Tango In The Night Song Survivor!

[77Rumours77]

BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND! Its Fleetwood Mac Song survivor! :woohoo:
This month we will feature One of FM's bigger albums (of course not Rumours :laugh: ) Tango In The Night! For all you people that didn't like this, well tough :lol: ! Everybody who voted on the last game Please vote on this game also! And I hope we get new people too! Here Goes!...

A game of survival! This month will feature "Tango In The Night". A Strong group of songs will play the game of survival! And now with out further ado here are the contestants...

Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Family Man
Welcome To The Room.... Sara
Isn't It Midnight
When I See You Again
You And I, Part II

Something's that have changed....
~Voting will now go on until 9 PM (east).
~Please post the round # in the subject line. (This is to help the confusion)
Enjoy the voting and have a good time.

[77Rumours77]

well my first vote will be for.. Family Man

[BellaDonna98]

My vote will be for "When I See You Again"

baybay... BAYbayee

[GypsySorcerer]

Whassamaddababy?.........When I See You Again is my vote.

[wondergirl9847]

When I See You Again

[ontheEdgeof17]

Mystified.

-Curt

[littlelies7]

I vote for Family Man :nod:

[Cristian]

FAMILY MAN

One of the most amazingly bad pieces of crap ever written by anyone.

[TISL]

My vote: Mystified

[Vianna]

Bye, Bye Welcome to the Room Sara

[SaraRhiannon]

When I See You Again

[GretaRhiannon]

So we vote for songs we want voted off? :shrug: heh I never watched survivor, so umm I vote for Family Man to get voted off.

[darklinensuit]

Fall down & don't get up, FAMILY MAN. :wavey:
(May I vote twice for this one? ;) )

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Hi Jake! :wavey:

I do like "Family Man" quite a bit... but "strategery" is "strategery." ;)

So, I vote to cast off "Family Man."

[tynan88]

See ya around When I See You Aagain

Tynan

[sparky]

When I See You Again and NEVER HAVE TO HEAR YOU AGAIN

[TheMacAttack]

Family Man
"Mother...Fu**er..."

[HomerMcvie]

When I See You Again, I hope this song will no longer be on the list.

[Wild_Heart03]

Good riddance, Family Man.

[face of glass]

Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Family Man
Welcome To The Room.... Sara
Isn't It Midnight
When I See You Again
You And I, Part II

Jacob, since "Silver Springs" was added to the Rumours survivor, I think "You And I Part 1", "Down Endless Street", "Ricky" and "Book Of Miracles" should be added to this one. Of course, no one cares about this right now. ;)

[face of glass]

Screw tactics. "Welcome To The Room... Sara". Grande Esoterica. Suckola.

[whitesoxx]

Family Man!!!

[Bryan]

When I See You Again

I can't BELIEEEVE the amount of hate that Family Man is gettin!! :shocked:

[MikeB]

When I See You Again

[Serrart]

Family Man.... definitely

Romy

[GardenStateGirlie]

I think I may be far more irritated by You and I, Part II than by Family Man. You and I, Part II gets my vote.

[Violet]

FAMILY MAN Yucko song...

Carol

[jwd]

When I See You Again!

[Jason T.]

Family Man

[dissention]

When I See You Again

See ya!

[ryan8472]

When I See You Again

[xdreamsunwindx]

WISYA. Buh bye.

-Kate

[Hawkeye]

When I Se You Again.

[Hawkeye]

Jacob, since "Silver Springs" was added to the Rumours survivor, I think "You And I Part 1", "Down Endless Street", "Ricky" and "Book Of Miracles" should be added to this one. Of course, no one cares about this right now. ;)

That's not even CLOSE to being the same. Silver Springs IS part of Rumours. It wasn't an extra. That BS attitude is why it got voted out and those songs don't belong.

[HomerMcvie]

Jacob, since "Silver Springs" was added to the Rumours survivor, I think "You And I Part 1", "Down Endless Street", "Ricky" and "Book Of Miracles" should be added to this one. Of course, no one cares about this right now. That's not even CLOSE to being the same. Silver Springs IS part of Rumours. It wasn't an extra. That BS attitude is why it got voted out and those songs don't belong.
Bull****. Silver Springs was a B side of a Rumours single, and no more. It was NOT on the album, so I fail to see how it's ANY different from Ricky, etc.
Putting it on the album 27! years later doesn't make it fact. Is it on a 27yo REissue? Yes.
Was it on the "album"?
Nope.

[Hawkeye]

The song is not even an EXTRA now, it's actually ON the new rumours CD's. I don't care what you say but Fleetwood Mac has now fixed the mistake they know they made and it's ON the album :D

[Johnny Stew]

Even the band says, "it's back on the album, where it always should have been." ;)

[HomerMcvie]

Hindsight is 20/20.
Doesn't change history though. Now does it?

[dissention]

Hindsight is 20/20.
Doesn't change history though. Now does it?

No, it doesn't. Silver Springs was not a part of Rumours, it was a song that they included three decades later on a reissue. Trot over to Amazon and you'll even hear complaints from people for the band screwing with a perfect album. Not only does the song feel totally out of place with all the other songs, but it's crappy, too.

[Hawkeye]

No but it changes the present.

[Hawkeye]

Not only does the song feel totally out of place with all the other songs, but it's crappy, too. .
.
I agree that does kind of sound out of place. it would've worked better after GDW, but p[lacing it in the middle shows the band making a statement that it IS part of the album. And how can you call it crappy. How could you like The Dance version and not the studio version. The same intensity is there with much better vocals.

[dissention]

.
.I agree that does kind of sound out of place. it would've worked better after GDW, but p[lacing it in the middle shows the band making a statement that it IS part of the album. And how can you call it crappy. How could you like The Dance version and not the studio version. The same intensity is there with much better vocals.

Becuase I think it's crappy. Her vocals are cloying and much too high for my tastes. The screaming at the end is just that, screaming, and it's annoying. And it's not as intense as I'd prefer. Now, The Dance version has much better vocals and much better performance from the band as a whole. And the ending is brilliant, unlike the tepid studio version.

[HomerMcvie]

No but it changes the present.
Yep. And the public certainly isn't buying 20 million copies of the altered version. :lol:
Facts are facts. Period.

[Lauren]

Ok I'll play

Welcome to the Room Sara

[ShamHy89]

When I See You Again. :rolleyes:

Shamus

[ontheEdgeof17]

Becuase I think it's crappy.

Is there a version of a Stevie song that you like?

[dissention]

Is there a version of a Stevie song that you like?

Plenty. I just previously posted that I love the '97 version. ;)

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that When I See You Again will be the first to leave. WISYA please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
When I See You Agian - 15
Family Man - 11
welcome To The Room Sara - 2
Mystified - 2
You And I Part II - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Family Man
Welcome To The Room.... Sara
Isn't It Midnight
You And I, Part II

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1

[77Rumours77]

Yet again, I am going for Family Man only cuz I hate this song!

[GypsySorcerer]

Sara, you're not welcome in the room. Bye-bye WTTR....S!

[ontheEdgeof17]

Mystified.



(WISYA is a fav of mine.....oh well)



-Curtis

[dissention]

Welcome To the Room...Sara

Buh-bye!

[HomerMcvie]

You're not so Welcome to the Room......Sara.

[GardenStateGirlie]

I? Love Welcome To The Room...Sara. Thusly, my vote goes to Family Man

[77Rumours77]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Whats wrong with you people! JEEZZ Already 2 rounds into the game and I have to stage a protest! :rolleyes:

SAVE WELCOME TO THE ROOM..... SARA

[Violet]

FAMILY MAN Again...

Carol

[SaraRhiannon]

Family Man

[wondergirl9847]

Welcome to the Room Sara

I love every single song left!! ACK!! This is going to be as hard as Rumours Survivor...Tango along with Rumours and Tusk are my fave albums!

[Wild_Heart03]

My vote still goes to Family Man... no thank you!!

[Hawkeye]

Welcome to the Room Sara, anything to save my favorite song from this album, Family Man :p

[Johnny Stew]

Let me take a moment to mourn "When I See You Again"... a song too good for its own good. *sighs*

With that, Iamgonnavote-Iamgonnavote-Iamgonnavote-Iamgonnavote... for "Family Man" (for "Family Man").

[Johnny Stew]

Becuase I think it's crappy. Her vocals are cloying and much too high for my tastes. The screaming at the end is just that, screaming, and it's annoying. And it's not as intense as I'd prefer. Now, The Dance version has much better vocals and much better performance from the band as a whole. And the ending is brilliant, unlike the tepid studio version.

Her vocals at the beginning are pretty (what you're considering cloying) because they're supposed to be... the song starts out gently and reflectively, and then builds to its emotional crescendo.
The ending from the 'Dance' version, where Stevie reprises the first line, is the only thing missing from the album version.

I usually prefer Stevie's latter-day vocals, but this is one case where the original version just can't be topped.

And in my opinion, it belongs on 'Rumours,' and always has.
In fact, it's been included on MY 'Rumours' for over a decade now. I never listen to that album without "Silver Springs."

[secondhandchain]

I vote for Seven Wonders...Sorry but I don't like Stevie's vocals on this one. How could you guys not like Mystified? Some of the most beautiful harmonies ever recorded.

[Tango]

Welcome To The Room . . . Sara.

[face of glass]

"Well of cooourse it was a probleeeemmm". "Welcome To The Room...Sara".

[face of glass]

And in my opinion, it belongs on 'Rumours,' and always has.
In fact, it's been included on MY 'Rumours' for over a decade now. I never listen to that album without "Silver Springs."
And in my opinion "Book Of Miracles", "Down Endless Street", "Ricky" and "You And I Part 2" belong on TITN, and they always have. Just because some woman chose to be involved in the making of album for three weeks doesn't mean that these songs should be ignored in voting.
In fact, kick some of the woman's esoterica out and you'll have the album as I prefer to listen to it.

[GretaRhiannon]

Welcome to the Room...Sara kicks major monkey ass! lol so yeah, I'm still gonna vote off Family Man

[Johnny Stew]

And in my opinion "Book Of Miracles", "Down Endless Street", "Ricky" and "You And I Part 2" belong on TITN, and they always have.

"You And I, Part 2" IS on 'Tango.' ;)
Out of the non-LP b-sides from 'Tango,' the only one that deserves a place on 'Tango,' in my opinion, is "You And I, Part 1."

"Ricky" is lightweight and goes nowhere, "Book Of Miracles" is just an instrumental (I'm a snob when it comes to instrumentals, if they're going to take the place of a song with vocals), and "Down Endless Street"... well, it's the second-best of that batch of non-LP tracks, but it still sounds like an unfinished thought. :shrug:

Stevie's "esoterica" gives 'Tango' its soul... but whatever. ;)

[golden braid]

Family Man

[tynan88]

Off ya go...Family Man...I want this round down to Seven WOnders and Welcome to the Room...Sara

Tynan

PS: Hundredth Post :blob2: Yay for me!

[darklinensuit]

I love WTTR...S.

My vote is for FAMILY MAN.

