Capital Punishment

[GateandGarden]

I thought y'all might want to talk about this. Perhaps? It's on my mind since it's the other social issue I'm really passionate about in addition to gay marriage, and one of the few things I can safely say I'll never change my mind about--I am strongly opposed to it. I just found out that a good friend of mine supports it, and I can't help but be disturbed. I've known her for awhile and I never knew that she supported it because I make a point of not talking about it because it upsets me so much, more than the gay marriage issue, actually, and that one really affects me on a more personal level. (Whew--sorry about the run-on there!) So, I wanted to see what everyone had to say, and I'll bow out of the discussion after this initial post because I don't want to argue or offend anyone else. I can't trust myself to be mature, but I'd like to just read what others have to say.

Hillary

[estranged4life]

I thought y'all might want to talk about this. Perhaps? It's on my mind since it's the other social issue I'm really passionate about in addition to gay marriage, and one of the few things I can safely say I'll never change my mind about--I am strongly opposed to it. I just found out that a good friend of mine supports it, and I can't help but be disturbed. I've known her for awhile and I never knew that she supported it because I make a point of not talking about it because it upsets me so much, more than the gay marriage issue, actually, and that one really affects me on a more personal level. (Whew--sorry about the run-on there!) So, I wanted to see what everyone had to say, and I'll bow out of the discussion after this initial post because I don't want to argue or offend anyone else. I can't trust myself to be mature, but I'd like to just read what others have to say.

Hillary

I have no opinion on Capital Punishment, But Tim McVeigh got what he deserved...Sadly anything that could have pointed to a larger conspiracy involving the OKC bombing went to the grave with McVeigh (Who waved his appeals and was put to death rather quickly...)

Brian j.

[Gailh]

Here in the UK we don't have capital punishment, although I think some people would like to see its return.

I am against it mainly because of the miscarriages of justice we have had here over the years.

There are several completely innocent people who would have lost their lives if we still had capital punishment.

As for gay marriage I'm not sure you could have a marriage as such but a legal recognition of a gay relationship would be fine by me. There have been some instances reported in the press here where a couple who have been together in a stable relationship for decades and if one of them becomes seriously ill the other has no say in their treatment or whether the life support machine could be switched off if that became necessary.

I think some people are against it because they think it makes a mockery of the institution of marriage. Well we straight people can do that all on our own thank you! Brittney Spears take a bow!

Gail

[gldstwmn]

Opposed. :)

[DrummerDeanna]

I have very mixed feelings on Capital Punishment...mostly because I haven't thought about it until pretty recently...

Mostly I feel very opposed to it - but as Brian brought up there are folk like McVeigh...who perpetrated a really heinous crime....but I don't know...killing someone in punishment for killing someone? no...I don't like that whole thing...

I remember hearing "an eye for an eye" a lot....and a good friend of mine brought this up - she said that it's NOT an eye for an eye - if it were...rapists would be raped, robbers would be robbed etc...I thought that was an interesting way to look at it...

Pretty much I just don't think it makes much sense to kill someone for killing someone..."it's wrong to kill...so we're gonna kill you..." :shrug:

[EnchantedSLN]

Against it. IMO government sanctioned killing has a brutalizing effect on society that cancels out any deterrent value it could possibly have (if it has any to begin with; studies suggest that it doesn't.) Not to mention death penalty cases cost more in court appeals and administrative expenses than life sentences do. Plus, plenty of innocent people have already been put to death (hence the moratoriums in several states). I don't trust any government enough to give them that authority and hope they'll get it right "most of the time."

[estranged4life]

Plus, plenty of innocent people have already been put to death (hence the moratoriums in several states). I don't trust any government enough to give them that authority and hope they'll get it right "most of the time."

that is one of the main ongoing cases happening in OKC, Which involves the former chief chemist who falsified records of several death penalty cases, Some of which turned out later that an innocent person was put to death due to her falsified records.

But as for McVeigh...Screw him, He was a soldier til the end who thought of those who died in the Murrah building as "Colateral", So I have no problem with his execution (At least Terry Nichols was spared the death penalty...But his case ended rather strangely. At least he is man enuff to FINALLY admit his involvement after being sentenced to life in a Federal facility.)

Brian j.

[DeeGeMe]

I'm opposed. For several reasons:

There have been many studies done which show that minorities, and the poor are much more likely to be given the death penalty than more affluent, non-minority criminals who have committed similar crimes. That in itself is just wrong-there shold be similar punishments for similar crimes. The difference is that white and wealthy criminals are often better able to afford better legal defense teams that either spare their lives or completly get them off the hook (O.J., anyone?).

In the past several years, thanks to DNA, many people who had spent decades on death row have been found to be innocent of the crimes. Most of these people shared two things in common: they were poor and they were minority members.

I live in South Carolina. This week marks the 10th anniversary of the Susan Smith incident where she drowned her two children so she could be single and gain the sympathy and attention of her ex-boyfriend. That was not a death penalty case here in South Carolina--and we like to give folks the death penalty here. If that wasn't a death penalty case, please tell me what should be???? Her stepfather had $$$$ and her family had influence and she didn't even receive a life sentence for her crimes!

Pee Wee Gaskins (so-called because he stood about 5'1" remains one of SC's most infamous criminals. He killed 9 people because he thought they deserved to die (gays, people who had been involved in an inter-racial relationship, the child that resulted from that inter-racial relationship, people who had screwed him over in business, etc.). He had his own little death penalty court going there without the benefit of a judge or jury.

Anyway, for none of these nine murders did Pee Wee receive the death penalty! What crime earned him the death penalty? Killing someone who was already on death row! Long story short--the son of a couple who had been murdered by a guy in a robbery gone wrong, hired Pee Wee to kill said robber/murderer because he felt the wheels of justice weren't moving fast enough to suit him. Pee Wee rigged up a homemade bomb (unbelievably, he had been made a trustee in the prison and somehow gained access to the materials) and blew the robber/murderer up. For that murder, South Carolina's most infamous murderer, finally received the death penalty! For killing someone who was already on death row. WTF????? Does that make sense to anyone?

I'd like to see the death penalty reserved strictly for those who commit acts of terrorism such as 9/11 and the Oklahoma City Bombings. I don't think that the death penalty serves as a deterrant for other criminals and I think it's much more severe punishment to have spend 30 or 40 years in a jail cell.

[Mad4stevie]

I used to be in support of it, until I took a law school class devoted entirely to the topic of Capital Punishment. After that, I had a very different view. It is amazing how much education can change your opinion.

Some things I didn't know or realize before my class in law school:

- Mentally retarded people can be executed
- It is not a deterrent because most people who commit murder do not really account for it in their "decisionmaking"
- It is not a deterrent because it is not a "swift and certain" punishment (i.e. the appeals drag on for years and your sentence could be commuted like Charles Manson, on legal technicalities)
- Lethal injection is not the quickest and surest method of execution - firing squad and hanging are
- It costs more in capital punishment cases because of all the automatic appeals, than it does to put the person in prison for life

However, my true feelings are that I am very uncomfortable with state-sanctioned killing. I think on some level it is like "playing God". And I don't feel that anyone should do that.

[GypsySorcerer]

I have been back and forth on the issue, for reasons already mentioned by others. I do not think it is a deterrent and I do think it is barbaric. I guess I can say that if it were up to me to flip the switch, I wouldn't. But it's not exactly heartbreaking to see someone liked McVeigh executed.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I used to be totally in support of it, but now I'm kind of on the fense...I'm now questioning my support on many things in life, so....My reasons for being FOR it : people like Osama Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, DC Snipers, etc... I have no mercy for them....and if say I had a little baby, and it was brutally murdered, do you think I would be opposed to the death penalty on that person, hell no!

The problem comes in, when people, as we all know, have been innocent and put to death...so that is disturbing... But people who commit horrible crimes, dont have any sympathy from me. The only other main problem I have with it , is it's not a real good punishment...They dont feel the effects of the punishment...I mean yeah you ended their life...but I would rather make them suffer.


Georgia just recently in the last 2 yrs or shorter switched to lethal injection, although we still use the electric chair for those who were sentenced when the electric chair was still used..

CHRIS

[amber]

Against it. IMO government sanctioned killing has a brutalizing effect on society that cancels out any deterrent value it could possibly have (if it has any to begin with; studies suggest that it doesn't.) Not to mention death penalty cases cost more in court appeals and administrative expenses than life sentences do. Plus, plenty of innocent people have already been put to death (hence the moratoriums in several states). I don't trust any government enough to give them that authority and hope they'll get it right "most of the time."
Hmmm, this is a good point. made me think. I knew about innocent people possibly being put to death, and i was opposed to that. However, in general i am super liberal, but on the death penalty, well, lets just say that I was ok with something that got rid of fetid humans. But then, when i was little ish, i swore i would only give money to causes that helped the environment, never humans. so.
that said, I guess i would have to be against it, in the hands of our gov't, and also if studies show it's not helpful. Which is fine, i think all the politicians i vote for would be against it anyway. I was never, uh, violently in favor of it, anyway...but i wasn't really opposed to it before, either. like i said, fetid humans and all...and i guess probably i don't hold human life in as high regard as some people may. It's not like we're an endangered part of an important ecosystem....
anyway
Amber

[amber]

I used to be in support of it, until I took a law school class devoted entirely to the topic of Capital Punishment. After that, I had a very different view. It is amazing how much education can change your opinion.

Some things I didn't know or realize before my class in law school:

-- It is not a deterrent because most people who commit murder do not really account for it in their "decisionmaking"
However, my true feelings are that I am very uncomfortable with state-sanctioned killing. I think on some level it is like "playing God". And I don't feel that anyone should do that.
good post. I didn't ever think it would be a deterrent to anyone who would kill someone, it was more like i thought "whew, glad they're gone!"
AMber

[Hawkeye]

- Lethal injection is not the quickest and surest method of execution

SO WHAT!!! What they need to do is make the death penalty MORE Painful and SLOW, but for those who deserve it of course. I think they should use less of the Death Penalty and only when they are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure and the crime is suitable then OF COURSE I support the death penalty. I don;t see how you can't. I know Brian will agree with this, Timothy McViehg didn't deserve a quick and painless death. He deserved to be tortured for a month, and then have his eyes ripped out and his arms cut off and to be thrown into a sea of piranas, and kept alive so he wishes he'd die but you still keep him alive until maybe after a week you give him a lethal injection. And the Sniper from a few years ago and Osama Bin Laden and child molestors all deserve that same punishment. Capitol punishment shouldn't be banned, it should be made much more harsh then it is!

[amber]

SO WHAT!!! What they need to do is make the death penalty MORE Painful and SLOW, but for those who deserve it of course. I think they should use less of the Death Penalty and only when they are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure and the crime is suitable then OF COURSE I support the death penalty. I don;t see how you can't. I know Brian will agree with this, Timothy McViehg didn't deserve a quick and painless death. He deserved to be tortured for a month, and then have his eyes ripped out and his arms cut off and to be thrown into a sea of piranas, and kept alive so he wishes he'd die but you still keep him alive until maybe after a week you give him a lethal injection. And the Sniper from a few years ago and Osama Bin Laden and child molestors all deserve that same punishment. Capitol punishment shouldn't be banned, it should be made much more harsh then it is!

Aw, c'mon, Hawkeye, don't hold back on us, what's your REAL opinion of capital punishment? :laugh:
:wavey:

[estranged4life]

just had the easy "Go to sleep" execution in Terre Haute...Really tame compared to he suffering he caused by exploding a ammonia nitrate bomb that not only killed dozens instantly, But a few people suffered for several years before dying of their injuries...

I have thoughts of ways he should've died...None involve "putting him to sleep" like a sick pet not for the murder of the citizens of OKC & the trial that never really explained the reason why they had to die.

Brian j.

[Hawkeye]

just had the easy "Go to sleep" execution in Terre Haute...Really tame compared to he suffering he caused by exploding a ammonia nitrate bomb that not only killed dozens instantly, But a few people suffered for several years before dying of their injuries...

I have thoughts of ways he should've died...None involve "putting him to sleep" like a sick pet not for the murder of the citizens of OKC & the trial that never really explained the reason why they had to die.

Brian j.


BINGO!!!!!!

[estranged4life]

I have the perfect sentence for Osama, We take him to downtown NYC and just drop him off near "Ground Zero", But we forgot to tell ol' terror a-hole we called those nice & pleasant NYPD/NYFD folk and family members of loved ones of 9/11...We will be able to watch this on the lameass networks on their fall "Must Kill Thursday" lineup.

Hell, This could be the start of a great "Reality" franchise ala "Survivor"...Matter of fact, we can avoid another Janet "Boob" Jackson episode and just do this during halftime of the Super Bowl 40!!!

Man...My ideas for Network TV are just so family oriented & wholesome.

:lol:

Brian j.

[wondergirl9847]

firing squad and hanging are

Bring 'em back.

[Mad4stevie]

SO WHAT!!! What they need to do is make the death penalty MORE Painful and SLOW, but for those who deserve it of course. I think they should use less of the Death Penalty and only when they are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure and the crime is suitable then OF COURSE I support the death penalty. I don;t see how you can't. I know Brian will agree with this, Timothy McViehg didn't deserve a quick and painless death. He deserved to be tortured for a month, and then have his eyes ripped out and his arms cut off and to be thrown into a sea of piranas, and kept alive so he wishes he'd die but you still keep him alive until maybe after a week you give him a lethal injection. And the Sniper from a few years ago and Osama Bin Laden and child molestors all deserve that same punishment. Capitol punishment shouldn't be banned, it should be made much more harsh then it is!

I am speaking from a pure legal standpoint, as in the prohibition in the Constitition of cruel and unusual punishment. My point was not to say that I agree with a lesser, more "sterile" form of punishment; it was to simply point out that maybe the idea of a deterrent and the prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment" may not be able to co-exist.

If I take out my moral opposition to it, I would say that in order to be anything close to a deterrent, an execution should be able to be watched by the public.

[Hawkeye]

OH, Legal Sh*t :laugh: . Yeah I guess my dreams of how the death penelaty should work conflict with the constitution and how our society works, but I don't care, frankly I've never been a fan of America's legal system in the slightest. If you didn't notice how vocal I was about the Tusk Survivor thing and how I protested how SodaScouts stuck so closely to the rules thats rooted in more then Tusk Survivor for sure. I hate how our legal system cares more about stupid little rules then common freaking sense. For example, if cops raid some guys house and find all this evidence maybe a video tape of him killing someone, it wouldn't count because they didn't get a warrent. Give Me a F***ing break. And lets take a stroll back to 1946 to the Nuremburg Trials. Now Those bastards are the at the top of my "should've been tortured" list. Why the hell did we need a 3 year trial to covict those f***ing Nazis. We should've thrown them all into ovens after starving them for a year the day after the war ended. And how long is it taking for MJ's trial to get underway. Didn't all his **** start 10 months ago. Our legal system is slow and pathetic, and back to the topic at hand, we need a more brutal death penalty for those who deserve it.

Man I've never ranted on this board for so long with somethign other then Fleetwood Mac :laugh:

[Hawkeye]

I used to be totally in support of it, but now I'm kind of on the fense...I'm now questioning my support on many things in life, so....My reasons for being FOR it : people like Osama Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, DC Snipers, etc... I have no mercy for them....and if say I had a little baby, and it was brutally murdered, do you think I would be opposed to the death penalty on that person, hell no!

The problem comes in, when people, as we all know, have been innocent and put to death...so that is disturbing... But people who commit horrible crimes, dont have any sympathy from me. The only other main problem I have with it , is it's not a real good punishment...They dont feel the effects of the punishment...I mean yeah you ended their life...but I would rather make them suffer.


Georgia just recently in the last 2 yrs or shorter switched to lethal injection, although we still use the electric chair for those who were sentenced when the electric chair was still used..

CHRIS

I missed this post earlier. You mentioned all the assholes I mentioned. And you're riight all the way. It should only be used in extreme cases where you're 100 percent sure they did it. And for like the 5th time already, I don't understand showing mercy to those getting the death penalty. Don't let the guy who cause thousands of people to suffer die painfully :rolleyes: make sure he/she gets a nice lethal injection.

