republican mayors tha thave been elected have been rather liberal. Giuliani, for example, favors same sex marriage and supports abortion. As does The Terminator of California. ;)

[dissention]

Yes - everyone has a right to their opinions - it's in the way the are presented. Nancy is a republican - she has been able to voice her views - in a respectful and intellectual manner -and that's the way to have a discussion.

whatever dude - I don't even know why I'm wasting energy on this - luckily one day WE will be victorious and there will be gay marriage...and we'll get someone in the white house who actually knows the difference between his/her job and his/her religion...

Amen, sister. :xoxo:

[thepoetinmyhear]

Bllomberg isn't a Republican, doll. And all of the Republican mayors tha thave been elected have been rather liberal. Giuliani, for example, favors same sex marriage and supports abortion. As does The Terminator of California. ;)

DISCLAIMER
meaning this to be a simple question because I do not know the answer and the answer should in no way reflect any argument being made by me.

Does Romney support same sex marriage and abortion?

Michael

[dissention]

DISCLAIMER
meaning this to be a simple question because I do not know the answer and the answer should in no way reflect any argument being made by me.

Does Romney support same sex marriage and abortion?

Michael

F*ck no! He's a Mormon from Utah! :eek:

And he's on his way out, trust me. There's even been talk of a recall recently. Robert Reich all the way, man!!!!! :thumbsup:

[GateandGarden]

Oh - and I meant to add - that although you don't have the right to marry now - perhaps you can continue the fight to make it happen - and I think one day it will happen :nod:Thank you Deanna. I appreciate it. :xoxo: And you're right--I sometimes place too much importance on it, I must admit.

[The Tower]

Thank you Deanna. I appreciate it. :xoxo: And you're right--I sometimes place too much importance on it, I must admit.

Hillary-

If it helps, I'll tell you some stuff.

I met my partner in September of 1993. I knew when I met him that he was "the one". We've been together now for over eleven years. For all intents and purposes we ARE married, we just don't "have the piece of paper from the City Hall". Yes, we have had ups and downs, great times and hard times. But, we have stuck together and everything that we have feels just as good, if not better, than a conventional marriage- meaning that- we are together because we want to be, not because we are legally bound together.

Years and years ago, we had briefly discussed having the whole "ceremony thing". But, it's not really our kinda thang.

When you meet "the one", you'll know it and it will already start to feel like you're married anyway. You'll be okay, honey. Gay marriage is an inevitability. I promise you, you will see it and experience it in your lifetime.

:xoxo:

[GateandGarden]

Even I don't agree with things he/she says,but you are bullying.
You seem to want it to be all ass-kissing & sweetness here where everyone agrees all the time. That's not reality.For once in my life, I'm tired of debating gay marriage with the same tired phrases, and I just want to address this post further. I really just want to address the last part. I don't know if that comment was directed at me or me and everyone else, but I feel like I should address it. I didn't realize that someone viewed the forum that way, but I guess I'm naive. To me, there isn't an "ass-kissing," at least not by me. :shrug: I didn't think anyone else was doing that, either. That implies that people aren't being sincere, and I want to point out that there are a lot of people on this board that I genuinely care about and would welcome the chance to meet in real life. Unless I'm delusional or think too much of myself (which I think is unlikely) some of those people care about me as well. When we say kind things to each other, I don't see that as "ass-kissing." :shrug: And I never thought everyone should agree all the time, and we don't. There are lots of squabbles. I've argued with people (playfully) over ridiculous things, and I've tried to have serious debates about issues as well. Many times, we are able to maintain our respect and affection for each other, IMO. As someone else said, The Ledge would be boring if we all had the same opinions. It gives us something to talk about. I don't take it well when it turns into someone desiring to make decisions about my life and what I can and can't do with it, but there are myriad other topics to be discussing, and I enjoy our lively debates on here because I've noticed that we can disagree without mean to each other. Take diss and Jason's debates--they can go on for pages and pages and have lots of differing opinions but it's all okay in the end. I love that about this board.

Okay, that was kind of rambling, but I just wanted to say those things.

[GateandGarden]

Hillary-

If it helps, I'll tell you some stuff.

I met my partner in September of 1993. I knew when I met him that he was "the one". We've been together now for over eleven years. For all intents and purposes we ARE married, we just don't "have the piece of paper from the City Hall". Yes, we have had ups and downs, great times and hard times. But, we have stuck together and everything that we have feels just as good, if not better, than a conventional marriage- meaning that- we are together because we want to be, not because we are legally bound together.

Years and years ago, we had briefly discussed having the whole "ceremony thing". But, it's not really our kinda thang.

When you meet "the one", you'll know it and it will already start to feel like you're married anyway. You'll be okay, honey. Gay marriage is an inevitability. I promise you, you will see it and experience it in your lifetime.

:xoxo:How sweet! I am so happy for y'all! Over eleven years is fantastic. :) Thanks for the inspiration.

[sodascouts]

Good point, but don't forget that people who cannot birth children also marry. I hope they don't have wild sex on their wedding night because sex is for procreation purposes only, according to the good book.

What Scripture are you referring to, dissention?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I sure as hell can say they're WRONG - because there is an amendment which SEPARATES religion and government..

Seriously dude - take some sort of reading comprehension class - you're not getting it...

The amendment, which separates religion from government...,IMO has been completely turned and flipped around to suite new liberal ways of thinking. It was original formed because of the STATE interfering with THE CHURCH in England. And this was made an amendment in USA so this very thing would happen...because we have the right to Christian worship not to be influenced by the state. But now in the liberal times we live in...Its been skewed and flipped around backwards.

Point and case is...whether you like it or not our Country was founded on the basic principles of God and the BASIC natural laws that he created. The constitution IS based on biblical beliefs and GOD! Its part of our history and our culture and a major part of our founding fathers. This nation was formed on very Christian values.

ONE NATION UNDER GOD

[jwd]

There may be a lot of liberals who post here, but it is NOT a liberal board. It is a chit chat forum on a Fleetwood Mac message board. Brn Eyes, I like your conviction, and you are entitled to your opinions, just like every other poster here. I think both sides need to be a little more open minded.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

that's bullsh**t - because it's all based on religion. HE's NOT concerned with what the majority of America thinks - and if you think he is - you're even more delusional than I already think you are :rolleyes:

Give me ONE good reason WHY marriage should be limited to 1 man 1 woman - that is NOT based in religion....just one...come on...

Well in all actuality you can't ask someone with religious convictions to take the religion OUT of the equation, because we base are views around God and our firm belief in him.

So, I admit, it is hard to take religion out of the equation and talk about gay marriage. My only thought is of the natural order of life and the core of how we as human beings exist comes from the joining of one man and one woman, creating life and multiplying to populate the world. This is essentially how this unique relationship in marriage works. In same-sex relationships this uniqueness can't be found, it goes against the natural order of life and isn't fruitful. Going back to biblically it makes since when God created Adam and Eve in the Garden...Mans companion in life is a woman and visa versa.

But truly in the end, no one can judge but the almighty creator. And It is not my place to do so. I just have to do the best that I can do to fight for what I believe in, just as you do. I respect and love all, as much as that sounds like "garbage" its all that I know because it's my Christian foundation to strive to be more caring and understanding. ONLY you will be standing there in front of God when your life is complete, and ONLY He will judge you!

[ontheEdgeof17]

What Scripture are you referring to, dissention?


Maybe Leviticus? :shrug: I know that whole section is full of "do and don'ts", but I do not recall it from my knowledge. I don't want to add to the Bible what is not there.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

There may be a lot of liberals who post here, but it is NOT a liberal board. It is a chit chat forum on a Fleetwood Mac message board. Brn Eyes, I like your conviction, and you are entitled to your opinions, just like every other poster here. I think both sides need to be a little more open minded.

Thanks for you honesty and applauding my individualism, just as I applaud everyone here for theirs. God bless more open minds.

[amber]

ONLY you will be standing there in front of God when your life is complete, and ONLY He will judge you!
If you believe this, how can you believe that our gov't should legislate morality? If only god is supposed to judge, then gov't should stay outta everyone's business...let them live with free will. :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

If you believe this, how can you believe that our gov't should legislate morality? If only god is supposed to judge, then gov't should stay outta everyone's business...let them live with free will. :wavey:

Well if you live by that code then murder, rape, etc... can be freely done.

the amendment would just reaffirm that special union that only is shared between one man and one woman, being able to express your love to create another life...to me...it seems to be God's natural order of things, and it really is supported throughout not only the bible, but history.

[irishgrl]

The amendment, which separates religion from government...,IMO has been completely turned and flipped around to suite new liberal ways of thinking. It was original formed because of the STATE interfering with THE CHURCH in England.

Brown eyes: I am going to say this slowly and carefully so you catch it:
If the religious right is successful in imposing THEIR Religious views on the rest of the country, then THEY BECOME THE STATE INTERFERING WITH other Religions. Do you get that? Why do you think that only Christianity is valid?
There are thousands (millions?) of people in this country that ARENT Christian but will have to adhere to "Christian" morals IF you and your ilk have your way.
This is unacceptable and flies in the face of the LANGUAGE of the Second Amendment: Congress shall make NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....
That MEANS, boys and girls (pay attention Brown Eyes) that Congress may not set one religion above another Any attempt to do so is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and The Supreme Court MUST strike it down. That is why the Georgia Schools that put the anti-evolutionary stickers in their biology textbooks had to remove them. That is why that wacko Judge had to remove the 10 Commandments statue from the Courthouse lobby. and on and on and on.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Well if you live by that code then murder, rape, etc... can be freely done.

the amendment would just reaffirm that special union that only is shared between one man and one woman, being able to express your love to create another life...to me...it seems to be God's natural order of things, and it really is supported throughout not only the bible, but history.


There's a gay relationship in the Bible. :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Brown eyes: I am going to say this slowly and carefully so you catch it:
If the religious right is successful in imposing THEIR Religious views on the rest of the country, then THEY BECOME THE STATE INTERFERING WITH other Religions. Do you get that? Why do you think that only Christianity is valid?
There are thousands (millions?) of people in this country that ARENT Christian but will have to adhere to "Christian" morals IF you and your ilk have your way.
This is unacceptable and flies in the face of the LANGUAGE of the Second Amendment: Congress shall make NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....
That MEANS, boys and girls (pay attention Brown Eyes) that Congress may not set one religion above another Any attempt to do so is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and The Supreme Court MUST strike it down. That is why the Georgia Schools that put the anti-evolutionary stickers in their biology textbooks had to remove them. That is why that wacko Judge had to remove the 10 Commandments statue from the Courthouse lobby. and on and on and on.

And I never said they should. I do not argue that. But the fact remains that THIS COUNTRY, LIKE IT OUR NOT, was founded on the basic principles and beliefs of GOD (let me spell it out for you) G-O-D. This country was very much a christian society when it was formed.

That said, I'm not saying that anyone should be FORCED to be anything, but the verification of what "marriage" is can be made an ammedment without it dealing with religion, although most religions object to it!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

There's a gay relationship in the Bible. :shrug:

Im not aware of it. :shrug:

[markolas]

There's a gay relationship in the Bible. :shrug:

Don't you blaspheme in here! Don't you <i>blaspheme</i> in here!! :lol:

[estranged4life]

all this upheavel here in the US as of late has me thinking how prophetical the spoken word intro (Over the music of the song Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath) Megadeth used on their 2004 tour is:


"We interupt this program with a special bulletin,

America is now under marshal law...

All constitutional rights have been suspended

Stay in your homes

Do not attempt to contact loved ones, insurance agents or attorneys

Shut up!

Do not attempt to think or depression may occur

Stay in your homes

Curfew is at 7 PM sharp after work

Anyone caught outside the gate of their subdivision
sectors after curfew will...be...shot

Remain calm

Do not panic

Your neighborhood watch officer will be by to collect urine samples in the morning

Anyone caught interferring with the collection of urine samples will...be...shot

Stay in your homes

Remain calm

The number one enemy of progress is questions

National security is more important than individual will

All sports broadcasts will proceed as normal

No more than two people may gather anywhere without permission

Use only the drugs prescribed by your boss or supervisor

Shut up!