- Jake

[Bryan]

As much as I love it,im voting Wecome To The Room...Sara

[ryan8472]

Family Man. It has to go sooner or later.

[Patti]

I think I'll go with Family Man.

[face of glass]

"You And I, Part 2" IS on 'Tango.' ;)
Well screw my keyboard and my fingers then. ;)
"Ricky" is lightweight and goes nowhere...
Where would you like the song to go then? I'm guessing here that you're not moved by it emotionally. I personally love the damn thing. I think it is 'beautifully pointless', let's say it like that, unlike "WTTR...S" & "WISYA", which are bit too 'pointy' for me. :p And it is just as difficult to create a glorious question mark into your head as it is to 'bare your soul' as it has been generally expected of Stevie.
..."Book Of Miracles" is just an instrumental...
While I do believe that instruments convey emotion as much as vocals, I still would like the track with a vocal. No doubt would it have been worked upon later, if the track had been chosen to be included on the album.
"Down Endless Street"... well, it's the second-best of that batch of non-LP tracks, but it still sounds like an unfinished thought.
Another one that no doubt Lindsey would have worked upon further, if Stevie hadn't chosen to get involved in the making of TITN.
Stevie's "esoterica" gives 'Tango' its soul... but whatever. ;)
'Soul' and 'Substance', you're using different words for the same thing. ;)

The soul is just as much in there when the middle eight of "Big Love" starts crying out for help. Or when Lindsey delivers his struggling vocal for "Caroline". Or when he lets rip in the title track. Or when Chris sounds vulnerable in "Mystified" and "Little Lies". Or when "Family Man" arrives to the guitar solo. Or when the 'little child' (my image of Lindsey as he delivers that vocal) of "You And I Part Two" sings to us. And this is in the usually accepted way, mind you, through vocals and lead guitar. I haven't mentioned the arrangemental aspects yet because those can do just as much, although not in a way similar to the confessionalists, that's for sure.
Ear-candy pop? For some, maybe. Not for me.

Honestly, I'm interested in why "Silver Springs" is suddenly in a better situation than these other b-sides in these survivor polls. Yes, it is on the DVD-A and Enhanced CD reissues now, but why wasn't it on the album earlier?

(THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY OPINION OF THE MUSICAL CONTENT OF "SILVER SPRINGS".)

The most common explanation that has been given to this is that "it didn't fit in there because of vinyl limitations". I personally think that's not a valid explanation. Fleetwood Mac had a blockbuster behind them and they were most certainly given the access to the best that Warner Brothers had to offer when they went to record Rumours. However, you still hear Mick and co saying that 'vinyl could only hold 23 minutes per side'. The latter is not true, since the '70s had seen several albums with side-lengths approaching 30 minutes, such as certain Todd Rundgren albums or Genesis' Foxtrot and Selling England By The Pound. Of course, at that point the sound quality will certainly suffer, an issue that was obviously important to certain members of Fleetwood Mac. ;)

However, there's been cases where a band has chosen to put more than 23 minutes to a vinyl LP side and the sound quality hasn't still degraded. See Martin Birch's notes from the inner sleeve of Iron Maiden's Live After Death live album:
Cutting Maiden album is often difficult, as they tend to give you fans great value by putting about 25 minutes of music on each side, whereas an album side normally runs between 16-20 minutes. This gives the cutting engineer great problems in getting all the grooves in without losing volume and clarity. However, the best can do it, and we only use the best.
So why wasn't "Silver Springs" put on the album then, if Fleetwood Mac had all the possibilities to do it? Are we speaking of Ken Caillat's and Richard Dashut's incompetence in this regard? I'd like to think not.

So yes, perhaps "Silver Springs" was left off intentionally, not because of time constraints. It's very possible that the 'flow' of the album would have been interrupted by it (and that's why they chose "I Don't Want To Know"), I've seen that as another explanation that the band members have been offering us. However, that must have been their subjective opinion of the track order; we've all seen fans on this board who arrange the track orders of every album to their own preference.

Of course, if people still want to believe that "technical reasons" kept "Silver Springs off Rumours, fine. Then it's my right to believe that "technical reasons" (in addition to the Nicksian reasons ;)) kept "You And I Part 1" (look, I got it right this time), "Down Endless Street", "Book Of Miracles" and "Ricky" off Tango In The Night. If CD had been the dominant format in 1987, the band members might have put these on the album in addition to what's already on it, of course 'finishing' two of them.

That the band members have recently been stating that "'Silver Springs' should have been on the album" doesn't mean much to me. It's all reflective of the success the track had as a single in 1997 (plus the image of Nicks belting out the words to Buckingham, more emphasis on the drama of Rumours); that's why it was added to the DVD-A and the Enhanced CD.
There hasn't been a proper reissue (like those two of Rumours mentioned above) of TITN. If such a thing emerges soon, will we redo this poll because the b-sides might be tacked on to the end of the original album? ;)

Of course, one could now say that "Silver Springs" isn't a bonus track, since it isn't tacked to the end of Rumours, it's in the middle. However, it's in between the last track of side 1 and the first track of side 2. I know of some reissues that have the same approach; Nick Cave's The First Born Is Dead and The Fall's This Nation's Saving Grace have the non-LP single sides on the cd in between the first and second sides of the original vinyl. Of course, the compilers of the Rumours reissue couldn't just figure out where to place the track yet again, so they chose the easiest route.

But whatever. What's done is done. Poll on!

[face of glass]

Bye "Family Man". :nod: Shouldn't this prove my theory of this and "WISYA" being the most obvious self-parodies that Lindsey and Stevie have ever done? Nah. "Delusions Of Grandeur". *joins Johnny in mourning*

[Serrart]

Family Man :wavey:

Romy

[Hippocampus]

Family Man

[ShamHy89]

Welcome to the Room...Sara

Shamus

[Vianna]

I also have to mourn loss of WISYA-I love it....

As to what to vote off:

<B><font size="5">Family Man!</font></B>

[MikeB]

Welcome To The Room...Sara

[xdreamsunwindx]

WTTR...S. It must go. Now. Buh bye.

-Kate

[amber]

AAAhhhh! You started one over the weekend when i couldn't vote!!!! I can't believe the travesty of Wasssamatta Behbay leaving before Family Man *barf* was perpetrated!

Anyway, my vote is for Family Man. What a ball of crap that is....
AMber

[Cristian]

FAMILY MAN

please please please leave.

[sparky]

Welcome To Room, Sara, now get your sorry butt out !

[Johnny Stew]

Where would you like the song ("Ricky") to go then? I'm guessing here that you're not moved by it emotionally. I personally love the damn thing. I think it is 'beautifully pointless', let's say it like that, unlike "WTTR...S" & "WISYA", which are bit too 'pointy' for me. :p And it is just as difficult to create a glorious question mark into your head as it is to 'bare your soul' as it has been generally expected of Stevie.

I don't hate it... it's a cool little song, and I enjoy it immensely. But I don't see it as being strong enough for album inclusion. I mean, for being 4:23 in length, it doesn't have much going on:
"Ricky, can hear you me cry? Didn't even say goodbye. No one looks and no one sees. Ricky, won't you tell me, please (please, please, please)?
Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown.
Oh, how I miss you so. Never gonna let you go. No one looks and no one sees. Ricky, won't you tell me, please (please, please, please)?
Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown.
Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown.
Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown.
Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown."

See, Gaius, what you don't realize is that I don't think EVERY song has to have deep lyrics or some substantive meaning. The ones that do, definitely have more meaning and appeal to me, but that's never stopped me from enjoying the others.
It's just that, compared with Christine & Lindsey's other songs on 'Tango' (and even elsewhere), "Ricky" and "Down Endless Street" seem anemic.


Honestly, I'm interested in why "Silver Springs" is suddenly in a better situation than these other b-sides in these survivor polls. Yes, it is on the DVD-A and Enhanced CD reissues now, but why wasn't it on the album earlier?

Of course, if people still want to believe that "technical reasons" kept "Silver Springs off Rumours, fine. Then it's my right to believe that "technical reasons" (in addition to the Nicksian reasons ;)) kept "You And I Part 1" (look, I got it right this time), "Down Endless Street", "Book Of Miracles" and "Ricky" off Tango In The Night. If CD had been the dominant format in 1987, the band members might have put these on the album in addition to what's already on it, of course 'finishing' two of them.

I think one of the biggest factors pointing to how the band felt about "Silver Springs," is that they actually took the song to completion. And worked damn hard on it, from all appearances.
They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I don't think they would have spent so much time on a song that they didn't feel strongly about including.

Obviously, they made the final decision NOT to include it... whether it be for time constraints (Mick and Lindsey have both said that the band was NOT willing to compromise the sound quality, by increasing the running time), or because they felt they needed another uptempo tune ("I Don't Want To Know") to balance things, or a combination of both.

But the band feels that "Silver Springs" should have "always been a part of 'Rumours'," and I've never heard them say that about "Ricky" or "Down Endless Street" or "Cool Water."

[GODDESS6]

i have 2 say... family man~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill :blob1:

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that Family Man will be the first to leave. Family Man please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
Family Man - 19
Welcome To The Room... Sara - 11
Seven Wonders - 1
Mystified - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Welcome To The Room.... Sara
Isn't It Midnight
You And I, Part II

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2

[77Rumours77]

You and 1 Part II, you may go now :o

[SaraRhiannon]

Welcome to the Room Sara :wavey:

[jwd]

Damn, I missed round 2. Didn't seem to matter though, I would have voted off Family Man too. Now I believe it's time to unwelcome Sara from the room. It's not your home, and it's not, whatever that word she sings...Tara? :lol:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Going with the crowd.....WTTR, S :( I will miss you.



-Curtis

[secondhandchain]

[QUOTE=Johnny Stew]I don't hate it... it's a cool little song, and I enjoy it immensely. But I don't see it as being strong enough for album inclusion. I mean, for being 4:23 in length, it doesn't have much going on:


I love Ricky. It's one of those cool Lindsey produced songs. I love it.

[Cristian]

That the band members have recently been stating that "'Silver Springs' should have been on the album" doesn't mean much to me. It's all reflective of the success the track had as a single in 1997 (plus the image of Nicks belting out the words to Buckingham, more emphasis on the drama of Rumours); that's why it was added to the DVD-A and the Enhanced CD.

In my hard work of trying to get "Family Man" out of this survivor thing I hadn't read your post carefully, and I must say that I REALLY agree with you. I don't consider "Silver Springs" to be overrated (mind you, it's one of my favorite Fleetwood Mac songs), but like you, I think it just wasn't on Rumours. The fact that the band has been telling us almost all the time that it actually "should have been" probably reflects the quality of the song, the value of it in time, the way it touched so many people... If it would've been in Rumours it could've been one of its greatest songs. But it just wasn't. And its insertion in these reissue things should just be seen as a 'bonus track' addition even if it's in the middle of the CD. JMHO of course.


Oh yes, this round I will vote for You And I, Part II

[Johnny Stew]

Folks are bound and determined to vote off all of Stevie's songs first. Not just "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but votes against "Seven Wonders," too???