[Mad4stevie]

OH, Legal Sh*t :laugh: . Yeah I guess my dreams of how the death penelaty should work conflict with the constitution and how our society works, but I don't care, frankly I've never been a fan of America's legal system in the slightest. If you didn't notice how vocal I was about the Tusk Survivor thing and how I protested how SodaScouts stuck so closely to the rules thats rooted in more then Tusk Survivor for sure. I hate how our legal system cares more about stupid little rules then common freaking sense. For example, if cops raid some guys house and find all this evidence maybe a video tape of him killing someone, it wouldn't count because they didn't get a warrent. Give Me a F***ing break. And lets take a stroll back to 1946 to the Nuremburg Trials. Now Those bastards are the at the top of my "should've been tortured" list. Why the hell did we need a 3 year trial to covict those f***ing Nazis. We should've thrown them all into ovens after starving them for a year the day after the war ended. And how long is it taking for MJ's trial to get underway. Didn't all his **** start 10 months ago. Our legal system is slow and pathetic, and back to the topic at hand, we need a more brutal death penalty for those who deserve it.

Man I've never ranted on this board for so long with somethign other then Fleetwood Mac :laugh:

OH, trust me . . . I am not a huge supporter of the way the system functions; I have to deal with it everyday and it leaves much to be desired. Especially with divorce, custody and abuse matters, which is the area that I practice in. It is really hard not to become cynical with all the bull sh*t that goes on. Unfortunately, the law is what we have to deal with and if it is lacking, then we need to deal with the legislatures and the jerks that are writing the law. If you want to talk about a slow process, look at how long it takes for a proposed law to work its way through the legislative process. That is, except for a bill raising their legislative salaries. :rolleyes:

[thepoetinmyhear]

I was going to avoid this topic, but after reading through the posts there are a few things I would like say.

It seems many of the people responding to this thread are against the justice system as opposed to the death penalty. To say you are opposed to it because innocent people are sometimes killed is not saying you are opposed to the death penalty but rather the justice system that convicts innocent people. It is a mistake to confuse the two.

I was taught to be against the death penaly through years of religious schools and most of my fellow classmates were against the death penalty until it affected us personally. Honestly it is extremely hypocritical that our cerebral response is always to say killing is wrong, but when presented with visceral information most people respond that the murderer deserves it (see the example in this thread in which someone state that if their child was killed they would probably support the death penalty in that case). The problem is that everyone who is a murder victim is someone's child (every single one) and thus the parents or friends or other family usually support the death penalty and it has become a case of who are we to interfere in their wants.

In many cases life in prison is thought to be a better deterrent, someone on this board even mentioned that seemed like it would be worse than a quick death. The fact is, however, that there are certain personalities that would thrive in a prison atmosphere. People whose minds are built for that type of structure (there are several interesting case files on this type of societal structure and those that seem to actually benefit from it). So, essentially it seems that if guilt is certain, and that the victim's loved ones support the death penalty, and that the defendant is a person who would benefit (as in thrive, not redemption) from being in prison, then I do not feel I am in any position to oppose the death penalty.

Michael

[paleshadow]

Just out of curiousity, how many of those who have posted they are against the death penalty are in favor of abortion?

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

This is tricky. Part of me says bring it back (in the UK) but I would worry about miscarriages of justice. What would you say to the family of someone who turned out innocent but had already received the death sentence? Er sorry... we made a mistake? However my husband and I had a very lengthy conversation around the time of the Soham murders (2 young girls murdered by school caretaker). The conversation was about what would we do if that happened to us (heaven forbid). I know that I would want the murderer dead and my hubby said it would probably be at his own hands!

[tommer]

i must admit that i find it even hard to understand exactly how come that in the 21st century, capitol punishment is still an acceptable thing in democratic societies.
this whole discussion sounds just freaky to me, in my country it's not even something to debate about. capitol punishment is inhumane, primitive, and obviously doesn't stop crime in any way. fulfilling the revengeance desires of angry mobs is just not a part of the purposes of a modern liberal justice system.

[Mad4stevie]

Just out of curiousity, how many of those who have posted they are against the death penalty are in favor of abortion?

This is a very good point. For me, as noted in previous posts, I think that any type of killing is immoral. That includes abortions. That is one thing that I never did understand on a fundamental level - why people want to save the lives of those on death row but want to have no restrictions on things like partial birth abortions.

After being trained in the law, I have learned to distinguish more clearly between something that is illegal and something that is immoral. Example: abortion in some form is legal under the constitution; but may be immoral under some people's ethical and moral standards. There seem to be many times that legality and morality can no co-exist.

[tommer]

This is a very good point. For me, as noted in previous posts, I think that any type of killing is immoral. That includes abortions. That is one thing that I never did understand on a fundamental level - why people want to save the lives of those on death row but want to have no restrictions on things like partial birth abortions.

After being trained in the law, I have learned to distinguish more clearly between something that is illegal and something that is immoral. Example: abortion in some form is legal under the constitution; but may be immoral under some people's ethical and moral standards. There seem to be many times that legality and morality can no co-exist.

or in a different twist; women who can't have abortions, and can't take care of their kids, have them anyway, those unwanted and neglected boys grow up defectly, turn criminals and eventually ends up on death rows.

[dissention]

Just out of curiousity, how many of those who have posted they are against the death penalty are in favor of abortion?

Me.

I am strongly opposed to the death penalty and find it the most vile practice in the judicial system. It's incredibly hypocritical and illogical. The governemnt promotes that murder is wrong, but it's okay when they do it. Gimme a f*cking break.

I strongly support a woman's right to have an abortion. To me, personally, I simply cannot equate murdering someone by lethal injection or electrical chair with aborting a baby that cannot be supported in life by the mother or father.

[dissention]

i must admit that i find it even hard to understand exactly how come that in the 21st century, capitol punishment is still an acceptable thing in democratic societies.
this whole discussion sounds just freaky to me, in my country it's not even something to debate about. capitol punishment is inhumane, primitive, and obviously doesn't stop crime in any way. fulfilling the revengeance desires of angry mobs is just not a part of the purposes of a modern liberal justice system.

Yup, and the vast majority of the people who support it in the US are the Biblethumpers. How ludicrous.

It's a barbaric practice that needs to be abolished.

[DrummerDeanna]

I'm not all in favor of abortion - I would never have one - however - it's not my place to say that no one else can.....and it all comes down to whether a person believes abortion is actually murder or not - some do not believe life starts until birth....that's their belief...who am I to say it's wrong for someone else?

[dissention]

That is one thing that I never did understand on a fundamental level - why people want to save the lives of those on death row but want to have no restrictions on things like partial birth abortions.

Don't lump partial-birth abortions into that equation, it's misleading. Partial-birth abortions are only viable options when a late-term mother is in danger or the baby is in danger. Most states have laws prohibiting partial-birth abortions if they are not performed within certain guidelines, i.e. they cannot be performed if no one is in danger. Also, many states have laws that give the state government discretion in performing them. To ban partial-borth abortions outright is dangerous.

[tommer]

Yup, and the vast majority of the people who support it in the US are the Biblethumpers. How ludicrous.

It's a barbaric practice that needs to be abolished.

of course. but the part i do not understand is how biblethumpers' ideals become state law.

[Serrart]

I'm against death penalty and also in my Country it has been abolished decades ago (it survived in the military code till 1994 though, even if it's been never applied after WWII). It's useless, inhuman and I consider it a legalized form of revenge, something a justice system should prevent, not endorse. About abortions, I think the woman has the right to choose. Hope it doesn't sound as I'm preaching but these are two fundamental points in my value system so I feel strongly about them.

Romy

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Partial Birth abortion, like you said...isnt what it's made out to be...esp by certain persons trying to obtain political office.
It's not a practice that is common, or easy to get...it's not like a mother can say in month 8.5 "oh I decided i dont want to have a baby..lets have a partial birth abortion." To my understanding they are only allowed when the mother faces serious long term injuries or death by having the baby or if the abortion is not performed both the mother AND baby will die..

Some people think partial birth abortion is just so clear cut....and it's in now way relatable, to the death penalty---no abortion is.


The problem with the "partial birth abortion ban" they have tried passing in congress is how it's worded....many Democrats in congress would like a "ban" passed that includes some exceptions.. They would like to ban the practice EXCEPT in cases where it is absolutely necessary...Republicans use it as a political tool, to mess with people's emotions... What many people do not realize is that the ban does not allow women to have an abortion after the first trimester. Unfortunately many birth defects cannot be detected until well into the second trimester, and often times women choose to have an abortion after their 18-20 week ultrasound, if a birth defect is found.

Any1 know the status of the bill?

Anyway sorry to turn this into an abortion discussion..I personally am opposed to someone having an abortion, but I'm not a woman..so I dont think I cant rightfully say.. I have known people to have abortions (never partial birth) and it's just not something you can through into the WRONG category without understanding it i believe..therefore I think people including myself need to research it more

Chris

[DrummerDeanna]

Partial Birth abortion, like you said...isnt what it's made out to be...esp by certain persons trying to obtain political office.
It's not a practice that is common, or easy to get...it's not like a mother can say in month 8.5 "oh I decided i dont want to have a baby..lets have a partial birth abortion." To my understanding they are only allowed when the mother faces serious long term injuries or death by having the baby or if the abortion is not performed both the mother AND baby will die..

Some people think partial birth abortion is just so clear cut....and it's in now way relatable, to the death penalty---no abortion is.


The problem with the "partial birth abortion ban" they have tried passing in congress is how it's worded....many Democrats in congress would like a "ban" passed that includes some exceptions.. They would like to ban the practice EXCEPT in cases where it is absolutely necessary...Republicans use it as a political tool, to mess with people's emotions... What many people do not realize is that the ban does not allow women to have an abortion after the first trimester. Unfortunately many birth defects cannot be detected until well into the second trimester, and often times women choose to have an abortion after their 18-20 week ultrasound, if a birth defect is found.

Any1 know the status of the bill?

Anyway sorry to turn this into an abortion discussion..I personally am opposed to someone having an abortion, but I'm not a woman..so I dont think I cant rightfully say.. I have known people to have abortions (never partial birth) and it's just not something you can through into the WRONG category without understanding it i believe..therefore I think people including myself need to research it more

Chris

What freaks me out is that there are people who are basing their entire decision of who to vote for on abortion.

There was a guy in the paper the other day who said something to the effect of, "I'm very against the war and I don't like a lot about Bush - but I'm against abortion so I'm voting for him..." I couldn't believe it...no matter what the issues that one still incites SO many passionate emotions...

[dissention]

of course. but the part i do not understand is how biblethumpers' ideals become state law.

Where have you been? :laugh:

THEY STEAL ELECTIONS!

[Vianna]

I oppose capital punishment. No matter what someone has done, we have no right to compound the wrong by taking a life.

As to abortion: the choice should be left to the woman and her doctor. Each case is different; you can't make a rule that would cover all cases. This is why I am pro-choice.

[amber]

Just out of curiousity, how many of those who have posted they are against the death penalty are in favor of abortion?

me. although I posted i was against the death penalty, i wasn't, well, very against it. I was more against the miscarriage of justice portion than the criminals dying portion...but again, i don't think human life is the big furry deal that most think it is.
Amber

[amber]

What freaks me out is that there are people who are basing their entire decision of who to vote for on abortion.

There was a guy in the paper the other day who said something to the effect of, "I'm very against the war and I don't like a lot about Bush - but I'm against abortion so I'm voting for him..." I couldn't believe it...no matter what the issues that one still incites SO many passionate emotions...
That is extremely illogical to me, too.

[The Tower]

i don't think human life is the big furry deal that most think it is.

Amen, sistah.

[amber]

Amen, sistah.
ah, I thought i may be villified...but not yet, I guess! :wavey:
AMber

[Hawkeye]

Me.

I am strongly opposed to the death penalty and find it the most vile practice in the judicial system. It's incredibly hypocritical and illogical. The governemnt promotes that murder is wrong, but it's okay when they do it. Gimme a f*cking break.

I strongly support a woman's right to have an abortion. To me, personally, I simply cannot equate murdering someone by lethal injection or electrical chair with aborting a baby that cannot be supported in life by the mother or father.

I just knew you'd chime in with some stupid crap like that again. How can you possibly care more about ****ing murderers then a baby. HOW. didn't you go on and on about killing babys in Iraq or something. But you support abortion.

[amber]

I just knew you'd chime in with some stupid crap like that again. How can you possibly care more about ****ing murderers then a baby. HOW. didn't you go on and on about killing babys in Iraq or something. But you support abortion.
Dude! a few cells isn't a baby. And he didn't say he cared more about murderers than babys. And maybe, if a few of those murderers mothers had gotten abortions, instead of raised them poorly, there would be less murderers.
Amber

[Hawkeye]

Dude! a few cells isn't a baby. And he didn't say he cared more about murderers than babys. And maybe, if a few of those murderers mothers had gotten abortions, instead of raised them poorly, there would be less murderers.
Amber

Now you see this is where I'm different then most people. I will read soemthing put so eloquently by Amber and go hmm that makes a lot of sense. And retract what I said earlier (but I'm still generally opposed to abortion) But someone like Dissention is so glued to being ultra liberal all the time, they just won't be flexible.

[tommer]

Now you see this is where I'm different then most people. I will read soemthing put so eloquently by Amber and go hmm that makes a lot of sense. And retract what I said earlier (but I'm still generally opposed to abortion) But someone like Dissention is so glued to being ultra liberal all the time, they just won't be flexible.
dude, why do you use the term Liberal like it's a curse, when in fact it's a great virtue? don't you know that liberalism is the foundation of a modern society?

[Hawkeye]

dude, why do you use the term Liberal like it's a curse, when in fact it's a great virtue? don't you know that liberalism is the foundation of a modern society?

I never said it was bad.

[dissention]

I just knew you'd chime in with some stupid crap like that again. How can you possibly care more about ****ing murderers then a baby. HOW. didn't you go on and on about killing babys in Iraq or something. But you support abortion.

And should I be surprised that you'd chime in with something so illogical?

I never said I "cared" more about murderers than I did about babies. Two, three, or four month old fetuses are not babies to me, whether you like it or not. I support a woman's right to not have a child, I do not support abortion as a means of birth control; those are two wildly different things, but then you probably see it as just a black and white issue, when it isn't.

I see a stark difference between aborting a fetus that would not be supported by its parents, emotionally and monetarily, and could have a terrible life, and killing a living, breathing human being by the electric chair. Women do not have abortions because they want to, they have abortions because they have to; because every woman lives under a different set of circumstances than another. If that means that they cannot support a baby, it's their right to abort it instead of exposing the child to the harsh circumstances that live under.

I also see a big difference between bombing a country that never attacked us, never threatened us, and killing babies over there as a result. I could point out your clear hypocrisy by bringing up your support for Iraq, whether you do or not at this point, which in turn would make you supportive of killing babies. But see, your point wasn't a point at all and has nothing to do with the capital punishment versus abortion debate.

[dissention]

Now you see this is where I'm different then most people. I will read soemthing put so eloquently by Amber and go hmm that makes a lot of sense. And retract what I said earlier (but I'm still generally opposed to abortion) But someone like Dissention is so glued to being ultra liberal all the time, they just won't be flexible.

I'm sorry that I don't hold your views when it comes to gay people, thugs in the White House, the death penalty, and abortion, but I do have to be able to sleep at night.

[Hawkeye]

I also see a big difference between bombing a country that never attacked us, never threatened us, and killing babies over there as a result. I could point out your clear hypocrisy by bringing up your support for Iraq, whether you do or not at this point, which in turn would make you supportive of killing babies. But see, your point wasn't a point at all and has nothing to do with the capital punishment versus abortion debate.

WHAT. My point wasn't a point at all. That makes no sense. And where in heck did you get that I support Iraq. I want us to get the hell out of there. I just brought up Iraq to compare the killing of babies over there to the killing of babies over here. And guess what if you don't think you can raise a baby there's another "A" word out there that's a lot better then abortion and its ADOPTION.

And Dissention you have to answer this question, How can you not want the DC snipers or some other horrible criminal to get their ass electricuted. What is so wrong with that. Could you please explain yourself.

[amber]

"A" word out there that's a lot better then abortion and its ADOPTION.


not to interrupt, but it's also hard to carry a baby, get the medical attention, etc. also, there are already millions of babies to adopt here, and from other countries. Countries where people absolutely don't have the resources or beliefs to have abortions or even birth control (hello, Africa, anyone?) and, if you're religous, don't you think those "souls" go to heaven anyway, just to be born again? I guess religious people think you have to be baptized, but, i'm sorry, i don't think that splashing some water on a baby, and a guy saying a few prayers over it, would be God's deciding factor on whether that soul got to go to heaven or not. so.
Amber

[dissention]

WHAT. My point wasn't a point at all. That makes no sense. And where in heck did you get that I support Iraq. I want us to get the hell out of there.

