The doc!!!

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I find your constant assumptions rather distracting. Do you really think Lindsey called Stevie and asked for particular songs or did she just dump in the studio whatever she felt they could work with?

And it's been documented enough that a lot Stevie's songs were rejected from FM projects over the years. It's OK. Not the end of the world.

if you are in a band with three writers and you each get 3 or 4 songs each,, when you are a writer who constantly writes as does stevie.. do you think she just hands over 4 songs when they are ready to go into the studio, no im sure they all bring in many songs. and chose the best 12 that compliment each other as a whole. now are these the songs you consider to be rejects? they all have rejects then.... but i look at it as songs that had no place on a particular cd, not that there isnt a place for them on another fm cd or solo.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I find your constant assumptions rather distracting. Do you really think Lindsey called Stevie and asked for particular songs or did she just dump in the studio whatever she felt they could work with?

And it's been documented enough that a lot Stevie's songs were rejected from FM projects over the years. It's OK. Not the end of the world.

i never stated he asked for certain songs. i was responding to a post that suggested they were prior fm rejects, so i said if lindsey was in fact the one who had pulled them from previous records. why then would he work on them for this cd and put them on the record, meaning if stevie just dumped them on him,,,,,, why did they end up on recorded on syw,....go back and read what i responded to if you dont get it...... thats it.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
That's it! I challenge you to a duel!

Of course it's mostly opinion. I won't bore you with dissecting the songs musically again, but like it or not, Lindsey is ahead there too.

Look, which Fleetwood Mac song was picked by the Smithsonian (or whatever it was) as one of the 300 songs of the century? Gee, it wasn't the only No. 1 song. It wasn't Gypsy or Sara.

It was Go Your Own Way. As well it should be.

thats still the opinion of someone else. and the timing, if it was voted in,, not all ppl vote , thats a good comparison to you going to see lindsey and being the only one there, you d still argue its better than stevie, just for the sake of argueing.. im sure if the smithsonian had picked a stevie fm song, you would then say oh that doesnt mean anything......

[Miranda]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I'm not quite sure what the point of all this was, but I think most of us know the obvious: 1) Stevie is a bigger draw than Lindsey when they are solo. 2) Stevie and Lindsey together is the biggest draw of all. The latter does not make the former any less true, despite all the rhetorical circles we dance around in. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality, although many people are quick to utilize the good old hypothetical scenario when reality isn't working for them.

Lindsey is so underappreciated. What he's done for Rhiannon and Gypsy, to name two "classic" examples, really took them to another level that they would never have acheived without him. However, immediately assuming that this is/would be true for anything Stevie ever did is unfair. Would Lindsey himself even make that claim? I doubt it - I don't think he's full of himself.

I will continue to be brutally honest and say that within Fleetwood Mac, it is apparent that Lindsey helps out Stevie on her songs much more than vice versa. On the other hand, Stevie can and has thrived without Lindsey - again, the truth of one doesn't cancel out the truth of the other.

What gets me is why people will try to minimize or even obliterate the contributions of one member in order to build up the other. It's something that's been happening around here for a long time, and it always saddens me. We all have our opinion as to who's "better" (except me, I love them both the same lol) but why must we tear down the one who comes in second?

A timeless question that will never be answered! lol

Great post, Nancy!

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
your the one who state d these songs on say you will, were rejects from previous fm records (if it was dissention, my apologies) then someone stated are you sure it was stevie who pulled the songs, meaning it was lindsey, so i stated why would he end up puttin them back on this cd , if infact he was the one who had previously rejected them.. i think you missed the original post i responded to and just quoted my reply.. oh well you know what i dont really care,.

I had nothing to do with it, doll. I didn't even partake in the conversation.

[jwd]

TISL tour:

07/11.....Cincinnati, OH.....supported by Sheryl Crow, Jeffrey Gaines
7,380 of 20,500 (36%).....$292,887

I'm not sure how pollstar arrives at its numbers, but there were 12,000 people at the concert in Cincinnati that night. And I don't think Riverbend can even hold over 20,000 people. Anyway, I was there, and it'd be very safe to say that it definitely was WAY over half full. :)


Joe

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
I had nothing to do with it, doll. I didn't even partake in the conversation.
my apologies, either way

[Miranda]

Wasn't this thread about the documentary? Look how far it's traveled in just a week!

Time for me to move on. My head is spinning and I'm losing foucs. :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by jwd
I'm not sure how pollstar arrives at its numbers, but there were 12,000 people at the concert in Cincinnati that night. And I don't think Riverbend can even hold over 20,000 people. Anyway, I was there, and it'd be very safe to say that it definitely was WAY over half full. :)


Joe

They get their numbers right from the venue and box offices.

