The doc!!!

[t.c.]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
[BPersonally, I can never get enough new material, so 18 tracks was just great for me, and 23 would have been even better. But I also realize that not everyone is as willing to spend all their hard-earned money on Fleetwood Mac CDs, as I am. :) [/B]

Me too - I can never get enough. A thought just popped into my head. They should release one cd, then have a "volume II - Outtakes" also available. That'd be cool! All die-hard fans would buy it, and if they released a single from it and promoted it at the concerts, more would sell also (a video wouldn't hurt). Ahhh...wishful thinking. But I am so glad they had 18 songs on it. The more the merrier!:D

[skcin]

Originally posted by skcin
Could anyone make out what else was posted in the setlist? I tried to pause, but it was too blurry & writing too small. I did see Destiny (Rules), EFO, Illume, Monday Morning, but that's about it as far as differences go.


Watched it again last night - saw that Red Rover was on the list too.

Paula

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
My sense is that she was digging her heels stubbornly because she didn't want to concede to her former lover.

Lindsey was right to point out the flaw but he was wrong in the solution. The better solution would have been to turn the whole song into first and second person. As for the verb tense, "fell for her" and "now you're going home," actually makes sense to me because it shows a time continuum.

You're right, but perhaps Lindsey suggested the third person solution to refocus the song into generalities, and away from the blatant personal implications of a first person song written to her former lover. ;)

"Maybe now you could prove to me, that you would be good for me - that we should be together." Awkward for Lindsey, eh? lol so the begging for forgiveness, the pleading for reunion, is given to the third person, and the goodbyes are in the form of direct addresses.

Of course, third person also eliminates the problematic "you" signifier shift, from "You" - Lindsey to "You" - herself.

"Now you're going home.... you can sit outside his door and wait"
Ahhh, Stevie! lol

Poetic license. ;)

[CarneVaca]

I see your point, Nancy. Do you think of someone else, not Lindsey, had made the suggestion that she might have reconsidered?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I see your point, Nancy. Do you think of someone else, not Lindsey, had made the suggestion that she might have reconsidered? Well, I'm not Nancy (for which I'm sure she's thanking her lucky stars! *lol*), but I think that's a very good possibility, Carne... still, it's hard to say.

Obviously she's changed lyrics here and there, from the demos to the finished versions.
Some good examples of that, would be "you never showed me about the fire," turning into "you never told me about the fire," in "Sara," or "pick up the pieces and move on," becoming "pick up the pieces and go home," in "Gold Dust Woman," or a far more recent example... "it occurs to me that destiny rules," becoming "it appears to me that destiny rules."

But then, those are all relatively minor changes, and could also merely be examples of studio ad-libs, and not pre-meditated lyrical changes.

My feeling is that, if Stevie herself decides to change something, it's one thing... but if Lindsey tells her "this might sound better if...," then it might not be greeted with a lot of enthusiasm.

As a side note: I know that she was disappointed when John Shanks wanted to remove several of the verses from "Fall From Grace," because he felt the song was too long... but then they ended up compromising on it, and just removed some of the lines.
So obviously she is willing to make some changes for the betterment of a song (even if she initially balks at the idea), but maybe it's a case of choosing your battles, and deciding what material is worth fighting to keep, and what can be compromised on. :)

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I see your point, Nancy. Do you think of someone else, not Lindsey, had made the suggestion that she might have reconsidered?

Hmmmm......

It doesn't seem likely that Stevie would change for anyone, lol, but her vehement "I'm talking to YOU" implies that she was NOT going to allow him to shift it away from himself, and that's decidedly personal..... I could go either way on that one. Let's just say the fact that it was Lindsey couldn't have helped, lol.

But Stevie likes to put Lindsey in his place regarding her lyrics! lol She has to assert herself somewhere. Lindsey is in control of so many other things. I've always thought that Stevie, feeling inadequate musically as the only one who didn't play an instrument, fell back on her "poetry" as her untouchable domain. Lindsey apparently agrees, because he also has said Stevie's writing is her strong suit and not his. I would argue that is not always the case.... but that's another topic.

[CarneVaca]

Yet, she did change a whole verse in Thrown Down, from the WOS version to the album cut. What happened?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Yet, she did change a whole verse in Thrown Down, from the WOS version to the album cut. What happened? Very good question.

My guess is that she was inspired to write another verse either out of a desire to update the story in the song, or possibly because she felt the song needed something more in order to be complete.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by joe



I think the pic that you guys are referring to as "Waddy" is NOT Waddy after all. I noticed that pic too. I'm almost positive that it is in fact a B/N concert pic of Stevie and Lindsey. I won't be able to post it cause i don't have it but i've see it around. Stevie had long straight hair parted in the middle, and is at her mic which is close to Lindsey.

It also makes sense that she would have this pic next to her. Why would she have a pic of Waddy and her? I mean it's possible but not logical.
Def looks like Waddy to me! Look at the screen shots at buckinghamnicks.net. No way is that LB's hair!

Pip

[wondergirl9847]

Buck's hair goes UP....Waddy's goes DOWN. :laugh:

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
Def looks like Waddy to me! Look at the screen shots at buckinghamnicks.net. No way is that LB's hair!

Pip

Lindsey live, back in the days of BN (prepare to be unimpressed. He had not yet reached his full sexy hair potential).

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/bn/images/SnLBTWRS3.jpg

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/bn/images/SnLBuckNicksConcert1.jpg

Compare to the photo in question:

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/sn/images/SNicksDR07.JPG

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
My guess is that she was inspired to write another verse either out of a desire to update the story in the song, or possibly because she felt the song needed something more in order to be complete.

I agree. Probably came up with this verse in Phoenix along with her "Phoenix four." Lindsey, on the other hand, did not feel the need to write anything specifically for the Fleetwood Mac project, relying on material that was a few years old (in the case of "Say Goodbye", 15 years old). He also seems to have developed a fondness for covers - "Love Minus Zero/No Limit", "I Am Waiting", "Try for the Sun", to name a few. I do realize he probably did not intend to release the rest of his Stone covers; that would be ridiculous. Still, it's interesting he developed them so fully in "demo" form, and we know "I Am Waiting" at least was worked on for SYW. In addition, he has taken to using co-writers in songs like "What's the World Coming To" and "Come". I'm very glad to hear his songs and love them, but in the past some have criticized Stevie for raiding the vaults, doing covers, and using cowriters, and it's interesting to see it in Lindsey.

Sheesh, I am a busy little poster today, aren't I? But it's spring break, lol.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Compare the line "Now you're going home" to "Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin," and tell me which one is poetry.