But you supported it to begin with, so it makes no difference what you think now. The damage has been done.

I just brought up Iraq to compare the killing of babies over there to the killing of babies over here.

And it was a lousy point. You can't equate the unwarranted bombing of babies and toddlers by the United States to abortion. Maybe you can, but I certainly can't.

And guess what if you don't think you can raise a baby there's another "A" word out there that's a lot better then abortion and its ADOPTION.

Yeah, because we all know that adoption rates are higher than the rates of those that aren't adopted. :rolleyes:

And Dissention you have to answer this question, How can you not want the DC snipers or some other horrible criminal to get their ass electricuted. What is so wrong with that. Could you please explain yourself.

I already did. It isn't the governments place to premeditate and carry out murders. It contradicts and undermines the criminal justice system. I don't believe in that sort of revenge and don't think it solves anything.

[Hawkeye]

But you supported it to begin with, so it makes no difference what you think now. The damage has been done.

No I never supported it. I never said either way on here. Where are you getting that I supported the war.

[dissention]

No I never supported it. I never said either way on here. Where are you getting that I supported the war.

Your previous posts. ;)

If you want me to, I'll try to find some of them, but it will have to wait until tomorrow because I'm too Bushwhacked right now. I specifically remember that you and Lux got into a little tussle over your remarks, you said something to the effect that you were glad we were over there getting oil because your gas would be cheaper.

[amber]

I guess religious people think you have to be baptized, but, i'm sorry, i don't think that splashing some water on a baby, and a guy saying a few prayers over it, would be God's deciding factor on whether that soul got to go to heaven or not. so.
Amber
Hawkeye, what you think of this?

[dissention]

Hawkeye, what you think of this?

I'm not Hawkeye, but I think it's a load of ****. ;) :wavey:

[amber]

I'm not Hawkeye, but I think it's a load of ****. ;) :wavey:
Wait, so you think "god" would care that these babies haven't been baptized?

[dissention]

Wait, so you think "god" would care that these babies haven't been baptized?

NO! :lol:

I don't believe in god, so I think it's ridiculous.

[amber]

NO! :lol:

I don't believe in god, so I think it's ridiculous.
Well, that was the crux of my point, but i didn't want to close it out with "god doesn't exist" cause, really, I don't have all the facts on that.
But if "god" did exist, i don't think he/she/it would give a **** whether or not you prayed and splashed water on a baby. Therefore, "abortion souls", no matter what happens to them, are free and clear. See? and if someone believed in reincarn, well, those souls would come back! See? I mean, i, myself, am more of the native american religious persuasion, though i was baptized Catholic (italian, Irish, comes with the territory). so i believe in respect for all living things, but i also believe that death is part of everything, and there are no real "rules" for it. But the main rule is, injustice is wrong.to everything on the earth. (which, if you're religious, you should believe "god" created, and act accordingly)
but again, i think to bring you're point to others, as much as you're able, you have to try to bring the point into their belief system. This is difficult, if not impossible, in most cases, but...doesn't mean you can't try. After all, that's how social change comes about, by changing peoples minds.
:wavey:
Amber

[Hawkeye]

Well I believe that all those aborted babies do go to heaven. When Jesse Duplantis supposedly went to heaven (this seems hard to believe, but he seemed believable) but he went to heaven and he saw a section of babies who were aborted.

[estranged4life]

"With a human it is an abortion
With a chicken it is an omelet..."

Brian j.

[EnchantedSLN]

When Jesse Duplantis supposedly went to heaven (this seems hard to believe, but he seemed believable) but he went to heaven and he saw a section of babies who were aborted.

There are sections in heaven?

[GateandGarden]

There are sections in heaven? :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

I'm sorry--that just really cracked me up.

Hillary

[amber]

There are sections in heaven?
Yeah, according to the mormons

[estranged4life]

Yes, I heard there are subdivisions

that Rush song is being played in Heaven???

Brian "I wanna be in the music section in Heaven/Hell/Purgatory/Nirvana/Etc." j.

[EnchantedSLN]

Yeah, according to the mormons

Seriously? (Not trying to be funny... I'm really curious). I didn't know that.

I don't believe in God or heaven anyway, but I guess I wasn't picturing like, the Hollywood Bowl.

[amber]

Seriously? (I'm not being trying to be funny... I'm really curious). I didn't know that.

I don't believe in God or heaven anyway, but I guess I wasn't picturing like, the Hollywood Bowl.
yeah, one of my best friends in highschool was mormon
seperate level for black people

[amber]

Well I believe that all those aborted babies do go to heaven. When Jesse Duplantis supposedly went to heaven (this seems hard to believe, but he seemed believable) but he went to heaven and he saw a section of babies who were aborted.
okay, that is hard to believe.
but besides that
why the big stink about abortion, then?

[GateandGarden]

yeah, one of my best friends in highschool was mormon
seperate level for black peopleAmber, please tell me you're joking?!?

Hillary

[ThePenguin]

There are sections in heaven?


Even in heaven, must there always be division?!

LOL oh boy that cracked me up. 'Welcome to heaven, here's your guide map, you'll find the aborted babies to the left at the far end of the hall.'

goodness.

-Lis

[DrummerDeanna]

I've hear the separate sections in heaven thing - mostly from mormons...I think men get their own planet or something right?

Now - the heaven I grew up believing in had no sections at all...t'was all inclusive ;)

[dissention]

Seriously? (Not trying to be funny... I'm really curious). I didn't know that.

I don't believe in God or heaven anyway, but I guess I wasn't picturing like, the Hollywood Bowl.

We're kindred spirits. :lol: :xoxo:

[Mad4stevie]

NO! :lol:

I don't believe in god, so I think it's ridiculous.

Now I see where alot of this comes from! ;)

[dissention]

Now I see where alot of this comes from! ;)

:p

I'm not alone, Tiffany is by my side! :laugh:

[The Tower]

:p

I'm not alone, Tiffany is by my side! :laugh:

Me, too! Never believed in any gods, never will. All religions out there are just an attempt to make sense out of the unknown. I don't have a problem with the fact that there are many things out there that I don't have definitive answers to, after all I'm only human. I'd rather be ignorant than deluded.

[heyjupiter678]

:p

I'm not alone, Tiffany is by my side! :laugh:
And me. I'm a proud atheist. :nod:

[DrummerDeanna]

I'd rather be ignorant than deluded.

Thanks a lot :rolleyes:

Just because someone has a religion or is spiritual doesn't make them deluded...

I realize there are many who strongly disagree with organized religion....but ya know - some people DO need that...and so ya know - to each their own...:shrug:

[The Tower]

Thanks a lot :rolleyes:

Just because someone has a religion or is spiritual doesn't make them deluded...

I realize there are many who strongly disagree with organized religion....but ya know - some people DO need that...and so ya know - to each their own...:shrug:

Definitely to each their own. Absolutely.

Heroin addicts need their heroin, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna start shooting up.

People look to and find comfort from many different things- doesn't mean any one of them is "right" or "nice" or anything in particular.

[amber]

:p

I'm not alone, Tiffany is by my side! :laugh:
I don't really believe in god, either. I mean, again, i don't have all the facts on that, but as of now I would say no god. At least, for sure, not the one from the Bible.
AMber

[tommer]

another proud atheist here :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

I don't really believe in god, either. I mean, again, i don't have all the facts on that, but as of now I would say no god. At least, for sure, not the one from the Bible.
AMberBut that's the thing about the concept of God--you can't have all the facts. The nature of the subject just doesn't allow that--it can't proved or disproved by science because it's beyond the realm of science. I don't see how we can know or not know if there's a God. We can believe that there's a god, and that's a powerful thing, but isn't it idealistic to be either certain or uncertain? I just don't see how we can know. As for organized religion, for my purposes, I think it's vile and evil, but I've known many who have been given great comfort and happiness and who are better people because of how they follow their religions (the way they were intended to, in my opinion), so to each his own. I feel like I can still say that, despite how thoroughly annoyed I am by religious fanatics.

Hillary

[amber]

yeah, that's why i said that. because although i don't think there is a god, (especially as described in the bible) no one will ever really know. So i didn't want to present it as a fact that there is no god. Because to unequivocally say there is no god would be ludicrous. Just like I think it's ludicrous when people say, for sure, there is a god. And i very much appreciate when people are able to have comfort and live better lives because they're scared of god, or because they believe god wants them to. Although, i think it's strange when people follow the rules in the bible, because they're in the bible. Because, some guy just wrote the bible. I know, it's supposed to be god's word, but... :shrug: still, god didn't sit down with a pen....
anyway

[DrummerDeanna]

Definitely to each their own. Absolutely.

Heroin addicts need their heroin, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna start shooting up.

People look to and find comfort from many different things- doesn't mean any one of them is "right" or "nice" or anything in particular.


Okay - you're comparing religion to shooting up?

:rolleyes:

Yes - there are religious fanatics who apparently get the message totally wrong and use religion and God to spread hate and intolerance etc...that sucks...

BUT there are amazing religious people in the world as well...ever heard of Dorothy Day?

Are you also saying religion is wrong? I don't think any of us has the authority to proclaim it wrong - or right for that matter...but heroin is illegal - religion is not...

There are non-religious fanatics as well..and so one could argue that non-religion is henious...(I'm not arguing that at all..I'm just sayin')

Religion does a lot of good for a lot of people - and like EVERYTHING ELSE there is good and bad....that's just the way it is...

[DrummerDeanna]

yeah, that's why i said that. because although i don't think there is a god, (especially as described in the bible) no one will ever really know. So i didn't want to present it as a fact that there is no god. Because to unequivocally say there is no god would be ludicrous. Just like I think it's ludicrous when people say, for sure, there is a god. And i very much appreciate when people are able to have comfort and live better lives because they're scared of god, or because they believe god wants them to. Although, i think it's strange when people follow the rules in the bible, because they're in the bible. Because, some guy just wrote the bible. I know, it's supposed to be god's word, but... :shrug: still, god didn't sit down with a pen....
anyway

No one can say *for sure* that there is or is not a God - however for religious or spiritual folk - that's where faith comes in...that's the most important part I think.

The Bible was actually written by MANY MANY different authors...but many of them do claim divine inspiration etc....geez...I really gotta dig out my notes from Bible as Literature....because we learned all about different theories and things on how/who it was written....Many books in fact had multiple authors and have been edited throughout the years...

IMO - the Bible is tool - not to be taken literally but to be used as a basic guide and source of inspiration - it's highly offensive to me when people use it spread hate and ignorance...obviously the message of the Bible is lost on those types of people...

[estranged4life]

in a higher power...But the God these religious right force on people isnt my idea of a "God". They believe their ideal God is the "Be All, End All" and if ya dont form the line behind 'em and conform then yer evil (Like Satan in South Park the Movie sings "Good cannot exist without Evil...So isnt it Good to be Evil sometimes?")/bound for Hell/Liberal/etc...Smells like a "cow pasture" if ya ask me.

Oh well...If that is the case for the religious retard-Os ya can go ahead and slap that ol "666" on my forehead and send me on my merry way, Cause "I would rather be a King in Hell, Than a Pawn in Heaven."

Brian "Married to a Wiccan" j.

[wondergirl9847]

Everyone who is Christian is not some religious zealot/fanatic. There are crazies everywhere in every religion. You shouldn't judge a group of people based on a select few.

I believe in God, I'm a Christian. I'm proud to say I am. I try not to judge people, but I'm human, we all make mistakes.

I realize that people like Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart have tarnished Christianity, but God knows what's going on, He will take care of everything. I trust Him to do so.

I believe Tammy Faye has given Christianity a good name in that she doesn't judge and loves everyone.

I don't put my faith in people, they let you down. God's the one I talk/pray to, not people who claim to know Him.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen...

**I didn't post to you, Brian...this post was in general. :)

[DrummerDeanna]

Everyone who is Christian is not some religious zealot/fanatic. There are crazies everywhere in every religion. You shouldn't judge a group of people based on a select few.

I believe in God, I'm a Christian. I'm proud to say I am. I try not to judge people, but I'm human, we all make mistakes.

I realize that people like Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart have tarnished Christianity, but God knows what's going on, He will take care of everything. I trust Him to do so.

I believe Tammy Faye has given Christianity a good name in that she doesn't judge and loves everyone.

I don't put my faith in people, they let you down. God's the one I talk/pray to, not people who claim to know Him.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen...

**I didn't post to you, Brian...this post was in general. :)


Well said Christy...ITA...

Also I like the quote from City of Angels which goes something like, "Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"

I like that.

[estranged4life]

**I didn't post to you, Brian...this post was in general. :)

I knew what ya meant anyways, So no prob-lem-O...

And to clarify myself I am talking about those religious folk her in Oklahoma who seem to think they ARE the chosen few, And they can commit as much sin as allowable by law and still be allowed into "Heaven" when all is said and done.

Trust me, this is the ONE thing I hate about living here in the heart of the Bible Belt...Yer not allowed to "go against the grain". (I found it funny as hell when religious protesters picketed the 2003 Fleetwood Mac show in OKC...They think Stevie is still a witch??? Bwahahahahaha!!!)

Brian j.

[GateandGarden]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen...


:) I really like that. And I agree. :nod:

Hillary

[amber]

No one can say *for sure* that there is or is not a God - however for religious or spiritual folk - that's where faith comes in...that's the most important part I think.

The Bible was actually written by MANY MANY different authors...but many of them do claim divine inspiration etc....geez...I really gotta dig out my notes from Bible as Literature....because we learned all about different theories and things on how/who it was written....Many books in fact had multiple authors and have been edited throughout the years...

IMO - the Bible is tool - not to be taken literally but to be used as a basic guide and source of inspiration - it's highly offensive to me when people use it spread hate and ignorance...obviously the message of the Bible is lost on those types of people...
Right, but many people who follow it take it literally. Actually, from the religious people i have met, it's unusual that you don't take it literally. Even people who take it literally, but do not necessarily spread hate or ignorance, really confound me. But that's really because a lot of things they believe, from the bible, really stretch my sense of logic, scientific, and historical knowledge.
The fact that it has many, many, authors, freaks me out more...but that's ok. Please do not think i am attacking your right to your faith. I am debating with it, however.... :laugh: Actually, the essence of your faith is much easier for me to understand than others i have talked to.
anyways
AMber

[amber]

Well said Christy...ITA...

Also I like the quote from City of Angels which goes something like, "Some things are true whether you believe in them or not"

I like that.
Why pick God, then?

[DrummerDeanna]

Right, but many people who follow it take it literally. Actually, from the religious people i have met, it's unusual that you don't take it literally. Even people who take it literally, but do not necessarily spread hate or ignorance, really confound me. But that's really because a lot of things they believe, from the bible, really stretch my sense of logic, scientific, and historical knowledge.
The fact that it has many, many, authors, freaks me out more...but that's ok. Please do not think i am attacking your right to your faith. I am debating with it, however.... :laugh: Actually, the essence of your faith is much easier for me to understand than others i have talked to.
anyways
AMber

Well - it is, I am coming to find out, pretty rare the view that the Bible is not to be taken literally...

My friend Frankie and I used to call ourselve Catholic rebels...we were SO against many of the Catholic Church teachings -yet involved in our individual church.

I fear I've been spoiled in that church though - the priest was also a button pusher who would always find ways to work in gay rights etc into his sermon (he really pushed equality and frowned upon people who used the Bible/religion to attack gay people) - he even let my friend start a gay/lesbian Catholic support group...a radical idea in the Catholic church- which I"ll be the first to admit is a corrupt and highly antiquated organization...

But my faith has nothing to do with people...I just do my own thing...

[DrummerDeanna]

Why pick God, then?

lol...because I was raised and culturally pre-conditioned to believe in God :laugh: It just stuck....though - although I did go through a questioning/experimenting with other things phase....

[The Tower]

Okay - you're comparing religion to shooting up?

Yep. Some people (not all) get high on religion. Some people (not all) cannot get through the day or the week without going to church or relying on instructions from some religious text. I don't see much difference between Pentacostals going into their "state" of speaking in tongues and someone dropping acid. Religion can be just as addictive (and used in a similar manner) as any other drug or addictive substance/situation.

