Tango In The Night Song Survivor!

[amber]

In any case, I'm confused to the point where I'm finished with this thread. :laugh:

WTTR...S sucks, will be the next one gone, and Seven Wonders will follow suit eventually. :) Then I'll be happy. :lol:
No way, SW is going all the way, Dude. :)
AMber

[sparky]

Sara...your welcome has run out.

[jbrownsjr]

Meaning you believe there are songs in which the instrumentation power the vocals!? :shrug:

I think Tango is better produced than SYW. I like a lot of the SYW songs better than Tango, but the production in comparison is uneven. Tango has a uniformity of sound and production from song to song. With SYW, I've found myself EQing it between songs.

I swear sometimes I think we are attached at the hip. I still can't find a happy EQ balance to SYW. I agree 100%.

[amber]

Sara...your welcome has run out.
Omigod - no! This is a dream, right?
AMber

[jbrownsjr]

Talk about desperately clinging to something. ;) :laugh:




"Little Lies" and "Everywhere" where catchier singles. No doubt about it.
Christine really came to life on 'Tango,' and she deserved to have the success with her singles that she had. :)

Um how about Say You Love Me, You Make Loving Fun, Don't Stop, and Hold Me? Those are kind of catchy no? She always had a knack for catchy hits Johnny. And as time went on she had a lot to do with the production. She just didn't want to work 100 hours a week vs. 70 hours.

[chiliD]

I've understood that in the early days of the CD, when Tusk was made for its first cd-reissue, it wasn't possible to get it over 74 minutes without losing the sound quality.

It had nothing to do with "sound quality"...the running length of a CD was originally arbitrarily set as the "industry standard" of 58 minutes...which is why some "double albums" were issued as 2-CD sets (Jimi Hendrix's Electric Ladyland, Derek & Dominos' Layla ) and some were issued with tracks omitted ([Prince's 1999, Little Feat's Waiting For Columbus ) or shortened (Fleetwood Mac's Tusk ). The industry standard later changed to 74 minutes somewhere around 1990 and quite a few of those double-CD sets became single CD's; and some of the originally omitted tracks were restored to their albums. Why they didn't restore "Sara" to its original length then, I'll never know. Then around 1996 or so, it was again upped to 80 minutes.

[Johnny Stew]

Um how about Say You Love Me, You Make Loving Fun, Don't Stop, and Hold Me? Those are kind of catchy no? She always had a knack for catchy hits Johnny.

:laugh:
I didn't mean my statement as an implication that her pre-'Tango' singles weren't terrific and catchy, too, I just tend to think she had really hit her stride by 1987.
In fact, I think most of her late-80s and '90s material was even better than her stuff prior to it, which was already damn good. :nod: :)

[dissention]

:laugh:
I didn't mean my statement as an implication that her pre-'Tango' singles weren't terrific and catchy, too, I just tend to think she had really hit her stride by 1987.
In fact, I think most of her late-80s and '90s material was even better than her stuff prior to it, which was already damn good. :nod: :)

I agree. Her best songwriting period was '87-'95, IMO. Behind the Mask being her best song, of course. :D

[sparky]

Omigod - no! This is a dream, right?
AMber

One of my real dreams would be to go back in time and prevent that incoherent, rambling swill from making it onto the record in the first place.

[sparky]

I agree. Her best songwriting period was '87-'95, IMO. Behind the Mask being her best song, of course. :D

Ditto that. I love that song. The guitar solo is transcendent.

[jbrownsjr]

That was just my manipulative way of making dissention and Johnny agree.

Johnny I knew exactly what you meant! :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

One of my real dreams would be to go back in time and prevent that incoherent, rambling swill from making it onto the record in the first place.

Oh yeah, as I recall, 'Quantum Leap' did have an "Evil Leaper," too. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

That was just my manipulative way of making dissention and Johnny agree.

:laugh:

If you want to see dissention and I agreeing, just check out the Chit-Chat Forum's political threads! :laugh:

[jbrownsjr]

I probably would fit in. I am more liberal in my politics. About 60-40.

But I live in California, so I'm surrounded by liberals.

[sparky]

Oh yeah, as I recall, 'Quantum Leap' did have an "Evil Leaper," too. ;)

Amongst the other evils I would commit in my "leap" would include thwarting the cocaine use, the Klonopin haze, and the chain smoking - then she might have had a few decent songs to offer for the Tango sessions and the ability to turn in vocals that don't make me cringe to this day. That's me - evil to the core ! :wavey:

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that that there is a tie Now we have to go back and look to see who has had the most votes in the past.. And it looks like Wecome To The Room...Sara has the most votes. WTTR..S please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
Welcome To The Room... Sara - 12
You And I Part II - 12
Big Love - 1
Mystified - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight
You And I, Part II

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2
Welcome To The Room.. Sara - 8/3

[77Rumours77]

Its a sad sad day! WTTRS is gone :( :( :( :( :( Im sad, Ok Im bact to normal! I vote for You And I part II

[SaraRhiannon]

You And I, Part II

[ontheEdgeof17]

Ewe and Eye Part II


-Curtis

[GardenStateGirlie]

LAME.

Voting for You and I, Part II again

[Johnny Stew]

What a pity. :(
Ah well... at least "Family Man" went before it! ;) :laugh:
("Well, Mr. Salt finally got what he wanted." "What's that?" "Veruca went first.")

My vote again... "You And I, Part 2."

[Tango]

Ewe and Eye Part II


-Curtis

:laugh: I gotta go along with that one!~

[GypsySorcerer]

I like all the songs left...this will be hard, but I've got to think strategically.;)

I guess You and I, Pt. II. sniff, sniff. :(

[HomerMcvie]

Now that the three worst ones are gone, I'm gonna have a hard time with the rest. I like them all, and, unlike Rumours, I'm not burned out on them.......
soooo..........
Caroline.

[ryan8472]

You And I, part 2

[littlelies7]

Big Love... :rolleyes:

[jwd]

I was going to vote an hour ago.....but round 3 was a loooooong one! :laugh:

My vote goes to Mystified. Diabetics beware, this one's loaded with waaaaay too much sugar! YUCK!

[Cristian]

Thanks for the heated debate held in the pages of this topic... it really became quite useful to know the passions that this album wakes up in the Fleetwood Mac fans. It's quite easily my least favorite of the Rumours lineup mostly because of Lindsey's overproduced stuff and Stevie's total lack of compromise... although Christine's tunes (except "Everywhere" maybe) make up for a terrific album, joined by some nice tunes by Lindsey (title track, "Big Love") and the fantastic "Seven Wonders".

Anyway my vote now is for "You And I, Part II"

[sparky]

Mystified.

[Vianna]

Caroline goes next...Bye!

[Hawkeye]

You and I part 2.

[golden braid]

You and I, Part 2

[TISL]

My Round 4 vote:

Mystified (snooze.......)

[Merf]

You And I, Part Deux.

[Wild_Heart03]

You And I Part II... so long!!

[xdreamsunwindx]

Aw! I love You and I Part II.

I'll vote for Everywhere. The studio version is the epitome of elevator music-esque FM songs.

-Kate

[DeadliestPoison]

I'll vote for Everywhere. The studio version is the epitome of elevator music-esque FM songs.
Actually, I think Sara holds that title.

[xdreamsunwindx]

Actually, I think Sara holds that title.

Ah, you have a point there, Greg.

-Kate

[darklinensuit]

For the time, it sounded great. Still sounds great to my ear, and I have a very discriminating ear. The other one is a little more tolerant, though. ;)



Dude, you're not going to put me in a position to defend Come.



I think I may have lost the thread on this one, but as I recall: You said Seven Wonders is better than Family Man and mentioned production issues. I disagreed, and said that the Spanish guitar work alone on Family Man blows Seven Wonders away. You brought up keyboards almost overpowering vocals as a production issue on Seven Wonders. I wondered if you were implying that other songs in Tango had the same problem, adding that I think Tango has great, uniform production. Then you brought up two non-Tango songs, which has brought us to a murky twist in the road. No Questions Asked, by the way, is a song I haven't heard in probably 10 years. It's one of those I forgot existed and actually had to stop and think when and how it was released. GH, right? So, I couldn't tell you if the vocals are buried or too loud, or whatever.