Stevie has written some wonderful poetic lines, but for her to defend "Now you're going home" as beautiful poetry makes me question if she understands what poetry is. My sense is that she was digging her heels stubbornly because she didn't want to concede to her former lover.

Lindsey was right to point out the flaw but he was wrong in the solution. The better solution would have been to turn the whole song into first and second person. As for the verb tense, "fell for her" and "now you're going home," actually makes sense to me because it shows a time continuum.



"Digging her heels in stubbornly because she didnt want to concede to her former lover" ? oh please. this is one line , . for God sakes. look i think stevie realizes just what a poet is. the line of n ow youre going home was a line that lindsey picked out, when stevie said its the poet that i am, thats how I Write, she was stating this is how i feel the song and it sounds beautiful,, you have to admit the flow of the song goes better the way stevie wrote it. as far as not wanting to concede to her former lover, is crap, she listened to him and just disagreed and let him state his thoughts and then afterwards said ok. meaning its ok. they didnt argue. and if you watch the doc. again when they were discussing mixin the songs, it was stevie who agreed after they met both men to go with lindseys guy to mix the songs. i dont know why or how you see her as being stubborn. the fact that she didnt want to change her lines is her right. and as far as quoting other poets, when you read half their words, half of it doesnt make sense in english, now i know you will say that im not an english professor like you or that im not smart enough to understand it, but stop reading everything like its a paper that you are grading. what you like others may not and vice versa, you say tomato i say ...... etc... blah blah blah can we let this go now, thank you yawn

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I see your point, Nancy. Do you think of someone else, not Lindsey, had made the suggestion that she might have reconsidered?


it wouldnt make a difference who asked her to change it , if she feels strongly about something she wants to keep it that way, remember when talking to mick she said i love my songs and all the words, stevie then says i admit that, then she went on to say if my words come back to me and it doesnt make me feel the way it made me feel when i was writing about it at the piano by myself,then i dont care abou t the song anymore,,,also why are you calling her stubborn, its not like any of her songs have never been changed in fleetwood mac. look at it this way... this is a song, telling a story, just because you know it was written by her about lindsey look at it as a woman telling a story about anyone , stop hounding on the he's, she's her's its and buts. if this clip was never viewed, none of you would of ever even brought these lyrics up on your own. and please don t say that you would of because this cd has been out far too long without anyone mentioning it.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I'm very glad to hear his songs and love them, but in the past some have criticized Stevie for raiding the vaults, doing covers, and using cowriters, and it's interesting to see it in Lindsey.


Very different situation though, Nancy. Lindsey used the songs he'd been trying to release for years. He didn't just go in the vaults looking for stuff.

Furthermore, he's always done covers, going back to the white album days.

You know, it would be cool if he put all his Stones songs together with some of the other covers and released a coves album.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
you have to admit the flow of the song goes better the way stevie wrote it.

I don't admit that at all. I've always criticized this song, even though I like it. I've always said it should have been in the first and second persons. And though that's not quite what Lindsey was suggesting, he was thinking along the same lines.

as far as not wanting to concede to her former lover, is crap,

How do you know it's crap. She called you to tell you?

i dont know why or how you see her as being stubborn.

Well don't worry about it. I've never known anyone who starts a sentence with "I don't know how you" was ever really open to what the other person had to say, so let's just leave at that and move on. The world will keep on turning.

when you read half their words, half of it doesnt make sense in english, now i know you will say that im not an english professor like you or that im not smart enough to understand it, but stop reading everything like its a paper that you are grading. what you like others may not and vice

Boy, you sure have a lot of opinions, don't you? Opinions are better when they're not based on assumptions. I'm not a college professor nor do you know what I am going to say, so stop acting like you can predict my moves. If half the words of whatever poets you're thinking don't make sense "in English," can you extend them the same courtesy that you do Stevie when you say she can just justify herself with, "That's how I Write?" And yes, if you don't think the poetry makes sense, most likely it's because you're not getting. Don't worry, a lot of people don't.

[CarneVaca]

It's true what they say: The eye sees what it wants to see.

also why are you calling her stubborn,

That's simple: Because I think she's stubborn.

look at it this way... this is a song, telling a story, just because you know it was written by her about lindsey look at it as a woman telling a story about anyone , stop hounding on the he's, she's her's its and buts.

What!? Do you want to rephrase that in a way that makes sense so I can answer it?


if this clip was never viewed, none of you would of ever even brought these lyrics up on your own. and please don t say that you would of because this cd has been out far too long without anyone mentioning it.

There you go again telling me what I'm going to say. You must have psychic powers.

[diamondsnake]

Everybody take a deep breath!:woohoo:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't admit that at all. I've always criticized this song, even though I like it. I've always said it should have been in the first and second persons. And though that's not quite what Lindsey was suggesting, he was thinking along the same lines.

[b]

How do you know it's crap. She called you to tell you?

[b]

Well don't worry about it. I've never known anyone who starts a sentence with "I don't know how you" was ever really open to what the other person had to say, so let's just leave at that and move on. The world will keep on turning.

[b]

Boy, you sure have a lot of opinions, don't you? Opinions are better when they're not based on assumptions. I'm not a college professor nor do you know what I am going to say, so stop acting like you can predict my moves. If half the words of whatever poets you're thinking don't make sense "in English," can you extend them the same courtesy that you do Stevie when you say she can just justify herself with, "That's how I Write?" And yes, if you don't think the poetry makes sense, most likely it's because you're not getting. Don't worry, a lot of people don't.


So its ok for lindsey to go back and release songs that were intended to for a solo cd, but no t ok for stevie to go into her vaults as you so put it > why. stevie has tons of more songs written than lindsey, what is the problem with taking a son g she wrote and wanting to have it see the light of day, this i dont understand, its her song, its her group, do all her songs have to have the year 2002 on them. thats crazy,


"how do i know its crap, did she call you" no , but its obvious lindsey called you tho.

so your opinions are opinions, and my opinions are based on assumptions, hmmm you must of had an interesting convo with lindsey on the phone huh lol.

Can i extend a poet the same courtesy i give stevie, absolutely, thats why i stated it, but why cant you extend it to stevie as well.

you stated i predict what you are going to say , and then said when infact i dont know what you are going to say, but i do dont i , you r post stated just that.

as for an english professor, ok i know you are not a professor , but you stated earlier with a debate you had , that the english language was your specialty or something along those lines. as for you stating you always picked on thrown down, well id have to go and look back, but saying in the past that ppl thought it was a weak song or boring, is not what im talking about, first person, third person, who really cares... its a story, just cause you know she wrote it about lindsey,, think of it as a writer telling a story, about someone. and not so much about her speaking to lindsey . ok now can we move on? oh im having a prediction that cant. lol.... peace...