Yes - there are religious fanatics who apparently get the message totally wrong and use religion and God to spread hate and intolerance etc...that sucks...

BUT there are amazing religious people in the world as well...ever heard of Dorothy Day?

I never made any claims that there weren't amazing religious people in the world.

Are you also saying religion is wrong? I don't think any of us has the authority to proclaim it wrong - or right for that matter...

I think the world would be a far better place without religion. Despite any "good" that comes from it, it is the primary cause of intolerance throughout the world. I'm certainly glad that we have things like cathedrals, illuminated manuscripts, and all the art and beauty that came from religious fervor. However, I would give all that up if we could have not had the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, all of the various skirmishes during the reformation/counter-reformation, etc., etc., etc.

but heroin is illegal - religion is not...

In many countries religion is illegal. Heroin is also not illegal in some societies. Not that it matters- as if legality somehow endows something with legitimacy. Just because something is the law doesn't mean it's right (or wrong, for that matter).

Religion does a lot of good for a lot of people - and like EVERYTHING ELSE there is good and bad....that's just the way it is...

One person's good is another person's bad. For example, I work at an evangelical christian-owned company. The niece of one of the employees here has a heart disease and needs a heart transplant within the next few months or she will die. The daughter of another employee learned of this situation and decided to organize her school prayer circle to pray that this sick girl would get a new heart. However, she didn't realize that she was praying that someone would die.

Some who think that they are bettering the community/world with their religiosity sometimes don't realize the darker side of their efforts. Better to just be a kind person all around without having to subscribe to some set of intolerant dogma.

[amber]

In many countries religion is illegal. Heroin is also not illegal in some societies. Not that it matters- as if legality somehow endows something with legitimacy. Just because something is the law doesn't mean it's right (or wrong, for that matter).


I totally agree that whether something is illegal or not does not endow it with legitimacy. However, Heroin is REALLY REALLY bad for your body - and religion really isn't.

[Dreammms]

One person's good is another person's bad. For example, I work at an evangelical christian-owned company. The niece of one of the employees here has a heart disease and needs a heart transplant within the next few months or she will die. The daughter of another employee learned of this situation and decided to organize her school prayer circle to pray that this sick girl would get a new heart. However, she didn't realize that she was praying that someone would die.

wow that is so sad
my little cousin nick who just turned four had a heart transplant a yr ago and so far so good
he was in the hospital dying and needed a heart badly and just in the luck of time he got one

[The Tower]

I totally agree that whether something is illegal or not does not endow it with legitimacy. However, Heroin is REALLY REALLY bad for your body - and religion really isn't.

Tell that to the Pentacostal snake handler that got bit by a rattlesnake and died.

Or worse- tell that to the homosexual that was so filled with self-hatred because of his religion's teachings that he killed himself. Nice, huh.

[amber]

Tell that to the Pentacostal snake handler that got bit by a rattlesnake and died.

Or worse- tell that to the homosexual that was so filled with self-hatred because of his religion's teachings that he killed himself. Nice, huh.
:rolleyes: oh, c'mon. Heroin is ALWAYS bad for you, religion itself isn't. only when used to instill self hatred, and uh, when used with snakes...

[DrummerDeanna]

Tell that to the Pentacostal snake handler that got bit by a rattlesnake and died.

Or worse- tell that to the homosexual that was so filled with self-hatred because of his religion's teachings that he killed himself. Nice, huh.

:rolleyes:

[The Tower]

Heroin is ALWAYS bad for you, religion itself isn't.

Heroin isn't always bad for you. It's just a narcotic that, if abused, can be very detrimental to your health and well being.

I wasn't comparing Heroin to religion, I was comparing the use of and desire to use heroin to the desire to get a "fix" from religion.


:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: right back at'cha.

[amber]

oh yeah?!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
how bout that, huh? yeah, that's what i thought!... :laugh: :laugh:

[dissention]

However, Heroin is REALLY REALLY bad for your body - and religion really isn't.

Tell that to Jim Jones' followers. Or to the Heaven's Gate group.

[amber]

Tell that to Jim Jones' followers. Or to the Heaven's Gate group.
That's not religion

[The Tower]

That's not religion

re·li·gion
n.

1) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3) A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4) A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

If Jim Jones ain't religion, I don't know what is....

[gldstwmn]

That's not religion

Oh, so you're going to define religion for us now? :rolleyes:

[amber]

Oh, so you're going to define religion for us now? :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
oh, so you're going to talk like that again? oh, of course

[GateandGarden]

Tell that to Jim Jones' followers. Or to the Heaven's Gate group.I think this is a good point, but I also think we're obviously talking about extreme cases. Am I correct in saying that heroin is pretty much always a bad thing? Now that I've typed that, I see how asinine the religion vs. heroin thing is. It started out okay but then it just got silly. Oh well.

Hillary

[DrummerDeanna]

I think this is a good point, but I also think we're obviously talking about extreme cases. Am I correct in saying that heroin is pretty much always a bad thing? Now that I've typed that, I see how asinine the religion vs. heroin thing is. It started out okay but then it just got silly. Oh well.

Hillary

:nod:

----------------

So - because of a few radical extremists you dislike ALL religion in general? By the same token - because I've met some really crappy atheists should I dislike all atheists I meet?

Just a bit of information - I was raised in a particular religion in which I have led a happy, productive and non-crazy life=style. I don't live communally with some cultish group and I've never been led to harm myself by my religion....

It's unfair to pull out the most extreme cases and use those as a basis of what religion and religious people are like....we're not all like that...believe it or not.

Now I'm done because just as you accuse religious fanatics of being closed minded I feel that when I try to explain or defend my religion or beliefs the more they'll get shot down - I respect other's views - and don't constantly dump on atheists or any other religious group - I don't claim to "know the truth" or "have all the right answers". I like to hear others opinions in a respectful manner...but oh well - this is a subject that people are very passionate about.....so whatever....I've said it before and I'll say it again....To each their own!!

[GateandGarden]

:nod:

----------------

So - because of a few radical extremists you dislike ALL religion in general? By the same token - because I've met some really crappy atheists should I dislike all atheists I meet?

Just a bit of information - I was raised in a particular religion in which I have led a happy, productive and non-crazy life=style. I don't live communally with some cultish group and I've never been led to harm myself by my religion....

It's unfair to pull out the most extreme cases and use those as a basis of what religion and religious people are like....we're not all like that...believe it or not.

Now I'm done because just as you accuse religious fanatics of being closed minded I feel that when I try to explain or defend my religion or beliefs the more they'll get shot down - I respect other's views - and don't constantly dump on atheists or any other religious group - I don't claim to "know the truth" or "have all the right answers". I like to hear others opinions in a respectful manner...but oh well - this is a subject that people are very passionate about.....so whatever....I've said it before and I'll say it again....To each their own!!
Well put Deanna!

[wondergirl9847]

But my faith has nothing to do with people...I just do my own thing...

I grew up in different churches, but could never find one to call a home. I attended a church for about 4 and a half years, that was the longest for going to one, for me. I've struggled with wanting to be part of a church and not. I've not been on a regular basis since 2000.

God's always with you no matter if you go or not. He doesn't abandon you if you decide not to go. I've been baptized and I'm saved. I talk to God and pray to Him for guidance, help, everything. He was there for me during some difficult times in my life. :)

[amber]

I grew up in different churches, but could never find one to call a home. I attended a church for about 4 and a half years, that was the longest for going to one, for me. I've struggled with wanting to be part of a church and not. I've not been on a regular basis since 2000.

God's always with you no matter if you go or not. He doesn't abandon you if you decide not to go. I've been baptized and I'm saved. I talk to God and pray to Him for guidance, help, everything. He was there for me during some difficult times in my life. :)
I'm not being sarcastic but why does someone splashing water on you and saying prayers over you uh, get you into heaven? again, not being sarcastic :)

[wondergirl9847]

I didn't say being baptized gets you into Heaven. If you are saved and ask God to come into your heart and forgive your sins, I believe you go to Heaven. :) Being baptized is just a representation of having your sins washed away.

I went to a Christian (Baptist, although I never went to a Baptist church, LOL) school from kindergarten through 8th grade, so Christianity was always in my family and life.

I completed a goal to read the entire Bible a few years ago. That was great because I'd grown up with it, but never really READ it. I learned stuff I didn't even know about.

[amber]

I didn't say being baptized gets you into Heaven. If you are saved and ask God to come into your heart and forgive your sins, I believe you go to Heaven. :) Being baptized is just a representation of having your sins washed away.

I went to a Christian (Baptist, although I never went to a Baptist church, LOL) school from kindergarten through 8th grade, so Christianity was always in my family and life.

I completed a goal to read the entire Bible a few years ago. That was great because I'd grown up with it, but never really READ it. I learned stuff I didn't even know about.
No, i wasn't accusing you of saying that, i just thought you knew. like i think if your catholic, and you don't get baptized, it's a real problem...

[wondergirl9847]

I think that some religions are more adamant about baptism, but not sure which ones.

Well, Jesus was baptized and He had his disciples baptized, so I decided when I was in my early 20's to do it. I'm kinda glad my mom didn't have me baptized as a kid, because I made my own choice and it meant more, I think.

[amber]

I think that some religions are more adamant about baptism, but not sure which ones.

Well, Jesus was baptized and He had his disciples baptized, so I decided when I was in my early 20's to do it. I'm kinda glad my mom didn't have me baptized as a kid, because I made my own choice and it meant more, I think.
Ah, in a show about Roman History i saw, it said some other things about what really happened with jesus...made me more skeptical of bible stories. But i'm a history, sciency type gal. But, thanks for answering! And yes, your own choice probably does mean more. I'm glad you find so much in your faith.
The thing about jesus, that i hate when it escapes religious people, is not to judge, and do unto others and all that. I was talking to a classmate of mine, who was raised catholic and is still very religious. She has been studying with the jehovah's witnesses, because she found the ritual and trappings of the Catholic faith not for her (confession and all that), she thought it should just be about her, the bible, and god. BUT she has refused to become baptized within the religion, because she doesn't want to be a hypocrite to their rules that she doesn't follow. (sex before marriage, smoking 'you know what') She feels like to do so would be breaking a promise she made, and i admire her for that conviction, yet her still very obvious strong faith. Anyway, interesting stuff! :nod: :wavey:
AMber

[wondergirl9847]

The thing about jesus, that i hate when it escapes religious people, is not to judge, and do unto others and all that.

Anyway, interesting stuff!

That's what I try to do, follow what He taught in terms of not judging people, being kind and loving towards everyone, no matter what race, religion, etc.

Interesting, indeed!

My fave Bible verse:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding.
In all your ways, acknowledge Him,
and he will direct your paths."

--- Proverbs 3: 5-6

[amber]

That's what I try to do, follow what He taught in terms of not judging people, being kind and loving towards everyone, no matter what race, religion, etc.

Interesting, indeed!

My fave Bible verse:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding.
In all your ways, acknowledge Him,
and he will direct your paths."

--- Proverbs 3: 5-6
i'm glad that you like it, but "lean not on your own understanding"? yipes, for me!

[The Tower]

This is one of my favorites from the bible (Leviticus 15:16 through 29):

16 "And if a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water, and be unclean until the evening. 17 And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening. 18 If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the evening. 19 "When a woman has a discharge of blood which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. 20 And everything upon which she lies during her impurity shall be unclean; everything also upon which she sits shall be unclean. 21 And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. 22 And whoever touches anything upon which she sits shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening; 23 whether it is the bed or anything upon which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening. 24 And if any man lies with her, and her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean. 25 "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean. 26 Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity. 27 And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. 28 But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. 29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting."

So remember kiddies- stay away from menstruating women for seven days or else you'll be unclean! Why the feminine hygiene industry hasn't locked into the turtledove/pigeon market is beyond me... they could make a fortune!!!

[GateandGarden]

This is one of my favorites from the bible (Leviticus 15:16 through 29):

16 "And if a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water, and be unclean until the evening. 17 And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening. 18 If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the evening. 19 "When a woman has a discharge of blood which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. 20 And everything upon which she lies during her impurity shall be unclean; everything also upon which she sits shall be unclean. 21 And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. 22 And whoever touches anything upon which she sits shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening; 23 whether it is the bed or anything upon which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening. 24 And if any man lies with her, and her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean. 25 "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean. 26 Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity. 27 And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. 28 But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. 29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting."

So remember kiddies- stay away from menstruating women for seven days or else you'll be unclean! Why the feminine hygiene industry hasn't locked into the turtledove/pigeon market is beyond me... they could make a fortune!!!
Yeah, I had a ball one night reading Leviticus. It's beyond ridiculous. But I have yet to talk to a Christian who takes Leviticus seriously. Leviticus is like the Ringo of the Bible, from my understanding. (Sorry for the big slam on Ringo from out of nowhere). :laugh:

Hillary

[amber]

This is one of my favorites from the bible (Leviticus 15:16 through 29):

16 "And if a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water, and be unclean until the evening. 17 And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening. 18 If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the evening. 19 "When a woman has a discharge of blood which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. 20 And everything upon which she lies during her impurity shall be unclean; everything also upon which she sits shall be unclean. 21 And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. 22 And whoever touches anything upon which she sits shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening; 23 whether it is the bed or anything upon which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening. 24 And if any man lies with her, and her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean. 25 "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean. 26 Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity. 27 And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. 28 But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. 29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting."

So remember kiddies- stay away from menstruating women for seven days or else you'll be unclean! Why the feminine hygiene industry hasn't locked into the turtledove/pigeon market is beyond me... they could make a fortune!!!
Towie, you are awesome.
And I think the bible is the Ringo of the bible...
Amber

[DrummerDeanna]

Leviticus is like the Ringo of the Bible, from my understanding. (Sorry for the big slam on Ringo from out of nowhere). :laugh:

Hillary

:lol: :lol: Holy crap - nearly spit my chai tea all over the monitor at that statement.

Just to clarify - when I said earlier I would shut up - I just meant I'd shut up trying to argue or as I was starting to feel like I was doing "defending" my religion....but ya - in general I'm not shutting up ;)

Leviticus is pretty crazy....in the Bible as Lit class I took we chose which books to read - unfortuately Lev. wasn't chosen :(

Revelation is another entertaining read....it's hard to think the Bible is to be taken competely literally when reading that book - which is just filled to the brim with symbolism - the whole Bible is - symbolism in numbers, animals you name it....from a literary standpoint it really is one of the most fascinating books ever written :nod:

NOW - as for the slam on dear Ringo....;) Actually he's my least favorite Beatle...so anyway - that cracked me up....

[DrummerDeanna]

I grew up in different churches, but could never find one to call a home. I attended a church for about 4 and a half years, that was the longest for going to one, for me. I've struggled with wanting to be part of a church and not. I've not been on a regular basis since 2000.

God's always with you no matter if you go or not. He doesn't abandon you if you decide not to go. I've been baptized and I'm saved. I talk to God and pray to Him for guidance, help, everything. He was there for me during some difficult times in my life. :)


Interesting. I pretty much had been going to the same church since high school - and I miss it.

I'm searching for a place to go here in my new town - it's hard...

And I've been on quite a journey I feel with my faith and spiritual life - I find the worst times in my life were the times when I had turned away completely - but man going back was amazing...

[dissention]

That's not religion

Of course it is.

[dissention]

I think this is a good point, but I also think we're obviously talking about extreme cases. Am I correct in saying that heroin is pretty much always a bad thing? Now that I've typed that, I see how asinine the religion vs. heroin thing is. It started out okay but then it just got silly. Oh well.

Hillary

"Extreme cases" is an incredibly subjective phrase. I consider Christianity to be an extreme case of absurdity and evilness, but that doesn't mean that everyone else thinks so.

And I thought the heroin/religion metaphor was brilliant. :laugh:

[amber]

Of course it is.
oh, right. I'm sorry, i forgot since you said it it must be true. God? is that you?

[dissention]

So - because of a few radical extremists you dislike ALL religion in general? By the same token - because I've met some really crappy atheists should I dislike all atheists I meet?

The absurdity of that statement will go down in the annals of the Ledge, Deanna. :laugh:

I think you're confusing a dislike of religion for a dislike of religious people. As long as their religion isn't being shoved down my throat, I have no problem with religious people. What I have a problem with is religion itself, especially Christianity.