Don't care. :shrugh: The point is, Tango is greatness! :]

I just got back & saw this post.
I was not singling out Seven Wonders for bad production. I said I felt Family Man had it. The closest thing SW has to overproduction is the simple keyboard parts, but they do not overpower her voice. Had they, the production would be poor, IMO. You asked me of other FM songs where I felt the vocal was overpowered by instruments, and I responded with Come & NQA.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Which I hear was written about you... :xoxo:

Think of me sweet darlin' every time you're feeling mean. :)

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

:laugh:
I didn't mean my statement as an implication that her pre-'Tango' singles weren't terrific and catchy, too, I just tend to think she had really hit her stride by 1987.
In fact, I think most of her late-80s and '90s material was even better than her stuff prior to it, which was already damn good. :nod: :)

Sorry, you lost me here, Johnny.
My favorite Chris stuff is pre-Rumours (with the exception of Honey Hi).
IMO Time had her weakest songs.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Everywhere gets my vote.

Too perky & keyboardy for my tastes.

- Jake

[face of glass]

It had nothing to do with "sound quality"...the running length of a CD was originally arbitrarily set as the "industry standard" of 58 minutes...
Ok, thanks for that. :wavey:

[face of glass]

Now begins my desperate attempt to get rid of the one song that bothers me in the "housewives" section of the album.

"Everywhere", you can go nowhere now.

[Hippocampus]

You And I Part II

[Hippocampus]

I agree. Her best songwriting period was '87-'95, IMO. Behind the Mask being her best song, of course. :D


Yes, when she started relying heavily on co-writers ;)

[dissention]

Mystified. Too sugary sweet. Nice harmonies, though.

[Patti]

I'm going to go with Everywhere this round.

[Serrart]

You And I, Part II... again

Romy

[ShamHy89]

Everywhere. Album version = lame.

Shamus

[CarneVaca]

I vote for Seven Wonders. The vocal alone is reason enough to throw it out.

[Janet]

I throw out Family Man

[dissention]

I throw out Family Man

It's gone. Try again! :wavey:

[amber]

Mystified - But only because You and I part 2 is faster....
AMber

[David]

I'd like to kill Caroline.

May I do that?

[darklinensuit]

It's gone. Try again! :wavey:

Please, can't we kick it out twice just for fun? ;) :wavey:

- Jake

[amber]

I'd like to kill Caroline.

May I do that?
Absolutely not. That's my second favorite song. Why don't you settle down, take a deep breath, and listen to the exciting, varied, rhythms of Caroline again through your earphones. Then listen to the haunting beautiful dramatic melody and lyrics that go so well with all the percussiveness. Take another deep breath....Now f*** off and leave Caroline alone!! :mad:

:laugh: :laugh: Just kidding, dearie.
Amber

[darklinensuit]

Absolutely not. That's my second favorite song. Why don't you settle down, take a deep breath, and listen to the exciting, varied, rhythms of Caroline again through your earphones. Then listen to the haunting beautiful dramatic melody and lyrics that go so well with all the percussiveness. Take another deep breath....Now f*** off and leave Caroline alone!! :mad:

:laugh: :laugh: Just kidding, dearie.
Amber

I'm half with you. Great chorus, sucky verses, IMO.

- Jake

[amber]

I'm half with you. Great chorus, sucky verses, IMO.

- Jake
I figured people would say that. I see what you mean, but i kind of like them.

Maybe it's cause i'm so crazy, stagey, lazy
Maybe it's cause i keep on comin' and keep you runnin'
Maybe it's cause i'm so attractive, and so reactive...
Who can say?
;) :wavey: :laugh:
AMber

[HomerMcvie]

Now f*** off and leave Caroline alone!!
The only thing I can't stand is how long he draws the title character's name out.
Carol-I-I-I-I-I-I-ine. Sorry, that grates a little bit.
By-y-y-y-y-y-y-e Carol-I-I-I-I-I-I-ine. :sorry:

[amber]

The only thing I can't stand is how long he draws the title character's name out.
Carol-I-I-I-I-I-I-ine. Sorry, that grates a little bit.
By-y-y-y-y-y-y-e Carol-I-I-I-I-I-I-ine. :sorry:
uh, so that makes it worse than You and I part 2, or mystified? Don't think so.
AMber

[dissention]

uh, so that makes it worse than You and I part 2, or mystified? Don't think so.
AMber

Hey, Caroline's better than Seven Wonders, my friend. :D I quite like it. Every member of the band has written some clunky lyrics, but that doesn't necessarily make the song awful, IMO.

[amber]

Hey, Caroline's better. :thumbsup: than Seven Wonders, my friend.. :D . :mad: I quite like it. Every member of the band has written some clunky lyrics, but that doesn't necessarily make the song awful, IMO.
I would like Caroline better, too, if Stevie wasn't singing Seven Wonders. I love her voice quality, I just can't help myself.

[dissention]

I would like Caroline better, too, if Stevie wasn't singing Seven Wonders. I love her voice quality, I just can't help myself.

She sounds too haggard for my tastes on SW. :sorry:

[amber]

She sounds too haggard for my tastes on SW. :sorry:
That's when i love her voice, too. Ragged, rough, snarly, :thumbsup:
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

That's when i love her voice, too. Ragged, rough, snarly

Same here. I miss her raspier days, like nobody's business.

[amber]

Same here. I miss her raspier days, like nobody's business.
:xoxo: I was just gonna put that, but they said message too short so i'm writing this. I also miss her range, too, though.
AMber

[sparky]

:xoxo: I was just gonna put that, but they said message too short so i'm writing this. I also miss her range, too, though.
AMber

Ah, we all miss the range...

[Johnny Stew]

Ah, we all miss the range...

What can sometimes be frustrating, is that she apparently still HAS a decent range. Not comparable to the mid-'70s, of course, but decent enough.
She just tends not to sing in it.

While I love her low range, and the warm, rumbly sound of her voice these days, I do wish she'd take a few risks once in a while.
Since the days of 'The Dance,' and her comments that she had been working with a vocal coach to insure there would be "no bad vocal nights," I think she's become TOO concerned about not pushing her voice in a way that might lead to a sour note.

Somewhat related... I have sometimes wondered if that large hole in her sinuses causes any pain/discomfort if she's breathing too hard, or singing in a particular way. I'd think it would almost have to be uncomfortable at the very least.

So maybe that, more than anything else, might be why she holds back a lot of times?

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that You And I Part II has the most votes. YAIP2 please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
You And I Part II - 15
Mystified - 5
Caroline - 3
Everywhere - 3
Seven Wonders - 1
Big Love - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Mystified
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2
Welcome To The Room.. Sara - 8/3
You And I part II - 8/4

[Violet]

I vote for Everywhere this time.

To blah for me....

Carol

[77Rumours77]

I will have to go with....
Mystified

[jwd]

Move over Mystified!

[GypsySorcerer]

I'll go with "Everywhere," I guess. I prefer the Dance version.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Everywhere


-Curt

[Wild_Heart03]

Caroline... see you later.

[Johnny Stew]

Bye-bye, "Mystified."

[HomerMcvie]

Carol I I I I I I ine.

[GardenStateGirlie]

I like the song but I think i'm going to have to go with Mystified

[BellaDonna98]

I'm going with Caroline.

[SaraRhiannon]

Caroline :wavey:

[Tango]

CAROLINE!

She's so crazy, she's so lazy . . . no need to keep her around any longer!

[darklinensuit]

Everywhere.

- Jake

[DeeGeMe]

Everywhere

[golden braid]

My choice is Caroline.

[Cristian]

Uhm... "Caroline"

Perhaps the idea of this extremely wild woman, almost mystic, could have used lyrics a little better than the ones he used in the verses. The choruses are quite fine, though. Who's screaming there? It's the VSO again?

Anyway, go...

[GretaRhiannon]

:eek: :distress: *faints*

heh, its bad, and the video doesnt do it much justice either....Lindsey + make up = ugly lol

One should never wear as much make up as your ex girlfriend...

[GretaRhiannon]

I vote for Big Love again...and I always will until it's gone...

[Hawkeye]

Thus votes got me MYSTIFIED

[face of glass]

Obviously there's no consensus which housewife favourite we should drop. I'll still choose "Everywhere".

[wondergirl9847]

Mystified...even tho I adore the remaining songs....and those knocked off...except WISYA.

[tynan88]

Caroline

Tynan

[secondhandchain]

I'm voting Caroline

[TISL]

Round 5:

Mystified (yawn...)

[sparky]

Mystified Into A Stupor

[Hippocampus]

Voting for "Big Love"

[Bryan]

I vote Caroline

[Patti]

Everywhere please go anywhere, but just go.

[ryan8472]

Mystified goes this time...

[dissention]

Mystified. Ugh.

[MikeB]

Caroline to go this round

[CarneVaca]

I vote for Seven Wonders again. And register shock at Johnny Stew's criticism of Stevie, mild though it was. :eek:

[Johnny Stew]

And register shock at Johnny Stew's criticism of Stevie, mild though it was. :eek:

:laugh:

I have my likes and dislikes in regards to Stevie, just like everyone else does... I just don't make as big of a deal out of those things as is often made.