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
It's true what they say: The eye sees what it wants to see.

[b]

That's simple: Because I think she's stubborn.

[b]

What!? Do you want to rephrase that in a way that makes sense so I can answer it?


[b]

There you go again telling me what I'm going to say. You must have psychic powers.






ok i will rephrase it for you... stevie said on tv that TD was about lindsey,,,,, if she never stated that, i dont think the issue of who she was talking to, be it, lindsey or someone else, would be such an issue.

also if lindsey always did covers. and stevie does a cover here and there, how is he justified by it and she is criticized for it. yet, if she goes into her vaults of songs , from songs she wrote, people criticize her for doing so , when in fact they are her songs.. i thought stevie made it clear on the doc, that she had wanted some new songs for this cd so she wrote 4 new ones. also she was on tour for her new at the time TISL cd, see lindsey had his songs already practically done for his solo that never happened , but that he had been working on for years. i dont see the problem if a song was written years ago and makes it on a cd today, im glad it made it out of the vault.. please extend the same courtesy to stevie as you do to lindsey/and dont say its diferent cause he only had one really old song blah blah blah. stevie just has tons of more material. whats she suppose to do not care about those songs just cause they are old,, i thought i twas great that she wanted to add new songs to this cd instead of songs that she gathered ,but the reason she had to gather them is also cause she was on a solo tour and probably wasnt thinking that a cd by fleetwoodmac was going to come around, although i know she had wanted it to happen eventually. before you ask me how i know that, well , she s stated it in interviews and even mick stated it about her.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
So its ok for lindsey to go back and release songs that were intended to for a solo cd, but no t ok for stevie to go into her vaults as you so put it > why.

Why don't you quote back to me an instance in which I said that? Go ahead, find the post in which I said it's not OK for Stevie to release songs that were intended for a solo CD. If you weren't talking out of your ass, you might even know that whenever I've complained about Stevie's choices of songs for FM in the past I said that she kept the better songs for her solo records.

I have no problem with Stevie using songs she might have intended for a solo record in a Fleetwood Mac CD. And in fact, I complained when Lindsey decided to use his solo songs for Fleetwood Mac because, frankly, I thought Stevie would drag down the quality of the record. Seeing the results, I stand by that.

what is the problem with taking a son g she wrote and wanting to have it see the light of day, this i dont understand, its her song, its her group, do all her songs have to have the year 2002 on them. thats crazy,

Again, show me where I said anything even remotely approaching that.

so your opinions are opinions, and my opinions are based on assumptions .

Considering I've already pointed out twice in this post that you are responding to me to things I've never said, I think I've made the case that you are basing your opinions on assumptions. It must get dark in there, no?

you stated i predict what you are going to say , and then said when infact i dont know what you are going to say, but i do dont i , you r post stated just that.

I'll respond to that when you translate it to understandable English.

as for an english professor, ok i know you are not a professor , but you stated earlier with a debate you had , that the english language was your specialty or something along those lines.

You're not strong on interpretation, are you?

first person, third person, who really cares...

Evidently you do. A lot.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
ok i will rephrase it for you... stevie said on tv that TD was about lindsey,,,,, if she never stated that, i dont think the issue of who she was talking to, be it, lindsey or someone else, would be such an issue.

When have I raised the fact that the song is about Lindsey as an issue? Please quote me the post. I could care less who the song is about.

also if lindsey always did covers. and stevie does a cover here and there, how is he justified by it and she is criticized for it.

You've seen me criticize Stevie for doing covers? Let's see the quote. Because, man, I know I'm getting older, but I don't remember EVER picking on Stevie for doing covers. I love covers. I think often when an artist covers someone else's song, they bring new life and freshness to something you're used to hearing in a different way. It can be quite wonderful, actually.

yet, if she goes into her vaults of songs , from songs she wrote, people criticize her for doing so , when in fact they are her songs..

Dude, this is becoming a broken record here. When did I criticize her for it?

i dont see the problem if a song was written years ago and makes it on a cd today, im glad it made it out of the vault..

Deja vu all over again.

please extend the same courtesy to stevie as you do to lindsey/and dont say its diferent

It is different. And I will continue to say it. It is different. Very different. Completely different situation.

whats she suppose to do not care about those songs just cause they are old,, i thought i twas great that she wanted to add new songs to this cd instead of songs that she gathered ,

Really? I didn't get that from the six previous times you said this.

Before you ask me how i know that, well , she s stated it in interviews and even mick stated it about her.

Don't get psychic on me now.

[wildangel]

I usually just lurk but after reading the statement by carne about stevie bringing lindsey songs down I had to reply
As a longtime lurker I am used to carne's usual lindsey blowjobbing but this is a just ridiculous. All she did was put BG vocals on a few of his tracks. They don't sound much different. After hearing her demos on the doc. and loving the demo versions of Smile at You and Running Through the Garden I would say that you ( that is I, YOU, ME, HE, SHE pick your person and tense;) ) could make a case that lindsey brought stevies songs down :eek: :rolleyes:

[CarneVaca]

Quoth wildangel:

I usually just lurk but after reading the statement by carne about stevie bringing lindsey songs down I had to reply

Firstly, let me humbly accept the credit for inspiring you to post finally. Muse is not a role I had fulfilled before. We need as many passionate posters as we can get.

Secondly, re-read what I said:

And in fact, I complained when Lindsey decided to use his solo songs for Fleetwood Mac because, frankly, I thought Stevie would drag down the quality of the record. Seeing the results, I stand by that.

"I thought Stevie would drag down the quality of the record," meaning the whole CD. I see how the statement was somewhat ambiguous, but I wasn't referring to Stevie ruining Lindsey's songs. I don't think that's what happened, though I admit Peacekeeper was a lot better before it was re-recorded with her vocals.

[BBALLGYPSY17]

I adore Stevie, you can ask anybody at this board, HOWEVER...I would have to say the quality was slightly botched on some of Lindsey's songs. I've learned to define the difference between loyalty and quality, and if one is truly loyal they'll give credit where credit is due. Listening to the pre-released Lindsey versions and then to the new cuts I wouldn't call her new vocals un-welcome as much as, well,... out of place.
Artistic integrity shouldn't be compromised as to define a so-obviously Lindsey track, a 'Fleetwood Mac' track with the simple addition of Stevie vocals, to be quite honest it wasn't cohesive enough for me.

[Bella Figura]

welcome back Alexis!!! :wavey:

so Angel, too, has been cancelled!!! The Buffyverse is coming to a close. How's your writing going? I have been writing some fanfics but I'm holding off until the last epsode to complete them.

Carne...darling...you're up at bat waiting for strike 3!!! let teedee out of the sharks jaws...she doesn't understand your posts...and I'm getting very confused :laugh:

btw, did Marty ever rescind your previous strikes??