Now I'm done because just as you accuse religious fanatics of being closed minded I feel that when I try to explain or defend my religion or beliefs the more they'll get shot down - I respect other's views - and don't constantly dump on atheists or any other religious group - I don't claim to "know the truth" or "have all the right answers". I like to hear others opinions in a respectful manner...but oh well - this is a subject that people are very passionate about.....so whatever....I've said it before and I'll say it again....To each their own!!

Atheists are not religious people, they do not believe in God or any type of religion. Defending religious views to Atheists is like squeezing EZ Cheese out of a stone. They don't take issue with religious people unless their religious beliefs intrude on their rights not to have anything to do with religion. What they take issue with is religion itself. You follow Christianity, I don't. I don't believe in what it teaches and I find it to be rather vile. We're both entitled to our beliefs. A Christian cannot explain themself to an Atheist, just as an Atheist cannot explain themself to a Christian; it simply does not work.

[dissention]

oh, right. I'm sorry, i forgot since you said it it must be true. God? is that you?

Hey, if you take issue with the definition, write Webster, not me.

[amber]

Hey, if you take issue with the definition, write Webster, not me.
Well, your holiness, In the case of Jim Jones, and the other guy, I do not consider what took place to be the essence of religion.

[GypsySorcerer]

Atheists are not religious people, they do not believe in God or any type of religion. Defending religious views to Atheists is like squeezing EZ Cheese out of a stone. They don't take issue with religious people unless their religious beliefs intrude on their rights not to have anything to do with religion. What they take issue with is religion itself. You follow Christianity, I don't. I don't believe in what it teaches and I find it to be rather vile. We're both entitled to our beliefs. A Christian cannot explain themself to an Atheist, just as an Atheist cannot explain themself to a Christian; it simply does not work.

Can you elaborate on what parts you think are vile? I'm curious. :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

Can you elaborate on what parts you think are vile? I'm curious. :wavey:I'm curious to read what you have to say about this too, diss.

Hillary

[The Tower]

Can you elaborate on what parts you think are vile? I'm curious. :wavey:

Speaking for myself- you could start with my previous post containing that lovely scripture from Leviticus.

Or maybe the whole- "If you have not been saved by Jesus you're going to burn in hell for all eternity"- that stuff is pretty vile.

Or howsabout "love the sinner hate the sin" bull****, that's a hot one. "Don't take it personally dear, I don't hate you- I just hate who you are."

Or we could always take the whole deal about how there's no reason to get upset about Leviticus because that's not really part of the bible and you should only pay attention to the parts that I think are relevant because after all this was written by people that we can't even identify, much less corroborate, and things were so much different 4000 years ago and none of that stuff has relevance in today's modern life- but did I mention that the bible says that as a homosexual you're a sinner and you're going to burn in hell and that it says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

Yeah, you're right. Where was my head- how could I have ever thought of christianity as vile??? Stupid me.

[tommer]

(and i was thinking "omg, religion's been going hand in hand with violence and hatred for centuries, and still they need explenations!")

[Hawkeye]

I think a line Kyle had in one epsidode of South Park best describes how I feel about Christianity. He said, "If all the non-christians are wrong then they will burn in hell forever. But if the Christians were wrong and their religion was a load of crap then well nothing happens," So while I agree that the bible and christianity can be very very cruel and God himself the way he is in the bible can be outright mean, BUT I like to think of it as an insurance policy, and just WHAT IF. I mean do you REALIZE how LONG eternity is. If there's even a slim chance the bible is right, I'm going to freaking call myself christian and believe jesus died for my sins and all that stuff.

I mean all ypou atheists are taking a BIG gamble.

[GateandGarden]

Speaking for myself- you could start with my previous post containing that lovely scripture from Leviticus.

Or maybe the whole- "If you have not been saved by Jesus you're going to burn in hell for all eternity"- that stuff is pretty vile.

Or howsabout "love the sinner hate the sin" bull****, that's a hot one. "Don't take it personally dear, I don't hate you- I just hate who you are."

Or we could always take the whole deal about how there's no reason to get upset about Leviticus because that's not really part of the bible and you should only pay attention to the parts that I think are relevant because after all this was written by people that we can't even identify, much less corroborate, and things were so much different 4000 years ago and none of that stuff has relevance in today's modern life- but did I mention that the bible says that as a homosexual you're a sinner and you're going to burn in hell and that it says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

Yeah, you're right. Where was my head- how could I have ever thought of christianity as vile??? Stupid me.
All of those things are incredibly vile; you'll get no argument from me on that. Things like that have made me want to despise anything having to do with religion, and you can believe that when I'm not having the best day, I do sometimes. But I feel like that's unfair. Religion is not all about those things, thankfully. And there are numerous Christians out there who do not consider those views you mentioned to be a part of their belief system at all. Have you ever been to Soulforce.org (http://www.soulforce.org)? It's a religious (mainly Christian) organization started by the Rev. Mel White, who is gay. I don't see it as being something for me, but I can't see anything wrong with it as long as it not used in a negative way towards others. Granted, there are endless ways to use it in the opposite way that it was intended, but there are people out there who don't do that. Trust me, I am the epitome of a non-religious person, but I have friends who are considerably religious and simultaneously enlightened and open-minded, and I really respect where they're coming from.

Hillary

[The Tower]

I think a line Kyle had in one epsidode of South Park best describes how I feel about Christianity. He said, "If all the non-christians are wrong then they will burn in hell forever. But if the Christians were wrong and their religion was a load of crap then well nothing happens," So while I agree that the bible and christianity can be very very cruel and God himself the way he is in the bible can be outright mean, BUT I like to think of it as an insurance policy, and just WHAT IF. I mean do you REALIZE how LONG eternity is. If there's even a slim chance the bible is right, I'm going to freaking call myself christian and believe jesus died for my sins and all that stuff.

I mean all ypou atheists are taking a BIG gamble.

The workings of (or more appropriately, the NON-workings of) the human brain continue to astound me every single day.

No wonder Dubya is in the White House.

[GateandGarden]

I think a line Kyle had in one epsidode of South Park best describes how I feel about Christianity. He said, "If all the non-christians are wrong then they will burn in hell forever. But if the Christians were wrong and their religion was a load of crap then well nothing happens," So while I agree that the bible and christianity can be very very cruel and God himself the way he is in the bible can be outright mean, BUT I like to think of it as an insurance policy, and just WHAT IF. I mean do you REALIZE how LONG eternity is. If there's even a slim chance the bible is right, I'm going to freaking call myself christian and believe jesus died for my sins and all that stuff.

I mean all ypou atheists are taking a BIG gamble.With all due respect to the power of religion to help and heal people in many situations, I have to say that what you've said sounds aboslutely preposterous to me. You've definitely implied that you've been forced to believe by fear, by this minute chance that if you belonged to one of the many, many other religions besides Christianity, some of which have been around longer anyway, or weren't a member of a religion at all (and a growing number of people fit into that category) then you're just going to go to hell. I don't see that as particularly genuine. You're not believing it because you love God or Jesus--you want to save your ass, end of story. What if the Muslims are right? Well, you're taking a BIG gamble. This works several ways, you know.

Of course, that is really no more or less absurd than when you said that one can't be gay and moral.
:rolleyes:

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

This thread has taken some interesting turns.

The workings of (or more appropriately, the NON-workings of) the human brain continue to astound me every single day.

No wonder Dubya is in the White House.And that's what I meant to say, basically, it just took me longer for some reason.

Hillary

[heyjupiter678]

And that's what I meant to say, basically, it just took me longer for some reason.
:laugh: :laugh: You're just thorough!

And I agree with you and Tower. Hawkeye, with all due respect, that's one of the most absurd and sad things I've read in a long time. :confused:

[GypsySorcerer]

Speaking for myself- you could start with my previous post containing that lovely scripture from Leviticus.

Or maybe the whole- "If you have not been saved by Jesus you're going to burn in hell for all eternity"- that stuff is pretty vile.

Or howsabout "love the sinner hate the sin" bull****, that's a hot one. "Don't take it personally dear, I don't hate you- I just hate who you are."

Or we could always take the whole deal about how there's no reason to get upset about Leviticus because that's not really part of the bible and you should only pay attention to the parts that I think are relevant because after all this was written by people that we can't even identify, much less corroborate, and things were so much different 4000 years ago and none of that stuff has relevance in today's modern life- but did I mention that the bible says that as a homosexual you're a sinner and you're going to burn in hell and that it says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

Yeah, you're right. Where was my head- how could I have ever thought of christianity as vile??? Stupid me.

Um, I asked because I am sincerely interested in other's view of Christianity. I have talked to atheists who had respect for Jesus' teachings, even though they didn't believe he was the son of God and whatnot.

If you could direct me to where I've shoved my religion down your throat, please do. Other than that, sorry for wanting to have frank and open discussions about religion. My mistake. :rolleyes:

[GypsySorcerer]

(and i was thinking "omg, religion's been going hand in hand with violence and hatred for centuries, and still they need explenations!")

You don't think I've haven't heard that argument before? Please.

Sorry, but when you lump all religions people together by making statements like that, you're being as closeminded as you say we are.

[GateandGarden]

If you could direct me to where I've shoved my religion down your throat, please do.I'm pretty sure no one could, and I think that helps to prove the point I was trying to make earlier. (In post #139).

Hillary

[GypsySorcerer]

I'm pretty sure no one could, and I think that helps to prove the point I was trying to make earlier. (In post #139).

Hillary

Like you said in the post, Christianity (and most religions, really) have been responsible for some pretty ugly things. After all, humans make up their membership. I try to be as open-minded as I can, and for the most part, people have afforded me the same courtesy. I think our generation is much more tolerant and accepting. We still have a way to go, I know, but it's better.

[GateandGarden]

Like you said in the post, Christianity (and most religions, really) have been responsible for some pretty ugly things. After all, humans make up their membership. I try to be as open-minded as I can, and for the most part, people have afforded me the same courtesy. I think our generation is much more tolerant and accepting. We still have a way to go, I know, but it's better.I agree. I think it is getting better and better. Recently I've been encountering more and more Christians (and followers of other religions) who are open-minded like you. They are still too few and far between, but at least things are getting better.

Hillary

[GypsySorcerer]

I agree. I think it is getting better and better. Recently I've been encountering more and more Christians (and followers of other religions) who are open-minded like you. They are still too few and far between, but at least things are getting better.

Hillary

Thank you. :)

I grew up in a very rural area; everyone white, mostly Christian. Heavily Democratic area, but socially conservative. I was raised pretty sheltered and the whole area was fairly intolerant.

The best thing I ever did was leave that area, meet tons of new, diverse people, and chose to expose myself to as much as possible. I am grateful I left every day. :nod:

[estranged4life]

Like you said in the post, Christianity (and most religions, really) have been responsible for some pretty ugly things. After all, humans make up their membership. I try to be as open-minded as I can, and for the most part, people have afforded me the same courtesy. I think our generation is much more tolerant and accepting. We still have a way to go, I know, but it's better.

there were more open-minded Christians in this area, But those chances are slim & none and "Slim" just left the building...

At least there seems to be more here online than on this side of the screen where I reside :nod:

Brian j.

[The Tower]

Um, I asked because I am sincerely interested in other's view of Christianity. I have talked to atheists who had respect for Jesus' teachings, even though they didn't believe he was the son of God and whatnot.

If you could direct me to where I've shoved my religion down your throat, please do. Other than that, sorry for wanting to have frank and open discussions about religion. My mistake. :rolleyes:

Am I missing something? You asked the question and I gave you several answers.

I have respect for Jesus' teachings, I just don't have a lot of respect for his followers who have twisted and/or ignored those teachings to the point where we have so-called "christians" holding up signs that say "Matthew Shepard will burn in hell".

I never said all christians were to the level of Fred Phelps- but the bible is the bible. Either you follow the word of god or you don't. At some point, the intolerance will show, because the bible in and of itself is intolerant.Water it down, ignore the yucky parts, abridge the damn thing if you want- if you're not going to adhere to your scripture, then why even participate in the religion at all? I didn't create your rules/scripture, so don't complain to me when people are extremely offended by christianity's intolerance.

I never even inferred that you personally have shoved your religion down my throat. I'm all for having frank and open discussions regarding religion and, in particular, christianity. If you can't handle truth and historical fact, that's not my problem.

[wondergirl9847]

I have respect for Jesus' teachings, I just don't have a lot of respect for his followers who have twisted and/or ignored those teachings to the point where we have so-called "christians" holding up signs that say "Matthew Shepard will burn in hell".

Those types of people, people who bomb abortion clinics, etc. would probably be in shock at Jesus if He walked the earth today. He shocked the Pharisees with His thoughts about certain things. Jesus ate/hung out with sinners, prostitutes, etc. because He loved everyone, no matter what. Showing compassion and love towards people is what He did and I wish I were more like Him. :)

[GypsySorcerer]

Am I missing something? You asked the question and I gave you several answers.

I have respect for Jesus' teachings, I just don't have a lot of respect for his followers who have twisted and/or ignored those teachings to the point where we have so-called "christians" holding up signs that say "Matthew Shepard will burn in hell".

I never said all christians were to the level of Fred Phelps- but the bible is the bible. Either you follow the word of god or you don't. At some point, the intolerance will show, because the bible in and of itself is intolerant.Water it down, ignore the yucky parts, abridge the damn thing if you want- if you're not going to adhere to your scripture, then why even participate in the religion at all? I didn't create your rules/scripture, so don't complain to me when people are extremely offended by christianity's intolerance.

I never even inferred that you personally have shoved your religion down my throat. I'm all for having frank and open discussions regarding religion and, in particular, christianity. If you can't handle truth and historical fact, that's not my problem.

I got the impression that you interpreted more from my question than was intended. I wasn't expecting you to come down easily on Christianity. I was curious to see which specific parts you and others thought were vile; I guess you thought I couldn't believe someone could think of the Bible as vile.

I disagree with your second paragraph, though. Over time, things change. Girls getting married when they were children and slavery are two things found in the Bible that are no longer acceptable and are wrong. I do not believe that God still wants us to practice those things just because it's in the Bible. I think many people realize now that homosexuality, as discussed in the Bible, simply is not how we understand it in modern terms. In fact, many Biblical scholars believe the passages discussing homosexuality refer to the condemning of pedophilia and/or orgies. I have investigated myself and agree. There is also strong evidence of homosexual couples in the Bible who were favored by God.

Anyway, the Bible was written by man and is read by man, and is therefore subject to interpretation. You and I could read the same poem and arrive at different conclusions....but no one really knows how the author intended his/her work to be interpreted.

Thanks for answering. :wavey:

[amber]

I never said all christians were to the level of Fred Phelps- but the bible is the bible. Either you follow the word of god or you don't. At some point, the intolerance will show, because the bible in and of itself is intolerant.Water it down, ignore the yucky parts, abridge the damn thing if you want- if you're not going to adhere to your scripture, then why even participate in the religion at all?
Good point. :nod:

[amber]

I got the impression that you interpreted more from my question than was intended. I wasn't expecting you to come down easily on Christianity. I was curious to see which specific parts you and others thought were vile; I guess you thought I couldn't believe someone could think of the Bible as vile.

I disagree with your second paragraph, though. Over time, things change. Girls getting married when they were children and slavery are two things found in the Bible that are no longer acceptable and are wrong. I do not believe that God still wants us to practice those things just because it's in the Bible. I think many people realize now that homosexuality, as discussed in the Bible, simply is not how we understand it in modern terms. In fact, many Biblical scholars believe the passages discussing homosexuality refer to the condemning of pedophilia and/or orgies. I have investigated myself and agree. There is also strong evidence of homosexual couples in the Bible who were favored by God.:
so you do believe in the bible, but you don't? :shrug:

Anyway, the Bible was written by man and is read by man, and is therefore subject to interpretation. You and I could read the same poem and arrive at different conclusions....but no one really knows how the author intended his/her work to be interpreted.
:
right, so why take the bible as the word of god? And if you believe some parts are the word of god, but other parts are inconvenient and outdated, and that god wouldn't want us to do that, then how can you believe any of it is the word of god? does that mean you actually just pick and choose which parts are the word of god? :shrug:

[amber]

I'm sure this Jesus fellow was a great guy with good intentions, but he's just the one who got famous.
This is what historical knowledge suggest. A bunch of christians were getting killed at the time, etc.