Stevie Nicks Positives: 97%
Stevie Nicks Negatives: 3%

Why dwell on the 3%? :)

(For the record, if it had lasted longer, there would have come a time in the course of this game where I would have registered a vote for "Welcome To The Room... Sara," since there are other songs on the album that I prefer ahead of it.)

[stefan]

It`s time to stir things in the right direction so I have to help getting rid of Mystified. That one is nearly as bad as Only over you from Mirage so please someone take it away soon.

[Serrart]

Yes, Mystified has to go.

Romy

[amber]

What can sometimes be frustrating, is that she apparently still HAS a decent range. Not comparable to the mid-'70s, of course, but decent enough.
She just tends not to sing in it.

While I love her low range, and the warm, rumbly sound of her voice these days, I do wish she'd take a few risks once in a while.
Since the days of 'The Dance,' and her comments that she had been working with a vocal coach to insure there would be "no bad vocal nights," I think she's become TOO concerned about not pushing her voice in a way that might lead to a sour note.

Somewhat related... I have sometimes wondered if that large hole in her sinuses causes any pain/discomfort if she's breathing too hard, or singing in a particular way. I'd think it would almost have to be uncomfortable at the very least.

So maybe that, more than anything else, might be why she holds back a lot of times?
Yeah, maybe. I thought she kicked it out pretty well for Smile at You and RTTG, but of course she didn't sing those on the tour. You're probably right.
Ok, I just strangely realized that I think Mystified is better than the album version of "Big Love" but i'm voting for Mystified anyway, cause i don't want to split the vote too much, and if Caroline goes, i'm gonna freak out!! What the heck is wrong with you people anyway!? Can't you hear the great rhythms?
AMber

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that Mystified has the most votes. Mystified please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
Mystified - 19
Caroline - 10
Everywhere - 3
Big Love - 2
Seven Wonders - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Caroline
Tango In The Night
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2
Welcome To The Room.. Sara - 8/3
You And I part II - 8/4
Mystified - 8/5

[77Rumours77]

Big Love
Get your ass outta here... NOW :mad:

[HomerMcvie]

Carol I I I I I I ine

[ontheEdgeof17]

Oh I, I
I,I
I wanna see EVERYWHERE go!



-Curt

[dissention]

Seven Wonders. Go rest your haggard voice. :wavey:

[Cristian]

Caroline

Although the more I listen to the song, the better I think it is. Still quite mediocre to my personal taste though. :shrug:

[GardenStateGirlie]

I believe it's time for Everywhere to take a hike

[GypsySorcerer]

Seven Wonders...........bye.

[jwd]

I think I wanna vote Everywhere off now. Yep, that's my final decision. :)

[xdreamsunwindx]

Everywhere. The reason I avoid elevators.

-Kate

[TISL]

You’re not sweet
CAROLINE~

GOODBYE!

[Johnny Stew]

Now is when it's going to get VERY tough.

My vote is for "Caroline."
It's a great song, but not as great as the remaining songs. And "Everywhere" might have otherwise been my pick (and probably will in the next round), but its exhilarating chorus won out over Lindsey's labored rhyming scheme.

(By the way, I think this game should come down to "Big Love," "Seven Wonders" and "Little Lies." Though "Isn't It Midnight" and "Tango In The Night" are also worthy of being in the top 3.)

[Hawkeye]

AHHH AHHHH I want to vote for you Everywhere I want to Vote for you Everywhere

[golden braid]

I'm going with Caroline again.

[Vianna]

<font face="Comic Sans Ms" size="5">CAROLINE</font>

[Wild_Heart03]

Let's get rid of Caroline... PLEASE!

[SaraRhiannon]

Voting for Caroline again.

[Tango]

Oooooooh Caroline-a. Bye!

[face of glass]

"Everywhere". My "perfect kiss is the kiss of death" for you. :xoxo:

[secondhandchain]

How you guys don't see the beauty in Mystified is beyond me. The harmonies, the chord changes, the guitar solo. It's got a moody, tropical feel to it with a great chord change in the guitar solo. Anyway, to each his own. I vote for Seven Wonders. "that it might work out some day" her voice sounds harrrrrrrible on this. Don't get mad at me, I love Stevie.



Seven Wonders - The eight wonder of the world is how Lindsey let that over the top vocal be on the record. Lindsey you know you have to reel Stevie in some times.

[tynan88]

Bye Bye Caroline

Also Jacob is there any chance you could post the voting in the first post so it is easier and we dont have to search through the pages??? :o

Tynan

[Hippocampus]

Still voting for "Big Love"

[Patti]

Yet again, Everywhere.

[ryan8472]

Everywhere should be nowhere on this list ;). So Everywhere it is.

[CarneVaca]

Seven Wonders

[Nightbird_Brett]

I vote Caroline.

[Bryan]

baaaaa...i'm voting Everywhere because everyone else is voting it...baaaaaa!

Not really :] I'm voting Caroline

This thing is pissing me off more than the Rumours game.Mystified got 19 VOTES?! WTF! And it's looking like Caroline might be staying AGAIN.Crazy.

[sparky]

Caroline....

[Claudia]

This is getting hard! I guess my vote goes to Caroline

[sodascouts]

Isn't It Midnight = snooze. I vote for it!

[ryan8472]

Isn't It Midnight = snooze. I vote for it!

Blasphemy! :lol:

[David]

This thing is pissing me off more than the Rumours game.Mystified got 19 VOTES?! WTF!
I love "Mystified," & am mystified as to why it isn't more popular.

[HomerMcvie]

I love "Mystified," & am mystified as to why it isn't more popular.
You know, it was never one of my favorites, BUT, since this thread started, I've listened to Tango about 10 times, and I like really DO like it now. It's beautiful.

[amber]

Seven Wonders - The eight wonder of the world is how Lindsey let that over the top vocal be on the record. Lindsey you know you have to reel Stevie in some times.
I would like to submit that if you don't love Stevie over the top, you don't really love Stevie :shrug: And talk about reigning someone in, Lindsey perpetrated some :distress: on this record.
I want to vote for Big Love, cause i think it sucks on this album, but I'm gonna vote for EVERYWHERE because I LOVE CAROLINE!!! And P.S. I hate all of notastenicks who voted for it ;) And BTW, Little Lies is not as good as Isn't It Midnight. :cool:
AMber

[stefan]

Everywhere

[ontheEdgeof17]

I would like to submit that if you don't love Stevie over the top, you don't really love Stevie
AMber


Whoa. That's taking it a little far.

[amber]

Whoa. That's taking it a little far.
Sure, but Stevie IS over the top. That's her point. That's how her vocals have always been.
The more, the better, I say.
Amber

[face of glass]

I would like to submit that if you don't love Stevie over the top, you don't really love Stevie :shrug:
I agree partially. Often when she goes over-the-top I want to follow her, but there's times when it doesn't do it for me.
But that self-indulgence, communication directly from the psyche and the milking of the drama IS Stevie Nicks and 90% of her essence for me.
And talk about reigning someone in, Lindsey perpetrated some :distress: on this record.
This is what I do not agree with. If "Seven Wonders" is so 'haggard' vocalwise for some then why would Lindsey have taken the necessary edge away?
How about "WTTR...S" or "WISYA"? I don't think anything's been hidden in these two either, why would people complain about the rasp in the latter then?
I personally think that if you feel "she was holding back" it has to do with the change in her voice that was happening at the time. The tone started approaching colder (you can hear it already in the TITN tour video) and a lot of its disturbing power suddenly disappeared. You still hear it on TITN, not so much later on, but of course it improved closer to my liking at one point. ;)

[amber]

I agree partially. Often when she goes over-the-top I want to follow her, but there's times when it doesn't do it for me.
But that self-indulgence, communication directly from the psyche and the milking of the drama IS Stevie Nicks and 90% of her essence for me.