Be happy

Obey all orders without question

The comfort you demanded is now mandatory

Be Happy

At last, Everything is done for you"

Man, that is frighten if ya think about it...I never would want to see that, But I feel in my lifetime WE WILL :shrug:

[GypsySorcerer]

Im not aware of it. :shrug:

David and Jonathan. :wavey:

[irishgrl]

the amendment would just reaffirm that special union that only is shared between one man and one woman, being able to express your love to create another life...to me...it seems to be God's natural order of things, and it really is supported throughout not only the bible, but history

Man are YOU off base! Jacob, the father of Israel had SEVERAL wives, at least two of which were sisters! The Bible REVERES Jacob! and HISTORY IS FULL OF examples of homosexuality, pedophilia, polygamy etc! GIVE ME A BREAK!
Go to Jail, do not pass go, do NOT collect $200....... :rolleyes:

[sodascouts]

There's a gay relationship in the Bible. :shrug:

I'd like to know what Scripture you're referring to, as well. :) Not the story in general, the Scripture that states the two had a sexual relationship.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

David and Jonathan. :wavey:

Sorry, there IS NO evidence to support that from the book of First Samual!

[GypsySorcerer]

Sorry, there IS NO evidence to support that from the book of First Samual!

Really? Try finding the original translations sometime.

[irishgrl]

And I never said they should. I do not argue that. But the fact remains that THIS COUNTRY, LIKE IT OUR NOT, was founded on the basic principles and beliefs of GOD (let me spell it out for you) G-O-D. This country was very much a christian society when it was formed

I guarantee you, if the founding fathers were alive today to see what you fanatics are trying to do to their intent to create a FREE society, they'd turn in their collective graves!

PS: its a good thing GOD only has three letters or Im sure you'd misspell that as well.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'd like to know what Scripture you're referring to, as well. :)

There talking about 1Samual Chapter 17

[ontheEdgeof17]

I'd like to know what Scripture you're referring to, as well. :) Not the story in general, the Scripture that states the two had a sexual relationship.


I know they kissed. I don't have my Bible here to read it.

[amber]

Don't you blaspheme in here! Don't you <i>blaspheme</i> in here!! :lol:
:lol: :laugh: :lol: :thumbsup:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I guarantee you, if the founding fathers were alive today to see what you fanatics are trying to do to their intent to create a FREE society, they'd turn in their collective graves!

PS: its a good thing GOD only has three letters or Im sure you'd misspell that as well.

I see that you are about the only one here who is still angry, oh well there def. is no talking to you.

God Bless.

[GypsySorcerer]

There talking about 1Samual Chapter 17

Here is an analysis:

Jonathan and David (http://members.aol.com/matrixwerx/glbthistory/jonathan.htm)

[ontheEdgeof17]

I know they kissed. I don't have my Bible here to read it.


...and Saul was angry at Jonathan for chosing the Son Of Jesse.....calling him a pervert

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Really? Try finding the original translations sometime.

News...
There the original greek and hebrew translations of scripture. Which were transfered into latin by St. Jerome, and then into other languages starting with Martin Luther.

It dates back to early Jews, we religous types tend to keep up with our founding documents.

[amber]

Well if you live by that code then murder, rape, etc... can be freely done.

the amendment would just reaffirm that special union that only is shared between one man and one woman, being able to express your love to create another life...to me...it seems to be God's natural order of things, and it really is supported throughout not only the bible, but history.
If it was god's natural order....THERE WOULD BE NO GAY PEOPLE!
HELLO? HELLO, IN THERE?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

If it was god's natural order....THERE WOULD BE NO GAY PEOPLE!
HELLO? HELLO, IN THERE?

Well thats the thing,

Could it be, and think about this.

That THAT is the cross that God wants you to carry in your life, God blessed you with that cross because he knew that you were strong enough to handle it, devoting your life to God completley and not living the married life. For the bible also says that marriage IS NOT for everyone.

[GypsySorcerer]

News...
There the original greek and hebrew translations of scripture. Which were transfered into latin by St. Jerome, and then into other languages starting with Martin Luther.

It dates back to early Jews, we religous types tend to keep up with our founding documents.



Dear, I've done my research on this. Passages about Jonathan and David's affection for one another were left out.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

...and Saul was angry at Jonathan for chosing the Son Of Jesse.....calling him a pervert


- I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women. (2S.2:26).
- Saul's anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don't I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send and bring him to me, for he must die!" (1S.20:30).

Jesus and Peter loved each other and they were not homosexuals... and the love of Jesus to Peter was more wonderful than that of a woman!... it is the most you can say of a friend of the same or different sex, specially right after his death... and it does not indicate any homosexuality at all.

The statement od Saul was just out of his character of jealousy and hate towards David whom he wanted to be killed at any cost.

Many fathers and son love each other and it is not homosexuality... many mothers and daughters and many brothers love each other without any homosexuality at all.

Some try to use the story of Jonathan and David and that it shows that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality... wrong!

God Himself states that homosexual acts are a grave sin, "an abomination" (Lev.18:22).

Paul proclaims homosexual acts as "shameful passions" and "perversion", "God has given them up to shameful passions. among them women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and men too, giving up natural relations with women, burn with their lust for one another, males behave indecently with males, and are paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion" (Rom.1:26-27).

[wondergirl9847]

1 Corinthians 7 talks about sex and marriage. Paul wrote the Corinthians.

Verse 3: "Husbands and wives should satisfy each other's sexual needs.

Verse 6: "What I have just said is not meant as a command but as a suggestion. I would like everyone to be like me. However, each person has a special gift from God, and these gifts vary from person to person.

Verse 8: "I say to those who are not married, especially to widows: It is good for you to stay single like me.

Verse 9: "However, if you cannot control your desires, you should get married. It is better for you to marry than to burn with sexual desire."

I don't believe that sex is for creation purposes only. :)

[GypsySorcerer]

Well thats the thing,

Could it be, and think about this.

That THAT is the cross that God wants you to carry in your life, God blessed you with that cross because he knew that you were strong enough to handle it, devoting your life to God completley and not living the married life. For the bible also says that marriage IS NOT for everyone.


If I didn't know better, I'd say you were posting as a charicature of a religous zealot.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Dear, I've done my research on this. Passages about Jonathan and David's affection for one another were left out.

Oh dear Lord,

where exactly did you do your "research" on this?

If there is one thing Im pretty solid on its my bible facts. More NT than OT, but I like to stay up to date.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were posting as a charicature of a religous zealot.

How so?

I was just giving them a senario. That's all.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I’m just curious here. How many of you have taken time to read the bible?

I know I asked this before and challenged you to try a PC bible study program, but my question got buried in comments that looked like they we’re designed to escape the answer. JMO :lol:

[sodascouts]

Here is an analysis:

Jonathan and David (http://members.aol.com/matrixwerx/glbthistory/jonathan.htm)

I still don't see any verse that says they were lovers.

[GypsySorcerer]

- I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women. (2S.2:26).
- Saul's anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don't I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send and bring him to me, for he must die!" (1S.20:30).

Jesus and Peter loved each other and they were not homosexuals... and the love of Jesus to Peter was more wonderful than that of a woman!... it is the most you can say of a friend of the same or different sex, specially right after his death... and it does not indicate any homosexuality at all.

The statement od Saul was just out of his character of jealousy and hate towards David whom he wanted to be killed at any cost.

Many fathers and son love each other and it is not homosexuality... many mothers and daughters and many brothers love each other without any homosexuality at all.

Some try to use the story of Jonathan and David and that it shows that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality... wrong!

God Himself states that homosexual acts are a grave sin, "an abomination" (Lev.18:22).

Paul proclaims homosexual acts as "shameful passions" and "perversion", "God has given them up to shameful passions. among them women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and men too, giving up natural relations with women, burn with their lust for one another, males behave indecently with males, and are paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion" (Rom.1:26-27).

Paul also says he only offers his opinions. ;)

Besides, why should people who don't believe in the Bible have to follow it?

[estranged4life]

1 Corinthians 7 talks about sex and marriage. Paul wrote the Corinthians.

Verse 3: "Husbands and wives should satisfy each other's sexual needs.

Verse 6: "What I have just said is not meant as a command but as a suggestion. I would like everyone to be like me. However, each person has a special gift from God, and these gifts vary from person to person.

Verse 8: "I say to those who are not married, especially to widows: It is good for you to stay single like me.

Verse 9: "However, if you cannot control your desires, you should get married. It is better for you to marry than to burn with sexual desire."

I don't believe that sex is for creation purposes
only. :)

I would rather have more music to listen than sex, Sad but amazingly true!!!!! :thumbsup:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

1 Corinthians 7 talks about sex and marriage. Paul wrote the Corinthians.

Verse 3: "Husbands and wives should satisfy each other's sexual needs.

Verse 6: "What I have just said is not meant as a command but as a suggestion. I would like everyone to be like me. However, each person has a special gift from God, and these gifts vary from person to person.

Verse 8: "I say to those who are not married, especially to widows: It is good for you to stay single like me.

Verse 9: "However, if you cannot control your desires, you should get married. It is better for you to marry than to burn with sexual desire."

I don't believe that sex is for creation purposes only. :)

Its main purpose is for producing life as God stated in the garden, but SURE of course it offers pleasure, but that pleasure in the process of creation.

[amber]

Well thats the thing,

Could it be, and think about this.

That THAT is the cross that God wants you to carry in your life, God blessed you with that cross because he knew that you were strong enough to handle it, devoting your life to God completley and not living the married life. For the bible also says that marriage IS NOT for everyone.
That is just wrong. You really think god would've created 15-25 percent of the population throughout all of time, as gay people, and meant that as their "cross to bear"?
:laugh: :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

[markolas]

Besides, why should people who don't believe in the Bible have to follow it?

Because if they don't, they'll burn in HEEELLLLLLLLL!!!! ;)

[ontheEdgeof17]

I still don't see any verse that says they were lovers.


Do you need to be lovers to be gay or straight? Just asking

[wondergirl9847]

I would rather have more music to listen than sex, Sad but amazingly true!!!!! :thumbsup:

LOL!!

Hey, like it says, we are ALL different, even in our desires. :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Paul also says he only offers his opinions. ;)

Besides, why should people who don't believe in the Bible have to follow it?

They don't have to.

And in all since, you have the free will to do as you wish. The marriage amendment action that is taken place is from religious Americans that have a God given right to express that they want to verify that the unique joining of one man and one woman is what marriage is and who its for.

If you want to live with the same sex, express your feelings for them, get a civil union with them...go ahead (I may not agree, but that doesn’t mean that you don't have that right).

But some feel that they need to protect what is sacred to them, the unique joining and relationship between one man and one woman, and I feel that it is our right to do so.

[irishgrl]

I'd like to know what Scripture you're referring to, as well. Not the story in general, the Scripture that states the two had a sexual relationship.
I took a look at 1 Samuel, ch 20, in its entirety and this verse in particular caught my eye: "and Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul" verse 17
that sounds mighty passionate for two men friends

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Do you need to be lovers to be gay or straight? Just asking

No and the bible is silent on that...

What alot of christians say is:

"Homosexuality in itself is not a sin, because the bible is silent about that. But the actual partaking in homosexual activities is a sin, because the bible is not silent on that."

Im just saying that that is MOST christians way of looking at the subject.

my 2 cents.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I took a look at 1 Samuel, ch 20, in its entirety and this verse in particular caught my eye: "and Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul" verse 17
that sounds mighty passionate for two men friends

but neither does it say that they were intimate or lovers.

I can say about Peter that he loved Jesus as his own soul...as I do. That didn't make Peter and Jesus more than "friends"

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Because if they don't, they'll burn in HEEELLLLLLLLL!!!! ;)

No, come on now. No one has said that on this board! :)

[Merf]

No and the bible is silent on that...


Im just saying that that is MOST christians way of looking at the subject.

my 2 cents.

As a Christian, I find that blanket statement to be terribly offensive. Don't use my religion to spread your hate.

[GypsySorcerer]

This is the best and most well thought-out essay (from a religious standpiont) on the subject I have found....from a strictly theological standpoint.

Clickie (http://www.soulforce.org/whatthebiblesays.pdf)

[irishgrl]

I see that you are about the only one here who is still angry, oh well there def. is no talking to you.

God Bless.

actually, I think Im behaving rather well! you havent seen me mad! :p

[GypsySorcerer]

but neither does it say that they were intimate or lovers.