Sad state of affairs. :distress:

My vote: "You And I, Part 2"
I shall always love you for one of the best Mac lyrics: "keep your heart open and your eyes shut tight... what will be, will be"... but that's about all you have going for you. So, bye-bye.

[Johnny Stew]

I don't consider "Silver Springs" to be overrated (mind you, it's one of my favorite Fleetwood Mac songs), but like you, I think it just wasn't on Rumours. The fact that the band has been telling us almost all the time that it actually "should have been" probably reflects the quality of the song, the value of it in time, the way it touched so many people... If it would've been in Rumours it could've been one of its greatest songs. But it just wasn't. And its insertion in these reissue things should just be seen as a 'bonus track' addition even if it's in the middle of the CD. JMHO of course.

I get that it's a "purist" thing. When the album was released in 1977, that song wasn't included in the track-listing, so a lot of people view it as an interloper.
It makes sense (although I don't see it as the major problem other fans seem to see it as).

What I'd like to know, though, is how well "Silver Springs" would do in a Survivor-type setting, if it HAD been included on 'Rumours' all along. And I have a feeling it might end up being the number one song, or the runner-up (behind "The Chain").

[Vianna]

<b><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="5">Welcome to the Room Sara</font></b>

[TISL]

my vote: Mystified

[GardenStateGirlie]

You and I, Part II. Not your best song, Linds.

[Hawkeye]

You and I Part 2 for sure. Danm I'm mourning the great family man.

[wondergirl9847]

WTTR....S. Like it, but not over all the others.

[golden braid]

You and I Part 2

[GretaRhiannon]

My vote is for Big Love

[Johnny Stew]

My vote is for Big Love

:eek: :distress: *faints*

[darklinensuit]

I'm voting for You And I Part II. I prefer it to some of the others, but I'm thinking strategy.

- Jake

[HomerMcvie]

get the hell out of the room..........sara

[Hippocampus]

You And I Part II

[Serrart]

You and I, Part II

Romy

[Bryan]

I'm so tired of the sheep who are ALL voting Y & I 2,they always do the same when it comes to the BETTER songs. :mad: Forget strategy..just vote for what YOU don't want in the round. :p
I'm going with Welcome To The Room...Sara.

[GODDESS6]

I'm so tired of the sheep who are ALL voting Y & I 2,they always do the same when it comes to the BETTER songs. :mad: Forget strategy..just vote for what YOU don't want in the round. :p
I'm going with Welcome To The Room...Sara.


sorry :sorry: , i like welcome to the room, sara, so i have 2 vote:

you & I part II, sorry~

brightest stevie blessings~
:thumbsup:

[tynan88]

You & I Part II

Right now it is a strategic move to save WTTR...S, can y'all honestly not say to me it is not one of the catchiets songs on Tango and you always sing along to it, and it sparks emotion...I dont know about you but it does for me, and to me that is the definition of a good song...so guys please join me and...

SAVE WELCOME TO THE ROOM...SARA

[ryan8472]

You And I, pt2

[dissention]

Folks are bound and determined to vote off all of Stevie's songs first. Not just "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but votes against "Seven Wonders," too???

Sad state of affairs. :distress:


It only got one vote, Le Stew. :laugh:

[dissention]

Welcome To The Tomb...Sara

[Patti]

Welcome to the Room....Sara. Get outta here.

[dissention]

I think one of the biggest factors pointing to how the band felt about "Silver Springs," is that they actually took the song to completion. And worked damn hard on it, from all appearances.
They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I don't think they would have spent so much time on a song that they didn't feel strongly about including.

Obviously, they made the final decision NOT to include it... whether it be for time constraints (Mick and Lindsey have both said that the band was NOT willing to compromise the sound quality, by increasing the running time), or because they felt they needed another uptempo tune ("I Don't Want To Know") to balance things, or a combination of both.

But the band feels that "Silver Springs" should have "always been a part of 'Rumours'," and I've never heard them say that about "Ricky" or "Down Endless Street" or "Cool Water."

Not necessarily. They've always brought lots of songs to completion that they knew wouldn't be on the record. They worked on lots of SYW songs even after they knew that it wouldn't be a double record. Stevie has always done lots of stuff for her solo records that are pretty darned complete that didn't end up on any albums. I think that in the case of Silver Springs, Stevie was the one who expected it to be on the record. We don't know how it all went down, but for all we know, Lindsey threatened to leave if it made the record. We just don't know.

Maybe Ricky and Down Endless Street were recorded and produced in full, but when put next to the other material they had recorded, they chose other stuff to include.

Silver Springs has not and never will be a part of the Rumours record that 25 million people bought in the past 25 years. They did not buy and fall in love with a record that had Silver Springs sandwiched in the middle of it and surely you can understand why people would be less than enthused that the band is now trying to rewrite their most classic of albums. It doesn't belong, throw it onto the second disc.

[Bryan]

sorry :sorry: , i like welcome to the room, sara, so i have 2 vote:

you & I part II, sorry~



lol! okay,I understand. ''Welcome's'' gonna go soon anyways :D

[MikeB]

WTTR..Sara

[Tango]

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Welcome To The Room.... Sara
Isn't It Midnight
You And I, Part II

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2

My vote: Welcome To The Room . . . Sara. However, your room is being relocated off this island.

[GypsySorcerer]

Welcome to the Room, Sara.

[darklinensuit]

It only got one vote, Le Stew. :laugh:

That's still two too many IMO. :wavey:

- Jake

[dissention]

That's still two too many IMO. :wavey:

- Jake

:laugh:

Stack it up next to the other songs from Linds and Chris and SW is crap. ;) Good vocal, blah production, blah lyrics.

[ShamHy89]

Welcome to the Room...Sara

Shamus

[darklinensuit]

:laugh:

Stack it up next to the other songs from Linds and Chris and SW is crap. ;) Good vocal, blah production, blah lyrics.

Best song on the album, followed by Tango. Far better than Family Man or Everywhere (speaking of bad production and lyrics).

- Jake

[dissention]

Best song on the album, followed by Tango. Far better than Family Man or Everywhere (speaking of bad production and lyrics).

- Jake

Everywhere sucks, it's just awful. I like Family Man, but Tango In the Night is the best song on the album. It's fantastic, one of my all-time favorites. Seven Wonders is mediocre at best.

[darklinensuit]

Everywhere sucks, it's just awful. I like Family Man, but Tango In the Night is the best song on the album. It's fantastic, one of my all-time favorites. Seven Wonders is mediocre at best.

Seven Wonders is a great song and should have been in the set this time, IMO. One of Stevie's true feel-good songs that still retains a bit of an eerie sound. And again, I don't see how one can say that the lyrics and production are inferior to Family Man's.

- Jake

[dissention]

Seven Wonders is a great song and should have been in the set this time, IMO. One of Stevie's true feel-good songs that still retains a bit of an eerie sound. And again, I don't see how one can say that the lyrics and production are inferior to Family Man's.

- Jake

Sorry, Family Man is leaps and bounds above Seven Wonders musically. The lyrics on both songs suck, so...

[darklinensuit]

Sorry, Family Man is leaps and bounds above Seven Wonders musically. The lyrics on both songs suck, so...

Again, are we talking production, rhythm, vocals, harmonies, "catchiness"? On all counts Seven Wonders is the winner by a Landslide. :nod:

- Jake

[dissention]

Again, are we talking production, rhythm, vocals, harmonies, "catchiness"? On all counts Seven Wonders is the winner by a Landslide. :nod:

- Jake

There's no way Seven Wonders is catchier than Family Man. Family Man sucks in many arenas, but it can't be accused of not being catchy. Family Man has better vocals, too, with the exception of the VSO maneuvering. Stevie's voice is too ragged on Seven Wonders. And the production in Seven Wonders is plastic, it hinders the song, much like Running Through the Garden (even though I do love RTTG).

[darklinensuit]

There's no way Seven Wonders is catchier than Family Man. Family Man sucks in many arenas, but it can't be accused of not being catchy. Family Man has better vocals, too, with the exception of the VSO maneuvering. Stevie's voice is too ragged on Seven Wonders. And the production in Seven Wonders is plastic, it hinders the song, much like Running Through the Garden (even though I do love RTTG).

Comparing vocals, Family Man barely qualifies as singing. It's breathing. And Stevie's voice on SW sounds smoother than today.
Yes, I can and do accuse FM of not being catchy. You need a natural tic to sing Family Man and enjoy it. The pacing is abrupt and unpleasant. Seven Wonders flows beautifully.
The production on FM is overboard. Where the song belongs.

- Jake

[dissention]

Comparing vocals, Family Man barely qualifies as singing. It's breathing. And Stevie's voice on SW sounds smoother than today.
Yes, I can and do accuse FM of not being catchy. You need a natural tic to sing Family Man and enjoy it. The pacing is abrupt and unpleasant. Seven Wonders flows beautifully.
The production on FM is overboard. Where the song belongs.

- Jake

We'll just disagree than because I think Lindsey sings Family Man beautifully and not haggardly like Stevie on Seven Wonders. ;)

[darklinensuit]

We'll just disagree than because I think Lindsey sings Family Man beautifully and not haggardly like Stevie on Seven Wonders. ;)

And I think he sounds like Max Headroom on helium, while Stevie's vocal is flawless. :wavey:

- Jake

[dissention]

And I think he sounds like Max Headroom on helium, while Stevie's vocal is flawless. :wavey:

- Jake

Funny, I thought Stevie sounded like a goat on helium. ;) :laugh:

[darklinensuit]

Funny, I thought Stevie sounded like a goat on helium. ;) :laugh:

No, but I suppose a goat would sound better than Family Man. :wavey:

- Jake

[Hawkeye]

It looks again like you guys need a third party to decide, Family Man is better :p Unfortunutly it's cklear by thus thread the majority DOESN'T agree :laugh: And Dissention's right Lindsey and Christine but mainly Lindsey OWN Tango in the Night.

[darklinensuit]

It looks again like you guys need a third party to decide, Family Man is better :p Unfortunutly it's cklear by thus thread the majority DOESN'T agree :laugh: And Dissention's right Lindsey and Christine but mainly Lindsey OWN Tango in the Night.

Fine, let me know when the third party gets here. ;) :wavey:

But I'll give you that despite SW being the best song, L & C do "OWN" the Tango album. How could they not when Stevie has only three songs? :shrug:

- Jake

[dissention]

It looks again like you guys need a third party to decide, Family Man is better :p Unfortunutly it's cklear by thus thread the majority DOESN'T agree :laugh: And Dissention's right Lindsey and Christine but mainly Lindsey OWN Tango in the Night.

:nod:

Personally, I wish that they had stuck with the Buckingham McVie vibe and not included Stevie. Her songs just disrupt the whole album, IMO.