This is what I do not agree with. If "Seven Wonders" is so 'haggard' vocalwise for some then why would Lindsey have taken the necessary edge away?
How about "WTTR...S" or "WISYA"? I don't think anything's been hidden in these two either, why would people complain about the rasp in the latter then?
I personally think that if you feel "she was holding back" it has to do with the change in her voice that was happening at the time. The tone started approaching colder (you can hear it already in the TITN tour video) and a lot of its disturbing power suddenly disappeared. You still hear it on TITN, not so much later on, but of course it improved closer to my liking at one point. ;)
I don't understand what you mean when you say you do not agree with me saying that Lindsey had some sucky songs on this album. I mean, I understand what YOU'RE saying, but not so much how it relates to Lindsey's songs. I basically agree with what you're saying about Stevie's tone.
Amber

[face of glass]

I don't understand what you mean when you say you do not agree with me saying that Lindsey had some sucky songs on this album. I mean, I understand what YOU'RE saying, but not so much how it relates to Lindsey's songs. I basically agree with what you're saying about Stevie's tone.
Oh, sorry Amber. I thought you meant that Lindsey was hiding the rawness of Stevie's voice through his production (which I think he's never done, check out TISL if you want to see it in action).
IMO, nothing by Lindsey sucks on this album, nothing by anyone sucks on this album. ;) And I don't think Lindsey was trying to take Stevie over by having more songs in there. They just thought that some tracks weren't fit for the album and obviously were never totally satisfied with "Book Of Miracles" or "Joan Of Arc" (which should have been on the album instead of "WTTR...S"). [If someone wants to make a similar point for Tusk, Lindsey's nine tracks versus Stevie's five, then I should note that Stevie's songs take more running time than Lindsey's on the album.] Stevie didn't participate that much and that was because of the confusion in her life at that point.
Amber, let me just tell you, I may not always find your posts the easiest reading for me (must be our thought pattern differences or something) but you're still one of my favourite posters here. :xoxo: Public humiliation, I know. ;)

[amber]

Oh, sorry Amber. I thought you meant that Lindsey was hiding the rawness of Stevie's voice through his production (which I think he's never done, check out TISL if you want to see it in action).
IMO, nothing by Lindsey sucks on this album, nothing by anyone sucks on this album. ;) And I don't think Lindsey was trying to take Stevie over by having more songs in there. They just thought that some tracks weren't fit for the album and obviously were never totally satisfied with "Book Of Miracles" or "Joan Of Arc" (which should have been on the album instead of "WTTR...S"). [If someone wants to make a similar point for Tusk, Lindsey's nine tracks versus Stevie's five, then I should note that Stevie's songs take more running time than Lindsey's on the album.] Stevie didn't participate that much and that was because of the confusion in her life at that point.
Amber, let me just tell you, I may not always find your posts the easiest reading for me (must be our thought pattern differences or something) but you're still one of my favourite posters here. :xoxo: Public humiliation, I know. ;)
:laugh: :laugh: :xoxo:
Not at all. Aren't we from different countries? :)
Yeah, I don't think Lindsey had too many tracks or anything. I have TISL, I like about 4 songs a lot, the rest, meh. I'm glad you like all the songs on Tango. I just really don't like a few by Lindsey. Family Man, This version of Big Love...You and I 2...They're ok, though. But I loooove Caroline. and I do like WTTRS and WISYA more than most poeple. :shrug: But i fell in love with Stevie's voice quality at ages: 3 (GDW),then 8 (Stand Back), then 12 (Seven Wonders) without knowing who she was, what band she was with, or what she looked like. So I think I must especially love her voice quality :)
Actually, I've never really thought of the amount of songs each person has on the albums...Cause I generally like how everything turned out!
Much Love -
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

As usual, it comes down to this... Stevie often goes over the top, and Lindsey often goes over the top, and whose excesses you can forgive or justify easier, depends on which of the two you tend to prefer overall.
Even if you love both of them, there's always going to be a slight preference towards one more than the other.

'Tango' was the first Fleetwood Mac album I owned, and I was fascinated by the differing styles of each of the three leads. There were no "weak links" to me... each lyric, each vocal and each song, was an essential ingredient to what I felt (and still feel) was an amazing album.

Even the songs I've voted against, are favorites of mine. But since this is a "Survivor" game, you do have to vote for something, if you want to play along.

One can look back at it now... with 17 years' worth of hindsight... and see "excesses" and "haggard voices" and "over production"... but in 1987, it was absolutely brilliant to me.
Maybe it was because I didn't have any preconceived notions about what a Fleetwood Mac album "should" be, or any demands that I unreasonably expected them to live up to.
Even today, it stands as one of my favorite Mac albums. :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

But i fell in love with Stevie's voice quality at ages: 3 (GDW),then 8 (Stand Back), then 12 (Seven Wonders) without knowing who she was, what band she was with, or what she looked like. So I think I must especially love her voice quality :)

That's sort of what happened to me. When I heard "Talk To Me" on the radio in '85, I loved her voice and HAD to have her album.
'Rock A Little' sparked an intense desire in me, to hear everything she had ever released. So when I started going back through the older albums (with huge thanks to one of my aunts, who had most of them), I realized that I had already known and loved most of these songs. I even had memories associated with them! And, through it all, it had been Stevie's voice and songs that had always attracted my attention most.

So it was kind of kismet, I suppose, that she was to become my favorite singer/songwriter. :)

[dissention]

One can look back at it now... with 17 years' worth of hindsight... and see "excesses" and "haggard voices" and "over production"... but in 1987, it was absolutely brilliant to me.
Maybe it was because I didn't have any preconceived notions about what a Fleetwood Mac album "should" be, or any demands that I unreasonably expected them to live up to.
Even today, it stands as one of my favorite Mac albums. :nod:

I became a Mac fan with Tango and even at seven years old, I did not like Stevie's songs. :laugh: My favorites were Isn't It Midnight and Family Man, I was sooooooooooo fascinated by Family Man. I thought that Stevie just sounded "funny" on that album and never played her songs. Eventually, I had all of the Mac and solo albums and I loved her, but never her Tango material. :)

[Johnny Stew]

I became a Mac fan with Tango and even at seven years old.... I was sooooooooooo fascinated by Family Man.

Well, THAT explains a lot! :laugh: :laugh: ;)

[dissention]

Well, THAT explains a lot! :laugh: :laugh: ;)

Hey, Popeye with Robin Williams was one of my favorite movies at the time! ;) :laugh:

[Serrart]

Caroline better than Everywhere? :confused: Not in my world...

Caroline

Romy

[Johnny Stew]

I became a Mac fan with Tango and even at seven years old, I did not like Stevie's songs. Eventually, I had all of the Mac and solo albums and I loved her, but never her Tango material. :)

By the way, that says a lot, no?
First impressions DO count for something, and one doesn't usually fall in love with something they initially disliked/hated (well, ok, except maybe in the case of David & Maddy on 'Moonlighting,' but I'm not at all sure that that counts).

:)

[Johnny Stew]

Hey, Popeye with Robin Williams was one of my favorite movies at the time! ;) :laugh:

NOW we're getting somewhere! ;)

(I actually liked that movie, too. "Go to sleep, sweet, sweet-pea....")

[dissention]

By the way, that says a lot, no?
First impressions DO count for something, and one doesn't usually fall in love with something they initially disliked/hated (well, ok, except maybe in the case of David & Maddy on 'Moonlighting,' but I'm not at all sure that that counts).

:)

I fall in love with stuff I used to hate quite often. For example...






















Rock A Little. :shocked:

I still dislike a few songs INTENSELY, but I love the rest. I'll never budge on SA or her Tango stuff, it's remarkably awful. ;)

[dissention]

NOW we're getting somewhere! ;)

(I actually liked that movie, too. "Go to sleep, sweet, sweet-pea....")

I did, too. I love Shelley Duvall, especially that movie "3 Women" she made with Sissy Spacek. :nod:

[amber]

That's sort of what happened to me. When I heard "Talk To Me" on the radio in '85, I loved her voice and HAD to have her album.
'Rock A Little' sparked an intense desire in me, to hear everything she had ever released. So when I started going back through the older albums (with huge thanks to one of my aunts, who had most of them), I realized that I had already known and loved most of these songs. I even had memories associated with them! And, through it all, it had been Stevie's voice and songs that had always attracted my attention most.

So it was kind of kismet, I suppose, that she was to become my favorite singer/songwriter. :)
Isn't that weird and lovely? :nod: I love imagining my little three year old self walking around singing (as my mother told me I did) "did she make you cry, make you break down, shatter your illusions of looove...." :lol: Kismet, indeed.
With Tango, I only got the tape when I was 19 (1993). So the synth was pretty weird and cheesy to me at that time. I never got into any synth bands in the 80's anyway. But probably it woulda grown on me faster if i'd had it sooner. But i don't really love things in major key anyway...so who knows, I may never have like Family Man, or You and I part 2!
Love your story
AMber

[amber]

Caroline better than Everywhere? :confused: Not in my world...

Caroline

Romy
Sad world. Just kidding. I just like it better. I tend to not like Christine's stuff as much. I like stuff that rocks more, and is harder, with interesting percussion.
AMber

[Serrart]

Sad world. Just kidding. I just like it better. I tend to not like Christine's stuff as much. I like stuff that rocks more, and is harder, with interesting percussion.
AMber

I'm usually more into Stevie's songs but on TITN I find the deepness of Christine's lightness quite impressing. :)

Romy

[amber]

I'm usually more into Stevie's songs but on TITN I find the deepness of Christine's lightness quite impressing. :)

Romy
Actually, your right. I'm tied w/Isn't it Midnight/Caroline :)
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

I fall in love with stuff I used to hate quite often. For example... Rock A Little.