[GypsySorcerer]

so you do believe in the bible, but you don't? :shrug:


right, so why take the bible as the word of god? And if you believe some parts are the word of god, but other parts are inconvenient and outdated, and that god wouldn't want us to do that, then how can you believe any of it is the word of god? does that mean you actually just pick and choose which parts are the word of god? :shrug:

I believe in the Jesus spoken of in the Bible. As I stated, the Bible was written by man.......not by God.

I also believe God is a living God; meaning his is involved in life here on Earth. I think He does things on His own time.

Check out the site religioustolerance.org, and check out the articles on Biblical interpretation. Its explanation is much more eloquent that mine. :)

[amber]

I believe in the Jesus spoken of in the Bible. As I stated, the Bible was written by man.......not by God.:)
so why do you even believe what is written about jesus? After all, some guy just wrote it...

I also believe God is a living God; meaning his is involved in life here on Earth. I think He does things on His own time. :)
Are you saying he's changed his mind from what was supposedly his word when the bible was written? do you think god believes in evolution, now? And has changed his mind about women, marriage, sex, etc?

Check out the site religioustolerance.org, and check out the articles on Biblical interpretation. Its explanation is much more eloquent that mine. :)
hmmm, maybe...

[GypsySorcerer]

so why do you even believe what is written about jesus? After all, some guy just wrote it...

Are you saying he's changed his mind from what was supposedly his word when the bible was written? do you think god believes in evolution, now? And has changed his mind about women, marriage, sex, etc?

hmmm, maybe...

People who do not take the Bible literally must decide for themselves what is true or not. Jesus actually spoke very little in the Bible. What he did say, though, is what I follow:

1) Love God.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

Read this for more information on liberal interpretations of the Bible: http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm#impt

[amber]

People who do not take the Bible literally must decide for themselves what is true or not. Jesus actually spoke very little in the Bible. What he did say, though, is what I follow:

1) Love God.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

Read this for more information on liberal interpretations of the Bible: http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm#impt
okay, my point really is, and has been, If you don't take all the bible, why take any of the bible? I mean, if you don't want the whole bible, why do you even believe jesus said that?

[GypsySorcerer]

okay, my point really is, and has been, If you don't take all the bible, why take any of the bible? I mean, if you don't want the whole bible, why do you even believe jesus said that?


It's not so much about the Bible. For me, it's about having faith and a relationship with God. It's about me trying to become a better, kinder person. The Bible is a book of many people's own spiritual journeys with God.

[amber]

It's not so much about the Bible. For me, it's about having faith and a relationship with God. It's about me trying to become a better, kinder person. The Bible is a book of many people's own spiritual journeys with God.
Would you even have known about god if not for the bible?

[GypsySorcerer]

Would you even have known about god if not for the bible?

Many people who are not Christians believe in a higher authority. Other religions worship the same God as I do. As far as monotheistic faiths, I believe that Judaism and Islam are every bit as valid as Christianity. I also think that other religious paths may hold truth for other people. Many people desire spirituality in their lives, and we just have different paths we follow. :wavey:

[amber]

Many people who are not Christians believe in a higher authority. Other religions worship the same God as I do. As far as monotheistic faiths, I believe that Judaism and Islam are every bit as valid as Christianity. I also think that other religious paths may hold truth for other people. Many people desire spirituality in their lives, and we just have different paths we follow. :wavey:
Right, so why pick this one? Why pick one with a heinous bible? :shrug: And would we know god was there, without all these texts? Seems to me we should...You notice how animals don't care about god? but they're fine?
hehe, you don't have to answer if you don't want...
AMber

[wondergirl9847]

I believe we are above animals...we are not on the same plane in terms of higher intelligence. Animals and God have a separate relationship since He created them too, but they were put here for a different reason than we were. God created man in His image...not animals.

How do we know Christopher Columbus was a real person? Abraham Lincoln? Davy Crockett? Because of historical documentation. God gave us the Bible so we could learn more about Him.

[amber]

I believe we are above animals...we are not on the same plane in terms of higher intelligence. Animals and God have a separate relationship since He created them too, but they were put here for a different reason than we were. God created man in His image...not animals.
um, this is my least favorite part about what the bible says. And, whatever, if you think we are not animals, or are above them. And, of course, i don't believe god created us in his image, i think some guy who wrote the bible just said that, cause he was a man. This is kind of what i mean when i can't believe the things people believe...how do you know god didn't create Eagles, or foxes, in his image? Just because some human wrote that down? Of course a human would write that god created us in his image. :shrug: I'm sorry, it's all very absurd to me. Just cause some guy wrote it, doesn't make it true...And if he did create us in his image, then he sure did a crappy job...


How do we know Christopher Columbus was a real person? Because of historical documentation. God gave us the Bible so we could learn more about Him.
yeah, i don't really think of the Bible as the best historical documentation. And even if it is, i don't think "god" gave it to us. So, really, we have next to nothing to discuss, about that. I can't hold even one iota of these views you've presented. Sorry bout that. Respectfully sorry, of course...but it's ok, because you probably can't understand how someone wouldn't believe in God and the Bible. so we're even-steven :) :wavey:

[estranged4life]

of people mentioned in the Bible are not the type of names associated with the Middle East, Which were the stories took place?

Mary (How many Middle Eastern women are named Mary?)
Joseph (Great...Jesus' Dad's name is Joe...Man, That is WAYYYYY Middle Easterner N-O-T!)

I am suprised we didnt have a Jim-Bob or Edna as names in the Bible...Just think if Jesus would have been Billy-Bob? :lol:

Brian j.

[amber]

of people mentioned in the Bible are not the type of names associated with the Middle East, Which were the stories took place?

Mary (How many Middle Eastern women are named Mary?)
Joseph (Great...Jesus' Dad's name is Joe...Man, That is WAYYYYY Middle Easterner N-O-T!)

I am suprised we didnt have a Jim-Bob or Edna as names in the Bible...Just think if Jesus would have been Billy-Bob? :lol:

Brian j.

ohyeah! What's up with that? uh, Roman influence? there are other names in the bible that are middle eastern, though, i think...

[estranged4life]

ohyeah! What's up with that? uh, Roman influence? there are other names in the bible that are middle eastern, though, i think...

Middle Eastern names throughout the Bible...But at least the writers didnt make the worse mistake possible with names:

Lindsey as a female name and Stevie as a male name!!!

That is the death-knell of names in the world of Fleetwood Mac!

Brian "Can ya imagined if Adam was changed to Lindsey & Eve changed to Stevie...I think they wouldnt need Cain to commit the first murder with their ongoing love/hate relationship" j.

[amber]

Middle Eastern names throughout the Bible...But at least the writers didnt make the worse mistake possible with names:

Lindsey as a female name and Stevie as a male name!!!

That is the death-knell of names in the world of Fleetwood Mac!

Brian "Can ya imagined if Adam was changed to Lindsey & Eve changed to Stevie...I think they wouldnt need Cain to commit the first murder with their ongoing love/hate relationship" j.
um...oh, yeah, the bible actually says the first names of people were adam and eve. Absurd, again, specially in the face of scientific evidence.
Actually, Brian, they discovered a prehistoric man and woman, perfectly preserved, and the man was choking the woman, and the woman had many supplicants around her, which they did name "Lindsey" and "Stevie". haven't you seen that PBS special? :laugh:

[Hawkeye]

Can ya imagined if Adam was changed to Lindsey & Eve changed to Stevie

That'd be great :laugh:

[wondergirl9847]

And if he did create us in his image, then he sure did a crappy job...

Wish you didn't feel that way because the human race is totally amazing. Sure, there are people in the world who act crappy and do crappy things, but overall, we're pretty awesome in the way we act, think and function.

Why do you believe He did "a crappy job"?

[amber]

Wish you didn't feel that way because the human race is totally amazing. Sure, there are people in the world who act crappy and do crappy things, but overall, we're pretty awesome in the way we act, think and function.

Why do you believe He did "a crappy job"?
what i meant was that the statement "he created us in his image" underestimates god a lot. And his image.

[wondergirl9847]

How did this thread go from capital punishment to Church Chat with Christy and Amber? LMAO!!

Anywho....man was perfect, without sin, according to Genesis....until Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. We were created in God's image....without sin.

[GateandGarden]

Anywho....man was perfect, without sin, according to Genesis....until Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. We were created in God's image....without sin.This is not meant to be offensive in the least, but I have a hard time taking that seriously, since virtually every Christian I've talked to in the past few years has said that the Old Testament is only to be taken symbolically. :shrug:

Hillary

[DrummerDeanna]

Ugh - I wish I could keep my mouth shut - guess not :rolleyes:

The Bible NOT a historical document? It is one the of the oldest books in existence...it sure as hell is a historical document - or a historical artifact at least - sure it's been interpreted down through the years - but it has survived for a helluva long time - that in itself is pretty amazing.

It's fine that you don't believe in it or God - but ya know we are respecting your views - I have not once referred to any of you as vile, or your beliefs as vile - (no you didn't refer to ME as vile - but my religion is? well- um...that's very offensive....it's somewhat akin to love the sinner hate the sin - "Oh I like you okay - but all you believe is vile and stupid...") :shrug: I'm beginning to feel as though you're being just as bad as the people you're putting down for being judgemental all that....perhaps I'm reading too much into things?

I don't believe the Bible is intolerant - if one thinks that then they've obviously missed the entire point of the book - which teaches love, patience, tolerance and kindness - there are some ugly things in there...true - they're stories written to illustrate points.....but overwhemingly the book is about love...OH and Amber - ours is not the only religion with a "heinous Bible" (was that term really necessary?) other books just have different names....

So anyway - perhaps you can discuss your misgivings with Christianity without resorting to name-calling and disrespect? Why can't people just respect the views of others? I know I very much try to do that...I know some don't - but two wrongs, as they say, do not make a right :)

[amber]

.OH and Amber - ours is not the only religion with a "heinous Bible" (was that term really necessary?) other books just have different names....

:)
yep, that's why i said why pick one with a heinous bible. Implying there are others. well, part of the bible is heinous. You can say it's not the point, but it's still there. In the bible. Once again, i don't understand the "pick and choose which parts you want to believe" argument. If you believe some is the word of god, and some isn't the word of god, and you get to pick which parts, well, I think that is illogical. And it's an old book, but i don't think it accurately represents history. I misspoke when i said Historical Document, really what i meant was a document that accurately represents history. I'm not sure I name called anyone, except the bible, which is not a person, but if i did, i apologize. And if you think calling the bible heinous is akin to "hate the sinner, not the sin", i think saying the bible is ok to follow because of the good parts is kind of the same thing. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

yep, that's why i said why pick one with a heinous bible. Implying there are others. well, part of the bible is heinous. You can say it's not the point, but it's still there. In the bible. Once again, i don't understand the "pick and choose which parts you want to believe" argument. If you believe some is the word of god, and some isn't the word of god, and you get to pick which parts, well, I think that is illogical. And it's an old book, but i don't think it accurately represents history. I misspoke when i said Historical Document, really what i meant was a document that accurately represents history. I'm not sure I name called anyone, except the bible, which is not a person, but if i did, i apologize. And if you think calling the bible heinous is akin to "hate the sinner, not the sin", i think saying the bible is ok to follow because of the good parts is kind of the same thing. :shrug:


Ah - I see....

Well - I honeslty don't have an anwer to the question about picking and choosing parts of the Bible...I mean, I don't take any parts literally per se....sooo I don't know...

I also pick and choose things to believe within my own religion - Catholics are very pro-life (I am very pro-choice), I am totally pro-gay rights, I think women should be ordanied as priests, AND - I think priests should be able to marry...

So I'm just a pick and chooser....but it's my faith, my religion and I think people need to do what's right for them (as long as it's not harming others).

Why choose THIS religion? I was raised with it, I'm comfortable with it, I find a lot of beauty in it and I love it - celebrating mass, the ritual, there is comfort in it - and meaning and it fills me with love and optimism - which is hard for me to come by in this world....it's just right for me.

[amber]

Ah - I see....

Well - I honeslty don't have an anwer to the question about picking and choosing parts of the Bible...I mean, I don't take any parts literally per se....sooo I don't know...

I also pick and choose things to believe within my own religion - Catholics are very pro-life (I am very pro-choice), I am totally pro-gay rights, I think women should be ordanied as priests, AND - I think priests should be able to marry...

So I'm just a pick and chooser....but it's my faith, my religion and I think people need to do what's right for them (as long as it's not harming others).

Why choose THIS religion? I was raised with it, I'm comfortable with it, I find a lot of beauty in it and I love it - celebrating mass, the ritual, there is comfort in it - and meaning and it fills me with love and optimism - which is hard for me to come by in this world....it's just right for me.
ok. I, myself like midnight mass. but mainly cause you get to sing Xmas songs. :D I didn't mean to offend you,( :xoxo: ) these are basically questions I have for people who are religious, religion being taken from the bible. But it seems from talking to people, they were usually raised with the religion, so maybe haven't thought about these questions, or if they have, it somehow came out to be logical and ok to them. Which is what i'm trying to understand.
Since i am approaching these questions from a non-faith based standpoint, i come to different conclusions about the Bible, god, etc. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

ok. I, myself like midnight mass. but mainly cause you get to sing Xmas songs. :D I didn't mean to offend you,( :xoxo: ) these are basically questions I have for people who are religious, religion being taken from the bible. But it seems from talking to people, they were usually raised with the religion, so maybe haven't thought about these questions, or if they have, it somehow came out to be logical and ok to them. Which is what i'm trying to understand.
Since i am approaching these questions from a non-faith based standpoint, i come to different conclusions about the Bible, god, etc. :shrug:


Right. Nothing wrong with asking questions - at all - it's the name-calling and such that I find offensive and quite unnecessary.

I was taught to question everything - never to just take something - and I was taught this in a religious ed class! So I have struggled and journeyed with my faith and have come to where I am now...I'm sure more battles and struggles will follow...but yeah...that's just me..

The key-word here is faith - I don't need exact answers to everything - I am a woman of faith, I believe and I do so, sometimes without solid proof or exact answers - that's what religion and faith is all about...faith.

[amber]

The key-word here is faith - I don't need exact answers to everything - I am a woman of faith, I believe and I do so, sometimes without solid proof or exact answers - that's what religion and faith is all about...faith.
Yes, but again, it's faith in something that the Bible set forth. :confused: You know, faith based on the Bible?
ahh, nevermind...
I don't need exact answers to some things i believe in either. But those things aren't based on the Bible. which attempts to have exact answers to things...
ahhh.... :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

Yes, but again, it's faith in something that the Bible set forth. :confused: You know, faith based on the Bible?
ahh, nevermind...
I don't need exact answers to some things i believe in either. But those things aren't based on the Bible. which attempts to have exact answers to things...
ahhh.... :shrug:


Okay - my faith is based on a belief in a supreme being which is called God, also that God sent to Earth his only begotten son so that man could be enlightened and saved. Those things are described in the Bible so I guess you could say my faith is based on the Bible...:shrug: Still not sure what's wrong with that really - I've read it, I have studied it - it's a good book overall with good lessons in which to use in life....I don't go around living every moment thinking about what the Bible is saying....it's not like that...

It's clear that many don't have any understanding of the Bible - either academically or otherwise...so it's pointless to argue or try and defend something that people are so opposed to anyway...it's just my way of life - I'm happy with it, it makes me happy, I don't expect everyone to live that way though....and don't think anyone is stupid, deluded or vile for not believing or living the way I do...

Am I totally missing the goal with what your saying? I'm just trying to make my stance clear - as well as ask that when people talk about this to try and do so respectfully :)

[amber]

Okay - my faith is based on a belief in a supreme being which is called God, also that God sent to Earth his only begotten son so that man could be enlightened and saved. Those things are described in the Bible so I guess you could say my faith is based on the Bible...:shrug: Still not sure what's wrong with that really - I've read it, I have studied it - it's a good book overall with good lessons in which to use in life....I don't go around living every moment thinking about what the Bible is saying....it's not like that...

It's clear that many don't have any understanding of the Bible - either academically or otherwise...so it's pointless to argue or try and defend something that people are so opposed to anyway...it's just my way of life - I'm happy with it, it makes me happy, I don't expect everyone to live that way though....and don't think anyone is stupid, deluded or vile for not believing or living the way I do...

Am I totally missing the goal with what your saying? I'm just trying to make my stance clear - as well as ask that when people talk about this to try and do so respectfully :)
no, i understand your point. But again it circled back to why do you believe that part of the bible when either you don't believe all of it, or that much of it is, uh...reprehensible? If some parts aren't true or right, why do you think others are? I guess is my point with that.
But i mean, i don't really think you can answer that, except by saying what you've already said...
so, that's fine.