[dissention]

But I'll give you that despite SW being the best song, L & C do "OWN" the Tango album. How could they not when Stevie has only three songs? :shrug:

- Jake

She could've had more material (and hopefully better material) if she actually participated in the album. ;)

[darklinensuit]

She could've had more material (and hopefully better material) if she actually participated in the album. ;)

I can never ever ever deal with your exaggerations. :rolleyes: :)

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

She could've had more material (and hopefully better material) if she actually participated in the album. ;)

Oh Lord, here we go with that old accusation again.
Stevie should not have honored her solo commitments and Stevie should not have gone to Betty Ford to detox from her cocaine addiction, because it limited her time in the studio and she let Fleetwood Mac down!

And then on the other side of the coin, Stevie should not have honored her committment to Fleetwood Mac either, and shouldn't have hampered Lindsey & Christine so badly.

How could she?! :p

Yet another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation because you can never please everyone.

When all is said and done, the fact that Stevie only has three songs on the album isn't that big of a deal anyway. She had three on 'Fleetwood Mac' (though only two lead vocals), three on 'Rumours,' five on 'Tusk' (because it was a double album), and three on 'Mirage.'
She wouldn't have had any additional songs on 'Tango,' whether she had been there every single day or not.

And, in my esteemed opinion (;)), her material on 'Tango' is just fine, thank you. Thematically, "Welcome To The Room... Sara" is definitely out of place, and would have fit a solo album better. But "Seven Wonders" and "When I See You Again" are right up there with the best songs on the album (and are certainly better than "Mystified," "Family Man" and "You And I, Part 2").

[dissention]

I can never ever ever deal with your exaggerations. :rolleyes: :)

- Jake

It's not an exaggeration. Other band members have said that a lot of tapes were sent in (I don't know the exact wording) and they had to come up with her parts out of thin air. She wasn't contractually obligated to go to Australia and perform with Dylan and Petty. Then when she came back to the studio, she bitched about not being on the album (if you believe Mick's book, which most around here seem to do). She wasn't there and it's obvious when one listens to it. :)

[dissention]

She wouldn't have had any additional songs on 'Tango,' whether she had been there every single day or not.

And how do we know that? :confused:

[darklinensuit]

It's not an exaggeration. Other band members have said that a lot of tapes were sent in (I don't know the exact wording) and they had to come up with her parts out of thin air. She wasn't contractually obligated to go to Australia and perform with Dylan and Petty. Then when she came back to the studio, she bitched about not being on the album (if you believe Mick's book, which most around here seem to do). She wasn't there and it's obvious when one listens to it. :)

Gee, sit twiddling thumbs in the studio around exes while her grammar is corrected and tensions are high, or head to Australia with two buddies. Tough choice. :shocked:
To say that she did not actually participate on the album IS an exaggeration. Maybe you might argue she did not participate fully, but that is a different argument.

- Jake

[CarneVaca]

I don't see how one can say that the lyrics and production are inferior to Family Man's.

You think the production Seven Wonders is better than Family Man? The Spanish guitar alone on the latter blows the former away. No comparison.

[darklinensuit]

You think the production Seven Wonders is better than Family Man? The Spanish guitar alone on the latter blows the former away. No comparison.

Yes, I do. Like much of the album, Family Man is overproduced, IMO.

- Jake

[dissention]

Gee, sit twiddling thumbs in the studio around exes while her grammar is corrected and tensions are high, or head to Australia with two buddies. Tough choice. :shocked:

Yeah, participate in a new album with the band that made me a rich rock star or go out to another country and perform? Tough choice. Does Miss Nicks still want to be paid for all the hard work she endured making that album?

[darklinensuit]

Yeah, participate in a new album with the band that made me a rich rock star or go out to another country and perform? Tough choice. Does Miss Nicks still want to be paid for all the hard work she endured making that album?

Like Johnny said, you damn her either way. If she works on the album it should be just Christine & Lindsey. If she leaves she's an ingrate.
And does Stevie want to be paid for that album? Well, for all the complaints about Stevie not being there, the rest of the band sure didn't mind using her name to help sell that album!

- Jake

[GardenStateGirlie]

We'll just disagree than because I think Lindsey sings Family Man beautifully and not haggardly like Stevie on Seven Wonders. ;)

This is a joke, right?

Wow.

Woah.

:hits you over the head with a frying pan: (out of love, of course :laugh: )

[GardenStateGirlie]

You think the production Seven Wonders is better than Family Man? The Spanish guitar alone on the latter blows the former away. No comparison.

The Spanish guitar is the only good thing about that song which is why I like the extended version better than the album version. However, I think lyrically, the song blows. It is not his best, IMO.

[Johnny Stew]

And how do we know that? :confused:

I just gave you examples with precedent, wise-guy. :p

At most she would have had four (as she did on 'Behind The Mask'), but it's hard for me to imagine that FM would have released a studio album of 13 tracks back in 1987, when 10 or 11 tracks on a studio album was still pretty much the norm.
And they sure wouldn't have bumped one of Christine or Lindsey's songs for a fourth Stevie song (which would have given them each the same amount of songs... something which NEVER happened until 'The Dance' ten years later).
Anyway, it's all just educated conjecture, no?

You have little-to-no appreciation for a single thing Stevie did on 'Tango,' so you're not going to see it any other way. And I think her stuff on 'Tango' is pretty dang terrific, so I'm not going to see it any other way.

Not to sound childish, but in the end I win anyway, because Stevie IS on the album, and I love her songs on it. :D :laugh: ;)

[dissention]

Like Johnny said, you damn her either way. If she works on the album it should be just Christine & Lindsey. If she leaves she's an ingrate.
And does Stevie want to be paid for that album? Well, for all the complaints about Stevie not being there, the rest of the band sure didn't mind using her name to help sell that album!

- Jake

Why would they, she had three crappy songs on there, after all. More power to them. ;) But it wasn't the Power of the Nicks that made the album so popular, was it? If I recall correctly, it was the other two with the big hit singles and those singles that are now remembered so many years down the road, not mediocre stuff like Seven Wonders or bad stuff like WISYA. Surely her presence helped the album, but I doubt it helped as much as Le Stew would have anyone believe. :laugh:

And, for the record, my comments were that if she had been there, she may have contributed much better material and that would have been fine. But she was barely there and the material was less than stellar, so I came to the conclusion that the album would've been better suited without her. Don't twist my words. ;)

[darklinensuit]

The Spanish guitar is the only good thing about that song which is why I like the extended version better than the album version. However, I think lyrically, the song blows. It is not his best, IMO.

It's maybe his worst, IMO.
I'm a fan of Lindsey's full singing voice & cannot understand why he insists on breathing his way through so many of his songs. I love his vocals on Buckingham Nicks, the White Album, and Rumours.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Why would they, she had three crappy songs on there, after all. More power to them. ;) But it wasn't the Power of the Nicks that made the album so popular, was it? If I recall correctly, it was the other two with the big hit singles and those singles that are now remembered so many years down the road, not mediocre stuff like Seven Wonders or bad stuff like WISYA. Surely her presence helped the album, but I doubt it helped as much as Le Stew would have anyone believe. :laugh:

And, for the record, my comments were that if she had been there, she may have contributed much better material and that would have been fine. But she was barely there and the material was less than stellar, so I came to the conclusion that the album would've been better suited without her. Don't twist my words. ;)

Your comments were that you hadn't exaggerated when you had. :)

Stevie definitely helped sell that album. She was the one who toured behind it. :) And as I recall, the concert reviews loved her.

- Jake

[dissention]

Stevie definitely helped sell that album. She was the one who toured behind it. :) And as I recall, the concert reviews loved her.

- Jake

No, the singles sold the album to the public, not her drug-induced stupor onstage. We must've read different reviews. But I will admit that the reviews were better for he ront hat tour than BTM. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

She wasn't contractually obligated to go to Australia and perform with Dylan and Petty.

She was in Australia for three days.
Count them with me...
One.
Two.
Three.

Wow, how dare she? :p

In bringing up the comments in Mick's book, you've failed to also mention that Stevie apologized when she was reminded that if she had been there more, she would have been on the album more.
And in a Creem magazine article, she reiterated that sentiment.

You're always rather quick with pointing out the negatives regarding Stevie, but aren't as forthcoming with the counterpoints. :p

[dissention]

I just gave you examples with precedent, wise-guy. :p

Times change, Le Stew. ;)

Anyway, it's all just educated conjecture, no?

Yup, or rather educated assumptions. :)

You have little-to-no appreciation for a single thing Stevie did on 'Tango,' so you're not going to see it any other way. And I think her stuff on 'Tango' is pretty dang terrific, so I'm not going to see it any other way.

I appreciate that there were no more turkeys like WISYA. :laugh: Seriously, I love some of her background vocals and parts of Seven Wonders, but no, she doesn't blow the sunshine up my behind on that album.

Not to sound childish, but in the end I win anyway, because Stevie IS on the album, and I love her songs on it. :D :laugh: ;)

Ha. :lol:

[dissention]

She was in Australia for three days.
Count them with me...
One.
Two.
Three.

Wow, how dare she? :p

And just think, in those three days she could have layed down a vocal for Book of Miracles. ;) And with the plane rides back and forth, it's more like four and a half days, but who's counting? :laugh:

In bringing up the comments in Mick's book, you've failed to also mention that Stevie apologized when she was reminded that if she had been there more, she would have been on the album more.
And in a Creem magazine article, she reiterated that sentiment.

So, what's the argument? Even Stevie said she was barely involved. Next.

You're always rather quick with pointing out the negatives regarding Stevie, but aren't as forthcoming with the counterpoints. :p

Because the counterpoints being presented don't hold up.

[GardenStateGirlie]

And just think, in those three days she could have layed down a vocal for Book of Miracles. ;) And with the plane rides back and forth, it's more like four and a half days, but who's counting? :laugh:



Fast forward to 2002 and SYW. Because Lindsey acted like an ass, she lost a day mixing "Monica," but who's counting? There. They're even. Da da.

[dissention]

Fast forward to 2002 and SYW. Because Lindsey acted like an ass, she lost a day mixing "Monica," but who's counting? There. They're even. Da da.

:laugh:

FOUL. :laugh: She lost a day of mixing because they wanted him to sign contracts for Alge to mix his songs, when in all actuality, he just wanted to try one or two songs with the guy. ;)

[darklinensuit]

No, the singles sold the album to the public, not her drug-induced stupor onstage. We must've read different reviews. But I will admit that the reviews were better for he ront hat tour than BTM. ;)

According to the same Mick book you just quoted, touring sells an album.

- Jake

[dissention]

According to the same Mick book you just quoted, touring sells an album.

- Jake

Yeah, back in the seventies, my friend.

[Johnny Stew]

And just think, in those three days she could have layed down a vocal for Book of Miracles. ;)

She did lay down vocals for "Book Of Miracles"... the outtake is called "Juliet," and you hate how she sounds on it. :p

So, what's the argument? Even Stevie said she was barely involved. Next.

The "argument" is that you completely failed to note Stevie's own comments and apology... choosing only to point out that she had a temper tantrum about it.

Because the counterpoints being presented don't hold up.

I know yours don't, but it's ok, buddy, we love ya anyway. :p

[darklinensuit]

Yeah, back in the seventies, my friend.