Well, see, there's hope for you yet. ;)

Actually, I've always felt that her 'Tango' songs were extensions of her 'Rock A Little' material, and that if you liked one, it's pretty much a given that you'd like the other.

Of course, you're always the lone dissenting voice in any theory. :p ;)

[dissention]

Well, see, there's hope for you yet. ;)

Actually, I've always felt that her 'Tango' songs were extensions of her 'Rock A Little' material, and that if you liked one, it's pretty much a given that you'd like the other.

Of course, you're always the lone dissenting voice in any theory. :p ;)

:laugh:

I don't see any extension between the two that isn't shared by all of her other material. Like I said, Seven Wonders is mediocre at best. The lyrics are bland and her voice isn't that great on it, IMO. WTTR...S is, and I know Gaius hates when people say it, a song that could only be interpreted and figured out by true fans. It simply plods along and becomes more and more incoherent along the way. And what can I say about WISYA that hasn't already been said? :lol:

[Johnny Stew]

Like I said, Seven Wonders is mediocre at best. The lyrics are bland and her voice isn't that great on it, IMO. WTTR...S is, and I know Gaius hates when people say it, a song that could only be interpreted and figured out by true fans. It simply plods along and becomes more and more incoherent along the way. And what can I say about WISYA that hasn't already been said? :lol:

"Seven Wonders" is a terrific song... great imagery in Sandy's lyrics, great vocals from Stevie (I love when she really lays into a song), and great production from Lindsey. You just love to hate Stevie on 'Tango,' period. :p

Again, I was a very new fan to Stevie when 'Tango' was released, so I knew little-to-nothing about her personal life. So of course I couldn't make heads or tails of "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but that was part of what I loved about it (and many of Stevie's songs, in general). It was so cryptic, that it made me WANT to know what it was about. To "read between her lines," and figure out what the message was.
I loved, loved, LOVED the fact that Stevie's songs weren't of the cut-and-dry, spell-out-the-message-for-you variety. I loved the intrigue, and, as I've said, her 'Tango' songs cemented my fandom forevermore.

So, yeah... if that makes them of the dreaded "esoteric" variety, then bring on the esoteria, dude! :D

[amber]

"Seven Wonders" is a terrific song... great imagery in Sandy's lyrics, great vocals from Stevie (I love when she really lays into a song), and great production from Lindsey. You just love to hate Stevie on 'Tango,' period. :p

Again, I was a very new fan to Stevie when 'Tango' was released, so I knew little-to-nothing about her personal life. So of course I couldn't make heads or tails of "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but that was part of what I loved about it (and many of Stevie's songs, in general). It was so cryptic, that it made me WANT to know what it was about. To "read between her lines," and figure out what the message was.
I loved, loved, LOVED the fact that Stevie's songs weren't of the cut-and-dry, spell-out-the-message-for-you variety. I loved the intrigue, and, as I've said, her 'Tango' songs cemented my fandom forevermore.

So, yeah... if that makes them of the dreaded "esoteric" variety, then bring on the esoteria, dude! :D
AMber
You crazy kids and your tango Stevie debate. I think we should just say that Dissention is wrong about Stevie, and leave it at that! :laugh:

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that Caroline has the most votes. Caroline please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
Caroline - 13
Everywhere - 10
Seven Wonders - 4
Big Love - 2
Isn't It Midnight - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Everywhere
Tango In The Night
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2
Welcome To The Room.. Sara - 8/3
You And I part II - 8/4
Mystified - 8/5
Caroline - 8/6

[77Rumours77]

BIG LOVE
Good bye! :nod:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Again, voting for Everywhere

[ryan8472]

Once again, Everywhere.

[SaraRhiannon]

Everywhere

[Hawkeye]

Everywhere

[tynan88]

Eveywhere...nowhere.

Tynan

[ontheEdgeof17]

EVERYWHERE

-Curt

[HomerMcvie]

I can't believe I'm voting off a Chris song, but,
Everywhere.

[Vianna]

<font face="Comic Sans Ms">Everywhere</font>

[golden braid]

Everywhere

[Wild_Heart03]

Tango In The Night

[Cristian]

Seven Wonders

I really like the other songs better.

[TISL]

so long Tango In The Night !!

[xdreamsunwindx]

I'm callin' out for Everywhere.

-Kate

[stefan]

Everywhere

[sparky]

Again, I was a very new fan to Stevie when 'Tango' was released, so I knew little-to-nothing about her personal life. So of course I couldn't make heads or tails of "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but that was part of what I loved about it (and many of Stevie's songs, in general). It was so cryptic, that it made me WANT to know what it was about. To "read between her lines," and figure out what the message was.


At this mention, I think of the Rolling Stone review of The Wild Heart. It quoted Stand Back's " No one knows how I feel, what I say unless you read between my lines", and then said pointedly, "WHO'S FAULT IS THAT ?"

At the time I has scandalized, horrified, and personally affronted. I had Stevie on such a pedestal, and hadn't scrutinized other songwriters and followed them enough to get any perspective on the evolution of an artist's body of work.

Now I completely agree. I know essentially what she was talking about in most of her songs. However, with Tango, she began her descent into absolute cryptic world, and the awful habit of third person self referential songwriting (WTTR....S, Juliet, and Alice being the first main culprits). To me, this created a distance between writer and listener and now I understand it as a self protective device born out of self consciousness. At the time, I thought it made her cool and mysterious and somehow special to me and very few other people. I believed I belonged to some special sort of club that could "figure out" her message and apply it to myself. Now I just find it annoying and limiting. The truly great songs in rock history, IMO, can be covered, and aren't so cloaked in personality and celebrity specific messages and imagery. I believe the record of which of her songs have been covered and have been successful bear out this theory.

Of course, I desperately love the woman and her art. I have been a fan for almost thirty years. Nonetheless, I think that Tango signaled a shift in her writing, and I don't think it has ever quite recovered. She began to take herself and her image too seriously, and it continues to color her writing to this day. There are exceptions - TISL and a few others - but overall, I think she writes from the POV of a famous, rich, somewhat martyred "star" - and for God's sake how many people can truly relate to THAT ? I know her history and can get it, but who, other than crazy fans, wants to work that hard ?

It's a drag and a loss to me. But I suppose that is her world, and she writes what she knows. I still think her best writing was done pre-1986 (or even 1980), before she was a phenomenon. Her consistent rifling through her vaults seems to indicate that I am not the only one who thinks that.

To get back to the topic of Tango - her two self written songs on the record are IMO two of the very worst examples of the type of songs that embody this trend in her post RAL writing. She talks about herself like she was a grand character in literature, and while it once made me feel she was exactly that, now it just feels self conscious, detached, and emotionally uninvolved.


BTW - My vote is for Everywhere.

[secondhandchain]

Originally Posted by amber
I would like to submit that if you don't love Stevie over the top, you don't really love Stevie
AMber
Let me clarify. What I meant was, over the top in the warbling. I don't mean letting go and belting it out. For example: There is a version of "Straight Back" where she let loose a little more. Love it. I just wasn't into the Tango period of Stevie vocalizing. If you think about it you will know what I mean. I felt when I heard "The Dance", that she had it back, in a big way. Another example is the Tango in the night Video. Completly over the top with the close up and the guaze on the lens. I watched that video once and could never look at it again. Sorry if I sound incoherent. I was out. It's Friday.
P.S. Example: Talk to me , "swelling tear" I used to hate that delivery and think "what are you doing Stevie"

[HomerMcvie]

with Tango, she began her descent into absolute cryptic world, and the awful habit of third person self referential songwriting (WTTR....S, Juliet, and Alice being the first main culprits). To me, this created a distance between writer and listener and now I understand it as a self protective device born out of self consciousness. At the time, I thought it made her cool and mysterious and somehow special to me and very few other people. I believed I belonged to some special sort of club that could "figure out" her message and apply it to myself. Now I just find it annoying and limiting. The truly great songs in rock history, IMO, can be covered, and aren't so cloaked in personality and celebrity specific messages and imagery.
That is the most astute assessment of Stevie's writing that I have ever read.
Bravo.

[sparky]

That is the most astute assessment of Stevie's writing that I have ever read.
Bravo.

Thanks, buddy. :wavey:

[Claudia]

I vote for 'Everywhere'...

[Tango]

Everywhere

[Bryan]

, I think she writes from the POV of a famous, rich, somewhat martyred "star" - and for God's sake how many people can truly relate to THAT ? .