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Bella Figura
btw, did Marty ever rescind your previous strikes??

Oh, you are very bad... very bad indeed. :laugh:

[BBALLGYPSY17]

Originally posted by Bella Figura
welcome back Alexis!!! :wavey:

so Angel, too, has been cancelled!!! The Buffyverse is coming to a close. I have been writing some fanfics but I'm holding off until the last epsode to complete them.

Carne...darling...you're up at bat waiting for strike 3!!!

let teedee out of the sharks jaws...she doesn't understand your posts...;)

Thanks for the Welcome hun... I've been writing too, I'll PM ya....:D

And LOL... Take it easy on Carne. He's a brilliant poster with a different take is all and he creates dialogue. :laugh: Which is what I like to do, just about other subjects ;) Besides, I've grown up a lot, got a wider perspective. Her added vocals are 'shotty' at best sometimes in comparison to the first version of the song...IMHO.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by BBALLGYPSY17
Take it easy on Carne. He's a brilliant poster with a different take is all and he creates dialogue. :laugh:

:xoxo: Why, thank you! Deep down I am really an :angel:

;)

[Bella Figura]

Carne, that is the sweetest thing you've ever said to me!!! :)

Alexis, I'm bustin' on Carne and he knows it. I always read his posts with interest...

don't grow up too much!!! however, you are now an adult, maybe you can beta some of my stuff...

[BBALLGYPSY17]

Originally posted by Bella Figura
Carne, that is the sweetest thing you've ever said to me!!! :)

Alexis, I'm bustin' on Carne and he knows it. I always read his posts with interest...

don't grow up too much!!! however, you are now an adult, maybe you can beta some of my stuff...

LOL... I know:p

Check your Pm;)

[wondergirl9847]

Firstly, let me humbly accept the credit for inspiring you to post finally. Muse is not a role I had fulfilled before.

WHY can I not have wit like Carne?! :laugh:

This thread rules.

That is all. :)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
WHY can I not have wit like Carne?! :laugh:

This thread rules.

That is all. :)

You have enthusiasm and cheerfulness. And that's pretty cool.

[David]

Originally posted by wildangel
After hearing her demos on the doc. and loving the demo versions of Smile at You and Running Through the Garden I would say that you ( that is I, YOU, ME, HE, SHE pick your person and tense;) ) could make a case that lindsey brought stevies songs down :eek: :rolleyes: Those two particularly are rather disheartening. Not sure what happened there -- why the dearth of musical ideas? Those two cuts are blandly retro.

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
My feeling is that, if Stevie herself decides to change something, it's one thing... but if Lindsey tells her "this might sound better if...," then it might not be greeted with a lot of enthusiasm. I agree. Personally, I think that all four of them in that documentary were mostly walking on eggshells around one another, John least of all. But none of them appeared to be speaking his mind completely & honestly for fear of offending another or pissing off another.

[Bella Figura]

Dave, I can agree with you on Running through the Garden, it's one of my favorite demos but I got bored with the final version rather quickly. But I think Smile at You came out great, not wow, just great. :laugh: It retains it's angry passion in the music and updated lyrics. It also has one of the most up-to-date sounds which very few other songs on the record have... (carne, is that grammatically correct?? :laugh: )

and with Lindsey's vocals the song morphs into perfection...

[ShangriLaTroubl]

RTTG is still my fav. Stevie song on Say You Will, I guess it's all about personal preference..

Chris

[David]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Lindsey, on the other hand, did not feel the need to write anything specifically for the Fleetwood Mac project, relying on material that was a few years old (in the case of "Say Goodbye", 15 years old). He also seems to have developed a fondness for covers - "Love Minus Zero/No Limit", "I Am Waiting", "Try for the Sun", to name a few. I do realize he probably did not intend to release the rest of his Stone covers; that would be ridiculous. Still, it's interesting he developed them so fully in "demo" form, and we know "I Am Waiting" at least was worked on for SYW. At one point, around late 2001, he did plan on releasing several of those Stones covers, like "Gotta Get Away," as part of 'Gift of Screws.' A lot of those just weren't demos -- I know they're widely considered demos, but they were fully mixed studio tracks that were submitted in 2001 as his solo album.

I personally like most of Lindsey's covers, especially "A Satisfied Mind." Has Lindsey ever recorded anything so beautiful?

[David]

Originally posted by ShangriLaTroubl
RTTG is still my fav. Stevie song on Say You Will, I guess it's all about personal preference.. Yes, but I bet you're talking about the lyrics & maybe the melody, whereas I'm really talking about the track in toto. I think the approach taken by the band & the producers is mock-derivative & uninspiring. It sounds blandly mechanical in that late '80s way. In fact, it sounds like a tired Heart track -- something like "How Can I Refuse."

[David]

Originally posted by Bella Figura
Dave, I can agree with you on Running through the Garden, it's one of my favorite demos but I got bored with the final version rather quickly. But I think Smile at You came out great, not wow, just great. :laugh: It retains it's angry passion in the music and updated lyrics. It also has one of the most up-to-date sounds which very few other songs on the record have... (carne, is that grammatically correct?? :laugh: )

and with Lindsey's vocals the song morphs into perfection... What I'm least happy with on that track is the echoey, phased ambience given to the recording of the vocals.

I have a theory that Lindsey, in many of these tracks on "Say You Will," deliberately exaggerated, through electronic means, Stevie's nasality.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally posted by David
Yes, but I bet you're talking about the lyrics & maybe the melody, whereas I'm really talking about the track in toto. I think the approach taken by the band & the producers is mock-derivative & uninspiring. It sounds blandly mechanical in that late '80s way. In fact, it sounds like a tired Heart track -- something like "How Can I Refuse."


I enjoy the whole thing. The way she sings it, the instrumental parts..everything.. I do agree it's kind of 80s ...but it's just in my opinion, one of stevie's better vocal performances in a long while...The music is fine, doesnt bother me, doesnt inspire me...I'm just really into the lyrics yes, and the way she sings them

Chris

[chiliD]

Originally posted by David
In fact, it sounds like a tired Heart track -- something like "How Can I Refuse."

HEY! That's one of my favorite Heart songs...BITE YOUR TONGUE! :mad:


Granted, it IS the only decent tune on Passion Works, though.

[stefan]

Originally posted by David
What I'm least happy with on that track is the echoey, phased ambience given to the recording of the vocals.


That's the thing I like the most on this track. I also like the choral like voice on Smile at you. I dislike the 80`s guitar on RTTG.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by stefan
I dislike the 80`s guitar on RTTG.

Actually, to me it sounds more '60's...