That's your take, not Mick's. He was not referring to the seventies. He was referring specifically to the eighties.

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Yeah, back in the seventies, my friend.

And yet, 'Tango' went to #1 in England for a second time, on the strength of their tour there. In 1987. :)

[GardenStateGirlie]

:laugh:

FOUL. :laugh: She lost a day of mixing because they wanted him to sign contracts for Alge to mix his songs, when in all actuality, he just wanted to try one or two songs with the guy. ;)

"Tony? HE-LLO. I've got people over here pointing fingers..."

"UGH! LINDSEY! WE ARE NOT!" :slaps thighs:

Whatever. She lost the day. I win. Says me. ;)

[GardenStateGirlie]

And yet, 'Tango' went to #1 in England for a second time, on the strength of their tour there. In 1987. :)

Hmm...funny how that happens eh? ;)

[dissention]

She did lay down vocals for "Book Of Miracles"... the outtake is called "Juliet," and you hate how she sounds on it. :p

The music is different, though, which leads me to believe that it was worke don further and that the one you're referring to was a rawer demo-y version. ;) But I could be wrong because I haven't listened to BOM in a loooooooooong time. And yes, that vocal is the worst thing I've ever heard. Gimme WISYA any day! :laugh:

The "argument" is that you completely failed to note Stevie's own comments and apology... choosing only to point out that she had a temper tantrum about it.

The words "temper" and "tantrum" never came out of my keyboard. I said she bitched about it, which she did. She may have apologized, but it doesn't negate the fact that she was barely there.

I know yours don't, but it's ok, buddy, we love ya anyway. :p

You need a new keyboard, Le Stew. :laugh:

[dissention]

"Tony? HE-LLO. I've got people over here pointing fingers..."

"UGH! LINDSEY! WE ARE NOT!" :slaps thighs:

Whatever. She lost the day. I win. Says me. ;)

Me says you're wrong. ;) Watch it again, my darling. :xoxo:

[dissention]

That's your take, not Mick's. He was not referring to the seventies. He was referring specifically to the eighties.

- Jake

And I think he's wrong in the context that he was using. The way he said it, it was as if he honestly thought that the album wouldn't sell if they didn't tour. That's just bull, IMO.

The band still likes to use the "we're touring to promote our record" line with the current tour, and we all know that their tour really did nothing for the SYW album sales.

[Johnny Stew]

The music is different, though, which leads me to believe that it was worke don further and that the one you're referring to was a rawer demo-y version. ;) But I could be wrong because I haven't listened to BOM in a loooooooooong time. And yes, that vocal is the worst thing I've ever heard. Gimme WISYA any day! :laugh:

Someone... was it Joe (downonrodeo)?... once mixed that outtake/demo of "Juliet" and "Book Of Miracles" together. It was obvious that the instrumentation on the "Book Of Miracles" track was pretty much built-up based on that bare-bones "Juliet."
Granted, I'm most sure that Stevie would have re-recorded her vocal for a completed version. But still, if you want to hear "Book Of Miracles" with vocals, that option exists.


The words "temper" and "tantrum" never came out of my keyboard. I said she bitched about it, which she did. She may have apologized, but it doesn't negate the fact that she was barely there.

You said she bitched about it, I called that a temper tantrum. That one is simply a matter of semantics.

No matter how you slice it though, you failed to mention that she apologized for that very same bitching incident that you were so quick to bring up.


You need a new keyboard, Le Stew. :laugh:

My keyboard is in perfect condition. Yours, however, has obviously taken to typing nonsense. ;) :p

[GypsySorcerer]

But I'll give you that despite SW being the best song, L & C do "OWN" the Tango album. How could they not when Stevie has only three songs? :shrug:

- Jake

Stevie only had three songs on Mirage and Rumours, too. ;)

[amber]

Oh Lord, here we go with that old accusation again.
Stevie should not have honored her solo commitments and Stevie should not have gone to Betty Ford to detox from her cocaine addiction, because it limited her time in the studio and she let Fleetwood Mac down!

And then on the other side of the coin, Stevie should not have honored her committment to Fleetwood Mac either, and shouldn't have hampered Lindsey & Christine so badly.

How could she?! :p

Yet another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation because you can never please everyone.

When all is said and done, the fact that Stevie only has three songs on the album isn't that big of a deal anyway. She had three on 'Fleetwood Mac' (though only two lead vocals), three on 'Rumours,' five on 'Tusk' (because it was a double album), and three on 'Mirage.'
She wouldn't have had any additional songs on 'Tango,' whether she had been there every single day or not.

And, in my esteemed opinion (;)), her material on 'Tango' is just fine, thank you. Thematically, "Welcome To The Room... Sara" is definitely out of place, and would have fit a solo album better. But "Seven Wonders" and "When I See You Again" are right up there with the best songs on the album (and are certainly better than "Mystified," "Family Man" and "You And I, Part 2").
Amen, brother! :xoxo:
Amber

[dissention]

And yet, 'Tango' went to #1 in England for a second time, on the strength of their tour there. In 1987. :)

Don't forget that the album had also been on the UK charts for a year (save two weeks) before they even played their first UK date. ;)

And, just to stir the pot, Family Man charted better as single than Seven Wonders in the UK. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Someone... was it Joe (downonrodeo)?... once mixed that outtake/demo of "Juliet" and "Book Of Miracles" together. It was obvious that the instrumentation on the "Book Of Miracles" track was pretty much built-up based on that bare-bones "Juliet."
Granted, I'm most sure that Stevie would have re-recorded her vocal for a completed version. But still, if you want to hear "Book Of Miracles" with vocals, that option exists.

Before anyone argues to the contrary, I'm going to qualify my statement.

I was not implying that LB took the "Juliet" demo/outtake, and built instrumentation and overdubs over top of it literally.
I'm only saying that it's obvious that the outtake was being worked production-wise to fit the album's style and sound, and that, in its essence, "Book Of Miracles" is "Juliet" without vocals.

[dissention]

You said she bitched about it, I called that a temper tantrum. That one is simply a matter of semantics.

Yes, it is. But bitching does not equal a temper tantrum. ;)

No matter how you slice it though, you failed to mention that she apologized for that very same bitching incident that you were so quick to bring up.

Again, her apology still does not negate the fact that she was barely there.

[GypsySorcerer]

Your comments were that you hadn't exaggerated when you had. :)

Stevie definitely helped sell that album. She was the one who toured behind it. :) And as I recall, the concert reviews loved her.

- Jake


As hard as it is, I gotta agree with Dissention here. :laugh: I think Stevie had a small part in the success of that album, but Tango is Lindsey and Christine's baby. Seven Wonders is pretty good, but a) she didn't write it b) her vocals are pretty weak and c) it charted lower than Big Love, Little Lies, and Everywhere. And that was her best song on the album. I love Stevie, but the Tango period was just not her best. :)

[dissention]

As hard as it is, I gotta agree with Dissention here. :laugh: I think Stevie had a small part in the success of that album, but Tango is Lindsey and Christine's baby. Seven Wonders is pretty good, but a) she didn't write it c) her vocals are pretty weak and c) it charted lower than Big Love, Little Lies, and Everywhere. And that was her best song on the album. I love Stevie, but the Tango period was just not her best. :)

You've crossed over...to the dark side! :eek:

As cold as it is, it's really quite welcoming, wouldn't you say? :laugh: :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

Don't forget that the album had also been on the UK charts for a year (save two weeks) before they even played their first UK date. ;)

And, just to stir the pot, Family Man charted better as single than Seven Wonders in the UK. :laugh:

I didn't forget anything... I noted that it was the second time the album went to #1.
But that second time at #1 was, by all accounts, due to their tour there.
So obviously, even as late as 1987/88, touring had an impact on album sales.

And yes, "Family Man" did do better in England than "Seven Wonders" did... but England also gave the Spice Girls several massive hit singles, so.... ;)

[amber]

You and I Part 2. And I can't believe what you people are saying about Seven Wonders. I fell in love with just that song, and while I now like a bunch of others on the album, I'm still in love with just that one...
Amber

[dissention]

And yes, "Family Man" did do better in England than "Seven Wonders" did... but England also gave the Spice Girls several massive hit singles, so.... ;)

They also gave us David Bowie, The Rolling Stones, The Who, Eric Clapton, and a slew of others. ;) :p

[dissention]

Poor Jacob, he's going to have to slosh through all this junk to tabulate the results. :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Yes, I do. Like much of the album, Family Man is overproduced, IMO.

- Jake

But Seven Wonders isn't? :shrug:

[CarneVaca]

Yours, however, has obviously taken to typing nonsense. ;) :p

Dissention, I'm with you on this argument of course, but I must take a time out here and congratulate Johnny Stew on a very funny comment. Well done. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Again, her apology still does not negate the fact that she was barely there.

I don't recall anyone ever arguing to the contrary. And yet, you still continue not-so-artfully dodging your convenient ommission of Stevie's apology for the "bitching" incident you were so quick to point out.

[dissention]

I don't recall anyone ever arguing to the contrary. And yet, you still continue not-so-artfully dodging your convenient ommission of Stevie's apology for the "bitching" incident you were so quick to point out.

Because it has no value in this discussion. :shrug: She may have apologized, but it does nothing to shift attention from what she was actually bitching about: her lack of participation in album that will forever be associated with her.

[Johnny Stew]

Dissention, I'm with you on this argument of course, but I must take a time out here and congratulate Johnny Stew on a very funny comment. Well done. :laugh:

Thank you, thank you. :o

I'll bring you over from the dark-side yet, Carne. ;) :laugh:

[dissention]

Dissention, I'm with you on this argument of course, but I must take a time out here and congratulate Johnny Stew on a very funny comment. Well done. :laugh:

It was good, I couldn't even come up with a response. That's how good it was. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Because it has no value in this discussion. :shrug: She may have apologized, but it does nothing to shift attention from what she was actually bitching about: her lack of participation in album that will forever be associated with her.

So the fact that the woman flat-out admitted that it was her fault for not being around more, and apologized for that and for "bitching" about it, has no value to you?

What a pity Stevie can't apologize to you personally for letting you down so badly. :p ;)

[dissention]

So the fact that the woman flat-out admitted that it was her fault for not being around more, and apologized for that and for "bitching" about it, has no value to you?

What a pity Stevie can't apologize to you personally for letting you down so badly. :p ;)

Nope. She wasn't there, she bitched about it, then apologized because she knew she knew it was her own fault for not being there. I don't see the big deal. :shrug:

It is a pity. But such is life. ;)

[darklinensuit]

And I think he's wrong in the context that he was using. The way he said it, it was as if he honestly thought that the album wouldn't sell if they didn't tour. That's just bull, IMO.

The band still likes to use the "we're touring to promote our record" line with the current tour, and we all know that their tour really did nothing for the SYW album sales.