She does,but that's what she IS!! I'm glad she's being honest and writing about her life.Who would want a fabricated love story from Stevie just for the sake of 'relating' to it? I know I wouldn't.

[Bryan]

I'm not voting in this round because i'm DISGUSTED at the amount of votes Everywhere has received already :distress:

[Hippocampus]

Big Love again

[face of glass]

Now I just find it annoying and limiting. The truly great songs in rock history, IMO, can be covered, and aren't so cloaked in personality and celebrity specific messages and imagery. I believe the record of which of her songs have been covered and have been successful bear out this theory.
:xoxo: While I agree with you on most of what you said Sparky, I'd also like to add that right here Johnny Stew or someone else would usually point out that since Stevie hasn't been in large scale public favour (through record sales and media coverage) for a long time, it's possible that her songs wouldn't interest other artists because of that.
No one could cover a Stevie Nicks song to the same effect as Stevie did in the first place, and no one could cover a Lindsey Buckingham song without changing the effect, because then you'd have to change the careful arrangements too. There ARE obvious exceptions, of course, but in general they're trapped inside their own limitations, even though they always make great use of that.
Lindsey isn't all that much without his arrangements, Stevie isn't all that much without her voice. The only person in the Rumours line-up whose songs could be covered on a regular basis is Christine McVie, IMO. I know Johnny Stew doesn't agree with this, but really, what effect does a Christine song lose when its covered by someone else, other than the precious rhythmic keyboards and the voice?
But then it could be said that Christine's never had as fanatic and passionate a following as Stevie and Lindsey because she never left that much of a unique stamp to her songs, other than her performances of course. That's something I wouldn't agree with. We shouldn't speak of a 'unique stamp' here, she just never was as excessive or as "ego-driven" as the other two.
There are exceptions - TISL and a few others - but overall, I think she writes from the POV of a famous, rich, somewhat martyred "star" - and for God's sake how many people can truly relate to THAT ? I know her history and can get it, but who, other than crazy fans, wants to work that hard ?
Esoterica reductica. This is similar to the point that I make when I start comparing things like "Family Man" to the Beach Boys' Love You album, that the song attempts for the same emotional effect as Brian Wilson did on that last BB album that he had the complete creative control of.
So what's the deal here? In order to 'get' every Stevie song you'd have to know details of her life and her personality? In order to 'get' every Lindsey song you'd have to know obscure pieces from rock history? What's the difference in this anyway?
Look at Johnny, for instance. He wasn't a fan when TITN came out yet "When I See You Again" was one of the things that made him a fan. Look at me, TITN was the second FM album I bought and "Family Man" never struck me as atrocious or emotionally distant, it was and still is a charming piece of music for me.
While it is true that fans are more often than not bound to have automatically a more rose-coloured view I do not think Lindsey and Stevie have gone totally to the artistic deep end. I think in general that the likes of "WISYA" and "Family Man" are more esoteric than many other pieces of their music. But that doesn't necessarily mean that one should be trained for them. It means that less people than usual can identify with them.
I think the question is emotional in the end; not every nuance or emotion that they squeeze out can be identified with. And that is a human trait if any.

[face of glass]

Easy to go with the majority. "Everywhere".

[Patti]

Finally...it looks like Everywhere is going to go. And it gets my vote again.

[BellaDonna98]

Everywhere.

[GypsySorcerer]

Everywhere.

[jwd]

Since it looks like Everywhere is going to get the boot this time, I'm going on to my next pick, and giving BIG LOVE a BIG SHOVE. :)

[Nightbird_Brett]

I also can't believe the amount of votes Everywhere is getting, Bryan! I vote off Tango In The Night---which will probably be my vote for the next round because I love the others too much.

[Serrart]

I know essentially what she was talking about in most of her songs. However, with Tango, she began her descent into absolute cryptic world, and the awful habit of third person self referential songwriting (WTTR....S, Juliet, and Alice being the first main culprits). To me, this created a distance between writer and listener and now I understand it as a self protective device born out of self consciousness. At the time, I thought it made her cool and mysterious and somehow special to me and very few other people. I believed I belonged to some special sort of club that could "figure out" her message and apply it to myself. Now I just find it annoying and limiting. The truly great songs in rock history, IMO, can be covered, and aren't so cloaked in personality and celebrity specific messages and imagery. I believe the record of which of her songs have been covered and have been successful bear out this theory.

Of course, I desperately love the woman and her art. I have been a fan for almost thirty years. Nonetheless, I think that Tango signaled a shift in her writing, and I don't think it has ever quite recovered. She began to take herself and her image too seriously, and it continues to color her writing to this day. There are exceptions - TISL and a few others - but overall, I think she writes from the POV of a famous, rich, somewhat martyred "star" - and for God's sake how many people can truly relate to THAT ? I know her history and can get it, but who, other than crazy fans, wants to work that hard ?

It's a drag and a loss to me. But I suppose that is her world, and she writes what she knows. I still think her best writing was done pre-1986 (or even 1980), before she was a phenomenon. Her consistent rifling through her vaults seems to indicate that I am not the only one who thinks that.

To get back to the topic of Tango - her two self written songs on the record are IMO two of the very worst examples of the type of songs that embody this trend in her post RAL writing. She talks about herself like she was a grand character in literature, and while it once made me feel she was exactly that, now it just feels self conscious, detached, and emotionally uninvolved.

How different things can be... At the end of last year, just by chance I've listened to Say You Will, and it totally conquered me. I loved the sound, the production, but mostly, Stevie's songs, so much that I've decided to buy all Fleetwood Mac and Stevie CD's/ videos I could find (yes, now I'm broke of course, but very happy:thumbsup: ). Anyway, many times I don't know what she's talking about, I can't say to have much in common with her lifestyle (obviously), but I've developed in few months with her music an incredibly deep connection. My strongest passion is cinema and her imagery and poetry strike in me the same inner chords of my favorite directors.

Returning to TITN Sourvivor game, I can't vote on this round, I'm already mourning for Everywhere... :distress:

Romy

[Mari]

Seven Wonders.

[shackin'up]

little lies

[face of glass]

little lies
Gerald, could I have some deep-probing analysis on why you think "Little Lies" is the ultimate housewives' song instead of "Everywhere"? ;)

[Johnny Stew]

At this mention, I think of the Rolling Stone review of The Wild Heart. It quoted Stand Back's " No one knows how I feel, what I say unless you read between my lines", and then said pointedly, "WHO'S FAULT IS THAT ?"

At the time I has scandalized, horrified, and personally affronted. I had Stevie on such a pedestal, and hadn't scrutinized other songwriters and followed them enough to get any perspective on the evolution of an artist's body of work.

Now I completely agree. I know essentially what she was talking about in most of her songs. However, with Tango, she began her descent into absolute cryptic world, and the awful habit of third person self referential songwriting (WTTR....S, Juliet, and Alice being the first main culprits). To me, this created a distance between writer and listener and now I understand it as a self protective device born out of self consciousness. At the time, I thought it made her cool and mysterious and somehow special to me and very few other people. I believed I belonged to some special sort of club that could "figure out" her message and apply it to myself. Now I just find it annoying and limiting. The truly great songs in rock history, IMO, can be covered, and aren't so cloaked in personality and celebrity specific messages and imagery. I believe the record of which of her songs have been covered and have been successful bear out this theory.

Of course, I desperately love the woman and her art. I have been a fan for almost thirty years. Nonetheless, I think that Tango signaled a shift in her writing, and I don't think it has ever quite recovered. She began to take herself and her image too seriously, and it continues to color her writing to this day. There are exceptions - TISL and a few others - but overall, I think she writes from the POV of a famous, rich, somewhat martyred "star" - and for God's sake how many people can truly relate to THAT ? I know her history and can get it, but who, other than crazy fans, wants to work that hard ?

It's a drag and a loss to me. But I suppose that is her world, and she writes what she knows. I still think her best writing was done pre-1986 (or even 1980), before she was a phenomenon. Her consistent rifling through her vaults seems to indicate that I am not the only one who thinks that.

To get back to the topic of Tango - her two self written songs on the record are IMO two of the very worst examples of the type of songs that embody this trend in her post RAL writing. She talks about herself like she was a grand character in literature, and while it once made me feel she was exactly that, now it just feels self conscious, detached, and emotionally uninvolved.

I don't disagree with anything you said, however I'm someone... perhaps of a very rare few... who prefer songs that are "uncoverable."
I look at something like "Yesterday," and as terrific as that song is, it just seems so terribly devalued to me now, because EVERYONE has recorded it.

Same thing is happening with "Landslide."

For me, that damages the connection with the original songwriter, and the personal meaning starts to become lost.