...although, it sounds almost identical to his guitar solo on "This Is The Time" from Out Of The Cradle. Another example of Lindsey recycling ideas, no matter whether they're appropos or not.

[skcin]

What's this thread about again? :rolleyes:

Paula

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by David
At one point, around late 2001, he did plan on releasing several of those Stones covers, like "Gotta Get Away," as part of 'Gift of Screws.' A lot of those just weren't demos -- I know they're widely considered demos, but they were fully mixed studio tracks that were submitted in 2001 as his solo album.

I personally like most of Lindsey's covers, especially "A Satisfied Mind." Has Lindsey ever recorded anything so beautiful?

Hmm. That seems odd to me. Wonder why he'd want to include so many covers of the same group on a solo album? Yes, I love Lindsey's past covers, and I can see even doing one Stones cover and one Donovan cover or something to that effect - but anything more than one Stones cover on a solo album is a really bad idea, IMO. We wanna hear Lindsey, not Lindsey do the Stones. Frankly, that's just common sense. Unless LB is interested in doing some kind of tribute album!

[The Tower]

Originally posted by ShangriLaTroubl
...but it's just in my opinion, one of stevie's better vocal performances in a long while...The music is fine, doesnt bother me, doesnt inspire me...I'm just really into the lyrics yes, and the way she sings them

I absolutely agree. The production ain't so hot, but her vocal is unbelievable! I heard the live performance of this from Columbus and I'm glad they dropped it, cuz it didn't do the recording justice.

Originally posted by wildangel
As a longtime lurker I am used to carne's usual lindsey blowjobbing but this is a just ridiculous.

:laugh: :laugh: While I always enjoy Carne's posts, I just the love the term "blowjobbing". HILARIOUS!!

Originally posted by CarneVaca
"I thought Stevie would drag down the quality of the record," meaning the whole CD. I see how the statement was somewhat ambiguous, but I wasn't referring to Stevie ruining Lindsey's songs. I don't think that's what happened, though I admit Peacekeeper was a lot better before it was re-recorded with her vocals.

I, too, thought you implied that Stevie would drag down Lindsey's stuff. I personally think that Stevie improves Lindsey's stuff (and the overall quality as per your original intent). Lindsey can get so self-absorbed sometimes that I think he loses perspective- not that often, but occasionally. Stevie is that nice, soothing balme to Lindsey's hives...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by The Tower
:laugh: :laugh: While I always enjoy Carne's posts, I just the love the term "blowjobbing". HILARIOUS!!

That is pretty funny. But I confess it would have been a lot funnier directed at someone else. :laugh:

You don't suppose wildangel is a one-time poster?

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
When have I raised the fact that the song is about Lindsey as an issue? Please quote me the post. I could care less who the song is about.

[b]

You've seen me criticize Stevie for doing covers? Let's see the quote. Because, man, I know I'm getting older, but I don't remember EVER picking on Stevie for doing covers. I love covers. I think often when an artist covers someone else's song, they bring new life and freshness to something you're used to hearing in a different way. It can be quite wonderful, actually.

[b]

Dude, this is becoming a broken record here. When did I criticize her for it?

[b]

Deja vu all over again.

[b]

It is different. And I will continue to say it. It is different. Very different. Completely different situation.

[b]

Really? I didn't get that from the six previous times you said this.

[b]

Don't get psychic on me now.






Why is it different ? Because you said so? You for got to say why? or are we just suppose to take your word for it. look i didnt mean for this to go on and on, but i dont have anything to prove, like you previous stated, but i dont know what you are trying to prove. I can respect a diference of opinion, but if your going to name call ,( callin me an ass) then i want know part of it. thats for micks board , not here. If you would come down from your pedestal and stop dictating and correcting it would go much smoother. i disagree with you, but im not going to sink to your level if that where you are gonna take it. i want no part of that kind of conversation . i like the song, the way it is , you dont, i think she is a poet, you state stevie doesnt know the meaning of a poet, its just too much picking, when it really doesnt matter. and far as stevie choosing songs from her vaults for fleetwood mac and her solo i dont care how old they are.

[stefan]

Originally posted by The Tower

I, too, thought you implied that Stevie would drag down Lindsey's stuff. I personally think that Stevie improves Lindsey's stuff (and the overall quality as per your original intent). Lindsey can get so self-absorbed sometimes that I think he loses perspective- not that often, but occasionally. Stevie is that nice, soothing balme to Lindsey's hives...
Got to disagree here. Peacekeeper and esp. Say goodbye sounded a lot better before the Stevization of the songs. On the other hand SYHA sounds a lot better with her on backing vocals as I must admit. Glad she did not interfere on Red rover, Come and Murrow though.

[teedee]

Originally posted by wildangel
I usually just lurk but after reading the statement by carne about stevie bringing lindsey songs down I had to reply
As a longtime lurker I am used to carne's usual lindsey blowjobbing but this is a just ridiculous. All she did was put BG vocals on a few of his tracks. They don't sound much different. After hearing her demos on the doc. and loving the demo versions of Smile at You and Running Through the Garden I would say that you ( that is I, YOU, ME, HE, SHE pick your person and tense;) ) could make a case that lindsey brought stevies songs down :eek: :rolleyes:



lol great post, (i, you me, she, lol) good point...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
Why is it different ? Because you said so? You for got to say why? or are we just suppose to take your word for it.

I didn't for get to say anything. Go back to my original post on this.

but i dont know what you are trying to prove.

I have nothing to prove. You addressed me first and in the process you distorted and misinterpreted what I had posted. I suspect you still don't realize that you misread what I was saying to begin with.

I can respect a diference of opinion, but if your going to name call ,( callin me an ass) then i want know part of it.

I have to be honest here. I am actually baffled at how many of my posts you seem to misintepret. I never called you an ass. Go back and read the post.

If you would come down from your pedestal and stop dictating and correcting it would go much smoother.

I'm not on a pedestal. Frankly, it would probably be rather uncomfortable. I'll take my comfy leather chair any day. I don't believe I've "dictated" anything, but if you'd like to quote where I did...

but im not going to sink to your level if that where you are gonna take it.

If I'm on a pedestal and you have to "sink to" my level, what the hell are you standing on? :lol:

its just too much picking, when it really doesnt matter.

I agree that it doesn't matter. It's just a silly pop song. You seemed to take it way more seriously than I ever would.

and far as stevie choosing songs from her vaults for fleetwood mac and her solo i dont care how old they are.

Whaaaat!!?? Surely you're not going down this path again. I challenge you to come up with a post of mine in which I said pulling songs out of her vault was a problem. I CHALLENGE you.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I think Stevie's vocals on Say Goodbye is what makes it incredible...as well as Peacekeeper...i was never really a fan of Lindsey's GOS Peacekeeper..but i like the album version of this one a lot..