According to his book he was also basing it on the recent experience of Mirage.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

As hard as it is, I gotta agree with Dissention here. :laugh: I think Stevie had a small part in the success of that album, but Tango is Lindsey and Christine's baby. Seven Wonders is pretty good, but a) she didn't write it b) her vocals are pretty weak and c) it charted lower than Big Love, Little Lies, and Everywhere. And that was her best song on the album. I love Stevie, but the Tango period was just not her best. :)

I agree it was not her best period, but the fact remain that in the mid-'80s Stevie was a big name and brought many fans to that album.

- Jake

[dissention]

According to his book he was also basing it on the recent experience of Mirage.

- Jake

I think the reason Mirage didn't sell that well (it still sold millions and landed at #1) was because it had been three years since the last Mac album and people were worried about buying another Tusk.

[dissention]

I agree it was not her best period, but the fact remain that in the mid-'80s Stevie was a big name and brought many fans to that album.

- Jake

I refuse to take the bait and argue over how her popularity had diminished considerably by the time Tango rolled around. :laugh:

[darklinensuit]

As cold as it is, it's really quite welcoming, wouldn't you say? :laugh: :wavey:

I'm sure that's a line you've used more than once in another context (and not successfully). ;) :laugh: :wavey:

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Nope. She wasn't there, she bitched about it, then apologized because she knew she knew it was her own fault for not being there. I don't see the big deal. :shrug:

It's not a "big deal," only in the fact that you made mention of her "bitching," but ignored the fact that she apologized for the incident that you were so quick to chastize her for.

I guess no one is allowed to accept responsibility and say, "I was wrong."
Once you've done something, that's that, and there's no forgiveness.

[dissention]

I'm sure that's a line you've used more than once in another context (and not successfully). ;) :laugh: :wavey:

- Jake

That's why I have the doll you're always trumpeting. :p

[darklinensuit]

And yes, "Family Man" did do better in England than "Seven Wonders" did... but England also gave the Spice Girls several massive hit singles, so.... ;)

:laugh: That was my first thought too!

- Jake

[CarneVaca]

Tango was very popular, and ranks as the second-highest non-compilation selling album.

As with Rumours, Lindsey is primarily responsible for that.

Let the produce fly. I'm outta here anyway. Gotta go argue politics elsewhere.
:wavey:

[darklinensuit]

You and I Part 2. And I can't believe what you people are saying about Seven Wonders. I fell in love with just that song, and while I now like a bunch of others on the album, I'm still in love with just that one...
Amber

You & me both. :nod: :xoxo:

- Jake

[dissention]

It's not a "big deal," only in the fact that you made mention of her "bitching," but ignored the fact that she apologized for the incident that you were so quick to chastize her for.

I guess no one is allowed to accept responsibility and say, "I was wrong."
Once you've done something, that's that, and there's no forgiveness.

Of course they can. And Stevie was wrong and I'm glad she realized it.

[darklinensuit]

But Seven Wonders isn't? :shrug:

The keyboards are almost over the top, but they don't overpower the vocal. Plus it's a better song to begin with.

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

I refuse to take the bait and argue over how her popularity had diminished considerably by the time Tango rolled around. :laugh:

We've had this argument tons of times, too. No one has ever stated that Stevie's popularity hadn't diminished.
What is conveniently ignored, however, is that she was still... with absolutely no offense meant to the rest of the band or their talents... the biggest "name" and "star-draw" in that band. Even in the late '80s. And up to the time she quit Fleetwood Mac.

[darklinensuit]

I think the reason Mirage didn't sell that well (it still sold millions and landed at #1) was because it had been three years since the last Mac album and people were worried about buying another Tusk.

I disagree. Gypsy and Hold Me were being played all over & sounded nothing like Tusk.
Mirage was #1 briefly, according to Mick, because the band stopped the tour too soon.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

I refuse to take the bait and argue over how her popularity had diminished considerably by the time Tango rolled around. :laugh:

Not compared to the rest of the band's. :wavey:

- Jake

[dissention]

We've had this argument tons of times, too. No one has ever stated that Stevie's popularity hadn't diminished.
What is conveniently ignored, however, is that she was still... with absolutely no offense meant to the rest of the band or their talents... the biggest "name" and "star-draw" in that band. Even in the late '80s. And up to the time she quit Fleetwood Mac.

Not when it came to TITN's album sales. ;)

And just to lighten the mood, here's a joke I just got in an email:

Bush and Cheney went out to lunch at a local diner after a three-hour long campaign stop. Bush glances at the menu, makes his decision, and motions for the waitress.

"Can I help you, sir?" she asks.

"Yes, can I have a quickie?" he says to her.

The waitress grows beat red and runs away. Cheney leans over to Bush and whispers into his ear, "I believe that's pronounced quiche, sir."

:lol:

[darklinensuit]

That's why I have the doll you're always trumpeting. :p

You make a great couple. Blowhard & Blowhole. ;) :wavey:

- Jake

[David]

I didn't forget anything... I noted that it was the second time the album went to #1. But that second time at #1 was, by all accounts, due to their tour there. So obviously, even as late as 1987/88, touring had an impact on album sales.When did it get to #1 the second time? I don't think they got to Europe until May '88. They were supposed to get there earlier in the year, but Stevie was sick so they postponed the European tour.

Did Behind the Muck hit #1 in Europe at all? How well did it do in these United States? Let's face it: 1987/88 was the cusp of the tip of just about the end of it for Fleetwood Mac as a monster-seller.

Except for the reunion album . . . I keep forgetting that one. So are they done for or aren't they? YOU decide. . . .

[dissention]

Not compared to the rest of the band's. :wavey:

- Jake

That must be why the other two had the hit singles, eh? ;)

[CarneVaca]

The keyboards are almost over the top, but they don't overpower the vocal. Plus it's a better song to begin with.

- Jake

Meaning you believe there are songs in which the instrumentation power the vocals!? :shrug:

I think Tango is better produced than SYW. I like a lot of the SYW songs better than Tango, but the production in comparison is uneven. Tango has a uniformity of sound and production from song to song. With SYW, I've found myself EQing it between songs.

[Johnny Stew]

Tango was very popular, and ranks as the second-highest non-compilation selling album.

As with Rumours, Lindsey is primarily responsible for that.

I love 'Tango'... I think Lindsey was near to his production peak on that album.
To my ears, even the less-than-stellar songs sound amazing and have a lot going for them.

There are times when it is actually my favorite Mac album, and is all I listen to.

The difference between myself and most though, is that I love the contributions from all three members on 'Tango,' not just those of one or two of them.
I think each adds something valuable to the whole, and that removing any one member would leave the album lacking.

Lindsey's the brains, Christine's the heart, and Stevie's the soul.
They are Fleetwood Mac's own little "holy trinity"... as it was then, is now, and ever shall be.

[dissention]

I disagree. Gypsy and Hold Me were being played all over & sounded nothing like Tusk.
Mirage was #1 briefly, according to Mick, because the band stopped the tour too soon.

- Jake

You don't think that they alienated a lot of fans with the Tusk album who didn't buy Mirage as a result? :shocked:

[amber]

You make a great couple. Blowhard & Blowhole. ;) :wavey:

- Jake
:lol: :lol:

[77Rumours77]

Whoa!!!!!! :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:
What did I miss?!?!?! :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

[David]

We've had this argument tons of times, too. No one has ever stated that Stevie's popularity hadn't diminished.
What is conveniently ignored, however, is that she was still... with absolutely no offense meant to the rest of the band or their talents... the biggest "name" and "star-draw" in that band. Even in the late '80s. And up to the time she quit Fleetwood Mac.
She reeled 'em in at her solo concerts the first few years. You always know whether an act is hip or not if the area's biggest radio stations trumpet the upcoming concert(s), & in L.A. KLOS & KMET used to trumpet Stevie's solo shows up the yingus. There was an electricity in the air during the weeks preceding a Stevie Nicks concert -- as there was with Fleetwood Mac. It was a great, great feeling. But that all diminished by the time of her [counts] fourth solo album.

And not a moment too soon!

[Johnny Stew]

When did it get to #1 the second time? I don't think they got to Europe until May '88. They were supposed to get there earlier in the year, but Stevie was sick so they postponed the European tour.

Did Behind the Muck hit #1 in Europe at all? How well did it do in these United States? Let's face it: 1987/88 was the cusp of the tip of just about the end of it for Fleetwood Mac as a monster-seller.

Except for the reunion album . . . I keep forgetting that one. So are they done for or aren't they? YOU decide. . . .

I can't remember an exact date for the second time 'Tango' hit number 1 in England. I do know that it was at the time of their tour in Europe, and their sold-out run at Wembley.
1988 would be right then (I kept saying '87, didn't I?).

And yes, 'Behind The Mask' did hit #1 in Europe, but it peaked at #18 here in the states.

87/88 was most definitely FM's last, great period of monster sales... aside from 'The Dance,' of course. :)

[darklinensuit]

That must be why the other two had the hit singles, eh? ;)

Again, in the context of the band. Stevie's solo career brought fans to this band - a fact you refuse to admit. What they liked when they heard the album is a different debate. And Seven Wonders did chart, and I know plenty of casual fans who remember Seven Wonders but not Big Love. The only songs really that seem to be played on the radio are Little Lies and Everywhere.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

You don't think that they alienated a lot of fans with the Tusk album who didn't buy Mirage as a result? :shocked:

I really don't. Stevie was huge solo & the band was still high profile enough to get its songs out there. Anybody turning on the radio knew it wasn't Tusk.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Meaning you believe there are songs in which the instrumentation power the vocals!? :shrug:

I think Tango is better produced than SYW. I like a lot of the SYW songs better than Tango, but the production in comparison is uneven. Tango has a uniformity of sound and production from song to song. With SYW, I've found myself EQing it between songs.

To answer your question, Come & No Questions Asked come to mind.

I agree that Tango has a greater uniformity of sound, but I don't love the sound on most of the songs.

- Jake

[David]

You don't think that they alienated a lot of fans with the Tusk album who didn't buy Mirage as a result? :shocked:
I remember hearing Hold Me on KMET & being ridiculously excited about the upcoming release of Mirage. I thought they were singing "haunt me." I bought the 45 (with Eyes of the World on the back) & played it all the time (on something called a record-player). But you're right -- there was a sense of hesitation in the air; it wasn't an all-out Fleetwood Mac juggernaut, reconquering the world. It was nothing like the hoopla that preceded the release of Tusk (when even the nightly news broadcasts reported it). Fleetwood Mac's days as the biggest mainstream band in the world were already over . . . you could tell.

In 1979, it was a pop culture Event. In 1982, it was just "the next Fleetwood Mac album."

[David]

To answer your question, Come & No Questions Asked come to mind.
No Questions Asked is, technically speaking, a mess.

[darklinensuit]

She reeled 'em in at her solo concerts the first few years. You always know whether an act is hip or not if the area's biggest radio stations trumpet the upcoming concert(s), & in L.A. KLOS & KMET used to trumpet Stevie's solo shows up the yingus. There was an electricity in the air during the weeks preceding a Stevie Nicks concert -- as there was with Fleetwood Mac. It was a great, great feeling. But that all diminished by the time of her [counts] fourth solo album.

And not a moment too soon!