I can say about Peter that he loved Jesus as his own soul...as I do. That didn't make Peter and Jesus more than "friends"

Dear, the Bible doesn't mention purgatory by name either, nor does is say that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven. Christians disagree on how to administer baptism, for heaven's sake. This obsession about homosexuality is bigoted and hateful.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Here's my beef with this:

People can point out verses in the Bible that do not pertain to them and call it wrong...a sin. However, there are verses in the Bible that do pertain to them that point out what is wrong and right but somehow they say "yes I know this, but I will be forgiven". Since being gay doesn't pertain to them, they think everything about it is wrong, but they are committing sins, just like I am. sure, they can say that they have gay friends and what not, but homosexuals cannot act upon it? It doesn't make sense to me and that's why I get so defensive. I'm attracted to men, not by choice.....so I have to live in constant defense mode when a point like this is brought up. I tried everything in my power not to be gay. I went to church.....I prayed about it.....I tried to deny it by dating women.....but I can't change who I am and who I love. If loving a man is a great sin, then so be it. I'm not living in sadness.....If I want to get married, then I will. It's my choice and mine alone.


:) :) :) :)

[amber]

As a Christian, I find that blanket statement to be terribly offensive. Don't use my religion to spread your hate.
Rock it, Sistah!

[sodascouts]

As a Christian, I find that blanket statement to be terribly offensive. Don't use my religion to spread your hate.

Merf, all he said was that many Christians believe that the homosexual act is a sin. ??!!

[irishgrl]

but neither does it say that they were intimate or lovers.

yes it does:
"and as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground and bowed himself three times: and
they kissed one another
hmmm and they spent a lot of time in the fields together too........ :D

[Brwn_eyes0511]

As a Christian, I find that blanket statement to be terribly offensive. Don't use my religion to spread your hate.

I don't have hate, Im sorry you view it as that.

And If you would actually read what I wrote I said MOST Christians which means what?

2 : the majority of <most people> (websters)

so what does that mean...there are christian groups that support gay marriage...hmmm

guess that means YOU...oops...not so much a blanket statement anymore huh?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

yes it does:
"and as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground and bowed himself three times: and
they kissed one another
hmmm and they spent a lot of time in the fields together too........ :D

Yes and lets give the many examples of where men have kissed men in the OT and NT (especially Jesus)

cultures and customes in anctient jewish times were alot different than today.
You can't "americanize" the bible.

[wondergirl9847]

yes it does:
"and as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground and bowed himself three times: and
they kissed one another
hmmm and they spent a lot of time in the fields together too........ :D

Kissing the same gender does not = gay. LOL I see how it may be interpreted that way, but I don't believe they were gay. They were best friends and very close. :)

Besides, it doesn't say WHERE they kissed each other. On the forehead? On the cheek? On the back of the hand? Who knows! :shrug:

[ontheEdgeof17]

I

so what does that mean...there are christian groups that support gay marriage...hmmm

guess that means YOU...oops...not so much a blanket statement anymore huh?


My denomination accepts marriage as a rites of passage.....gay or straight.....We get bashed a lot though. :lol:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Merf, all he said was that many Christians believe that the homosexual act is a sin. ??!!

Thank you!

[Merf]

Merf, all he said was that many Christians believe that the homosexual act is a sin. ??!!

No, he said MOST, when in fact, only the more conservative denominations (the Fundamentalists, if you will) stick to that hardlined idea as a tenet of their faith. Individuals believe what they want, but as denominations, only a few actually preach that hatred. Many of the more liberal denominations (including mine) don't view the exclusion of homosexuals from the church as a Christian ideal.

Like our AnnCoulter-loving friend here, I too think it's important to speak from both sides of an issue.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Rock it, Sistah!

Yea thats right, support the hatred.

Everyone was posting just fine and then she had to make a hate post, and its "Rock it, Sistah!"

H-Y-P and add an O-C, R-I-S-Y spells Hypocrisy ;)

[irishgrl]

News...
There the original greek and hebrew translations of scripture. Which were transfered into latin by St. Jerome, and then into other languages starting with Martin Luther.

It dates back to early Jews, we religous types tend to keep up with our founding documents.

so, how do you RELIGIOUS TYPES explain the wholesale gutting of the Bible by the 5th Ecumenical Council? Our good friend Constantine picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to keep or toss? Are you aware of the early Church crisis regarding the Divinity (or not) of Jesus? or how all the original chapters that honored women (with the exception of Ruth who was "properly" subservient?)

oh and btw: I always thought the ORIGINAL language of the Bible was Aramaic? PUH LEEZ. And another thing: much of the "founding documents" were lost when the great Library of Alexandria caught fire! Good Grief!
only a pitiful fragment remains and THAT is in the Vatican Archives....
(you religious types LOL!)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No, he said MOST, when in fact, only the more conservative denominations (the Fundamentalists, if you will) stick to that hardlined idea as a tenet of their faith. Individuals believe what they want, but as denominations, only a few actually preach that hatred. Many of the more liberal denominations (including mine) don't view the exclusion of homosexuals from the church as a Christian ideal.

You don't have a correct understanding of the Christians that exist in America then do you. Only a rare few churches such as the "friends" (Quakers) churches are excepting of gay marriage. Poll the MAJORITY of Christians and see if they support gay marriage. Heck check the 2004 poll results in the states that were asked if they wanted to legalize gay marriage...that number speaks for itself.

[amber]

Yea thats right, support the hatred.

Everyone was posting just fine and then she had to make a hate post, and its "Rock it, Sistah!"

H-Y-P and add an O-C, R-I-S-Y spells Hypocrisy ;)
well, what i thought, is that you're views within Christianity spread hatred, and that she said she was Christian, and not to use the religion to spread hatred. ie, i agreed with her, that you should not use religion to support bigotry and descrimination. That's all.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Many of the more liberal denominations (including mine) don't view the exclusion of homosexuals from the church as a Christian ideal.




Same here, Merfy. However, the local churches have low blowed us many of times throughout the years. :distress:

[sodascouts]

No, he said MOST, when in fact, only the more conservative denominations (the Fundamentalists, if you will) stick to that hardlined idea as a tenet of their faith. Individuals believe what they want, but as denominations, only a few actually preach that hatred. Many of the more liberal denominations (including mine) don't view the exclusion of homosexuals from the church as a Christian ideal.

Where are you getting your statistics from?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

so, how do you RELIGIOUS TYPES explain the wholesale gutting of the Bible by the 5th Ecumenical Council? Our good friend Constantine picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to keep or toss? Are you aware of the early Church crisis regarding the Divinity (or not) of Jesus? or how all the original chapters that honored women (with the exception of Ruth who was "properly" subservient?)

oh and btw: I always thought the ORIGINAL language of the Bible was Aramaic? PUH LEEZ.

Well, you’re wrong. Original language of the Bible was mostly Hebrew, I believe that only Daniel was found written in Aramaic...and The New Testament was written in Greek but the peoples of the time probably spoke Aramaic.

During the Council the Church had the daunting task of actually going through scriptures and deciding which books were Holy enough to be added to the bible. How do you think the bible came to be, it just fell out of the sky?
We believe that the early church fathers were guided by the Holy Spirit to make the proper decisions on which books should be included in the final Bible.
Martin Luther took the deuterocanonical books out do to their conflicting teachings of a purgatory or prayers to the saints.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

That is just wrong. You really think god would've created 15-25 percent of the population throughout all of time, as gay people, and meant that as their "cross to bear"?
:laugh: :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

Yes, we all have crosses to bear in life. Make a funny out of it if you wish some people are blind and some are deaf, they could scorn God for this turning from him, but they choose to instead devote their love to him and be thankful for what they do have.

We often make the weight of our cross a lot more heavier than it should be

[Brwn_eyes0511]

This is the best and most well thought-out essay (from a religious standpiont) on the subject I have found....from a strictly theological standpoint.

Clickie (http://www.soulforce.org/whatthebiblesays.pdf)

You no not...you would actually support an essay that supported you view now would you? You wouldn't do that! :confused: :)

I can give you a link to other well thought out and completely theological papers on the other side.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

well, what i thought, is that you're views within Christianity spread hatred, and that she said she was Christian, and not to use the religion to spread hatred. ie, i agreed with her, that you should not use religion to support bigotry and descrimination. That's all.

I don't want to spread hatred...but morals on the other hand...heck yea! :nod:

[irishgrl]

We believe that the early church fathers were guided by the Holy Spirit to make the proper decisions on which books should be included in the final Bible. What a crock!
The early Church Fathers were guided by a POWER GRAB between the factions that believed Jesus was Divine and those that believed he was a MAN.
There was NO HOLY SPIRIT guiding THOSE folks let me tell YOU! This was a very serious business because the Church used scripture to gain control over the people. It shaped society for centuries to come (is STILL shaping it if YOU are any indication) It wasnt until the invention of the printing press and wide scale accessibility of the Bible for the masses that people began to read for themselves and interpret for themselves instead of being spoon fed what the Church wanted them to believe!

Henry the 8th broke away from the Catholic Church and Founded his Own in order to be able to marry another woman not his wife! Martin Luther broke away from the Church over issues of paid for dispensations! The GREAT AIM of the Church always has been and always will be control--control for the good of the CHURCH.

btw: Aramaic is a form of Hebrew so we are both right.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I'm seriously going to cry.


I keep telling myself it's not my fault or God's fault for me being gay and wanting what a "normal" person wants and needs. But who's fault is it? There has to be some sort of reason why i was born homosexual. If I had any choice in this, it wouldn't be what I am living in during this day and age.

As Stevie would say:

I don't change
And baby you don't change
It's all the same....Rhiannon.



:rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes:

[estranged4life]

LOL!!

Hey, like it says, we are ALL different, even in our desires. :shrug:

If God (Him/Her/It/They/Moneybag M$ck :lol: /Etc) came to earth and offered me a quadrillion dollars and all the most beautiful women for any wild sexual fantasy I would want for the rest of my life in exchange for permanently giving up music...I hope he (If God's a "he") better be wearing a cup cause I am gonna tee-off in his jewels and say NO DEAL (!!!) and then ask 'him' my ol' tried-and-true "were you born stupid...Or did a have to work at it???"

[GypsySorcerer]

Same here, Merfy. However, the local churches have low blowed us many of times throughout the years. :distress:

What denominations to you belong to, if you don't mind my asking? :)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'm seriously going to cry.


I keep telling myself it's not my fault or God's fault for me being gay and wanting what a "normal" person wants and needs. But who's fault is it? There has to be some sort of reason why i was born homosexual. If I had any choice in this, it wouldn't be what I am living in during this day and age.

As Stevie would say:

I don't change
And baby you don't change
It's all the same....Rhiannon.


I don't want you to cry...please dont :distress: :distress: :distress:

its no ones fault the way you feel, you feel the way you feel. From the typical religous stand point you would be incouraged to serve God in a celibate life style...it can be done...and people CAN be happy feeling their void with the perfection of Gods love...a love that NO human can give you. You are not WRONG to feel what you feel. But God is calling you to something greater.

Sorry, that was my religious spill for the night. I'm not trying to force my view on you AT ALL!!!!

I just don't want you to cry

SMILE BE HAPPY :) :) :)

[wondergirl9847]

If God (Him/Her/It/They/Moneybag M$ck :lol: /Etc) came to earth and offered me a quadrillion dollars and all the most beautiful women for any wild sexual fantasy I would want for the rest of my life in exchange for permanently giving up music...I hope he (If God's a "he") better be wearing a cup cause I am gonna tee-off in his jewels and say NO DEAL (!!!) and then ask 'him' my ol' tried-and-true "were you born stupid...Or did a have to work at it???"

Not even Rita Cosby and Stevie Nicks TOGETHER?!! :eek:

LOL

[GypsySorcerer]

I'm seriously going to cry.


I keep telling myself it's not my fault or God's fault for me being gay and wanting what a "normal" person wants and needs. But who's fault is it? There has to be some sort of reason why i was born homosexual. If I had any choice in this, it wouldn't be what I am living in during this day and age.

As Stevie would say:

I don't change
And baby you don't change
It's all the same....Rhiannon.



:rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes:

We need a hug icon.

Curtis, I think you're kind, good-looking and intelligent....And you've chosen to go into one of the most selfless professions there are.
All I can say is, you're loved by many.

[amber]

I'm seriously going to cry.


I keep telling myself it's not my fault or God's fault for me being gay and wanting what a "normal" person wants and needs. But who's fault is it? There has to be some sort of reason why i was born homosexual. If I had any choice in this, it wouldn't be what I am living in during this day and age.

As Stevie would say:

I don't change
And baby you don't change
It's all the same....Rhiannon.



:rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes:
don't cry, because you are right.
I, personally, am not Christian. But I think about the big picture a lot. And, logically, it occurs to me that God, if there is one, would never have made 15-25 percent of the population throughout time gay, if that is not what he/she/it had wanted. It is only man's interpretation that makes it so. Nature in it's many and varied forms is all beautiful, and all have a place in the mosaic, otherwise it would not be here. We are all one.
Again, i'm not religious in the Christian way, but if i was, that is how i'd think of god. I would think that everything was created for a reason, and everything is good, and has it's place. No creation would have more or less importance.
I, personally, think of gay people as berdache - one who knows the balance between both worlds...male and female...