I agree Murrow, Come, and Red Rover are best left alone by Stevies voice...

Chris

[dissention]

Originally posted by ShangriLaTroubl
I agree Murrow, Come, and Red Rover are best left alone by Stevies voice...

Chris

If Stevie was willing to wail and scream and howl on Murrow a la her live vocals of Green Manalishi, I think it'd be even greater than it already is. :nod:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Very different situation though, Nancy. Lindsey used the songs he'd been trying to release for years. He didn't just go in the vaults looking for stuff.

Furthermore, he's always done covers, going back to the white album days.

You know, it would be cool if he put all his Stones songs together with some of the other covers and released a coves album.


Carne ,
just wanted to point out that this was the post that you had responded to, that just made me ask you why it was ok for lindsey but not for stevie. it was your answer that made me ask why ? lindsey has been working in his studio for years since he has left FM, yes his songs were intended on for a solo, so he was working on them, for a long time, all my point is stevie in all those years has been writing , she has a huge back log of songs , why shouldnt those come to life, when the opportunity presents itself, she herself stated she wanted there to be new songs on the cd, so she wrote some current ones when she got off from touring. i think that says alot, for her wanting to do that.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
Carne ,
just wanted to point out that this was the post that you had responded to, that just made me ask you why it was ok for lindsey but not for stevie.


I'm going to make this very easy for you. I was responding to Sodascouts' post, an excerpt of which follows:

Lindsey, on the other hand, did not feel the need to write anything specifically for the Fleetwood Mac project, relying on material that was a few years old (in the case of "Say Goodbye", 15 years old)...
I'm very glad to hear his songs and love them, but in the past some have criticized Stevie for raiding the vaults, doing covers, and using cowriters, and it's interesting to see it in Lindsey.

Here's the pertinent part of my response:

Very different situation though, Nancy. Lindsey used the songs he'd been trying to release for years. He didn't just go in the vaults looking for stuff.

Now, where is the criticism directed at Stevie?

It's context.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I'm going to make this very easy for you. I was responding to Sodascouts' post, an excerpt of which follows:



Here's the pertinent part of my response:



Now, where is the criticism directed at Stevie?

It's context.

my point was, you state it was a different situation , lindsey was working on these songs, intended for a solo. stevie picked some songs for a fleetwood mac cd, my point was i dont see any difference , both used older songs, so lindsey has been working on these songs all along and stevie chose to write songs all along, to me there is no difference. why is this such a big deal to you,

[teedee]

oh carne pardon me, you didnt call me an ass you just said i was talking out my ass, hmmm still not a very nice thing to say, that s what i meant when i said i wont sink to that level....i just disagree with you is all. you want all quotes, . i m pretty much basing things on how you reply, like with sodas post. you may not have stated in exact words that you dont like stevie using old songs. but i was responding on just how you stated it was different for lindsey. to me there wasnt a difference.. ok im done with this,,,,, next subject.......

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Here's the pertinent part of my response:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very different situation though, Nancy. Lindsey used the songs he'd been trying to release for years. He didn't just go in the vaults looking for stuff.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, where is the criticism directed at Stevie?

It's context.

Ack, this is all my fault! Teedee, I wasn't directly my comments specifically at Carne, though I can see how you got that impression. I apologize for that.

That being said - Carne, I think you should be able to see how your comments imply a criticism of Stevie. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but when you have a situation where I have set up a comparison of Stevie and Lindsey, and you reply that Lindsey's situation is different because "he didn't just go into the vaults looking for stuff," the reader can logically infer that you are saying that Stevie does, and that that's a negative thing. Or do you truly believe that Stevie's raiding of the vaults is just as acceptable as Lindsey's, despite their "different situations"?

Back to Teedee - I hope now that this situation is clarified we can let it go. If you'd like to confront Carne about something, wait around, he'll say something inflammatory sooner or later. This topic, however, isn't worth it. It's my opinion that NO ONE looks good in these kind of petty exchanges.

Edit: I see that you have already decided to drop it, Teedee. Good for you!

2nd Edit: I see Carne has answered my question below as well. I need to post more quickly!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
my point was, you state it was a different situation , lindsey was working on these songs, intended for a solo. stevie picked some songs for a fleetwood mac cd, my point was i dont see any difference , both used older songs, so lindsey has been working on these songs all along and stevie chose to write songs all along, to me there is no difference. why is this such a big deal to you,

It's not a big deal to me. It seems to be a big deal to you, considering how many times you've repeated the same thought on this thread. You've gone on and on about how I was dissing Stevie with my original comment, which I wasn't. You simply misread it. And you've gone on and on about why it's OK to go back to the vaults and why do I not think so. But one more time: I have not criticized Stevie for that.

I was merely trying to point out that the reason Lindsey's songs were as much as 15 years old and he didn't write new songs for SYW was because he had accummulated this body of work that he wanted to release one way or the other. He had the songs, and they were ready. So he didn't feel he needed to write more songs. They were first-pick songs, really good stuff.

Stevie, on the other hand, had brought in mostly rejects from previous recordings. I am not saying those particular songs were good or bad. But they were rejects that for one reason or another didn't fit into recordings that had already been done. And she herself obviously felt the songs perhaps weren't quite up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff and went back to the writing process to come up with some new stuff. Anyway, she has said something along those lines.

That is the difference. Do you get it yet?

[The Tower]

Originally posted by chiliD
HEY! That's one of my favorite Heart songs...BITE YOUR TONGUE! :mad:


Granted, it IS the only decent tune on Passion Works, though.

I like "Johnny Moon" and "Love Mistake" as well, but you're right, the rest of it ain't so hot...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
If you'd like to confront Carne about something, wait around, he'll say something inflammatory sooner or later.

Hey!! I resemble that... ;)

[chiliD]

Originally posted by stefan
On the other hand SYHA sounds a lot better with her on backing vocals as I must admit.


Ummmm, I dunno...I kind of liked the version with BOTH Christine & Stevie singing the backgrounds.

[teedee]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Ack, this is all my fault! Teedee, I wasn't directly my comments specifically at Carne, though I can see how you got that impression. I apologize for that.

That being said - Carne, I think you should be able to see how your comments imply a criticism of Stevie. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but when you have a situation where I have set up a comparison of Stevie and Lindsey, and you reply that Lindsey's situation is different because "he didn't just go into the vaults looking for stuff," the reader can logically infer that you are saying that Stevie does, and that that's a negative thing. Or do you truly believe that Stevie's raiding of the vaults is just as acceptable as Lindsey's, despite their "different situations"?