[GateandGarden]

I think Amber is saying that she feels like Christians (and other religious people) should want to have a book they can say they believe in wholeheartedly and believe every single word of. She doesn't want to put her faith in something if she doesn't believe all of it. I see where you're coming from, Amber, but I don't think such a thing exists, you know? I don't think we can find a perfect book; something in it is going to be reprehensible. And people like to have a belief system, and Christianity is one that is valid. Certainly, the love, forgiveness, tolerance, charity, etc. that is taught in Christian churches can be found elsewhere, and not necessarily in an organized religion, but many have found that in Christianity. And we're all after the same thing (hopefully), and we just find different ways of getting there. What's the harm in that? Well, that's my half-assed explanation of how I look at it, anyway. :shrug:

Hillary

[Jessica Leigh]

SO WHAT!!! What they need to do is make the death penalty MORE Painful and SLOW, but for those who deserve it of course. I think they should use less of the Death Penalty and only when they are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure and the crime is suitable then OF COURSE I support the death penalty. I don;t see how you can't. I know Brian will agree with this, Timothy McViehg didn't deserve a quick and painless death. He deserved to be tortured for a month, and then have his eyes ripped out and his arms cut off and to be thrown into a sea of piranas, and kept alive so he wishes he'd die but you still keep him alive until maybe after a week you give him a lethal injection. And the Sniper from a few years ago and Osama Bin Laden and child molestors all deserve that same punishment. Capitol punishment shouldn't be banned, it should be made much more harsh then it is!

yeah... i agree... and do it quickly so i'm not paying for him or her to live in air conditioning with cable tv and a gym and all that shlt they get in prison.... i work for my money for my air conditioning and for my cable tv and gym membership.... i don't wanna pay taxes for a convicted murderer to have his.

[GateandGarden]

yeah... i agree... and do it quickly so i'm not paying for him or her to live in air conditioning with cable tv and a gym and all that shlt they get in prison.... i work for my money for my air conditioning and for my cable tv and gym membership.... i don't wanna pay taxes for a convicted murderer to have his.Last time I checked, prisoners in maximum security prisons who have committed crimes on that level do not get such amenities, and certainly not on death row.

Hillary

[GardenStateGirlie]

Last time I checked, prisoners in maximum security prisons who have committed crimes on that level do not get such amenities, and certainly not on death row.

Hillary

Death row or not, I shouldn't have to pay for a criminal of any kind to get a college education and to have things that some people can't even afford that haven't done anything wrong. Were you aware that prisioners received flu shots this year? WTF do they need a flu shot for?

[GateandGarden]

Death row or not, I shouldn't have to pay for a criminal of any kind to get a college education and to have things that some people can't even afford that haven't done anything wrong. Were you aware that prisioners received flu shots this year? WTF do they need a flu shot for?What about reforming prisoners? I know some of the amenities are going too far (or at least I tend to think so), but why should the justice system just give up on them, assume there's no help for them and figure they'll never become productive members of society?

Hillary

[tommer]

generally i try to respect religious people, i really do. it's just like i don't like people lecturing me about my smoking; i know the dangers, but please let me treat my life the way i see right. the reason i say this is because i don't wanna look like i'm critisizing people's beliefs, but the notion of Religion itself. since i believe in the antithesis, explaining it must critisize the thesis, so excuse me.

history proved us that mankind desperetly needed some kind of god. every civilization had some form or another of a superior power to worship, ask for aid and guidence, and especially get their answers from (or more accurately- base upon). only modern thinking let us start breaking free from these old chains. even today, the vast majority of mankind is religious.

i'm not a big scholar, and there are so many things i don't know, many of them science gave us no answer to up to this point in time, but that's fine, science is young, there are many questions that may take centuries to answer accurately. but you know what? i can live with that. i'm actually a simpleton, i don't care why the world turns as long as i don't fall off it.
i do realize tho, that most humens MUST get many answers and certainties that i don't give **** about, for them, when physics can't answer (or give explenations that are too complicated or radical to accept)- there's always the metaphysic.

the bible in my opinion is nothing but a collection of myths, and the most important philosophy book in history. but in fact, archeologists never managed to prove the mythic part right, you won't find a shred of evidence in the entire state of israel to prove a single ancient bible story right. ain't it amazing?
as for the philosophic part, it goes hand in hand with the myths, if you choose to believe the myth then you are "doomed" by morals which were the best and the most advanced ones in hand at the time in which those texts became holy. it's quite simple. excuse me, but i don't want my moral guidence to be thousands of years old, not that all of those are wrong, but i'd like to believe that human values change and advance with time.

[Jessica Leigh]

Amber and Deanna-

your Christianity discussion is totally interesting.... i do have a question for Amber though.... are you asking all of these questions about christianity and the Bible because you aren't educated in Christian tradition and history and you are interested in learning about it? or are you challenging the beliefs of people you don't understand? If this comes off as bitchy or anything I'm sorry, I'm not meaning for it to sound like that... I'm just curious....

Deanna had a good point with her post about name calling... if you don't know a whole lot about the Bible and some of the concepts of what Christians believe confuse you, then go learn about it... but if you are just asking to challenge and berate people here and call them names... that's not cool! Christians believe that God gave them free will... so naturally people are going to make their own choices... they don't have to believe every word of the Bible as if it came from God's mouth... some Xns (Christians) DO believe in every word of the Bible as God's word... those people are called Fundamentalists and are often the Bible thumpers and Evangelists who can be scary.

Some Xns (Catholics, Old Protestant religions such as Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians) believe that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God... which means that men wrote it based on divine inspiration... and if you read the Bible, not all of it is "god wants you to do this and this." Much of the New Testament (Jesus' life and teachings and Xnity after him) is STORIES about the life of a dude named Jesus and things that he did- many of which were written by some of his friends after he died... so yeah, it is a pretty good historical document.... It's like if you died and your friends put together a photo album and wrote down stories about you and what you did in your life. Other parts of the Bible are open for interpretation... really now... when you listen to a Stevie song you dont always take it literally do you? i mean... do you think Stevie climbed a mountain and saw her reflection in a mirror floating up in the sky? and then she fell down the mountain when a landslide occured? ouch!

ok i'm tired of typing now... i might come back later......

Oh and by the way... i'm not religious... i'm just fascinated by religion and am minoring in it and telling you what i have learned in school.

[Jessica Leigh]

Death row or not, I shouldn't have to pay for a criminal of any kind to get a college education and to have things that some people can't even afford that haven't done anything wrong. Were you aware that prisioners received flu shots this year? WTF do they need a flu shot for?

You're f-ing kidding! they got flu shots? they are rationing them here! i'm a relatively healthy 20- something so i don't get one.

[GardenStateGirlie]

What about reforming prisoners? I know some of the amenities are going too far (or at least I tend to think so), but why should the justice system just give up on them, assume there's no help for them and figure they'll never become productive members of society?

Hillary

I know a few people that haven't had the best lives. However, they're not going around and killing people. I'm not saying that I have no compassion...I just really lack compassion where these people are concerned. Should my tax dollar and yours fund someone in regards to helping them to learn the error of their ways for however long they should live? They can seek their own salvation when they relive what they did in their minds everyday...I shouldn't have to pay someone to find that for them or help them to become a better human being through whatever means they see fit whether it be through psychology or through religion. I don't mean to sound cold or hardend but everyone has the right when they are born in this country to make something of themselves regardless of whatever happened in their childhood/throughout their lives to them. If there are people that have had hardships and have managed to overcome them, there's proof that it is possible. Why should we say, "okay, these people are of different character. They need to be put in jail for life, die there, but we need to help them find themselves before they do." It's just bizarre. I don't know </rant>

[GardenStateGirlie]

You're f-ing kidding! they got flu shots? they are rationing them here! i'm a relatively healthy 20- something so i don't get one.

Nope. Totally not kidding. My dad was able to get one because he does have diabetes among a lot of other health issues. My grandmother got one as well. Other than that, I don't know many people that were able to get them.
Here it is... (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-19-inmates-flu-shots_x.htm)

[amber]

Amber and Deanna-

your Christianity discussion is totally interesting.... i do have a question for Amber though.... are you asking all of these questions about christianity and the Bible because you aren't educated in Christian tradition and history and you are interested in learning about it? or are you challenging the beliefs of people you don't understand? If this comes off as bitchy or anything I'm sorry, I'm not meaning for it to sound like that... I'm just curious....

More specifically i am questioning how a religious person can reconcile belief in what the Bible says about god, and think it's totally true, But not believe or think the other parts are true. if a lot of the bible is wrong, then how can you believe that the rest is right? And what gives people the power to know the difference, if it is ALL in there, the good with the bad. And i think, clearly, many people don't know the difference. My main issue is with the bible.

[The Tower]

Death row or not, I shouldn't have to pay for a criminal of any kind to get a college education and to have things that some people can't even afford that haven't done anything wrong. Were you aware that prisioners received flu shots this year? WTF do they need a flu shot for?

Jeezus. Criminals are still human beings. None of us are perfect. I think the best way to avoid breeding crime is to not sink to their level. Nothing justifies cruelty. Life isn't one big contest to see who gets the best stuff- and there certainly isn't an etched in stone hierarchy as to who is better than whom.

Last time I checked I don't think the penalty for felonies was influenza infection and denial of the ability to possibly improve your life so that you increase the chances of you not commiting crimes.

On second thought, you're right- you can keep your precious tax dollars and the criminals will stay criminals and when they've served their sentence then they can be back on the street to rob you of those tax dollars. Isn't life grand?

[GateandGarden]

Well said Chris. :nod:

Hillary

[amber]

Jeezus. Criminals are still human beings. None of us are perfect. I think the best way to avoid breeding crime is to not sink to their level. Nothing justifies cruelty. Life isn't one big contest to see who gets the best stuff- and there certainly isn't an etched in stone hierarchy as to who is better than whom.

Actually, another good way is to have resources available to these people where the problem starts - when they're young. Education, the hope of a better life, school programs, food, counseling, well, a whole bunch of social programs. What! we can't spend money on that! we have to build more prisons for when they grow up! :rolleyes:

[GateandGarden]

Actually, another good way is to have resources available to these people where the problem starts - when they're young. Education, the hope of a better life, school programs, food, counseling, well, a whole bunch of social programs. What! we can't spend money on that! we have to build more prisons for when they grow up! :rolleyes:I think it's necessary to spend money on both.

Hillary

[The Tower]

Actually, another good way is to have resources available to these people where the problem starts - when they're young. Education, the hope of a better life, school programs, food, counseling, well, a whole bunch of social programs. What! we can't spend money on that! we have to build more prisons for when they grow up! :rolleyes:

Just imagine what the $200,000,000,000 (yes, that's billion) that Congress appropriated for the stupid invasion/occupation of Iraq could have done for the people of the U.S.?

Let's see.... um, howzabout flu vaccinations?!!??!? Nah, it's the fault of the people in prison that we don't have flu shots- they're taking them all up.

Let's say that the average college education costs $50,000. The money flushed down the Iraq quagmire commode could have financed the college educations of FOUR MILLION STUDENTS!! :eek: :eek:

Good thing Dubya's on the job!

[GateandGarden]

I can do nothing but smile and nod. :nod: (It's the thing I inevitably do when I totally agree with something and have nothing else to add to it).

Hillary

[amber]

I can do nothing but smile and nod. :nod: (It's the thing I inevitably do when I totally agree with something and have nothing else to add to it).

Hillary
:laugh: me, too. except i also say "yarp"

[GypsySorcerer]

Actually, another good way is to have resources available to these people where the problem starts - when they're young. Education, the hope of a better life, school programs, food, counseling, well, a whole bunch of social programs. What! we can't spend money on that! we have to build more prisons for when they grow up! :rolleyes:

Abolishing capital punishment would be a good way to start justice reform, just to bring this thread back full circle. :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

Abolishing capital punishment would be a good way to start justice reform, just to bring this thread back full circle. :laugh:
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Jeezus. Criminals are still human beings. None of us are perfect. I think the best way to avoid breeding crime is to not sink to their level. Nothing justifies cruelty. Life isn't one big contest to see who gets the best stuff- and there certainly isn't an etched in stone hierarchy as to who is better than whom.

Last time I checked I don't think the penalty for felonies was influenza infection and denial of the ability to possibly improve your life so that you increase the chances of you not commiting crimes.

On second thought, you're right- you can keep your precious tax dollars and the criminals will stay criminals and when they've served their sentence then they can be back on the street to rob you of those tax dollars. Isn't life grand?

Well, perhaps if you'd read <a href="http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/ledge/showpost.php?p=215343&postcount=193"> my previous post</a> before ripping me a new one, you'd gain some more insight on why I feel the way I do. I never said any of us were perfect but last I checked, no one here ran out and murdered someone (then again if you did, you just might have access to the internet).

Did I even mention treating any criminal harshly? because I don't think I did. And if you think my opinion on why criminals shouldn't be offered flu vaccine is harsh and cruel, you ought to check out how some criminals pay their time in other countries...and we're not talking for murdering anyone either...we're talking some petty crimes. Criminals here have it made. They truly do...especially considering the circumstances that got them there. Health is taken care of, education, food, shelter, clothing...you get to perform some manual labor and work everyday.

I wasn't responding to the initial question at hand on capital punishment, I was responding to all of the amenities criminals seem to be getting (and even Hillary said "I know some of the amenities are going too far (or at least I tend to think so).)" We're not running a hotel here, this is punishment for having done something that you shouldn't be doing...that you are educated to know you shouldn't be doing. I was, however, responding with capital punishment in mind thinking that the aforementioned criminals we were speaking of would not have an option for parole and would not be getting out at anytime. We're talking lifers here.

[wondergirl9847]

Criminals here have it made. They truly do...especially considering the circumstances that got them there. Health is taken care of, education, food, shelter, clothing...you get to perform some manual labor and work everyday.

I don't have health, dental or vision insurance, the government didn't pay for my college years. Sure, they don't have 100% freedom as I do, but they shouldn't, if they committed a crime.

I think murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. should be in jail. People who embezzle money and do white collar crime should NOT. Jails are overcrowded as it is...let Martha out for Pete's sake....make her do community service and do good for the city.

[gldstwmn]

Actually, another good way is to have resources available to these people where the problem starts - when they're young. Education, the hope of a better life, school programs, food, counseling, well, a whole bunch of social programs. What! we can't spend money on that! we have to build more prisons for when they grow up! :rolleyes:

Wow. We agree.

[gldstwmn]

Abolishing capital punishment would be a good way to start justice reform, just to bring this thread back full circle. :laugh:

Wow. I agreee with that too. :cool:

[GardenStateGirlie]

I don't have health, dental or vision insurance, the government didn't pay for my college years. Sure, they don't have 100% freedom as I do, but they shouldn't, if they committed a crime.

I think murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. should be in jail. People who embezzle money and do white collar crime should NOT. Jails are overcrowded as it is...let Martha out for Pete's sake....make her do community service and do good for the city.

Exactly. :nod:

[amber]

Wow. We agree.
We usually do. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

We usually do. :shrug:

Really? I wasn't sure. :lol:

[amber]

Really? I wasn't sure. :lol:
usually about political things..

[dissention]

Speaking for myself- you could start with my previous post containing that lovely scripture from Leviticus.

Or maybe the whole- "If you have not been saved by Jesus you're going to burn in hell for all eternity"- that stuff is pretty vile.

Or howsabout "love the sinner hate the sin" bull****, that's a hot one. "Don't take it personally dear, I don't hate you- I just hate who you are."

Or we could always take the whole deal about how there's no reason to get upset about Leviticus because that's not really part of the bible and you should only pay attention to the parts that I think are relevant because after all this was written by people that we can't even identify, much less corroborate, and things were so much different 4000 years ago and none of that stuff has relevance in today's modern life- but did I mention that the bible says that as a homosexual you're a sinner and you're going to burn in hell and that it says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

Yeah, you're right. Where was my head- how could I have ever thought of christianity as vile??? Stupid me.

:nod: :nod: :nod:

Love ya, darling. :wavey:

[dissention]

(and i was thinking "omg, religion's been going hand in hand with violence and hatred for centuries, and still they need explenations!")