[ontheEdgeof17]

its no ones fault the way you feel, you feel the way you feel. From the typical religous stand point you would be incouraged to serve God in a celibate life style...it can be done...and people CAN be happy feeling their void with the perfection of Gods love...a love that NO human can give you. You are not WRONG to feel what you feel. But God is calling you to something greater.


Yeah, I'm sure my calling is to masterbate for the rest of my life. That's the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Too late though since I have had sex and been in relationships. Since my denomination (which is Christian, btw) doesn't believe in being saved after Baptism, I guess I am screwed in some eyes.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

What a crock!
The early Church Fathers were guided by a POWER GRAB between the factions that believed Jesus was Divine and those that believed he was a MAN.
There was NO HOLY SPIRIT guiding THOSE folks let me tell YOU! This was a very serious business because the Church used scripture to gain control over the people. It shaped society for centuries to come (is STILL shaping it if YOU are any indication) It wasnt until the invention of the printing press and wide scale accessibility of the Bible for the masses that people began to read for themselves and interpret for themselves instead of being spoon fed what the Church wanted them to believe!

Henry the 8th broke away from the Catholic Church and Founded his Own in order to be able to marry another woman not his wife! Martin Luther broke away from the Church over issues of paid for dispensations! The GREAT AIM of the Church always has been and always will be control--control for the good of the CHURCH.

Again, Im sorry that you feel that way. :distress:

But you are intitled to your belief system!

But you have to excute THE CHURCH for actually standing up to someone and saying NO were NOT going to grant you, Henry the 8th, a divorce because your wife "can't produce a male child"...were not going to accomidate our beliefs about divorce so you can get married again...

POOF...he starts his own church!

And Martin Luther actually had good points...there was corruption going on in the church during the time of Luther, and he very much wanted to settle it within the church. But, some of his crazy followers went a little overboard and decided to break off completley and start a new church.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yeah, I'm sure my calling is to masterbate for the rest of my life. That's the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Too late though since I have had sex and been in relationships. Since my denomination (which is Christian, btw) doesn't believe in being saved after Baptism, I guess I am screwed in some eyes.

Well I believe that you aren't REALLY TRULY saved until you stand in front of God and he gives you his judgement.

And I had a feeling you would laugh at the church's view on the subject...why not...taken the easy and free road out is always much more fun!

[markolas]

I'm seriously going to cry.


I keep telling myself it's not my fault or God's fault for me being gay and wanting what a "normal" person wants and needs. But who's fault is it? There has to be some sort of reason why i was born homosexual. If I had any choice in this, it wouldn't be what I am living in during this day and age.


A bit of unsolicited advice. :)

Don't expose your vulnerability to people like brwn_eyes.

Be proud of who you are. Being gay isn't a disease to assign blame to someone for. You couldn't pay me to turn straight, were such a thing possible. I would miss out on knowing so many great people. There's no way I'd trade that for brwn_eyes' idea of heaven. A place like that would be sheer hell to me, anyway. Don't waste time wishing you could be someone you're not because you think it would be "easier."

[ontheEdgeof17]

And I had a feeling you would laugh at the church's view on the subject...why not...taken the easy and free road out is always much more fun!


Who's church, my dear? Not mine. You need to understand that your church beliefs are not my church beliefs. Christianity is not universal. Some of it is, but not all. That's the problem with Bush. Not all Christians are the same....just like not all Jews are the same.......and so on.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Who's church, my dear? Not mine. You need to understand that your church beliefs are not my church beliefs. Christianity is not universal. Some of it is, but not all. That's the problem with Bush. Not all Christians are the same....just like not all Jews are the same.......and so on.

which really is true, but also very sad.

[amber]

A bit of unsolicited advice. :)

Don't expose your vulnerability to people like brwn_eyes.

Be proud of who you are. Being gay isn't a disease to assign blame to someone for. You couldn't pay me to turn straight, were such a thing possible. I would miss out on knowing so many great people. There's no way I'd trade that for brwn_eyes' idea of heaven. A place like that would be sheer hell to me, anyway. Don't waste time wishing you could be someone you're not because you think it would be "easier."
Excellent. I agree.
and i'm gonna do a repost...
don't cry, because you are right.
I, personally, am not Christian. But I think about the big picture a lot. And, logically, it occurs to me that God, if there is one, would never have made 15-25 percent of the population throughout time gay, if that is not what he/she/it had wanted. It is only man's interpretation that makes it so. Nature in it's many and varied forms is all beautiful, and all have a place in the mosaic, otherwise it would not be here. We are all one.
Again, i'm not religious in the Christian way, but if i was, that is how i'd think of god. I would think that everything was created for a reason, and everything is good, and has it's place. No creation would have more or less importance.
I, personally, think of gay people as berdache - one who knows the balance between both worlds...male and female...

[ontheEdgeof17]

A bit of unsolicited advice. :)

Don't expose your vulnerability to people like brwn_eyes.

Be proud of who you are. Being gay isn't a disease to assign blame to someone for. You couldn't pay me to turn straight, were such a thing possible. I would miss out on knowing so many great people. There's no way I'd trade that for brwn_eyes' idea of heaven. A place like that would be sheer hell to me, anyway. Don't waste time wishing you could be someone you're not because you think it would be "easier."


Agreed. I made a decision one day and went forth with it. People make me question it sometimes, but for me, it will always be the right decision.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

A bit of unsolicited advice. :)

Don't expose your vulnerability to people like brwn_eyes.

Be proud of who you are. Being gay isn't a disease to assign blame to someone for. You couldn't pay me to turn straight, were such a thing possible. I would miss out on knowing so many great people. There's no way I'd trade that for brwn_eyes' idea of heaven. A place like that would be sheer hell to me, anyway. Don't waste time wishing you could be someone you're not because you think it would be "easier."

Again hatred and misunderstanding towards me and my views keeps on rolling. :rolleyes:

[GypsySorcerer]

don't cry, because you are right.
I, personally, am not Christian. But I think about the big picture a lot. And, logically, it occurs to me that God, if there is one, would never have made 15-25 percent of the population throughout time gay, if that is not what he/she/it had wanted. It is only man's interpretation that makes it so. Nature in it's many and varied forms is all beautiful, and all have a place in the mosaic, otherwise it would not be here. We are all one.
Again, i'm not religious in the Christian way, but if i was, that is how i'd think of god. I would think that everything was created for a reason, and everything is good, and has it's place. No creation would have more or less importance.
I, personally, think of gay people as berdache - one who knows the balance between both worlds...male and female...

Very well and eloquently put. Thanks, Amber. :xoxo:

[ontheEdgeof17]

which really is true, but also very sad.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[markolas]

Again hatred and misunderstanding towards me and my views keeps on rolling. :rolleyes:

I neither hate nor misunderstand. I just don't trust you. ;)

[sodascouts]

I don't want to spread hatred...but morals on the other hand...heck yea! :nod:

That's the problem - morals can't be "spread." We can state what we believe and why we believe it, and try to live our lives according to what we believe is right, but everyone has to make that choice for themselves. When I join in these discussions (admittedly rarely), it's usually to try to clarify misunderstandings or defend what I feel are unfair statements or mischaracterizations. Some Ledgies believe in the Bible, some don't. These posts don't change any minds. I do hope, however, that these discussions can promote understanding between those who disagree. That doesn't always happen - and sometimes it seems the opposite occurs - but that's always been my goal.

[irishgrl]

I would rather be "Christ-like" than Christian.
(and YES I have a LONG way to go...)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I would rather be "Christ-like" than Christian.

And that is an awsome way to think! I agree.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

That's the problem - morals can't be "spread." We can state what we believe and why we believe it, and try to live our lives according to what we believe is right, but everyone has to make that choice for themselves. When I join in these discussions (admittedly rarely), it's usually to try to clarify misunderstandings or defend what I feel are unfair statements or mischaracterizations. Some Ledgeies believe in the Bible, some don't. These posts don't change any minds. I do hope, however, that these discussions can promote understanding between those who disagree. That doesn't always happen - and sometimes it seems the opposite occurs - but that's always been my goal.

Thats true and I understand that.

Good Post! :)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I neither hate nor misunderstand. I just don't trust you. ;)

Thanks :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Whats so funny?

That I want unity between Christians

[amber]

Very well and eloquently put. Thanks, Amber. :xoxo:
Thank you. It's what i believe. :xoxo: it seems so self evident and logical to me. Imagine.... :woohoo:

[amber]

Whats so funny?

That I want unity between Christians
Anyone who is christlike would want unity between all people.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Anyone who is christlike would want unity between all people.

Yes and I do want that. :)

[amber]

Yes and I do want that. :)
you can't have unity if you deny some people rights that other people have. :wavey:

[irishgrl]

Yes and I do want that. :)
well, the results of your posts belie that intention
:shocked:

you come onto this board with your "in your face" beliefs and then you say you want UNITY? You've got a funny way of showing it.....kinda like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer............. :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

well, the results of your posts belie that intention
:shocked:

denominations during todays world break off and go their own way, its really insane. I long for a coming together, getting back to the traditions and beliefs that Jesus taught.

I long for unity in the world, but I'm realistic enough to know that in this lifetime thats not going to happen.

Dosen't make me some sort of idiot/troll/wretched person.

[amber]

denominations during todays world break off and go their own way, its really insane. I long for a coming together, getting back to the traditions and beliefs that Jesus taught.

I long for unity in the world, but I'm realistic enough to know that in this lifetime thats not going to happen.

Dosen't make me some sort of idiot/troll/wretched person.
Can't you see that it's wrong to want everyone to believe what you do? What if someone tried to do that to you? Can't you see how you would hate that? Geez, I swear.

[irishgrl]

denominations during todays world break off and go their own way, its really insane. I long for a coming together, getting back to the traditions and beliefs that Jesus taught.

I long for unity in the world, but I'm realistic enough to know that in this lifetime thats not going to happen.

Dosen't make me some sort of idiot/troll/wretched person.

I havent called you any names.

[Johnny Stew]

Yes, we all have crosses to bear in life. Make a funny out of it if you wish some people are blind and some are deaf, they could scorn God for this turning from him, but they choose to instead devote their love to him and be thankful for what they do have.

We often make the weight of our cross a lot more heavier than it should be

I don't scorn God, nor am I angry with Him for making me gay (in my opinion, my sexual orientation was a gift and has helped me to be a better person than I would have been if I never had to encounter any kind of resistance or obstacles just for being who I am).
I am frustrated that so-called Christians use the bible to further their denial of my civil rights, but I don't hold God accountable for the failings of His people.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

you can't have unity if you deny some people rights that other people have. :wavey:

Well, I WANT unity but I'm wise enough to know that its probably not going to happen in my lifetime.

[amber]

Well, I WANT unity but I'm wise enough to know that its probably not going to happen in my lifetime.
well, quit thinking that some people shouldn't have the same rights as you, and that everyone should believe what you believe, and you'll be on your way...

[Johnny Stew]

From the typical religous stand point you would be incouraged to serve God in a celibate life style...it can be done...and people CAN be happy feeling their void with the perfection of Gods love...a love that NO human can give you. You are not WRONG to feel what you feel. But God is calling you to something greater.

I'll give up the hope of ever having a romantic and intimate relationship, in order to serve God, the minute everyone else does.

However, I have a question. Since some religions allow their ministers to marry, will I be allowed to marry another man if I serve God as a minister?
Or will I still be denied something allowed heterosexuals?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

well, quit thinking that some people shouldn't have the same rights as you, and that everyone should believe what you believe, and you'll be on your way...
I don't think like that...

but I can't abandon my beliefs...its part of who I am.

[irishgrl]

Paul said "Love is Patient and Kind" there's more, but you get the idea. To be truly "Christ-Like" is to be tolerant, and forgiving, and to welcome the lost sheep and be the servant of your fellow man etc........NOT to feel yourself morally superior or assume you have the only path toward God that there is...
or to foist your belief system on the rest of us through a systematic assault on our civil liberties.

We are created in God's image not the image of the Moral "Majority"
now ask yourself: why is it that fundamental Christians are SO threatened by any other belief system or value system?

[Johnny Stew]

I don't think like that...

but I can't abandon my beliefs...its part of who I am.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm certainly not asking you or anyone else to abandon their beliefs.