I agree except for that last line. :p
In Philly Stevie used to appear on a radio commercial, and I remember for RAL all the "Lady Lace" promotions. I missed that tour but it seems there were ads every two minutes & it was all the talk.

- Jake

[77Rumours77]

Just a litle off topic here but...

How much you wanna bet we surpass Rumours Song Survivor on post? Were only on rond 3 and with over 215 Post and In the whole game of Rumours we had 455. Hummm...? :laugh: :p :eek:

[CarneVaca]

To answer your question, Come & No Questions Asked come to mind.

Oh, so you were including non-Tango songs in the discussion. No Questions Asked wasn't produced by Lindsey. And Come is produced with buried vocals deliberately.

I agree that Tango has a greater uniformity of sound, but I don't love the sound on most of the songs.

- Jake

Fair enough. You don't love it, but it doesn't mean the album isn't extremely well produced.

[dissention]

Again, in the context of the band. Stevie's solo career brought fans to this band - a fact you refuse to admit. What they liked when they heard the album is a different debate. And Seven Wonders did chart, and I know plenty of casual fans who remember Seven Wonders but not Big Love. The only songs really that seem to be played on the radio are Little Lies and Everywhere.

- Jake

I never refused to admit that, the topic never came up. Go read one of my initial posts about this topic in this thread. I said that Stevie's presence had an impact on the sales, but not nearly as great of an impact as Lindsey's and Chris's songs did. ;)

I also never said Seven Wonders didn't chart. It did, at #19, to be exact. And it didn't last as long on the charts as the others.

[dissention]

I really don't. Stevie was huge solo & the band was still high profile enough to get its songs out there. Anybody turning on the radio knew it wasn't Tusk.

- Jake

Fleetwood Mac in 1977: The highest selling album of all-time.

Fleetwood Mac in 1979: Follow-up album flopped critically and commercially, even though it was expected to be an event of mythic proportions. Ticket sales for the tour lagged.

Fleetwood Mac in 1982: They're coming out with an album? I hope it's nothing like that last one.

See the difference? They weren't the band they used to be and their upcoming release wasn't regarded as such an event. It was just...coming soon.

[Johnny Stew]

Just a litle off topic here but...

How much you wanna bet we surpass Rumours Song Survivor on post? Were only on rond 3 and with over 215 Post and In the whole game of Rumours we had 455. Hummm...? :laugh: :p :eek:

I think it's due to the fact that most people have some very strong opinions of 'Tango.'
Whether it be pro or con in regards to Stevie's songs, or whether it be pro or con in regards to Lindsey's songs and/or production.

There's a lot more to debate about when it comes to 'Tango,' than there is for 'Rumours.'
For every song on 'Tango' that someone passionately loves, there's someone else who passionately hates it. 'Rumours' doesn't tend to elicit such polar-opposite opinions.

We'll try to cool it from here on out though.
Well, at least I will. ;) :)

[dissention]

I remember hearing Hold Me on KMET & being ridiculously excited about the upcoming release of Mirage. I thought they were singing "haunt me." I bought the 45 (with Eyes of the World on the back) & played it all the time (on something called a record-player). But you're right -- there was a sense of hesitation in the air; it wasn't an all-out Fleetwood Mac juggernaut, reconquering the world. It was nothing like the hoopla that preceded the release of Tusk (when even the nightly news broadcasts reported it). Fleetwood Mac's days as the biggest mainstream band in the world were already over . . . you could tell.

In 1979, it was a pop culture Event. In 1982, it was just "the next Fleetwood Mac album."

I agree. Plus, I don't think the singles themselves were very representative of the album as a whole.

[wondergirl9847]

A separate thread for a heated Tango discussion so this can remain Survivor? LOL

[Johnny Stew]

I also never said Seven Wonders didn't chart. It did, at #19, to be exact. And it didn't last as long on the charts as the others.

One last shot... *hehehe*

It did better than your beloved "Family Man" though.
By 71 notches on the chart. ;)

[dissention]

One last shot... *hehehe*

It did better than your beloved "Family Man" though.
By 71 notches on the chart. ;)

That's alright, it did worse than Family Man in the UK and that's all the satisfaction I need. :D Personally, I think they should've released Isn't It Midnight as a single instead of Family Man. But I think they saw the writing on the wall when Seven Wonders didn't perform as well as they probably thought it would.

[darklinensuit]

Oh, so you were including non-Tango songs in the discussion. No Questions Asked wasn't produced by Lindsey. And Come is produced with buried vocals deliberately.



Fair enough. You don't love it, but it doesn't mean the album isn't extremely well produced.

If the goal of production is stiflingly glossy uniformity, then yeah, it's done well. :)

And as for Come, what does deliberate have to do with anything? When did I debate that? You asked me if I thought instruments overpower a vocal, and I pointed to that song. For all we know No Questions Asked was going for a muffled sound as well. :shrug:

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

That's alright, it did worse than Family Man in the UK and that's all the satisfaction I need. :D

"Family Man" peaked at #54 in the UK and "Seven Wonders" peaked at #56... so I'm not sure how much satisfaction can be found in two chart positions.
Especially in comparison to a difference of 71 notches in the states. ;)


Personally, I think they should've released Isn't It Midnight as a single instead of Family Man. But I think they saw the writing on the wall when Seven Wonders didn't perform as well as they probably thought it would.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the writing on the wall."
"Seven Wonders" was the second single in the states, and there were three additional singles after it.
It was also the second single in the UK, and there were four singles after it (including "Isn't It Midnight"). :shrug:

[77Rumours77]

I think it's due to the fact that most people have some very strong opinions of 'Tango.'
Whether it be pro or con in regards to Stevie's songs, or whether it be pro or con in regards to Lindsey's songs and/or production.

There's a lot more to debate about when it comes to 'Tango,' than there is for 'Rumours.'
For every song on 'Tango' that someone passionately loves, there's someone else who passionately hates it. 'Rumours' doesn't tend to elicit such polar-opposite opinions.

We'll try to cool it from here on out though.
Well, at least I will. ;) :)
No No You dont have to stop, I find this very interesting, I wish I could of been a bigger part of this but I wasnt here :( . Oh well. Kepit coming this is very interesting

[darklinensuit]

I never refused to admit that, the topic never came up. Go read one of my initial posts about this topic in this thread. I said that Stevie's presence had an impact on the sales, but not nearly as great of an impact as Lindsey's and Chris's songs did. ;)

I also never said Seven Wonders didn't chart. It did, at #19, to be exact. And it didn't last as long on the charts as the others.

The topic did come up. You questioned how Stevie could justify taking money for Tango, and I responded that by bringing fans to the album she had helped sell it. You won't even concede that the tour helped sell that album - the tour that Lindsey skipped out on.

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

And as for Come, what does deliberate have to do with anything? When did I debate that? You asked me if I thought instruments overpower a vocal, and I pointed to that song. For all we know No Questions Asked was going for a muffled sound as well. :shrug:

No way, dude, only Lindsey does things intentionally. :p ;)

[dissention]

"Family Man" peaked at #54 in the UK and "Seven Wonders" peaked at #56... so I'm not sure how much satisfaction can be found in two chart positions.
Especially in comparison to a difference of 71 notches in the states. ;)

It still did better, that's all I need. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by "the writing on the wall."
"Seven Wonders" was the second single in the states, and there were three additional singles after it.
It was also the second single in the UK, and there were four singles after it (including "Isn't It Midnight"). :shrug:

I thought it was the fourth single, my mistake. But it must say something that the second single, a Stevie song, didn't do so hot and the others released after it did significantly better (save Family Man).

[Johnny Stew]

No No You dont have to stop, I find this very interesting, I wish I could of been a bigger part of this but I wasnt here :( . Oh well. Kepit coming this is very interesting

Thanks, Jacob! :)
Feel free to jump in at any time.

Especially if you agree with me. ;) :laugh: (That was just a joke.)

[face of glass]

Only related to pages 5&6 of the thread.
Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown."
Johnny, if you're speaking of the incessant repetition here then why does it not bother you in the Tango In The Night songs that eventually made it to the album?
Type down the lyrics and of course they may seem idiotic. That's what can happen to many-a-Rumours line-up song, actually. But this is once again you separating the lyrical content from the musical, otherwise you wouldn't bother in writing/copy-pasteing those down.
I don't take the vocals in "Ricky" as your usual lead vocals. I take the track as an interplay between Chris' singing and Lindsey's arrangement. So yes, I take it as an instrumental, I think the vocal there is an instrument (just like some of them are in "Family Man", for instance. IMO, there's obvious percussive effect attempted when Lindsey occasionally uses repetition). But then again, you said you didn't care much for those so I understand.
So if the vocals on the track are there because of an instrumental effect then is there any need for the piece to have more lyrical lines to it, instead of the repetition?
See, Gaius, what you don't realize is that I don't think EVERY song has to have deep lyrics or some substantive meaning. The ones that do, definitely have more meaning and appeal to me, but that's never stopped me from enjoying the others.
I apologize to you Johnny if it seems like I keep on hammering this certain point to your head. I just rarely see you speaking positively of songs with less "substantive meaning" in the lyrics, but then again maybe it's because they don't move you as much as the others.
It's just that, compared with Christine & Lindsey's other songs on 'Tango' (and even elsewhere), "Ricky" and "Down Endless Street" seem anemic.
It's your opinion and I appreciate it. I think there's about five tracks on Tango that I could replace with these and "You And I Part 1". Mind you, only two of these replaceable ones are Stevie's songs. :)
They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.
I do not believe that in emotional involvement, or in the amount of work put in, the Tango In The Night b-sides (save for "Book Of Miracles", which still needs a vocal but should be included into this poll because of ideological reasons) are any less 'lacking' than "Silver Springs".
"You And I Part 1" has the same polish and detailed work in it as the album tracks themselves; I believe you would agree with me on this one.
"Ricky" itself, while seemingly unfinished lyrically, does not need a rewriting because the emphasis is not on the lyrical side. And it is surprisingly polished for something that's just supposed to be a toss-off, or a demo. You don't put such production polish to a sparse lyric like that if you're not going to put it on the album with that very lyric.
"Down Endless Street" is the one you have the strongest case for, but then again it's interesting to note its similarity to the likes of "Holiday Road", where those cheap tone colours are used all over the place. "Holiday Road" is another of those Lindsey songs where the polish and the cheaper sounds from the instruments are combined (in "DES" I'm obviously referring to the keyboard vamp when I'm speaking of the 'cheaper' sound). So it could be that this was another attempt to do a song similar to that ideologically, although the same emotional effect wasn't being sought after.
Note also, that TITN already includes a song that has cheap tone colours all over it; "You And I Part 2". This one differs from "Down Endless Street" only in its mix, in order to give the album the 'precious homogeneity'. Maybe "Down Endless Street" then was meant to be included on the album as is, it only would have been mixed in to give the album the cohesive sound.
They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I don't think they would have spent so much time on a song that they didn't feel strongly about including.
One thing I would like to point out here is that no one knows for sure was "Silver Springs" totally finished when the band chose not to include it to the album. For sure, it was given a mix for the b-side version, but it was never given an album mix, to make it fit in, like they didn't do it with the TITN b-sides. Now doesn't that make it unfinished then, unfinished until the remix for the reissue? May it seem like nitpicking for some but for Fleetwood Mac that wouldn't be nitpicking. ;)
So, who here can honestly state that the TITN b-sides weren't intended for the album? Stevie has three songs in there and "Ricky", "Down Endless Street" and "You And I Part 1" fit to those exact slots, when mixed with the rest of the album. For me any speculation on their finished state isn't anything more than speculation, and it might also be reflective of the person's opinion on these songs.
(Mick and Lindsey have both said that the band was NOT willing to compromise the sound quality, by increasing the running time)
It is very difficult for me to believe that the band couldn't have worked with a cutting engineer with the skills to put "Silver Springs" on the album. So it's very likely that it wasn't intended for inclusion back in 1977.
But the band feels that "Silver Springs" should have "always been a part of 'Rumours'," and I've never heard them say that about "Ricky" or "Down Endless Street" or "Cool Water."
Again, is there anything surprising in this? This is coming from a band who still essentially promotes Rumours MORE than their most recent release; just look at the setlist.
Certainly there has been a lot of discussion on "Silver Springs", but that's also because of the aura and pull of Rumours, in addition to the non-musical package (=the drama) that comes with the songs. Doesn't Stevie storming out of the parking lot after hearing about "Silver Springs" not making the album fit into this like a glove? It's a fascinating story for many, for sure. Similar to the voices in Dark Side Of The Moon, or the supposed backwards messages in "Stairway To Heaven".
You're never going to hear Lindsey mourning over the relegation of "Cool Water", You And I Part 1", "Down Endless Street" or "Ricky" to a b-side status. Why would he need to do it anyway, because he's rarely been asked about those albums since the obligatory promotion?