[jwd]

dissention:

They get their numbers right from the venue and box offices.


Well, somezing is wrong wid those numbers.


Joe

[HomerMcvie]

The music is still great, and the other musicians are still just as talented as they always are, but the presence of that one certain frontperson with the recognizable name, sweetens the deal and makes the concert tickets that much more desirable
So if we could just talk Chris out of retirement...........

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
A song that makes me feel something emotionally, is always going to win out in my book.

As much as it pains me to agree, you're on to something there.

And who knows exactly why the Smithsonian picked "Go Your Own Way" over any number of other Mac songs, but I thought we agreed a while back that critical approval only means so much, given that it's just another opinion, much like our own.
"GYOW" isn't even the best example of all that Lindsey has to offer.

Well, this isn't mere critical approval. These songs were selected by people who aren't mere critics. And that makes a difference.

Lindsey has done better stuff than Go Your Own Way, but, man, that song has stood the test of time and it never gets tired.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Talk about snooty. :p :laugh:

I feel that my tastes have evolved too... which is why I'm more keenly aware now of what it is that makes Stevie's music so amazing, than I ever was. :D

As Jason would say, "Touche."

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Oh, I can't even begin to describe how much I adore "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind"!

That's one of those songs that just envelopes you with its beauty.

Most assuredly it's one of Lindsey's finest moments. :nod:

This is getting ridiculous! I agree with you again. What's the world coming to? :)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
the thing here is you want to convince those who dont feel the same as you, and people cant be convinced of something they dont believe. this is like beating a dead horse, just accept the fact that all people will not agree with you .... im not trying to convince you of anything , just trying to let you know what im basing things on and what i like but if you want to cast a negative one way , thats the way it is cause you said so additude, it wont help.

I have yet to try to convince you of anything. I most likely would never have felt the need to even address you if you hadn't addressed me first. My goal is not "convince" you of anything. It's not that important to me. I find your insistence in coming back at me with convoluted opinions mostly based on assumptions amusing, is all. Frankly, I have a hard time following some of what you say, as in the second half of the example above.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
so now your gonna fault stevie for not wanting to agree to lose money, but we are suppose to phrase lindsey for doing just that ... this is crazy, do you go to work everyday and not care if your paycheck is there or not, i dont think so....

Are we going to have to do this again? Quote me back the words I used to fault Stevie for not wanting to lose money. You know, we could do this forever. But I suggest you actually read what I write. You might even get the meaning of what I'm saying.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
to rephrase then why didnt he release this body of work as a solo, if he was so eager to get it out there, if he had worked his but off for years, if it were the record company saying hey lindsey it would sell better as a fm cd, well than if they were still interested in him ,then why did he decide to use the fm vehicle to sell his product, instead of rely on his own name.. he didnt have to agree with the company, as you say, they never rejected his material.... so then why did he just say hey im releasing it as a solo....if he didnt care about losing money, then he should of went solo.... one could even say it looks like lindsey sold out and used fm to get his work out there, he even stated himself when he said i want ed a doulbe cd for my own personal reasons to benefit.. so he could get more of his songs out there..... but you have to admit if this is what he does for a living... and like you stated he new he was gonnalos money on his club tour , that is not such a smart move especially not to ask fm members to do the same, lose money. this whole thing about money and commercial and non commercial crap is all bull,, there in the business cause they love what they do , they try to reach a paying audience to make money, otherwise to make record and lose money, makes no sense. so he doesnt care for commercial success, maybe thats why he hasnt had much with his solo career.....

Weeeewwwhh... Dude, you really need to take a deep breath and read what you are posting before you click "submit reply." You've stopped making sense. I'll address what I italicized above:

I don't have to admit anything.

Whaaaaat!!!??

Crap is bull? Excellent, that's a new one.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
i never stated he asked for certain songs.

Your own words, dude:

well if you mean the lindsey pulled them, then why on earth would he be asking for those rejects back for this cd?

Did you ever get the feeling you're outmatched? Because, frankly, this is ridiculous. You accuse me of saying things I didn't say, then you deny you said things that you did say. Perhaps you should quit.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
im sure if the smithsonian had picked a stevie fm song, you would then say oh that doesnt mean anything......

Yeah, you're sure? How can you be sure? You don't even remember what you said three posts back, how can you be sure of what I'm going to say?

[Alison]

Man guys lighten-up. This thread has become a real drag.
It doesn't really matter who's music is better, who used what songs from long ago, ect.
What matters is we are people who love the music of Fleetwood Mac, and they bring us much joy into your lives. This fighting is not worth it in the end. Some of you people have to prove your point tell the death. Give it up allready.