Back to Teedee - I hope now that this situation is clarified we can let it go. If you'd like to confront Carne about something, wait around, he'll say something inflammatory sooner or later. This topic, however, isn't worth it. It's my opinion that NO ONE looks good in these kind of petty exchanges.

Edit: I see that you have already decided to drop it, Teedee. Good for you!

2nd Edit: I see Carne has answered my question below as well. I need to post more quickly!



Hi, this is not your fault, i know you didnt direct it towards carne, but she replied to your post and thats what i replied to,. no biggie.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
It's not a big deal to me. It seems to be a big deal to you, considering how many times you've repeated the same thought on this thread. You've gone on
and on about how I was dissing Stevie with my original comment, which I wasn't. You simply misread it. And you've gone on and on about why it's OK to go back to the vaults and why do I not think so. But one more time: I have not criticized Stevie for that.

I was merely trying to point out that the reason Lindsey's songs were as much as 15 years old and he didn't write new songs for SYW was because he had accummulated this body of work that he wanted to release one way or the other. He had the songs, and they were ready. So he didn't feel he needed to write more songs. They were first-pick songs, really good stuff.

Stevie, on the other hand, had brought in mostly rejects from previous recordings. I am not saying those particular songs were good or bad. But they were rejects that for one reason or another didn't fit into recordings that had already been done. And she herself obviously felt the songs perhaps weren't quite up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff and went back to the writing process to come up with some new stuff. Anyway, she has said something along those lines.

That is the difference. Do you get it yet?


All i will say is that i agree with how soda said it.. carne you have to see that the way you word thing s they do appear negative towards stevie. you did it again in this post by stating all stevies songs were rejects, and she didnt feel they were as good as lindsey first rate stuff. you know that all these songs were rejects, oh i forgot she called you again, lol...to tell you. she just has a back long of songs dont you know that. and i believe she said she wanted to right new material for the cd, not that her stuff wasnt as good as lindseys. and if you want to get technical...the record company told lindsey this stuff will sell better as a fleetwood mac cd, not a solo cd, so looks like those first rate songs were already rejects by the record company, i believe he said that he was not a "brand" , remember. oh well it has been an exhausting thread, and soda its not your fault, there really is not much else worth saying on this topic. if carne needs the last word, so be it. i know where i stand and i stand behind it , i apologize to the board for letting this go on longer than it should have.

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by Merf
That was my favorite part as well. I loved how they showed the picture of the two of them in the studio while making the White album... and you hear Stevie's voice in the background and Lindsey's guitar. It really gives you such a sense of where they've been, where they are now, and where they are going as a musical duo. I thought, more than anything, this documentary brought everything full circle with them. Stevie once said that making this album and how the band is now, she and Lindsey are more like they were when they first joined Fleetwood Mac-- before things got so crazy and out of control. I thought adding that picture was a very poignant, sweet touch.

Right on. :nod: The picture was a sweet touch.

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
And what exactly did that one person mean saying Stevie has a dead-pan personality and almost doesn't have a personality at all?

yeah, I think the singing fish scene can put that sentiment to bed. :laugh:

[stefan]

Originally posted by chiliD
Ummmm, I dunno...I kind of liked the version with BOTH Christine & Stevie singing the backgrounds.
Chili, I guess we both meant the same version? I was talking about the album version of SYHA- there are Stevie and Christine on background. The versions I knew before were
1) from the GOS sessions- with Christine
2) from the ACLU CD or GLAD award CD or so (don`t know exactly at the moment)- this version is slightly different from the GOS one. But these both versions are with Christine and without Stevie
Although I am not too happy with the Stevization of PK and esp. Say goodbye the addition of her vocals on the album version did improve the song a lot. Another point was a little different take on LB's vocals here. They sound better compared to the 2 abovementioned versions. These did not impress me back in the day when I first heard them. So is there a version I missed? Then into my basket with it.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by stefan
The versions I knew before were
1) from the GOS sessions- with Christine

Yeah.

Originally posted by stefan
2) from the ACLU CD or GLAD award CD or so (don`t know exactly at the moment)- this version is slightly different from the GOS one.

Wasn't that "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" from the GLAAD award CD and not SYHA? Lindsey's solo version of "Peacekeeper" is from the ACLU CD.


There's the version from the Best Buy disc from The Dance tour, that is significantly different from the GOS version.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
All i will say is that i agree with how soda said it.. carne you have to see that the way you word thing s they do appear negative towards stevie. you did it again in this post by stating all stevies songs were rejects, and she didnt feel they were as good as lindsey first rate stuff.

The songs were rejects from other projects. I guess you missed the part where I said this doesn't mean they were necessarily bad songs. She herself must have felt that whatever she gave the band to start with fell short in some why, and that's why she went off the write more songs. I don't remember exactly what she said, but it happened.

the record company told lindsey this stuff will sell better as a fleetwood mac cd, not a solo cd, so looks like those first rate songs were already rejects by the record company, i believe he said that he was not a "brand" , remember.

Yeah, so what? The record company is interested in commercial crap, not quality music. Besides, Lindsey was never told that they wouldn't release his solo CD. They simply told him the record would sell better as a Fleetwood Mac CD. So it wasn't a decision about quality, as it never is. And look what's happened. It's not like they're selling millions with the record either.

carne needs the last word, so be it. i know where i stand and i stand behind it , i apologize to the board for letting this go on longer than it should have.

I don't need the last word. But if you're going to continue making comments that I feel require a reply, I will do so. This is a discussion board, and last time I checked, there was no limit as to how many times you can participate in a thread. There's no need to apologize to anyone for it. No one is forcing anyone else to read this.

[stefan]

Originally posted by chiliD

Wasn't that "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" from the GLAAD award CD and not SYHA? Lindsey's solo version of "Peacekeeper" is from the ACLU CD.


There's the version from the Best Buy disc from The Dance tour, that is significantly different from the GOS version.
Yes, you are right it was the Best Buy thing! I couldn't remember, but I knew it was on a rare CD. Both versions lacked something- on SYW it finally worked fine.

[stefan]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
This is a discussion board, and last time I checked, there was no limit as to how many times you can participate in a thread. [/B]

:laugh: Damn Carne, I forgot to check that. Definitely a lack of preparation :laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
The songs were rejects from other projects. I guess you missed the part where I said this doesn't mean they were necessarily bad songs. She herself must have felt that whatever she gave the band to start with fell short in some why, and that's why she went off the write more songs. I don't remember exactly what she said, but it happened.

[b]

Yeah, so what? The record company is interested in commercial crap, not quality music. Besides, Lindsey was never told that they wouldn't release his solo CD. They simply told him the record would sell better as a Fleetwood Mac CD. So it wasn't a decision about quality, as it never is. And look what's happened. It's not like they're selling millions with the record either.