The band had a lot of years to correct their 'mistake'. When CD was made available in the '80s and Ken Caillat was spending his time preparing the Rumours for it (he pulled the first issue from stores because he hated the sound quality) the band chose not to include the song on the album as a bonus, even though such things were becoming common practice. They didn't give a damn about it until after 1997, when the track received the public recognition that it deserves.
What I'd like to know, though, is how well "Silver Springs" would do in a Survivor-type setting, if it HAD been included on 'Rumours' all along. And I have a feeling it might end up being the number one song, or the runner-up (behind "The Chain").
I actually disagree with your theory. If "Silver Springs" had been on the album since the beginning it might have been even more popular than "Dreams", and that would make it another song that suffers from the overplaying factor as well.

The reason why I'm still going on in here is because I identify with those three TITN b-sides on an emotional level. "You And I Part 1" to me, is equal to "Silver Springs" in emotional impact and that's a pretty high compliment in my book.
Would I complain to this extent if I did not like the tracks? Probably not, but I still would complain to an extent. Ideologically "Silver Springs" isn't in any better position than the TITN b-sides, and that's something that one should take into account. I don't care if they were all voted off in the first rounds, but they have as much right to be here as "Silver Springs" had in the Rumours poll. But let Jacob have his poll as it is, I've been enjoying it in spite of my nitpicking and I can always enjoy those songs in my land of Esoterica while blocking my ears from critique. :p

[face of glass]

Folks are bound and determined to vote off all of Stevie's songs first. Not just "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but votes against "Seven Wonders," too???

Sad state of affairs.
While I realize that you would wish for Stevie songs to stay in longer, in order to keep up the precious balance in between the Rumours line-up writers, I think it's generally reflective of the esoteric (yes, I'm going to use that word to the end of the world, thanks Lindsey) quality in the two songs involved. You know which ones I'm talking about. That's what tends to happen, the material that is generally more esoteric and acquired taste is usually dropped first. That's what happened to "Family Man" too, and obviously a few other Lindsey songs are in similar 'danger'. ;)
Of course, you and I could always start grumbling and say that people should learn to tolerate these more, listen to these more so that they would 'get them' or be 'emotionally moved by them' or whatever. But really, can you ask for such a thing from fans who have obviously spent years with these songs and once in a while tried to listen to them, and still have failed to like them? A song that takes numerous listens in order to be appreciated is, in my mind, not preferable to those that grab the interest in an instant.
So yes, Lindsey and Stevie have material on Tango In The Night (and elsewhere in their careers) that is more esoteric and less universal than the rest of their music. It certainly doesn't mean that the tracks are 'bad' (which I do not wish to use for these, because I know it can raise some emotions in everyone) but their appeal is less than of other songs. And when the songs tend to raise such diverse reactions on a board that's supposed to be full of fans, you'd think that would give some proof to my theory.

Of course it would be interesting to see what would happen if people stopped protecting the songs they want to keep in polls but then it wouldn't be as much perverse fun, now would it? ;)

Seems like the old cat's out of the bag again. We just still love these old arguments, don't we? :lol:

Um, don't mind me. Poll & blabber on. :wavey:

[CarneVaca]

If the goal of production is stiflingly glossy uniformity, then yeah, it's done well. :)

For the time, it sounded great. Still sounds great to my ear, and I have a very discriminating ear. The other one is a little more tolerant, though. ;)

And as for Come, what does deliberate have to do with anything? When did I debate that?

Dude, you're not going to put me in a position to defend Come.

You asked me if I thought instruments overpower a vocal, and I pointed to that song. For all we know No Questions Asked was going for a muffled sound as well. :shrug:

- Jake

I think I may have lost the thread on this one, but as I recall: You said Seven Wonders is better than Family Man and mentioned production issues. I disagreed, and said that the Spanish guitar work alone on Family Man blows Seven Wonders away. You brought up keyboards almost overpowering vocals as a production issue on Seven Wonders. I wondered if you were implying that other songs in Tango had the same problem, adding that I think Tango has great, uniform production. Then you brought up two non-Tango songs, which has brought us to a murky twist in the road. No Questions Asked, by the way, is a song I haven't heard in probably 10 years. It's one of those I forgot existed and actually had to stop and think when and how it was released. GH, right? So, I couldn't tell you if the vocals are buried or too loud, or whatever.

Don't care. :shrugh: The point is, Tango is greatness! :]

[face of glass]

Voting time
"Welcome To The Room...Sara". "Family Man" will soon "see you again".

[Johnny Stew]

It still did better, that's all I need. ;)

Talk about desperately clinging to something. ;) :laugh:


I thought it was the fourth single, my mistake. But it must say something that the second single, a Stevie song, didn't do so hot and the others released after it did significantly better (save Family Man).

"Little Lies" and "Everywhere" where catchier singles. No doubt about it.
Christine really came to life on 'Tango,' and she deserved to have the success with her singles that she had. :)

[dissention]

The topic did come up. You questioned how Stevie could justify taking money for Tango, and I responded that by bringing fans to the album she had helped sell it. You won't even concede that the tour helped sell that album - the tour that Lindsey skipped out on.

- Jake

You're twisting the thread to fit your views now. I never said she didn't help sell it, please quote me where I said that. And there is a clear difference between tour proceeds and album proceeds.

As for "not conceding that the tour helped sell the album," I don't believe it did in the States. I don't know what Le Stew is talking about when he says it was #1 twice in the UK (he needs to link to a chart or somehting), but I do know that the album was on the charts for an entire year before they even played hteir first UK date. ;)

[CarneVaca]

"Ricky" is an awful song. Thank God it didn't make the album. Unfortunately, "Seven Wonders," "Welcome to the Room... Sara" and "When I See You Again Did."

OK, I admit, Seven Wonders isn't too bad, even if the vocals are cringe-worthy.

[darklinensuit]

You're twisting the thread to fit your views now. I never said she didn't help sell it, please quote me where I said that. And there is a clear difference between tour proceeds and album proceeds.

As for "not conceding that the tour helped sell the album," I don't believe it did in the States. I don't know what Le Stew is talking about when he says it was #1 twice in the UK (he needs to link to a chart or somehting), but I do know that the album was on the charts for an entire year before they even played hteir first UK date. ;)

First, in regard to the tour, the Shake The Cage Tour was very big in this country, no doubt.

Second, the thread seems twisted to suit you. I never said that you said (:shocked:) that she didn't help sell the album. I said that you refused to concede that Stevie brought fans to the album, thus helping to sell it, thus helping to justify that she should have no problem taking money for the album, which you had questioned.
Now we're unraveled. :)

- Jake

[dissention]

First, in regard to the tour, the Shake The Cage Tour was very big in this country, no doubt.

Second, the thread seems twisted to suit you. I never said that you said (:shocked:) that she didn't help sell the album. I said that you refused to concede that Stevie brought fans to the album, thus helping to sell it, thus helping to justify that she should have no problem taking money for the album, which you had questioned.
Now we're unraveled. :)

- Jake

In any case, I'm confused to the point where I'm finished with this thread. :laugh:

WTTR...S sucks, will be the next one gone, and Seven Wonders will follow suit eventually. :) Then I'll be happy. :lol:

[darklinensuit]

In any case, I'm confused to the point where I'm finished with this thread. :laugh:

WTTR...S sucks, will be the next one gone, and Seven Wonders will follow suit eventually. :) Then I'll be happy. :lol:

:rolleyes: As you exit to the Grinch theme music.

- Jake

[dissention]

:rolleyes: As you exit to the Grinch theme music.

- Jake

Which I hear was written about you... :xoxo:

[Johnny Stew]

Johnny, if you're speaking of the incessant repetition here then why does it not bother you in the Tango In The Night songs that eventually made it to the album?

As I mentioned, my biggest beef is that for a song that's nearing the 5 minute mark, there's just not a lot going on.
Perhaps it would have been edited down if it was used on the album though. But who knows?

The band had a lot of years to correct their 'mistake'. When CD was made available in the '80s and Ken Caillat was spending his time preparing the Rumours for it (he pulled the first issue from stores because he hated the sound quality) the band chose not to include the song on the album as a bonus, even though such things were becoming common practice. They didn't give a damn about it until after 1997, when the track received the public recognition that it deserves.

We're talking about the same band here that allowed one of its most famous songs to be included in a majorally-edited form on the 'Tusk' CD.
I don't think they cared much about the compact disc format at that time, and it was highly unlikely they would have included a "bonus track" on any of the discs.

[face of glass]

We're talking about the same band here that allowed one of its most famous songs to be included in a majorally-edited form on the 'Tusk' CD.
I've understood that in the early days of the CD, when Tusk was made for its first cd-reissue, it wasn't possible to get it over 74 minutes without losing the sound quality. I don't know if it is possible even know. Maybe it is, we all know Say You Will runs longer than that.
I don't think they cared much about the compact disc format at that time, and it was highly unlikely they would have included a "bonus track" on any of the discs.
Ah, but they had Ken Caillat working on those back then, so I don't think they were totally ignorant and actually were informed on the situation.
In any case, the band only began to care about the song again after The Dance. If they would have cared about it as much earlier (=after Rumours, that is), you'd think it would have taken a place of the more obscure Stevie song in the setlist.