[strandinthewind]

AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

"Lord Have Mercy on ma soul" (said with syrup like Southern accent) :laugh:

I leave you people for two days and all hell breaks loose :laugh:

Good points made by all. But, in the end, I know those concert numbers of Stevie's shows are not an accurate depiction of the shows I attended - they are not even close. I know this for a fact because some of those shows were sold out and no tickets could be bought - I was there I tried :shrug:

I think someone has some explaining to do to the IRS :laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Are we going to have to do this again? Quote me back the words I used to fault Stevie for not wanting to lose money. You know, we could do this forever. But I suggest you actually read what I write. You might even get the meaning of what I'm saying.

you stated, "lindsey lost money, can you imagine stevie agreeing to lose money"

carne ,,its the way you say it, that you are implying a negative twist. so every time you ask me to quote you, you may have not said you fault stevie in those EXACT words , but you implied it , meaning, can you imagine stevie... and im sure you will say its not what you meant, and if it wasnt , why even say it.

if you are asking it as a simple question, no i dont see stevie agreeing to go on the road to lose money, that makes no sense what so ever. she isnt at the point where she has to make sacrifices to get her music out there, she isnt a new upcoming artist, not that i am saying lindsey is, she has paid her dues and doesnt need to lose anything. if lindsey chose to do that knowing he would lose money then thats his mistake .

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by CarneVaca


It just isn't. Lindsey's music is far superior in SYW. Generally it has been better, but this time the quality between the two writers was galaxies apart. Stevie submitted two killer songs and a bunch of ho-hum cuts. Lindsey submitted positively wonderful music, with exception of Come.
[b]



That's a matter of opinion. I think Stevie's stuff is better on SYW, Lindsey's stuff is really good too, of course. It is all opinions. So don't act like any idiot can tell Lindsey's stuff is better. I am sure there are a lot of people on this board that would disagree.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Look, which Fleetwood Mac song was picked by the Smithsonian (or whatever it was) as one of the 300 songs of the century? Gee, it wasn't the only No. 1 song. It wasn't Gypsy or Sara.

It was Go Your Own Way. As well it should be.

What the hell does that have to do with the quality of Lindsey's SYW songs?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
What the hell does that have to do with the quality of Lindsey's SYW songs?

That wasn't even the conversation. :confused:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Your own words, dude:

[b]

Did you ever get the feeling you're outmatched? Because, frankly, this is ridiculous. You accuse me of saying things I didn't say, then you deny you said things that you did say. Perhaps you should quit.
as


as you would say go back and see the post i was replying to,, i was referring to what was previously suggested. it was suggested that stevie was the one who pulled the songs, then someone else suggested, are you sure it was stevie who pulled them,? (suggesting it was lindsey who rejected them) so i stated, then why would lindsey if he was the one who rejected them why would he bother on syw to record those same songs...in other words if stevie just left these demos for lindsey to go thru, and he had previously rejected them , why would he go to the bother of recording and mixing them? because he was not the one who rejected ? i suggest you go back and re read as well, sometimes you have to read they post and the reply, you have picked out responses and not quoted the original post.

as for meeting my match,,, i dont think so,,,,as for me stating things and then later denying them , not me,,,, look at you ,,, you make implications, and then ask to be quoted , :where did i say that:,,, well implications that represent a negative light, usually imply just that a negative suggestion, because if it were positive , there would be no need to imply it in that manner,,,,,,.

maybe you met your match and you should quit,,,

well anyway im not arguing here, and im only responding to you , when you require an answer, just like you stated to me earlier. if you dont want to respond anymore , thats fine, but i will respond where i see fit....

but again, i need to rest, therefore i must be tired!!!

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
As much as it pains me to agree, you're on to something there.

[b]

Well, this isn't mere critical approval. These songs were selected by people who aren't mere critics. And that makes a difference.

Lindsey has done better stuff than Go Your Own Way, but, man, that song has stood the test of time and it never gets tired.

"these songs were selected by people who arent mere critics, and that makes a difference, ?

Still its just a matter of "their" opinion. as for gyow, never getting tired. altho i love that song, im sure some on this list will have a difference of opinion about that. some even stating that they remove it from the set list.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Yeah, you're sure? How can you be sure? You don't even remember what you said three posts back, how can you be sure of what I'm going to say?



because you are predictible.


like i stated before, go back and read the original posts that i have responded to , then you will understand whyi said what i said in the post.