In fact, what I'm asking doesn't involve the abandonment of beliefs at all... it merely involves looking a little deeper into your religion, and seeing that some of the ideas regarding homosexuality that are professed, are as antiquated as slavery and the subjugation of women.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Paul said "Love is Patient and Kind" there's more, but you get the idea. To be truly "Christ-Like" is to be tolerant, and forgiving, and to welcome the lost sheep and be the servant of your fellow man etc........NOT to feel yourself morally superior or assume you have the only path toward God that there is...
or to foist your belief system on the rest of us through a systematic assault on our civil liberties.

We are created in God's image not the image of the Moral "Majority"
now ask yourself: why is it that fundamental Christians are SO threatened by any other belief system or value system?

Yes, be excepting of people and love them Is christs message. But Christ also preached about SIN. To the woman he rescued from adultury, he told her her sins were forgiven...BUT...GO AND SIN NO MORE! God turns his head away from Sin, but he dosen't want us to show any less respect and love towards those who sin...which is EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Can't you see that it's wrong to want everyone to believe what you do? What if someone tried to do that to you? Can't you see how you would hate that? Geez, I swear.

why is it WRONG to want to bring people to Jesus (without forcing). Which is what he wanted us to do..."teach unto all nations". Its up to the person to follow Jesus. So no one can be forced...but I can still LONG for everyone to follow him...

and someone thats wrong to think like that? :confused:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

well, the results of your posts belie that intention
:shocked:

you come onto this board with your "in your face" beliefs and then you say you want UNITY? You've got a funny way of showing it.....kinda like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer............. :rolleyes:

Why is it "in your face" views. I feel that your views are "in my face."

[Johnny Stew]

Yes, be excepting of people and love them Is christs message. But Christ also preached about SIN. To the woman he rescued from adultury, he told her her sins were forgiven...BUT...GO AND SIN NO MORE! God turns his head away from Sin, but he dosen't want us to show any less respect and love towards those who sin...which is EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US!

Forgive me for not appreciating being lumped in with adulterers and other "sinners," simply because I'm not heterosexual and have chosen not to live my life denying myself things that most Christians would never even think to deny themselves.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'll give up the hope of ever having a romantic and intimate relationship, in order to serve God, the minute everyone else does.

However, I have a question. Since some religions allow their ministers to marry, will I be allowed to marry another man if I serve God as a minister?
Or will I still be denied something allowed heterosexuals?

It depends what "church" you join. Im sure that there are denominations that would allow that.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm certainly not asking you or anyone else to abandon their beliefs.

In fact, what I'm asking doesn't involve the abandonment of beliefs at all... it merely involves looking a little deeper into your religion, and seeing that some of the ideas regarding homosexuality that are professed, are as antiquated as slavery and the subjugation of women.

Sorry, you just said Im not asking you to change your beliefs...BUT I want you to change this one! : :shrug: :confused: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thats to fun.

[seeker007nmss]

In fact, what I'm asking doesn't involve the abandonment of beliefs at all... it merely involves looking a little deeper into your religion, and seeing that some of the ideas regarding homosexuality that are professed, are as antiquated as slavery and the subjugation of women.


Why does the ten commandments say "Do not covet thy neighbors wife? But doesn't mention anything about convetting thy neighbors husband? Are they fair game then? Just wondering.....

[amber]

why is it WRONG to want to bring people to Jesus (without forcing). Which is what he wanted us to do..."teach unto all nations". Its up to the person to follow Jesus. So no one can be forced...but I can still LONG for everyone to follow him...

and someone thats wrong to think like that? :confused:
It's wrong to vote and support politicians and views that aren't all inclusive. It's wrong to foist your views upon a nation, using political means. It's wrong not to realize that people who don't think exactly like you are somehow less deserving of basic human rights. It's wrong to descriminate, and support those who descriminate, based on color, creed, and religion. It's wrong.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Forgive me for not appreciating being lumped in with adulterers and other "sinners," simply because I'm not heterosexual and have chosen not to live my life denying myself things that most Christians would never even think to deny themselves.

Christianity doesn’t ask you to deny who you are. But to embrace how God wants you to live your life. Intense conversation with God is required.

[Johnny Stew]

Sorry, you just said Im not asking you to change your beliefs...BUT I want you to change this one! : :shrug: :confused: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thats to fun.

There's a difference between asking one to change their beliefs, and asking them to look DEEPER into their beliefs for the truth. ;)

Again, if you can look deeper into your beliefs to see that slavery and female subjugation are wrong, then you should be able to look deeper into your beliefs to see that homosexuality isn't.

[amber]

Christianity doesn’t ask you to deny who you are. But to embrace how God wants you to live your life. Intense conversation with God is required.
You really don't know what god has ever said. you can never know how he/she/it wants Johnny Stew to live his life. You just can't. God did not sit down with a big pen and write the bible. And once again, God would've said...
"hey, I created everything, everything has it's place, everything is beautiful - otherwise, why would i have created it?"
:lol:
"love,
God"

[GypsySorcerer]

Christianity doesn’t ask you to deny who you are. But to embrace how God wants you to live your life. Intense conversation with God is required.

You're really something, aren't you? Now you're telling us how to have our relationships with God. I am comfortable with my beliefs, and they're between me and God. I'm quite happy with that.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It's wrong to vote and support politicians and views that aren't all inclusive. It's wrong to foist your views upon a nation, using political means. It's wrong not to realize that people who don't think exactly like you are somehow less deserving of basic human rights. It's wrong to descriminate, and support those who descriminate, based on color, creed, and religion. It's wrong.

We vote based on OUR belief on how WE think the country should be run, we vote based on our conscience and how it tells us to vote..

And all those who voted like this (for Bush) are WRONG.

That’s are GOD GIVEN RIGHT, the right that our ancestors DIED FOR. And I will be DAMNED If I am going to compromise how I vote because someone else tells me I'm WRONG.

[GypsySorcerer]

You really don't know what god has ever said. you can never know how he/she/it wants Johnny Stew to live his life. You just can't. God did not sit down with a big pen and write the bible. And once again, God would've said...
"hey, I created everything, everything has it's place, everything is beautiful - otherwise, why would i have created it?"
:lol:
"love,
God"

The "Love, God" is a nice touch. :laugh: Seriously, though, I agree with you. :nod:

[amber]

We vote based on OUR belief on how WE think the country should be run, we vote based on our conscience and how it tells us to vote..

And all those who voted like this (for Bush) are WRONG.

That’s are GOD GIVEN RIGHT, the right that our ancestors DIED FOR. And I will be DAMNED If I am going to compromise how I vote because someone else tells me I'm WRONG.
yes, you can vote according to your beliefs. Just know that those beliefs promote the descrimination and inequality to your fellow humans. Not to mention the immense harm that Bush has no problem perpetrating on the other life forms on this earth.
apparently the fact that jesus said that we will be judged by how we treat the least of us has no effect on you.
Yes, by all means, you have the right to vote to take away rights from other humans/creatures that god created.
P.S.? Our ancestors died for freedom from religious persecution. freedom of religion. get it?

[Johnny Stew]

Christianity doesn’t ask you to deny who you are. But to embrace how God wants you to live your life. Intense conversation with God is required.

I pray, and I have studied the bible. In doing so, I am confident that my homosexuality, and physical expressions of it, are in no way against God.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You're really something, aren't you? Now you're telling us how to have our relationships with God. I am comfortable with my beliefs, and they're between me and God. I'm quite happy with that.

I’m not saying that you aren't happy with the way you are. I was simply addressing what the poster said.

Christianity doesn’t want you to deny yourself! I was simply saying that intense prayer is required in finding out the true meaning of how God wants you to live out your life...what God is calling YOU to do.

I’m NOT trying to tell you about your relationships with God! I’m really tired of the certain few posters here who are putting words into my mouth to piss me off...I guess in hopes that I will leave.

I have gotten a lot of PM's applauding my ability to STAND UP AND SAY...'NO' I HAVE A DIFFERENT opinion than YOU do.

So there obviously are a lot of people on this board who do support ideas that I’m trying to defend. Like my right to defend my belief and my conviction without someone cramming words that I don't even say into my mouth!

[amber]

Like my right to defend my belief and my conviction without someone cramming words that I don't even say into my mouth!
By voting the way you do, you cram your religion and your morals into people's mouths. Bummer, yeah?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I pray, and I have studied the bible. In doing so, I am confident that my homosexuality, and physical expressions of it, are in no way against God.

And that’s in essence OK. Because in the end NO ONE can come between that inner relationship that only you and God know of! NO ONE else will stand there with you during the final judgment...and God will judge for what we have done, and what we have failed to do. And if you can live your life free from any guilt in your heart...then that’s good! God Bless You for your courage!

[GypsySorcerer]

I’m not saying that you aren't happy with the way you are. I was simply addressing what the poster said.

Christianity doesn’t want you to deny yourself! I was simply saying that intense prayer is required in finding out the true meaning of how God wants you to live out your life...what God is calling YOU to do.

I’m NOT trying to tell you about your relationships with God! I’m really tired of the certain few posters here who are putting words into my mouth to piss me off...I guess in hopes that I will leave.

I have gotten a lot of PM's applauding my ability to STAND UP AND SAY...'NO' I HAVE A DIFFERENT opinion than YOU do.

So there obviously are a lot of people on this board who do support ideas that I’m trying to defend. Like my right to defend my belief and my conviction without someone cramming words that I don't even say into my mouth!

Please. So you think as a result of these intense conversations with God, we'll all be called to the same views as you?

There are thousands of religions in this world and you cannot say who is wrong or right. There is no such thing as a shared reality.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

By voting the way you do, you cram your religion and your morals into people's mouths. Bummer, yeah?

Well, by voting liberal one could say that you cram secularism down everyone elses throat...Bummer, yea?

[amber]

Well, by voting liberal one could say that you cram secularism down everyone elses throat...Bummer, yea?
No, because religion should be, and according to our constitution is, separate from politics. It's easy to practice religion anywhere you want. but the gov't controls a goodly part of every Americans, and many foreigners lives, and so religion should not be a part of that. It's pretty simple.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Please. So you think as a result of these intense conversations with God, we'll all be called to the same views as you?

There are thousands of religions in this world and you cannot say who is wrong or right. There is no such thing as a shared reality.

Actually there is, there is a shared reality in every religion that there is a higher being, in some form or another and we are all trying to discover our purposes here on this earth. I see a basic common ground of "we want to understand God and why we are here on this earth."

As a Catholic Christian I do believe that Jesus is the way to the Father. I mean don't you understand that I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT as a Christian!

I understand world religions and our common goal to understand God completely, which is a daunting task, which no one can really achieve.

[irishgrl]

Yes, be excepting of people and love them Is christs message. But Christ also preached about SIN. To the woman he rescued from adultury, he told her her sins were forgiven...BUT...GO AND SIN NO MORE! God turns his head away from Sin, but he dosen't want us to show any less respect and love towards those who sin...which is EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US!
you still didnt answer my question. WHY are fundamental Christians SO THREATENED by other belief/value systems?

[amber]

I understand world religions and our common goal to understand God completely, which is a daunting task, which no one can really achieve.
If you understand world religions, and the need to understand god, then why don't you support people who support the right of everyone to understand spirituality in their own way? Why do you think the gov't should be involved in everyone's personal form of spirituality? If the gov't butted out, then everyone would be happy and free to worship how they choose...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No, because religion should be, and according to our constitution is, separate from politics. It's easy to practice religion anywhere you want. but the gov't controls a goodly part of every Americans, and many foreigners lives, and so religion should not be a part of that. It's pretty simple.


And secularism isn't a form of religion?

New age, tolerance for everything under the sun (including bestiality), legalize drugs, engaging in self worship, the worship of money, greed and power! The freedom to want to have abortions because you're not "ready" to have a child. Wanting to end the life of an elderly person because they are to useless and would be better off anyway. The freedom to really do whatever we want to, screw rules and basic laws of the land which have been around since the beginning of time.

THATS not a religion, THIS is not a way of life trying to be forced upon Americans who happen to have conservative values we want to fight for?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

If you understand world religions, and the need to understand god, then why don't you support people who support the right of everyone to understand spirituality in their own way? Why do you think the gov't should be involved in everyone's personal form of spirituality? If the gov't butted out, then everyone would be happy and free to worship how they choose...

And everyone CAN worship the way they choose...hello! You really don’t understand a conservatives motto do you?

Government is not the solution...ITS THE PROBLEM!