Exactly. Christianity is the source of most major conflicts in history and continues to be used to promote violence, bigotry, and intolerance.

[dissention]

I think a line Kyle had in one epsidode of South Park best describes how I feel about Christianity. He said, "If all the non-christians are wrong then they will burn in hell forever. But if the Christians were wrong and their religion was a load of crap then well nothing happens," So while I agree that the bible and christianity can be very very cruel and God himself the way he is in the bible can be outright mean, BUT I like to think of it as an insurance policy, and just WHAT IF. I mean do you REALIZE how LONG eternity is. If there's even a slim chance the bible is right, I'm going to freaking call myself christian and believe jesus died for my sins and all that stuff.

I mean all ypou atheists are taking a BIG gamble.

Yes, us Atheists will just burn in hell after the Apocalypse comes and decimates everyone who is not a follower of Christianity.

How dare I not believe such preposterous and ridiculous things contained within that religion. Let me repent by renting "The Passion of the Christ." :rolleyes:

[dissention]

of people mentioned in the Bible are not the type of names associated with the Middle East, Which were the stories took place?

Mary (How many Middle Eastern women are named Mary?)
Joseph (Great...Jesus' Dad's name is Joe...Man, That is WAYYYYY Middle Easterner N-O-T!)

I am suprised we didnt have a Jim-Bob or Edna as names in the Bible...Just think if Jesus would have been Billy-Bob? :lol:

Brian j.


And don't forget the fact that if Jesus did exist, he wasn't white, he was black. :wavey:

[estranged4life]

How dare I not believe such preposterous and ridiculous things contained within that religion. Let me repent by renting "The Passion of the Christ." :rolleyes:

Rent South Park's "Passion Of The Jew"...Much recommended over Mel "Goosesteppin'" Gibson's movie!

Brian "Dude...Mel Gibson is looney" j.

[estranged4life]

And don't forget the fact that if Jesus did exist, he wasn't white, he was black. :wavey:

I even think there's a passage in the Bible that even states he wasnt white with blue eyes as these narrow minded tele-evangelists believe :nod:

Jesus should return as a gangster rapper: "I'm a gonna pop a cap in yer ass be-yotch if ya ask me to walk on water again muthaf**ka"

Brian "I dont think so...Homey dont play that" j.

[dissention]

Nope. Totally not kidding. My dad was able to get one because he does have diabetes among a lot of other health issues. My grandmother got one as well. Other than that, I don't know many people that were able to get them.
Here it is... (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-19-inmates-flu-shots_x.htm)

Am I to assume that you don't understand the reasoning behind this, Marissa? :shrug:

Inmates in prisons live in extremely close proximity to each other and one case of influenza or any other illness or disease can spread like lightning. So, we should have prisons full of inmates with diseases and put everyone in them, including staff, at risk of catching something? I think not. And they are humans, too. Just because they're in prison, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't get healthcare.

If you want some good articles, go find the ones about healthy thirty year olds who are "furious" that they can't get a flu shot. Talk about ridiculous.

[dissention]

Well, perhaps if you'd read <a href="http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/ledge/showpost.php?p=215343&postcount=193"> my previous post</a> before ripping me a new one, you'd gain some more insight on why I feel the way I do. I never said any of us were perfect but last I checked, no one here ran out and murdered someone (then again if you did, you just might have access to the internet).

The article you posted did not specify what type of prison. It may not have been a high-security prison with murderers. ;)

Did I even mention treating any criminal harshly? because I don't think I did. And if you think my opinion on why criminals shouldn't be offered flu vaccine is harsh and cruel, you ought to check out how some criminals pay their time in other countries...and we're not talking for murdering anyone either...we're talking some petty crimes. Criminals here have it made. They truly do...especially considering the circumstances that got them there. Health is taken care of, education, food, shelter, clothing...you get to perform some manual labor and work everyday.

I'd like to see you put into prison for a few years. When you get out, let me know if you had it made. And depriving prisoners of necessary flu shots, resulting in a flu epidemic, seems like harsh treatment.

[GypsySorcerer]

Wow. I agreee with that too. :cool:

Wonders never cease, right? :wavey:

[gldstwmn]

Wonders never cease, right? :wavey:

There must be some kind of harmonic convergance going on. :wavey:

[amber]

Am I to assume that you don't understand the reasoning behind this, Marissa? :shrug:

Inmates in prisons live in extremely close proximity to each other and one case of influenza or any other illness or disease can spread like lightning. So, we should have prisons full of inmates with diseases and put everyone in them, including staff, at risk of catching something? I think not. And they are humans, too. Just because they're in prison, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't get healthcare.

If you want some good articles, go find the ones about healthy thirty year olds who are "furious" that they can't get a flu shot. Talk about ridiculous.

I agree, about the flu shot, but it's weird when there are bazillions of Americans who, uh, aren't criminals that can't get healthcare, but prisoners can. It just seems wrong.

[SuzeQuze]

I was listening to Morning Sedition this morning and they had these actors/authors on who interviewed dozens of exonerated death row prisoners for a book and play. They said in all cases it took a special circumstance for the innocent to be exonerated. Either a passionate lawyer taking the appeal pro bono, a documentarian creating a movie, etc. They said the exonerated people on death row were always there because they couldn't afford proper representation, or representation that could rival the prosecution. It was really interesting, here's today's show summary:

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 23
Jessica Blank and Eric Jensen, were out of work actors who happened to attend a conference on the death penalty. It led them to write a groundbreaking play called "The Exonerated," which was just turned into a feature film. Blank and Jensen are now full-time anti-death penalty advocates and have just published "Living Justice," a memoir of their experiences.

[Miss Vicky]

As previously stated in the KFC thread:

I am in favor of the death penalty.

Think me cruel, think me heartless, think me ignorant of the realities of executions, whatever. My mind is made up.

[SuzeQuze]

As previously stated in the KFC thread:

I am in favor of the death penalty.

Think me cruel, think me heartless, think me ignorant of the realities of executions, whatever. My mind is made up.

Hmm, if you had an innocent friend on death row you might think differently. :shrug: I personally believe it is the easy way out for murderers.

[Miss Vicky]

Something just occured to me -

A lot of anti-death penalty people have made the argument that "studies have shown that the death penalty is not a deterrent." I wonder how those studies were conducted? How can they claim accuracy on such a study?

People have stated that those who commit or attempt to commit murder did not take the death penalty into consideration and therefore were not deterred by it. WELL NO SH*T! Obviously if they killed or tried to kill someone they were not deterred by it. On the other hand, how do we have any way of knowing how many people were deterred by it? If they were deterred by it then they did not kill or attempt to kill anybody and therefore did not draw attention to themselves for it. Are we to take a survey of everyone in America and ask "Have you ever killed or considered killing anyone? Did the existence of the death penalty in any way sway your decision?"

I'm not really trying to make an argument here, I'm merely posing the question of how these studies were conducted and how can we assure that they are accurate? :shrug: It just doesn't make sense to me.

[SuzeQuze]

Something just occured to me -

A lot of anti-death penalty people have made the argument that "studies have shown that the death penalty is not a deterrent." I wonder how those studies were conducted? How can they claim accuracy on such a study?

People have stated that those who commit or attempt to commit murder did not take the death penalty into consideration and therefore were not deterred by it. WELL NO SH*T! Obviously if they killed or tried to kill someone they were not deterred by it. On the other hand, how do we have any way of knowing how many people were deterred by it? If they were deterred by it then they did not kill or attempt to kill anybody and therefore did not draw attention to themselves for it. Are we to take a survey of everyone in America and ask "Have you ever killed or considered killing anyone? Did the existence of the death penalty in any way sway your decision?"

I'm not really trying to make an argument here, I'm merely posing the question of how these studies were conducted and how can we assure that they are accurate? :shrug: It just doesn't make sense to me.

If you don't know how "they" could come up with data on this, then why not check out the research for yourself instead of coming up with how it might be done out of thin air?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

[heyjupiter678]

If you don't know how "they" could come up with data on this, then why not check out the research for yourself instead of coming up with how it might be done out of thin air?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167 Wow. Thanks for the link, Suze.

[SuzeQuze]

Thanks for the link. This piece is not capital punishment related in itself, but they discuss a report comparing the US and 25 other industrialised countries and find this information:
The firearm-related homicide rate in the U.S. was nearly 16 times higher than in all of the other countries combined.

Combined that is and it's not at all surprising either. Where guns aren't present, people don't get shot. Well you guys all know that anyway but I still find the crime rate over there scary and so statistics such as those provided by that site fascinate me in a sadistic way.

That is fascinating and something the mainstream media here would never report. The NRA has such a stronghold it sickens me. Blech, thanks for posting this enlightening fact. No guns = no death by guns, what a novel thought. :rolleyes:

[Miss Vicky]

If you don't know how "they" could come up with data on this, then why not check out the research for yourself instead of coming up with how it might be done out of thin air?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

I wasn't "coming up with how it might be done out of thin air." I was asking if anyone knew how it was done. My comment about "surveying everyone" was a bit of sarcasm. I will check out your link when I have more time.

[SuzeQuze]

I wasn't "coming up with how it might be done out of thin air." I was asking if anyone knew how it was done. My comment about "surveying everyone" was a bit of sarcasm. I will check out your link when I have more time.

Sorry, sometimes it is hard to pick up on sarcasm, even for me, without a winkie guy. ;) If you only read one thing from that site then read the testimony of Columbia Law School Professor Jeffrey Fagan, if you have the time. One fact he relayed was that no studies that point out the death penalty as a deterrant compared it with life without parole as a deterrent which the professor thought was a huge oversight bordering on incompetence. This link puts the report right at the top of your browser.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167#STUDIES

[The Tower]

Something just occured to me -

A lot of anti-death penalty people have made the argument that "studies have shown that the death penalty is not a deterrent." I wonder how those studies were conducted? How can they claim accuracy on such a study?

People have stated that those who commit or attempt to commit murder did not take the death penalty into consideration and therefore were not deterred by it. WELL NO SH*T! Obviously if they killed or tried to kill someone they were not deterred by it. On the other hand, how do we have any way of knowing how many people were deterred by it? If they were deterred by it then they did not kill or attempt to kill anybody and therefore did not draw attention to themselves for it. Are we to take a survey of everyone in America and ask "Have you ever killed or considered killing anyone? Did the existence of the death penalty in any way sway your decision?"

I'm not really trying to make an argument here, I'm merely posing the question of how these studies were conducted and how can we assure that they are accurate? :shrug: It just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't think any of this is even relevant to the death penalty discussion. Who the hell cares whether it is or is not a deterrant to crime? The death penalty is just retribution based on conclusions that are not guaranteed to be true.

[Miss Vicky]

Hmm, if you had an innocent friend on death row you might think differently. :shrug: I personally believe it is the easy way out for murderers.

If I had an innocent friend on death row, I might think differently. I don't deny that.

On the other hand, if someone was on death row for the murder of a close friend of family member, you might think differently as well.

However, until either situation arises we'll never know, so it's kind of a moot point.

[The Tower]

If I had an innocent friend on death row, I might think differently. I don't deny that.

On the other hand, if someone was on death row for the murder of a close friend of family member, you might think differently as well.

However, until either situation arises we'll never know, so it's kind of a moot point.
Just proves the point that the death penalty is all about revenge...

[estranged4life]

Just proves the point that the death penalty is all about revenge...

a description of the Bible :rolleyes:

[heyjupiter678]

Just proves the point that the death penalty is all about revenge... Exactly. It's state-sanctioned revenge.

[Miss Vicky]

Just proves the point that the death penalty is all about revenge...

I never said or implied that it was about revenge. The death penalty, like any other sentence, is about punishment - thus the use of the word "penalty." :wavey:

I was merely pointing out that until a situation actually occurs, none of us know for sure just how we would react.

[dissention]

I never said or implied that it was about revenge. The death penalty, like any other sentence, is about punishment - thus the use of the word "penalty." :wavey:

I was merely pointing out that until a situation actually occurs, none of us know for sure just how we would react.

And it's a brutal form of punishment. The government is condemning the very thing that they are doing when they end someone's life. Simple as that. It's barbaric.

[amber]

And it's a brutal form of punishment. The government is condemning the very thing that they are doing when they end someone's life. Simple as that. It's barbaric.
In addition, I think it lends itself to a society feeding on thinking it's okay to kill people, which is not ideally what a society should move towards, if it wants it's people to be enlightened and successful. I mean, violence begets violence, as far as i'm concerned. :shrug:

[Miss Vicky]

And it's a brutal form of punishment. The government is condemning the very thing that they are doing when they end someone's life. Simple as that. It's barbaric.

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I.

I don't think it's brutal or barbaric. You do. We'll agree to disagree.

But I don't think its right to call it an act of revenge and was just stating that opinion.

[SuzeQuze]

I don't think any of this is even relevant to the death penalty discussion. Who the hell cares whether it is or is not a deterrant to crime? The death penalty is just retribution based on conclusions that are not guaranteed to be true.

I agree. However, there's a bunch of junk science out there claiming it is a deterent, which is used as an argument for the death penalty. I'm just shooting holes through that argument because it just doesn't hold up to the facts.

[Hawkeye]

Just proves the point that the death penalty is all about revenge...

What the hell is wrong with revenge?

[SuzeQuze]

What the hell is wrong with revenge?

"Two wrongs don't make a right." ? :shrug: Sounds trite but it's what I believe.

[Hawkeye]

"Two wrongs don't make a right." ? :shrug: Sounds trite but it's what I believe.

I personally hate that saying more then almost any other saying :laugh:

[SuzeQuze]

I personally hate that saying more then almost any other saying :laugh:

Maybe "an eye for an eye" sounds better? ;) :laugh:

[dissention]

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I.

I don't think it's brutal or barbaric. You do. We'll agree to disagree.

But I don't think its right to call it an act of revenge and was just stating that opinion.

If you don't find taking someone's life the ultimate in barbarism, I don't know what to say. :o

[Miss Vicky]

If you don't find taking someone's life the ultimate in barbarism, I don't know what to say. :o

I do believe that killing is okay in certain circumstances and is not necessarily the ultimate in barbarism. Just like I believe that the unborn, at any stage, are just as much alive as I am, yet I maintain a pro-choice stance.

If you disagree with that, good for you, but don't expect me to give a damn. :)

[dissention]

If you disagree with that, good for you, but don't expect me to give a damn. :)

I don't give a flying f*ck if you give a damn, my dear. :wavey:

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't give a flying f*ck if you give a damn, my dear. :wavey:

Ya know - I think Gone with the Wind would have been a much stronger movie had they taken the poetry of your last statement into account for the last scene ;) I'm totally kidding ya btw :xoxo:

[Miss Vicky]

I don't give a flying f*ck if you give a damn, my dear. :wavey:

Good. Then we agree on something. ;) :laugh: :wavey:

[SuzeQuze]

If murder is such an atrocity, how can the correct response to it be to murder someone? It's not logical and by this thinking would actually take away the atrocity in the original crime. I would tend to think that if one were truly appalled by the crime of murder, regardless of personal circumstances, just the act of murder, they wouldn't be inclined to want to murder someone in return.

Very well put. :nod: I could never pull that switch, how could I expect anyone to do that? It's horrible and wrong.

[The Tower]

I never said or implied that it was about revenge.
Of course, you did.

You said that the application of the death penalty would depend on how closely associated you were to either the victim or perpetrator of the crime. That point of view specifically puts the application of the death penalty as retribution.

If it were your kid who was killed by someone, then the death penalty would be okay because the killer needs "to get it". However, if your kid were the killer, then you would be more inclined to have society show mercy.

Revenge plain and simple.

[The Tower]

What the hell is wrong with revenge?
The fact that you have to ask this question prevents anyone from being able to answer you.

:rolleyes:

[Miss Vicky]

Of course, you did.

You said that the application of the death penalty would depend on how closely associated you were to either the victim or perpetrator of the crime. That point of view specifically puts the application of the death penalty as retribution.

If it were your kid who was killed by someone, then the death penalty would be okay because the killer needs "to get it". However, if your kid were the killer, then you would be more inclined to have society show mercy.

Revenge plain and simple.

You've obviously missed the entire point of what I was saying and have used your twisted interpretation of my words to suit your own argument.

So let me say it for at least the third time, and if you don't get it this time, you obviously never will:

I was stating that none of us know for sure how we will react to a given situation until it actually happens and then provided a hypothetical example to show what I meant. Pure and simple.