[face of glass]

Since I can’t sleep:

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Good points made by all. But, in the end, I know those concert numbers of Stevie's shows are not an accurate depiction of the shows I attended - they are not even close. I know this for a fact because some of those shows were sold out and no tickets could be bought - I was there I tried :shrug:

That’s what I’m interested in. Is the eventual number counted out of ticket stubs or something else? If it’s the stubs then it’s very interesting as of why some of the shows would be sold out and then a lot of people wouldn’t attend them anyway. Do they give that much tickets to various companies and then no one working there is interested in going? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? When will you stop criticizing Lindsey because of his tortured artist pretentiousness? Does the sun revolve around the moon or not? To be or not to be? ;)

My basic point here is that although Stevie is the biggest single draw in the band on her own, her solo tours seem to be considered secondary for many. That explains the low attendance of the Enchanted tour because it was done very quickly after the Dance. TISL had higher attendance but that was because FM hadn’t been out there for a while and there was no guarantee that they’d tour anymore.

‘S all just in my twisted mind. ;)

[David]

Originally posted by face of glass
That’s what I’m interested in. Is the eventual number counted out of ticket stubs or something else? If it’s the stubs then it’s very interesting as of why some of the shows would be sold out and then a lot of people wouldn’t attend them anyway. Do they give that much tickets to various companies and then no Pollstar's gotta be reliable just in terms of basic data, unless there's a clerk somewhere tampering with the stats. (Maybe it happened in Florida.)

But there is an occasional inaccuracy in the Pollstar information, like saying Glenn Frey opened for Fleetwood Mac in Los Angeles. That was Dave Mason & Jim Crapulent. Also, many of the concert appearances themselves are missing from those Pollstar pages.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
you stated, "lindsey lost money, can you imagine stevie agreeing to lose money"

What I actually said: "As I recall, he lost money on that tour. Imagine Stevie actually agreeing to lose money on a tour." And you can twist that statement however you like, but it still won't make it a negative statement.

if you are asking it as a simple question, no i dont see stevie agreeing to go on the road to lose money, that makes no sense what so ever.

You are the arbiter of what makes sense now? Perhaps I should quote back to you some of the run-on nonsensical stuff you keep posting.

if lindsey chose to do that knowing he would lose money then thats his mistake .

Why is it a mistake? He chose to do a small-club tour with a large band. He knew what he was doing. He most likely knew that it would break even at best.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
So don't act like any idiot can tell Lindsey's stuff is better. I am sure there are a lot of people on this board that would disagree.

I most certainly don't act like any idiot can tell Lindsey's stuff is better. I'm sure a lot of idiots can't.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
What the hell does that have to do with the quality of Lindsey's SYW songs?

Was there a rule that I was only supposed to refer to SYW songs on this thread? I must have missed it.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
as you would say go back and see the post i was replying to,, i was referring to what was previously suggested.

I don't think I need to go back and re-read anything. You asked why Lindsey "asked" for certain songs, then after I responded, you said you never said he "asked" for songs. You're wrong, and I proved it. That's the end of this particular story.

As for this:

it was suggested that stevie was the one who pulled the songs, then someone else suggested, are you sure it was stevie who pulled them,? (suggesting it was lindsey who rejected them) so i stated, then why would lindsey if he was the one who rejected them why would he bother on syw to record those same songs...in other words if stevie just left these demos for lindsey to go thru, and he had previously rejected them , why would he go to the bother of recording and mixing them? because he was not the one who rejected ? i suggest you go back and re read as well, sometimes you have to read they post and the reply, you have picked out responses and not quoted the original post.

You lost me again.

as for meeting my match,,, i dont think so

You're quite right. What I suggested was you're outmatched. Go back and read it. You just proved it again.


,,,,as for me stating things and then later denying them , not me,,,, look at you ,,, you make implications, and then ask to be quoted , :where did i say that:,,, well implications that represent a negative light, usually imply just that a negative suggestion, because if it were positive , there would be no need to imply it in that manner,,,,,,.

What are the repetitive commas supposed to represent? This is a new one to me.

maybe you met your match and you should quit,,,

Wishing don't make it so (imperfect grammar intended).

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee

Still its just a matter of "their" opinion. as for gyow, never getting tired. altho i love that song, im sure some on this list will have a difference of opinion about that. some even stating that they remove it from the set list.

Some who on what list? Did I miss something here?

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't think I need to go back and re-read anything. You asked why Lindsey "asked" for certain songs, then after I responded, you said you never said he "asked" for songs. You're wrong, and I proved it. That's the end of this particular story.

As for this:

[b]

You lost me again.

[b]

You're quite right. What I suggested was you're outmatched. Go back and read it. You just proved it again.