From the very first Stevie album that I owned (and I should note again, before I had ANY knowledge of what Stevie was like, or knew anything about her life), to this day, my favorite songs are always the ones that are blanketed in mystery. The enigmatic, scratch-your-head-and-wonder-what-the-heck-she's-talking-about, songs.
The ones that no one else is the world could ever cover, because the songs are so extremely tied to Stevie.

I also like the fact that she writes about what she knows.
She doesn't try to write a song about the rainforest or Walden Woods... she writes about her life.
No, people won't always (if ever) be able to relate to that, but it feels more REAL and honest to me.
In my eyes, the few major missteps Stevie has made, are when she tries to sing about something outside of her realm... like laundromats.

It's ok that there are things that others dislike about Stevie or her writing. That doesn't bother me. Heck, I was looked at as if I had three heads when I first started getting into her at 13/14 years old, and my friends all thought I was completely nuts... so I'm used to it.
I just never get why anyone who does like Stevie, would want her to be something other than what she is. There are so many other songwriters who do a wonderful job of writing universal, straight-forward songs (Christine McVie for example)... but that's not Stevie.
I love her songs not out of loyalty or because I know so much about her life, I love them for the qualities that drew me to her songwriting in the first place. It's what makes her unique to me, and so much more appealing... in my eyes... than anyone else. :)

[amber]

Well, It's gonna be hard to vote, since I can't listen to the album anymore, cause Caroline is not on it :mad: I'm pouting as we speak! :laugh:
AAAAAAHHHHHH!
YOU KILLED CAROLINE!
YOU BASTARDS!!!!!

*sniff*

Ok, I vote for Big Love There's no big love left on the album anyway, with Caroline gone..... :p
Amber

[Johnny Stew]

The only person in the Rumours line-up whose songs could be covered on a regular basis is Christine McVie, IMO. I know Johnny Stew doesn't agree with this, but really, what effect does a Christine song lose when its covered by someone else, other than the precious rhythmic keyboards and the voice?

That's not really true, Gaius. I think I understand why some of the things I've said, have lead you to come to that conclusion... but it's an incorrect conclusion. ;)

I wholeheartedly agree that Lindsey & Stevie's material rarely lends itself to "coverability" (which can be also considered "universality"), and that Christine's songs are far more likely to be covered.

For me, relatability IS a different thing from being universal. Which is why thousands of people can find great appeal in a particular song, but it will still never be loved across the board.

I related to the emotions Stevie conveyed in her songs, before I had any knowledge of her back-story. So it was never "I like it because Stevie wrote it," I liked it for what it was.

And, because of that, I DO tend to think that one can find things to relate to, even in Stevie's most esoteric writings... but that you have to care enough. If you just want to be entertained on a basic level, then you're probably not going to have much use for Stevie Nicks. Her songs require more of an emotional investment, in my opinion.

Maybe it's my personality... I don't usually have a passive enjoyment for things. Or an enjoyment for things that can only be taken passively.
I'm always more attracted to songs, movies, books, and art in general, that require more of an emotional investment.

But anyway, I'm just trying to say that it's not that I think Lindsey & Stevie's songs can necessarily be easily covered by anyone...it's just that, I feel their music CAN be appreciated by anyone who cares enough to make the investment. :)

While it is true that fans are more often than not bound to have automatically a more rose-coloured view I do not think Lindsey and Stevie have gone totally to the artistic deep end. I think in general that the likes of "WISYA" and "Family Man" are more esoteric than many other pieces of their music. But that doesn't necessarily mean that one should be trained for them. It means that less people than usual can identify with them.
I think the question is emotional in the end; not every nuance or emotion that they squeeze out can be identified with. And that is a human trait if any.

This I couldn't possibly agree with more. :nod: :)

[amber]

I related to the emotions Stevie conveyed in her songs, before I had any knowledge of her back-story. So it was never "I like it because Stevie wrote it," I liked it for what it was.

Me, too. Heck, I couldn't even understand some of the words, and I loved it. Because of just the music and her voice. But also it's weird to me how people talk about that they don't know what she's talking about. To me, her words are so emotionally evocative, and and her imagery so universal (lots of nature in it) that I easily enjoyed just the straight visceral emotional impact of the actual words. I dunno, it's like i always understood what it was like to feel whatever way she felt. Plus, her voice often sounds like she was about to cry or start screaming, which is pure emotional impact as well. I never hardly tried to figure out what it meant from HER life, i just soaked up the emotional content and applied it to MY brain, emotions, state of mind. I dunno, maybe being a Cancer it's easier to do this, but...

And, because of that, I DO tend to think that one can find things to relate to, even in Stevie's most esoteric writings... but that you have to care enough. If you just want to be entertained on a basic level, then you're probably not going to have much use for Stevie Nicks. Her songs require more of an emotional investment, in my opinion.

Regarding this point - hmmmnn - I didn't know her songs required more work and were an emotional investment. I guess i can kind of see your point. But to me, they ARE emotion, and require hardly any thought to soak up the immediate visceral/emotional impact of them...I feel pretty entertained on a basic level - in fact, the most basic level. Of course i realize there is more complexity there, much more - but to me it's the second layer, and the first layer easily grabs people.
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

I never hardly tried to figure out what it meant from HER life, i just soaked up the emotional content and applied it to MY brain, emotions, state of mind.

That sentence definitely applies to me as well. I don't usually get into all of the, "she wrote this one for Lindsey" or "she wrote this one about breaking up with Don Henley" stuff, or "this one is about her stay in Betty Ford."
I have some thoughts along those lines, based on what I know NOW of her life-story... but my "first, initial feeling" is always still to apply it to my life and my own experiences. The way I did when I first started really getting into her.
I am, 9 times out of 10, always very amazed at the way in which her songs can easily be applied to my life, in SOME way or another.


Regarding this point - hmmmnn - I didn't know her songs required more work and were an emotional investment. I guess i can kind of see your point. But to me, they ARE emotion, and require hardly any thought to soak up the immediate visceral/emotional impact of them...I feel pretty entertained on a basic level - in fact, the most basic level. Of course i realize there is more complexity there, much more - but to me it's the second layer, and the first layer easily grabs people.
AMber

Don't get me wrong... I don't think it's the ONLY way someone can enjoy Stevie's songs. Obviously there are songs like "Dreams," "Landslide," "Silver Springs," "Edge Of Seventeen," "Stand Back," "Rooms On Fire," etc., that people got into in a major way... but I think for those who are looking to delve a little deeper into her oeuvré than a "greatest hits" compilation, they have to be willing to make more of an emotional investment.

It's the same with Lindsey. Most everyone can enjoy "Go Your Own Way," or "Big Love," or "Trouble," but it takes more of an investment to enjoy... to that same degree... something like "Play In The Rain" or "D.W. Suite."

[amber]

Don't get me wrong... I don't think it's the ONLY way someone can enjoy Stevie's songs. Obviously there are songs like "Dreams," "Landslide," "Silver Springs," "Edge Of Seventeen," "Stand Back," "Rooms On Fire," etc., that people got into in a major way... but I think for those who are looking to delve a little deeper into her oeuvré than a "greatest hits" compilation, they have to be willing to make more of an emotional investment.

It's the same with Lindsey. Most everyone can enjoy "Go Your Own Way," or "Big Love," or "Trouble," but it takes more of an investment to enjoy... to that same degree... something like "Play In The Rain" or "D.W. Suite."
Ahh, excellent point - and you are right. In my forays outside (and even inside some) greatest hits, the songs have usually taken a bit longer to grow on me than usual. Great job as usual, JS! :wavey:
AMber

[shackin'up]

Gerald, could I have some deep-probing analysis on why you think "Little Lies" is the ultimate housewives' song instead of "Everywhere"? ;)

Little Lies just irons better.

[sparky]

I don't disagree with anything you said, however I'm someone... perhaps of a very rare few... who prefer songs that are "uncoverable."

I don't prefer one over the other. In no way do I take anything away from Stevie's songs that no one else could sing. I just believe that the true great songwriters of this century - Willie Nelson, the Broadway writers, the Motown writers, Arlo Guthrie, Dolly Parton, Lennon and McCartney, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, etc - have written many songs that anyone can sing. That is why they are generally regarded as "great". They wrote what became standards and can be moving in other's interpretations. My contention is that Stevie set out to be regarded as one of these writers and the change in her songwriting style thwarted her ambition in this area.


Same thing is happening with "Landslide."

I don't think the covers of this song take a bit away from the original or the power of the song. In fact, it is one of the things many of us crow about. "Look at all the people who cover her songs - she's a legendary and influential writer !"