But when deemed necessary and million year old institutions come under attack (like marriage) excuse us for wanting to define what marriage is.

No one is saying you can't worship the way you want to, go to church where you please...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

you still didnt answer my question. WHY are fundamental Christians SO THREATENED by other belief/value systems?

Its not that we are THREATENED its that we are trying to hold on, in the secular crazy a** world we live in, to the basic FUNDAMENTAL principles that make up Christianity in its most orthodox form.

SO SHOOT US!

[Johnny Stew]

Christianity doesn’t want you to deny yourself! I was simply saying that intense prayer is required in finding out the true meaning of how God wants you to live out your life...what God is calling YOU to do.

I'm not trying to beat this issue to death, but not more than a few pages ago, you said:

From the typical religous stand point you would be incouraged to serve God in a celibate life style...it can be done...and people CAN be happy feeling their void with the perfection of Gods love...a love that NO human can give you. You are not WRONG to feel what you feel. But God is calling you to something greater.

You stated that, in order to not be "in the wrong," a homosexual must deny themselves romantic and physical love, and to live a life of celebacy.

Heterosexuals can find fulfillment through a spouse AND God, but a homosexual is only allowed to find it through self-sacrifice and God.

[amber]

And secularism isn't a form of religion?

New age, tolerance for everything under the sun (including bestiality), legalize drugs, engaging in self worship, the worship of money, greed and power! The freedom to want to have abortions because you're not "ready" to have a child. Wanting to end the life of an elderly person because they are to useless and would be better off anyway. The freedom to really do whatever we want to, screw rules and basic laws of the land which have been around since the beginning of time.

THATS not a religion, THIS is not a way of life trying to be forced upon Americans who happen to have conservative values we want to fight for?
Secularism is exactly that - the absence of religion in politics. You are free, as a religious person, not to have an abortion, not to end the life of an elderly person, not to take drugs, not to worship money, greed and power.
It's as simple as that. And every person should be free to decide those things for themselves. Just as you want to be free to decide them. :shrug: it just makes sense to me. Christian people, and gay people, and every other person, should be free to decide about these issues, without the gov't telling them what they should do. How would you like it, if, someone told you you could not practice your religion? that the gov't could tell you what you could and could not do? don't you think you'd be pissed?

[seeker007nmss]

But when deemed necessary and million year old institutions come under attack (like marriage) excuse us for wanting to define what marriage is.



Marriage is not a million year old institution, and doesn't orthadox christianity say the world isn't that old?

[irishgrl]

Why is it "in your face" views. I feel that your views are "in my face."
YOU came crashing onto this board flaunting your "Christian" faith, the fact that it was FUN FUN FUN that in America if you didnt like the laws in one state you had to move or change your ways; YOU accused all Liberals of being baby murderers, your gloating that with the current Administration, the Religious Right was even closer to achieving its goal of restricting marriage to men/women only--in MY book that is "IN MY FACE".
If I wanted to be truly in YOUR face I'd tell you that Roe v. Wade is STILL the law of the land and DEAL WITH IT. That your Bible thumping turns AWAY more people than it converts because truly, you are an example of what is most egregious about fundamentalists: your narrow parameters EXCLUDE more people than they include, and that is CONTRARY to the example Jesus set.

There's an old saying: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
you should have paid attention

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'm not trying to beat this issue to death, but not more than a few pages ago, you said:



You stated that, in order to not be "in the wrong," a homosexual must deny themselves romantic and physical love, and to live a life of celebacy.

Heterosexuals can find fulfillment through a spouse AND God, but a homosexual is only allowed to find it through self-sacrifice and God.


Well when scripture repeatedly condems same-sex relationships...and then states that not everyone is made for marriage...I guess some folks are called by God to make different sacrifices than others...Your place in Heaven shall be greater than others!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

YOU came crashing onto this board flaunting your "Christian" faith, the fact that it was FUN FUN FUN that in America if you didnt like the laws in one state you had to move or change your ways; YOU accused all Liberals of being baby murderers, your gloating that with the current Administration, the Religious Right was even closer to achieving its goal of restricting marriage to men/women only--inn MY book that is "IN MY FACE".
If I wanted to be truly in YOUR face I'd tell you that Roe v. Wade is STILL the law of the land and DEAL WITH IT. That your Bible thumping turns AWAY more people than it converts because truly, you are an example of what is most egregious about fundamentalists: your narrow parameters EXCLUDE more people than they include, and that is CONTRARY to the example Jesus set.

There's an old saying: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
you should have paid attention

Well, all I was trying to do was defend some issues that I felt needed defended...and I DIDNT bring them up! The way I go about things sometimes, can come off as rude, and I have already apologized for that! I'm NOT a Bible thumper (please...Im Catholic!!). And Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional in every since of the word. All Americans have the right to what?

LIFE!

[amber]

*ahem*.....
Secularism is exactly that - the absence of religion in politics. You are free, as a religious person, not to have an abortion, not to end the life of an elderly person, not to take drugs, not to worship money, greed and power.
It's as simple as that. And every person should be free to decide those things for themselves. Just as you want to be free to decide them. :shrug: it just makes sense to me. Christian people, and gay people, and every other person, should be free to decide about these issues, without the gov't telling them what they should do. How would you like it, if, someone told you you could not practice your religion? that the gov't could tell you what you could and could not do? don't you think you'd be pissed?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

yes, you can vote according to your beliefs. Just know that those beliefs promote the descrimination and inequality to your fellow humans. Not to mention the immense harm that Bush has no problem perpetrating on the other life forms on this earth.
apparently the fact that jesus said that we will be judged by how we treat the least of us has no effect on you.
Yes, by all means, you have the right to vote to take away rights from other humans/creatures that god created.
P.S.? Our ancestors died for freedom from religious persecution. freedom of religion. get it?

What gets me is that most liberals want to get rid of the Christ in Christmas...like in the case (I forgot which state) where the school completely did away with any mention of Christmas in their play, but left in Kwanza and Hanukkah …what is that all about?

Where are our rights there?

[irishgrl]

Well, all I was trying to do was defend some issues that I felt needed defended...and I DIDNT bring them up! The way I go about things sometimes, can come off as rude, and I have already apologized for that! I'm NOT a Bible thumper (please...Im Catholic!!). And Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional in every since of the word. All Americans have the right to what?

LIFE!

as I recall it was LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS......
LIBERTY is FREEDOM.
Roe v. Wade is CONSTITUTIONAL, based on the right of a person to have autonomy over their own person, place and effects. btw: I should warn you that among other things I am a Paralegal, and have studied INTENSLY the subject of abortion and Roe v. Wade. I can hold my own against the Lawyers and I hold the trump card, I am a WOMAN and it is MY Body I am talking about. Neither YOU nor any of your Groups have the right to tell ANY woman what they may do with their OWN body. Because I tell you, I have felt the effects of pregnancy. I KNOW first hand just who makes the ultimate sacrifice in order to bring a baby into this world. You, in your male body have NO CLUE. So dont start that argument with ME because you WONT win.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Marriage is not a million year old institution, and doesn't orthadox christianity say the world isn't that old?

No! Your thinking of Jewish Orthodoxy.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

as I recall it was LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS......
LIBERTY is FREEDOM.
Roe v. Wade is CONSTITUTIONAL, based on the right of a person to have autonomy over their own person, place and effects.

NO you are contradicting yourself.

Do you have the CHOICE to murder me...Yes...but you are denying me my RIGHTS to LIFE LIBERTY AND MY PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS...

When you murder that baby...you are robbing him/her early own. Its no ones right to murder another innocent human being.

THAT...is the law of the land.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ok guys...Im tired

Im going to bed :)

Hope you guys have a good night and a good day tomorrow!

Take care, God Bless.

[amber]

What gets me is that most liberals want to get rid of the Christ in Christmas...like in the case (I forgot which state) where the school completely did away with any mention of Christmas in their play, but left in Kwanza and Hanukkah …what is that all about?

Where are our rights there?
I don't know. If you bring up an actual article or facts, i might be able to answer. I have to say, for the most part, i hardly see Christian religions being stomped on. but again, I don't know until i see where that actually happened...
that doesn't really address my point, though. And most liberals don't want to get rid of anything like that. They usually just want an equal representation of other solstice holidays, practiced by non christians. :shrug:
But, can you imagine, what if all throughout american history, you were Christian, but everyone only celebrated Kwaanza? Or Hanukkah? You might long for some representation, too. And, no, i'm not saying that getting rid of Christmas mention is right (if that's true)

[Johnny Stew]

Well when scripture repeatedly condems same-sex relationships...and then states that not everyone is made for marriage...I guess some folks are called by God to make different sacrifices than others...Your place in Heaven shall be greater than others!

Now, see, that last sentence proves what many of my friends already believe... that gay people ARE better than others. ;)

But, again... and seriously... the words in the bible "condemning" homosexuality, were NOT God's words, but the words of human males.
As I've tried to explain over and over again, it was the words of these very same human males, which also promoted slavery, human sacrifices, female subjugation, and countless other things that we no longer in good conscience follow.

Why people feel the need, after all of that, to STILL hold fast and true to the equally archaic and ignorant comments made about homosexuality, is beyond me.

And, again... homosexuality does NOT go against the Ten Commandments.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't know. If you bring up an actual article or facts, i might be able to answer. I have to say, for the most part, i hardly see Christian religions being stomped on. but again, I don't know until i see where that actually happened...
that doesn't really address my point, though. And most liberals don't want to get rid of anything like that. They usually just want an equal representation of other solstice holidays, practiced by non christians. :shrug:
But, can you imagine, what if all throughout american history, you were Christian, but everyone only celebrated Kwaanza? Or Hanukkah? You might long for some representation, too. And, no, i'm not saying that getting rid of Christmas mention is right (if that's true)

And so the way to settle this is to get rid of any mention of the most common religion but allow it to continue for the other religious holidays. Where is the justice in that?

[amber]

Ok guys...Im tired

Im going to bed :)

Hope you guys have a good night and a good day tomorrow!

Take care, God Bless.
okay, goodnight. I'm going to sing Stevie at Karaoke night at the gay bar by my house, with my girlfriend whom i've slept with... :lol: :laugh:
"I. said. yeah. well. whattamysupposedtodo!" :laugh: :wavey:
even though i'm straight...
:)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Now, see, that last sentence proves what many of my friends already believe... that gay people ARE better than others. ;)

But, again... and seriously... the words in the bible "condemning" homosexuality, were NOT God's words, but the words of human males.
As I've tried to explain over and over again, it was the words of these very same human males, which also promoted slavery, human sacrifices, female subjugation, and countless other things that we no longer in good conscience follow.

Why people feel the need, after all of that, to STILL hold fast and true to the equally archaic and ignorant comments made about homosexuality, is beyond me.

And, again... homosexuality does NOT go against the Ten Commandments.

Note...the Ten Commandments aren't you only rules God gave us :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

okay, goodnight. I'm going to sing Stevie at Karaoke night at the gay bar by my house, with my girlfriend whom i've slept with... :lol: :laugh:
"I. said. yeah. well. whattamysupposedtodo!" :laugh: :wavey:
even though i'm straight...
:)

LOL...OK..have fun! And dont forget...you have to sing some Chris songs! :]

[amber]

And so the way to settle this is to get rid of any mention of the most common religion but allow it to continue for the other religious holidays. Where is the justice in that?
I didn't say that was justice, i asked you to present the facts in this particular case that you are citing. And for the record, I wouldn't agree with them foisting their religion either. if they do that, and it's not a purely Jewish, or purely uh...AFA Kwaanza school, then i would disagree with that too. But so far, i don't know that that has happened, for sure.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Now, see, that last sentence proves what many of my friends already believe... that gay people ARE better than others. ;)

But, again... and seriously... the words in the bible "condemning" homosexuality, were NOT God's words, but the words of human males.
As I've tried to explain over and over again, it was the words of these very same human males, which also promoted slavery, human sacrifices, female subjugation, and countless other things that we no longer in good conscience follow.

Why people feel the need, after all of that, to STILL hold fast and true to the equally archaic and ignorant comments made about homosexuality, is beyond me.

And, again... homosexuality does NOT go against the Ten Commandments.

And who are you to tell any bible believing Christians that its all made up trash...God didn't inspire anyone! Prepared to be stoned! LOL

[amber]

LOL...OK..have fun! And dont forget...you have to sing some Chris songs! :]
Noway! there's none on there anyway. Only chris songs i would do are probably...Isn't it midnight, Heart of Stone, and Say that you love me.
they only have Silver Springs, SDMHA, and Dreams...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I didn't say that was justice, i asked you to present the facts in this particular case that you are citing. And for the record, I wouldn't agree with them foisting their religion either. if they do that, and it's not a purely Jewish, or purely uh...AFA Kwaanza school, then i would disagree with that too. But so far, i don't know that that has happened, for sure.