[b]

What are the repetitive commas supposed to represent? This is a new one to me.

[b]

Wishing don't make it so (imperfect grammar intended).


yes you do need to go back and re read the post.. to see what it was in reference to


this is a chat board , not an english class or a typing class,
please, get a grip. since you are so above us , why do you even bother then... you are too funny, ill give you that, but like i said before you are so predictible and now its become boring. i think we should chat about the band now dont you. are you through yet.,,,,,,?

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
That wasn't even the conversation. :confused:

Oh sorry diss ;) , I misunderstood.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't think I need to go back and re-read anything. You asked why Lindsey "asked" for certain songs, then after I responded, you said you never said he "asked" for songs. You're wrong, and I proved it. That's the end of this particular story.

As for this:

[b]

You lost me again.

[b]

You're quite right. What I suggested was you're outmatched. Go back and read it. You just proved it again.


[b]

What are the repetitive commas supposed to represent? This is a new one to me.

[b]

Wishing don't make it so (imperfect grammar intended).



its a running trend with you, everytime you fail to answer a ???? (question) you make a big deal to bring up grammar, yeah keep taking the convo (conversation) off of the band.

this really is a waste of my time,,,,,,

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Some who on what list? Did I miss something here?



yeah keep up!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee

this really is a waste of my time,,,,,,

Problem is, you're wasting my time too.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
yeah keep up!

Wish I could, but as I mentioned, I can't follow half of what you post. And it's not because I can't read.

[David]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Wishing don't make it so (imperfect grammar intended). Nothing to worry about. That's a perfectly valid rhetorical device known as alleotheta, & it's used for specific effect by -- virtually all of us.

And don't she know it!

[DownOnRodeo]

David - that's an impressive grammatical term to know! Maybe you can help me out with something that's bugged me for aeons ... I was once told by my Yr 7 teacher the word that describes the action of using the feminine pronoun for non-living objects like boats, cars, ships, nations etc. Do you know what that the term is??

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Problem is, you're wasting my time too. I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but in all honesty, I don't know how you even manage to find the time to reply to all of these posts... being a new dad and all.
I know that when my little cousins are visiting here, I barely have time to even look at the computer!

But even though it's a lot of work, I'd really love to be a father someday... though I've learned not to mention that on first dates anymore! :lol:
Well, not unless I purposely want to get rid of the guy! :laugh:

How's your daughter doing? She has to be getting so big already. :nod:

Anyway, enough gushing about parenthood & children... back to whatever this thread is about! *lol*

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Problem is, you're wasting my time too.


Ahhh, no one is holding a gun to your head here,

therefore if you feel your time is be wasted, you are the one wasting your own time.

[DownOnRodeo]

Let's start placing bets on who will drop out first. JS, will you be bookie? ;)

[shackin'up]

I'll bet teedee.

carne isn't stubborn enough;) :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but in all honesty, I don't know how you even manage to find the time to reply to all of these posts... being a new dad and all.
I know that when my little cousins are visiting here, I barely have time to even look at the computer!

You know, Johnny, I was thinking the same thing myself the other day. I guess I go through these bursts of crazy posting, then rest for a while.

Little Caroline, however, gets my full attention when she's awake (and thankfully she's a great sleeper). I've gotten her interested in percussion (what baby isn't?) and hopefully she'll want to play guitar eventually (but I won't be one of those parents -- only if she wants to).

But even though it's a lot of work, I'd really love to be a father someday... though I've learned not to mention that on first dates anymore! :lol:
Well, not unless I purposely want to get rid of the guy! :laugh:

Hmmm... it's a lot of work, but it isn't as crazy as most people will tell you. Leading up to fatherhood, people kept telling me I'd be suffering from sleep deprivation, I'd never get time to myself, etc., etc. Mostly nonsense. Mostly it's a very joyful rewarding experience and I hope you get to enjoy it someday.

How's daughter doing? She has to be getting so big already. :nod:

Indeed. She even has hair now! Thanks for asking.

Anyway, enough gushing about parenthood & children... back to whatever this thread is about! *lol*

Let's not. It had grown quite teedious, even for me... :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by shackin'up
I'll bet teedee.

carne isn't stubborn enough;) :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh:

Just because I like you, Gerald, I'm going to give you this one. Pay up, Joe.

Blame it on Johnny for cleverly steering the thread in a direction that made me feel all warm inside. Took the fight right out of me.





..... but it will return. :laugh: :eek:

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
:laugh: :laugh:

Just because I like you, Gerald, I'm going to give you this one. Pay up, Joe.
.... but it will return. :laugh: :eek:

so i hope you are going to give me some more:laugh:

gerald