From the very first Stevie album that I owned (and I should note again, before I had ANY knowledge of what Stevie was like, or knew anything about her life), to this day, my favorite songs are always the ones that are blanketed in mystery. The enigmatic, scratch-your-head-and-wonder-what-the-heck-she's-talking-about, songs.
The ones that no one else is the world could ever cover, because the songs are so extremely tied to Stevie.

I agree that this makes her songs unique, and is one of her trademarks. The downside is that it limits her appeal, and the majority of people actually don't get her more recent work. That's fine, I love some of those arcane, mysterious things too. But it limits the appeal of the art. For someone who has so often wanted to be known as a "writer", I think that she has shot herself in the foot and doesn't even know it.

I also like the fact that she writes about what she knows.

I don't mind it. It can be seen as honest, revealing, and vulnerable. But one person's honest is another's navel gazing. To point out one recent example...How many people really care that Tom Petty wouldn't write a song with her ? It made great copy in People magazine as an anecdote, but made a pretty tedious song. Especially considering that she went ahead and had someone else write the music for it :laugh:


She doesn't try to write a song about the rainforest or Walden Woods... she writes about her life.

I submit "Jane", "Beauty and The Beast", "Rhiannon", "RTTG". "Jane" was a disaster. "RTTG" was effective, and the other two were brilliant. Why ? IMO, because she stuck to the story and didn't alter the POV to be more about her than the subject of the song.


No, people won't always (if ever) be able to relate to that, but it feels more REAL and honest to me.

More power to you !

In my eyes, the few major missteps Stevie has made, are when she tries to sing about something outside of her realm... like laundromats.

I think we all agree that was a Klonopin moment.



I just never get why anyone who does like Stevie, would want her to be something other than what she is. There are so many other songwriters who do a wonderful job of writing universal, straight-forward songs (Christine McVie for example)... but that's not Stevie.

I don't want her to be something other than what she is. I just wish she still was writing songs as well as she did in the period before TITN. She was able to balance the mystery and imagery with clarity in her early work - Dreams, GDW, Landslide, Beautiful Child, even Goodbye Baby. IMO, she rarely achieves it any more, for reasons I outlined in my other post. For the record, I am not gloating about it. I am not happy about it at all.

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that Caroline has the most votes. Caroline please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.

Tonights Recap
Everywhere - 19
Seven Wonders - 3
Big Love - 2
Tango In The Night - 2
Little Lies - 1

Remaning Contestants
Big Love
Seven Wonders
Tango In The Night
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2
Welcome To The Room.. Sara - 8/3
You And I part II - 8/4
Mystified - 8/5
Caroline - 8/6
Everywhere - 8/7

[77Rumours77]

I am gonna go with Big Love till it is gone, I am hoping it will be this round.

[Vianna]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="5" color="navy">Big Love!</font>

[Wild_Heart03]

I still vote for Tango In The Night.

[xdreamsunwindx]

As much as I hate to do this...

Seven Wonders. :(

-Kate

[rezamatic]

Now that I know all of the songs left (never got this album) I will actually begin to play and go with my sorry-but-anti-Stevie-as-usual tendency and vote "Seven Wonders" off.

[DownOnRodeo]

I vote off Isn't It Midnight. And tell me... isn't it midnight, on the other side of the world? It's 2pm here in Japan.

And 77Rumours77... one of the guys in my apartment building here is from Wichita. Isn't that weird??? :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

I just believe that the true great songwriters of this century - Willie Nelson, the Broadway writers, the Motown writers, Arlo Guthrie, Dolly Parton, Lennon and McCartney, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, etc - have written many songs that anyone can sing. That is why they are generally regarded as "great". They wrote what became standards and can be moving in other's interpretations. My contention is that Stevie set out to be regarded as one of these writers and the change in her songwriting style thwarted her ambition in this area.

I don't think the covers of this song take a bit away from the original or the power of the song. In fact, it is one of the things many of us crow about. "Look at all the people who cover her songs - she's a legendary and influential writer!"

I see your points. I honestly do. There's certainly nothing wrong with what you're saying, or anything that I disagree with, per se.
I guess I'm just not someone who's impressed if 95 other artists have recorded "Yesterday," or if 57 other artists have covered "Knockin' On Heaven's Door," etc.

Like I said, for me, it just tends to devalue the song if anyone and their mother could pick up a microphone and record their own version. But that's just me. :)
I'm a snob when it comes to cover tunes, and I'd much rather no one attempted to recorded one of Stevie's tunes or those of anyone else in the band. I mean, yes, there are certainly a couple of cool covers out there, but for the most part, covers just make me cringe.






I submit "Jane", "Beauty and The Beast", "Rhiannon", "RTTG". "Jane" was a disaster. "RTTG" was effective, and the other two were brilliant. Why ? IMO, because she stuck to the story and didn't alter the POV to be more about her than the subject of the song.

But see, sparky, I've always felt that every one of those songs worked (some to a lesser degree) because Stevie took material from an outside source, and related that to her life and her experiences.
"Beauty And The Beast," for example, is just as likely to be about her and a former paramour, as it is to be about the classic fairytale itself.
Same with "Running Through The Garden"... ostensibly she's relating the tale from Hawthorne's story, but it just as easily could be interpreted as Stevie commenting on the "poisonous" lifestyle she's lead, and how it kills the spirit of any man who tries to get involved with her.

So I don't see those songs as Stevie "writing outside of her realm," because, again, she has taken the outside source material, filtered it through her own life, and then reinterpreted it.
She's not singing about a "cause" or an environmental issue, or something like that.

I know others don't, but I honestly like the evolution in Stevie's writing over the years. I like the tone it's taken on, and the different ways in which she expresses herself now.
It's different from how she did it 25 years ago, certainly, but in many ways it appeals to me far more. But I can see where you, and others, are coming from, and why you feel the way you do.

You're not wrong and I'm not right... it's just personal preference. :)

[HomerMcvie]

BIG Love.....

[Patti]

Seven Wonders

[Hippocampus]

Well it's a big Big Love (that I'm voting off)

[Bryan]

I'm voting Big Love

[Tango]

BIG LOVE

running out of options

[Mari]

Once again: Seven Wonders.

[GateandGarden]

I think "Tango in the Night" should go.

Hillary

[Claudia]

I vote for 'Big Love'...

[GypsySorcerer]

Seven Wonders.

[dissention]

Seven Wonders.

I won't make a path back.

[golden braid]

I'm going with Big Love since I prefer the acoustic version.

[SaraRhiannon]

Voting off Big Love.

[TISL]

Tangoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo In The Night

[Nightbird_Brett]

I vote off Big Love.

[jwd]

BIG LOVE gets another BIG SHOVE!

[sodascouts]

It's the same with Lindsey. Most everyone can enjoy "Go Your Own Way," or "Big Love," or "Trouble," but it takes more of an investment to enjoy... to that same degree... something like "Play In The Rain" or "D.W. Suite."

Well-put, JS.

[sodascouts]

I once again vote for Isn't It Midnight, although I see my vote was not listed in the last round's recap! :confused:

[ryan8472]

Big Love should go this time.

[stefan]

Seven wonders- und ab dafür (=bon voyage) :laugh:

[BellaDonna98]

Going with Tango In The Night.

[littlelies7]

Sorry I'm late...

I vote Big Love.

[ShamHy89]

Seven Wonders.

Shamus

[ontheEdgeof17]

Get back to your House on the Hill, BIG LOVE.


-Curt

[amber]

Lookin' out for looooove....Oh, wait, it's GONE! :laugh:
Goodbye Big Love

[GardenStateGirlie]

Do you remember...the face of a pretty girrlllll thefaceofaprettygirllll.....

Isn't It Midnight gets my vote. Yes, I like the song but i'm thinking strategically here.

[Cristian]

Seven Wonders, this time.

[Serrart]

Tango In The Night

Romy

[77Rumours77]

Tonight is Tribal Counsel. And the vote show that Big Love has the most votes. CBig Love please leave the tribal counsel area at once. All other head back to camp.


Tonights Recap
Big Love - 13
Seven Wonders - 9
Tango In The Night - 5
Isn't It Mid Night - 3

Remaning Contestants
Seven Wonders
Tango In The Night
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight

Voted Off
When I See You Again - 8/1
Family Man - 8/2
Welcome To The Room.. Sara - 8/3
You And I part II - 8/4
Mystified - 8/5
Caroline - 8/6
Everywhere - 8/7
Big Love - 8/8

[77Rumours77]

I am gonna go with....
Isnt It Midnight

[sodascouts]

Once again, I must say, isn't it time to get rid of
Isn't It Midnight!

[xdreamsunwindx]

Seven Wonders.

-Kate

[Bryan]

Tango In The Night

[golden braid]

Isn't it MIDNIGHT