K, tomorrow Ill try to look for the article about it. It was all over the news this past christmas!

[estranged4life]

Not even Rita Cosby and Stevie Nicks TOGETHER?!! :eek:

LOL

in my life, One serious guarantee...If I ever lost the ability to enjoy music I will prepare to take a dirtnap by my own hands.

Ya can take my sight, my speech, my ability to walk or write...But take my ability to hear and go ahead and pass me the cyanide tablets cause it will be checkout time from the hotel known as life :nod:

Sex for music is a no brainer...Music wins over all!!!!Music is the one constant in my life, has been for over 34 years now...Will be til the day I die :nod:

[irishgrl]

NO you are contradicting yourself.

Do you have the CHOICE to murder me...Yes...but you are denying me my RIGHTS to LIFE LIBERTY AND MY PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS...

When you murder that baby...you are robbing him/her early own. Its no ones right to murder another innocent human being.

THAT...is the law of the land.
first of all, it is NOT the law of the land. currently the law of the land allows a woman to get an abortion in the first trimester.

second of all: just WHERE do you think this bundle of cells/tissue gets the raw material it needs to form? YOU GOT IT--the MOTHER'S BODY. In Nature, when one organism feeds off another or depends upon another for its sustenance, it is parasitism. I know of women who have lost teeth, hair and bone mass due to the needs of the growing baby. Others have had to endure pregnancy related diseases. still others become deathly ill from incompatibilities evident between mother and child's systems and have needed medications to avoid spontaneous abortions! There are unhealthy fluctuations in weight gain/loss; there are unexplained separations of placenta from womb. To FORCE a woman to endure the physical risks is bad enough but what about the financial hardships that many young mothers face? many of whom are alone because males in this country are sadly bereft of any sense of responsibility....as a Social Worker, I see THAT too.....so, the result is a swelling of the ranks of public assistance! THEN there is the emotional/mental angle: what about a very young mother? or one who's family is disapproving and therefore distant?
Your "religious" approach to this issue cannot solve all of the problems and to FORCE women to have a baby when for one reason or another it is not workable is legalizing a form of slavery.

[Johnny Stew]

And who are you to tell any bible believing Christians that its all made up trash...God didn't inspire anyone! Prepared to be stoned! LOL

I don't recall where I've EVER said, or even implied, that it's all made up trash.

In fact, I'm one of the few liberals around here who defends the importance of the good that can be gleaned from the Bible.

I just don't happen to agree with the notion that everything in the Bible should be taken so literally. I also don't agree with the prevailing notion that some things can be conveniently overlooked or dispelled because we've progressed as a society, but other things... like the idea that homosexuality is "unnatural"... should be held to, simply because they make people uncomfortable.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

first of all, it is NOT the law of the land. currently the law of the land allows a woman to get an abortion in the first trimester.

second of all: just WHERE do you think this bundle of cells/tissue gets the raw material it needs to form? YOU GOT IT--the MOTHER'S BODY. In Nature, when one organism feeds off another or depends upon another for its sustenance, it is parasitism. I know of women who have lost teeth, hair and bone mass due to the needs of the growing baby. Others have had to endure pregnancy related diseases. still others become deathly ill from incompatibilities evident between mother and child's systems and have needed medications to avoid spontaneous abortions! There are unhealthy fluctuations in weight gain/loss; there are unexplained separations of placenta from womb. To FORCE a woman to endure the physical risks is bad enough but what about the financial hardships that many young mothers face? many of whom are alone because males in this country are sadly bereft of any sense of responsibility....as a Social Worker, I see THAT too.....so, the result is a swelling of the ranks of public assistance! THEN there is the emotional/mental angle: what about a very young mother? or one who's family is disapproving and therefore distant?
Your "religious" approach to this issue cannot solve all of the problems and to FORCE women to have a baby when for one reason or another it is not workable is legalizing a form of slavery.

My bad, wanting an individual to live is slavery I’m sorry...

What you just posted has to be one of the sickest things I have ever read!

Abortion is one of the most bestial things that exist in our society today!

[amber]

My bad, wanting an individual to live is slavery I’m sorry...

What you just posted has to be one of the sickest things I have ever read!

Abortion is one of the most bestial things that exist in our society today!
No, it's not. to me, the worse crime is raising a child poorly. And by poorly, I mean a child who is neglected, may do heinous crimes later, may have a terrible life. Organisms live and die, daily, of all species. It's part of the life cycle.
And, what's the problem, if you think these clumps of cells have souls, wouldn't those souls just go to god anyway?
do you support the death penalty?

[irishgrl]

My bad, wanting an individual to live is slavery I?m sorry...
Why is it that the Baby's life is more important than the mother's?

Abortion is a sad thing and should be a LAST resort and NEVER used as a form of birth control BUT: the thing I want to get across to you and the thing I wish people would all understand is that NOT ONE OF US HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL ANOTHER PERSON HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES. If you want to smoke, Fine! if you dont want to, fine! If you drink or not, thats up to you! You pick your friends, your tv shows, your underwear. You choose big things and small things every day of your life, and no one interferes! If you dont believe in abortion, fine! But dont try to impose your belief on someone else...and for the record: Ive been pregnant 3 times and have 3 beautiful children. I CHOSE NOT TO HAVE AN ABORTION. Pro-Choice doesnt mean Pro-Death.

having read Amber's response, I want to add, Every baby should be a WANTED baby. Each child that DOES make it into this world deserves to have a decent life, be raised by parent(s) who are prepared financially, mentally, emotionally to give that child the very best (s)he can in terms of upbringing. It is a huge responsibility and therefore, only people that are in a position to be responsible should undertake this task.

[amber]

having read Amber's response, I want to add, Every baby should be a WANTED baby. Each child that DOES make it into this world deserves to have a decent life, be raised by parent(s) who are prepared financially, mentally, emotionally to give that child the very best (s)he can in terms of upbringing. It is a huge responsibility and therefore, only people that are in a position to be responsible should undertake this task.
Amen and hallelujah.
you know what else goads me? The way some repubs are against abortion, but against welfare, too. Hello? Hello? anyone home in there?

[seeker007nmss]

No! Your thinking of Jewish Orthodoxy.

aw, I stand corrected.

[irishgrl]

Amen and hallelujah.
you know what else goads me? The way some repubs are against abortion, but against welfare, too. Hello? Hello? anyone home in there?

what about the restrictions on BIRTH CONTROL???? lessee: no birth control, enforced pregnancy, NO DIVORCE if pregnant, no abortion.....women will be nothing more than brood mares--the old male fantasy: keep em barefoot and knocked up! thats ONE way to take back control of society: keep em out of classrooms, out of boardrooms, and back into bedrooms. with no voice. like I said, the 19th century is looming closer all the time....
:mad:

[amber]

what about the restrictions on BIRTH CONTROL???? lessee: no birth control, enforced pregnancy, NO DIVORCE if pregnant, no abortion.....women will be nothing more than brood mares--the old male fantasy: keep em barefoot and knocked up! thats ONE way to take back control of society: keep em out of classrooms, out of boardrooms, and back into bedrooms. with no voice. like I said, the 19th century is looming closer all the time....
:mad:
God, it makes me sick. I can't believe the articles i read recently on the restriction of the morning after pill. :mad:
yep, yep, and yep. :mad:

[irishgrl]

I see that new threads have been started re: the failure of this type of discussion to really change anyone's mind, and ya know? its true. Im NEVER going to see things the way Brown Eyes sees them and I am equally certain, he is NEVER going to see things the way I see them. And that's ok.

[amber]

This is was infuriates me though. What you've said here is fine, agree to disagree and we live our own lives in different manners. The difference is when a group are enforcing restrictions upon others based on their beliefs. This is when I don't think it's enough to agree to disagree. The government has no place in a woman's uterus. Someone else's morals should not be used to subject a group of people to a restricted and deprived existence.
exactly. I think that's most people's point. Like, do whatever the hell you want, just don't tell me what i hafta do! And don't vote for gov't that wants to tell me what i should do! Seriously, it's in our Constitution... :p :shrug:

[irishgrl]

This is was infuriates me though. What you've said here is fine, agree to disagree and we live our own lives in different manners. The difference is when a group are enforcing restrictions upon others based on their beliefs. This is when I don't think it's enough to agree to disagree. The government has no place in a woman's uterus. Someone else's morals should not be used to subject a group of people to a restricted and deprived existence.
Lux, believe me, I and others have said this, quite STRONGLY. I can tell you this much: I dont just *talk* about this, I take action. I contact my elected representatives and let them know just how I feel. I write to my local paper and express my point of view. I have joined with the CA chapter of NOW to make sure my voice IS heard. And, we've managed to stop them each time they've tried to whittle our rights further. But, the truth of the matter is: unless today's young women SEE the danger they face, the freedoms I have had will go the way of the dinosaur. We've passed the torch, now its up to you younger folks. I pray its not too late.

[irishgrl]

Hmmm, don't look at me. Not what you wanted to hear I'm sure. The only feminists I've known have steered me towards misogyny and the majority of the females I've known have lead me to confusion and an appreciate for the presence of males. I still believe those things you mentioned but I couldn't fulfil the role like the many fiesty females I know, or did know until I ran away screaming. I guess that's the point of submission.
if its not for you, its not for you. thats ok. I myself continue to fight the good fight any way I can. Hopefully there are enough young women that see the handwriting on the wall and have the balls to say GET YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY. Subservience for women is a patriarchal notion borrowed from a Middle Eastern culture that hasnt evolved in hundreds of years. Any return to that way of thinking is a step BACKWARDS.

[SuzeQuze]

Please. So you think as a result of these intense conversations with God, we'll all be called to the same views as you?

There are thousands of religions in this world and you cannot say who is wrong or right. There is no such thing as a shared reality.


There are, and they are all "right". People see God only as they can understand Him. There are other divine books in this world besides the Bible, the Koran for one. In it are the "saints" that Muslims believe in. These books were written to help shape a civil society. None of them are perfect. The Bible is not a perfect book for it is man's interpretation of God. Therefore, being that man is imperfect, the Bible itself is flawed.

I was very confused about religion for many years. Then I began learning about Eastern religions which was fascinating. I asked myself which religion was right? All of them seem to believe theirs to be the right one. Then I felt what I thought was a divine thought, that they are all correct. Again, we see God only as we can understand Him.

[SuzeQuze]

in my life, One serious guarantee...If I ever lost the ability to enjoy music I will prepare to take a dirtnap by my own hands.

Ya can take my sight, my speech, my ability to walk or write...But take my ability to hear and go ahead and pass me the cyanide tablets cause it will be checkout time from the hotel known as life :nod:

Sex for music is a no brainer...Music wins over all!!!!Music is the one constant in my life, has been for over 34 years now...Will be til the day I die :nod:

Same here. Music has been my lifeline. However, sex and music together? Now we're talking! ;)

[SuzeQuze]

I’m just curious here. How many of you have taken time to read the bible?

I know I asked this before and challenged you to try a PC bible study program, but my question got buried in comments that looked like they we’re designed to escape the answer. JMO :lol:

Well, I read all of the passages about homosexuality that Brown Eyes recommended last night. The only one that was conclusive was Lecivitus in the "abomination" line already stated in this thread. All other passages were very vague. The commonality of all of these passages was that all sex, except between man and wife, is a sin. It doesn't make homosexuality a worse sin than "fornication". Therefore, you're a dirty sinner just like any of the gay people on this board, and so am I. :p

[GateandGarden]

I would rather have more music to listen than sex, Sad but amazingly true!!!!! :thumbsup::laugh: :lol: I have to say that at this point in my life I feel the same way. :thumbsup:

[The Tower]

but I can't abandon my beliefs...its part of who I am.

And that is just it.

Christians can't abandon their beliefs and homosexuals cannot abandon their orientation. Both examples are "part of" each individual. Homosexuals cannot change their orientation anymore than heterosexuals can- anyone who believes that is deluded.

And so, the impasse. However, I will point out that homosexuality is a part of the human condition and has been around since the dawn of humanity- far, far longer than the concept of christianity.

I'm betting my money on the fags to win.... ;)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

This is was infuriates me though. What you've said here is fine, agree to disagree and we live our own lives in different manners. The difference is when a group are enforcing restrictions upon others based on their beliefs. This is when I don't think it's enough to agree to disagree. The government has no place in a woman's uterus. Someone else's morals should not be used to subject a group of people to a restricted and deprived existence.

and a person also has no RIGHT to take away a life. A growing person inside of you that has no voice and no choice!

But im really tired of discussing these topics. We all agree to disagree and I think we should really leave it at that for our own sanity. :thumbsup:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Amen and hallelujah.
you know what else goads me? The way some repubs are against abortion, but against welfare, too. Hello? Hello? anyone home in there?

Well when people continually abuse welfare and social services because they "can't work" or "can't find a job" that BUGS me! There are people who need it...but there are also people who USE it.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

No, it's not. to me, the worse crime is raising a child poorly. And by poorly, I mean a child who is neglected, may do heinous crimes later, may have a terrible life. Organisms live and die, daily, of all species. It's part of the life cycle.
And, what's the problem, if you think these clumps of cells have souls, wouldn't those souls just go to god anyway?
do you support the death penalty?

Have we ever heard of adoption!

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Have we ever heard of adoption!I have a buddy in Florida that adopted 9 children. I know a family here in Maryland that adopted 12. I know another family here that has adopted 2 and plans to adopt more. :blob2:

I had to edit to add this. The 3 families that have adopted or are adopting are Christian families. :nod:

[heyjupiter678]

and a person also has no RIGHT to take away a life.
So, you're against the death penalty, then?

[heyjupiter678]

I have a buddy in Florida that adopted 9 children. I know a family here in Maryland that adopted 12. I know another family here that has adopted 2 and plans to adopt more. :blob2:
Good for them. That's really admirable.
I had to edit to add this. The 3 families that have adopted or are adopting are Christian families. :nod:
And?

If my boyfriend and I ever have children, it will be through adoption -- and we're atheists.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

If my boyfriend and I ever have children, it will be through adoption -- and we're atheists.Good for you. :blob2: What will you do if the children want to learn about God?

[irishgrl]

Are Mary and I actually in agreeance?
hey! it can happen! ;)

[irishgrl]

Ive said I realize we are just going to have to agree to disagree, and I see you've said that too. I am not trying to resurrect the argument again but I want to point out that the fundamental flaw with your position from where I stand is that you and others like you subordinate the rights of the mother to the rights of the baby. Dont you see? little by little the MOTHER (WOMAN) is losing her voice and I OBJECT MOST VOCIFEROUSLY to that happening. I value the lives of children, I am a child advocate. But I am first and foremost a WOMAN, and I will NOT stand Idly by while MEN systematically chip away at WOMEN'S RIGHTS. I WILL NOT. And to place one value system above all others or to force a nation to adhere to it is contrary to what this Nation stands for. Your megalomania must STOP. You have the right to live YOUR LIFE how you see fit, not tell others how they should live. You have the right to BELIEVE what you want, not tell others how to believe. You will not change my mind, I will not change yours. but, I guarantee you, you will sow the wind and reap the whirlwind if you persist in this folly. Word. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

And that is just it.

Christians can't abandon their beliefs and homosexuals cannot abandon their orientation. Both examples are "part of" each individual. Homosexuals cannot change their orientation anymore than heterosexuals can- anyone who believes that is deluded.

And so, the impasse. However, I will point out that homosexuality is a part of the human condition and has been around since the dawn of humanity- far, far longer than the concept of christianity.

I'm betting my money on the fags to win.... ;)I don't know--many of us believe that one is born gay and I've never heard anyone say that one is born Christian, or any other religion, for that matter. I've known many who have changed their religions, so I don't see the relation, except for the fact that both religion and sexual orientation are important to people. :shrug: But, of course I agree with you on the last part. :)

[heyjupiter678]

Good for you. :blob2:
You didn't answer my question. What kind of point were you trying to make by pointing out that the adopting parents were Christians?
What will you do if the children want to learn about God?
Whether the children bring up the topic or not, we will teach them about many different religions equally -- not putting one above the other, so they'll know that there are a myriad of beliefs all over the world. And if, when they're older, they decide they'd like to know more about one or all of them, we will oblige them. It's their choice.

[GateandGarden]

Whether the children bring up the topic or not, we will teach them about many different religions equally -- not putting one above the other, so they'll know that there are a myriad of beliefs all over the world. And if, when they're older, they decide they'd like to know more about one or all of them, we will oblige them. It's their choice.I think that's a good idea. :)

[DrummerDeanna]

What if your children want to learn about L. Ron Hubbard :eek :eek: :laugh:

[dissention]

What if your children want to learn about L. Ron Hubbard :eek: :eek: :laugh:

:laugh: That made me let out one helluva gutbuster, Deanna. :laugh:

I simply can't imagine a kid reading Dianetics and asking for an E-Machine reading. :eek:

[heyjupiter678]

I think that's a good idea. :)
Thanks, Hillary. :xoxo:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

You didn't answer my question. What kind of point were you trying to make by pointing out that the adopting parents were Christians?

I’m a believer and thought I’d add it. You’re the one making a big deal out of it. :shrug:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I will NOT stand Idly by while MEN systematically chip away at WOMEN'S RIGHTS. I didnt know it was just men. :shrug:

[heyjupiter678]

I’m a believer and thought I’d add it. You’re the one making a big deal out of it. :shrug:
You specifically brought it up, so I thought I'd ask. No big deal.

[irishgrl]

I didnt know it was just men. :shrug:

alright, I'll qualify that to "primarily" MEN. The majority of our elected officials/policy makers are MEN.

[irishgrl]

I didnt know it was just men. :shrug:
even if it is only ONE man, its still unacceptable if it takes away a woman's rights.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I’ve got a question. If a person finds their love for an animal has a deeper meaning in their life, and they choose to have an intimate relationship with say “a camel” :lol:what would you all think of that?

How about if they we’re kicked out of their country and the US said “Sure come to America and bring your camel too”. :shrug:

It’s a far out question but anything’s possible these days.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

even if it is only ONE man, its still unacceptable if it takes away a woman's rights.Oh sorry. It looked like you typed "men" to me. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

I’ve got a question. If a person finds their love for an animal has a deeper meaning in their life, and they choose to have an intimate relationship with say “a camel” :lol:what would you all think of that?

How about if they we’re kicked out of their country and the US said “Sure come to America and bring your camel too”. :shrug:

It’s a far out question but anything’s possible these days. Where do we draw the line.

Ugh - please tell me you're not one of the people who likens homosexuality to pedophilia and beastiality :rolleyes: What a ridiculous argument.

The difference/s well - homosexual relationships are between two consenting adults - not between one adult with a sickness and a second entity that has no say for themselves....

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Ugh - please tell me you're not one of the people who likens homosexuality to pedophilia and beastiality :rolleyes: What a ridiculous argument.

The difference/s well - homosexual relationships are between two consenting adults - not between one adult with a sickness and a second entity that has no say for themselves....What if the camel could talk and had lots of money? :lol:

It was just a question. Why are you making it out to be something it doesnt need to be? I thought it was funny. Sheesh no sense of humor. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

What if the camel could talk and had lots of money? :lol:

It was just a question. Why are you making it out to be something it doesnt need to be? I thought it was funny. Sheesh no sense of humor. :shrug:

Okay - I was just addressing your question dude - and asking if you are one of those people who likens homosexuality to beastiality...

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

To liken homosexuality to beastiality is a big deal.Where did I liken that? :shrug:

Heck I have work to do. :lol:

[The Tower]

What if the camel could talk and had lots of money? :lol:

It was just a question. Why are you making it out to be something it doesnt need to be? I thought it was funny. Sheesh no sense of humor. :shrug:

Let's just get this humor thing out of the way.

Hey Mr. 1/2 Insane, we all know you are a heterosexual male. Imagine, if you will, that the current way that society views heterosexuality and homosexuality were reversed. Suppose that society was imposing to you that your love and desire of women was abhorrent and that you were expected to copulate with, develop a relationship with and live with a man and repress and/or give up your attraction to women because it was "wrong". Suppose then that despite all the societal pressure to "change" that you continued to life your life as a heterosexual. Suppose then that society's homosexual population decided to compare your heterosexuality and love of women to that of bestiality and copulation with animals.

Would you find that funny?

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Okay - I was just addressing your question dude - and asking if you are one of those people who likens homosexuality to beastiality...No I'm not. :shrug: It was a humor question. Thought I'd try to break the ice but I see today is a bad day for a few of you. :rolleyes: I gotta get back to work. :xoxo:

[The Tower]

Where did I liken that? :shrug:

The "where do we draw the line?" comment inferred it.

[SuzeQuze]

The "where do we draw the line?" comment inferred it.
:nod: It would be disingenuous to deny that.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

The "where do we draw the line?" comment inferred it.You sir are 100% correct. My bad. :mad: I typed it before I thought and “I’m sorry”. I’ll remove that part.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ive said I realize we are just going to have to agree to disagree, and I see you've said that too. I am not trying to resurrect the argument again but I want to point out that the fundamental flaw with your position from where I stand is that you and others like you subordinate the rights of the mother to the rights of the baby. Dont you see? little by little the MOTHER (WOMAN) is losing her voice and I OBJECT MOST VOCIFEROUSLY to that happening. I value the lives of children, I am a child advocate. But I am first and foremost a WOMAN, and I will NOT stand Idly by while MEN systematically chip away at WOMEN'S RIGHTS. I WILL NOT. And to place one value system above all others or to force a nation to adhere to it is contrary to what this Nation stands for. Your megalomania must STOP. You have the right to live YOUR LIFE how you see fit, not tell others how they should live. You have the right to BELIEVE what you want, not tell others how to believe. You will not change my mind, I will not change yours. but, I guarantee you, you will sow the wind and reap the whirlwind if you persist in this folly. Word. :shrug:

It always has to be a WOMENS issue. It has nothing to do with Women. Guess what, If God had chosen a man as the one to bear children than a MAN would not have the choice to kill his child. It has nothing to do with putting anyone elses rights AHEAD of anyone else. It has to do with the fact that the child deserves to live. It is the right of every human being.

[irishgrl]

Oh sorry. It looked like you typed "men" to me. :shrug:
but I qualified it!
Im willing to let this go folks..........

[Brwn_eyes0511]

alright, I'll qualify that to "primarily" MEN. The majority of our elected officials/policy makers are MEN.

You are foolish if you believe that only ones elected in office want to get rid of abortion...the majority of Americans think it is murder and uncalled for. It represents everything bestial in society.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

To liken homosexuality to beastiality is a big deal.

Well when in scripture they are both treated as Abominations ...hmmm

[The Tower]

Well when in scripture they are both treated as Abominations ...hmmm

Your ignorance is astounding.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Holy f*ck, if you believe that you ought to never pretend you have a ounce of respect for other human beings. I'm not homosexual but you've offended me.

Well sorry. I have respect but you are just to clouded with hate and a "passion" for tolerance that you are intolerant of someone else’s beliefs.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Your ignorance is astounding.

and your ignorance is astounding to me.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Damn right I'm not tolerant of that belief.

And this is what separates Christians from secularist America.

[DrummerDeanna]

Well sorry. I have respect but you are just to clouded with hate and a "passion" for tolerance that you are intolerant of someone else’s beliefs.

When someone else's beliefs are hateful such as yours - then yes I guess we are "clouded"

By the way - you've obviously missed the whole point of Christianit :distress: Guess what - scripture is not supposed to be used a weapon or as an attack on others...

Also - eating meat on Friday used to be considered an "abomination"

I think I'm going to go the unoriginal route and just second Tower's notion that your ignorance IS astounding...

[irishgrl]

You are foolish if you believe that only ones elected in office want to get rid of abortion...the majority of Americans think it is murder and uncalled for. It represents everything bestial in society.
The majority of Americans do NOT think it is murder, only a very vocal MINORITY. A MINORITY that insists on foisting its narrow views on the rest of us. Also, you need to READ better: I didnt say only our elected officials feel this way, but rather that the majority of our elected officials were MEN.
PLEASE PAY ATTENTION.
btw: Abortion is NOT bestial. you need to look up "bestial".

and fyi: outlawing abortion will not eliminate the procedure, it will only force it underground....women have been terminating pregnancies for eons. In fact, the medical procedure we NOW use was legalized to prevent the numerous deaths from desperate women who used coat hangers or knitting needles or herbal remedies and the like. You are incredibly IGNORANT about this issue, and should do more research.

[DrummerDeanna]

And this is what separates Christians from secularist America.

Umm...no - not secularist America - Extremist Christian America perhaps...