[b]

I don't need the last word. But if you're going to continue making comments that I feel require a reply, I will do so. This is a discussion board, and last time I checked, there was no limit as to how many times you can participate in a thread. There's no need to apologize to anyone for it. No one is forcing anyone else to read this.

i know there is no rules about posting, its just that i feel this is gettin no where. you state they are rejects, it was never stated they were rejects, it wasnt said that way, she just wanted some new material on it and wanted to contribute that. and i never said that you said you thought those "rejects" were bad . Also i feel that if i was working on a solo for sooooo long and the record comp said what they said to him, thats pretty much saying , you know what lindsey its not going to happen. On the Doc. he was so set on having a double cd, he didnt care about losing any money, he wouldnt of minded if only 300,000 cds sold. well then why didnt he just put his solo out, if he didnt care about sales and if his record company was still gonna back him then why didnt he put it out after all those years. dont get me wrong i love love love lindsey, he is my fave guitarist, he is a great producer and i love some of his songs, and i would of loved for him to release a new solo, i loved out of the cradle. i think if there is another FM cd, i think that one will be more of a group effort, meaning, everyone will be in the studio together, working sharing together on new songs and again on the old ones. Remember, stevie was scheduled to release TISL and go out on tour, and when lindseys solo situation turned into a fleetwood mac project, he was left to work thru the songs stevie gave him cause basically his were all done at the time, except for adding her vocals on his cuts later on.
and the rest is history...

[wildangel]

Don't want to be a one hit wonder here:) So I will get back into this
It seems a lot of people here are saying they prefer the demo versions by both Stevie&Lindsey to the versions on SYW and I agree that some of the songs might have been better on respective solo albums. I think if they write new songs, make another cd and record it all at once ( soon after the tour is over) it will sound more cohesive. I think if they found the right co-producer it might take a little pressure off Lindsey and maybe they could get the cd out a little sooner :laugh: That being said, I like SYW and will be happy with any new music we get :nod:
A little background on me: I enjoy both Lindsey and Stevie's music equally and will readily admit that they both have strong points and weaknesses
Isnt that weird?:cool:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Stevie, on the other hand, had brought in mostly rejects from previous recordings. I am not saying those particular songs were good or bad. But they were rejects that for one reason or another didn't fit into recordings that had already been done. And she herself obviously felt the songs perhaps weren't quite up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff and went back to the writing process to come up with some new stuff. Anyway, she has said something along those lines.I think it's stretching it a bit to say that Stevie's songs... despite the fact that they were pulled from the vaults... weren't "up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff."

I think songs like "Smile At You," "Goodbye Baby," and "Running Through The Garden" prove themselves to be far more than mere "rejects."
"Gypsy" was originally intended for 'Bella Donna,' before Stevie decided it would make a better Fleetwood Mac song... and I don't think anyone considers that masterpiece to be a "reject" either.

Stevie has said on many occasions that certain songs... no matter how much she loves them, or how proud she is of them... just don't fit the feel of certain albums. So instead of including something that might get lost in the shuffle, she'll pull it for another time and album, where it can have a place of honor (my wording, not hers).

"Thrown Down," for instance, given that it was written about Lindsey during 'The Dance' tour, Stevie decided that it would make a much better Mac song than a solo song, so she pulled it from the running for 'TISL.'

Of all of the songs that she has in her vaults, she hand-picked 17 that she thought would fit alongside Lindsey's songs, as well as supply certain textures that would help round out the album.
Which is not the least bit akin to just throwing the band some rejects.

In regards to her writing the "Phoenix Four," she has said that she felt the need to write some additional songs because of the experiences she had in the time the album was being recorded.
As a writer, she had new things she needed to say, and she knew that it needed to be done in a timely fashion.

Certainly not because her songs weren't on par with Lindsey's (an opinion for which I'll just consider the source ;) ).

By the way, I don't at all feel that her material brings Lindsey's down. In fact, I totally believe that Stevie's songs added textures that Lindsey's album would have lacked otherwise... thus elevating the project.

I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if about 500,000-600,000 of 'Say You Will's' 810,827 albums sold, could be attributed to "the Stevie Factor." :)

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I totally believe that Stevie's songs added textures that Lindsey's album would have lacked otherwise... thus elevating the project.

I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if about 500,000-600,000 of 'Say You Will's' 810,827 albums sold, could be attributed to "the Stevie Factor." :)

Amen bro. :)

[teedee]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think it's stretching it a bit to say that Stevie's songs... despite the fact that they were pulled from the vaults... weren't "up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff."

I think songs like "Smile At You," "Goodbye Baby," and "Running Through The Garden" prove themselves to be far more than mere "rejects."
"Gypsy" was originally intended for 'Bella Donna,' before Stevie decided it would make a better Fleetwood Mac song... and I don't think anyone considers that masterpiece to be a "reject" either.

Stevie has said on many occasions that certain songs... no matter how much she loves them, or how proud she is of them... just don't fit the feel of certain albums. So instead of including something that might get lost in the shuffle, she'll pull it for another time and album, where it can have a place of honor (my wording, not hers).

"Thrown Down," for instance, given that it was written about Lindsey during 'The Dance' tour, Stevie decided that it would make a much better Mac song than a solo song, so she pulled it from the running for 'TISL.'

Of all of the songs that she has in her vaults, she hand-picked 17 that she thought would fit alongside Lindsey's songs, as well as supply certain textures that would help round out the album.
Which is not the least bit akin to just throwing the band some rejects.

In regards to her writing the "Phoenix Four," she has said that she felt the need to write some additional songs because of the experiences she had in the time the album was being recorded.
As a writer, she had new things she needed to say, and she knew that it needed to be done in a timely fashion.

Certainly not because her songs weren't on par with Lindsey's (an opinion for which I'll just consider the source ;) ).

By the way, I don't at all feel that her material brings Lindsey's down. In fact, I totally believe that Stevie's songs added textures that Lindsey's album would have lacked otherwise... thus elevating the project.

I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if about 500,000-600,000 of 'Say You Will's' 810,827 albums sold, could be attributed to "the Stevie Factor." :)


AMEN!

:wavey:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think it's stretching it a bit to say that Stevie's songs... despite the fact that they were pulled from the vaults... weren't "up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff."


You can call getting fired an extended vacation, but it's still getting fired. You can call a rejected song whatever you want, but it's still a reject. And because it was rejected from a certain project does not mean song is bad. For the third time.

As far as whether Stevie's stuff is up to par with Lindsey's, I have been intrigued with some comments on these very boards from Stevie fans who say they like Lindsey's songs on SYW better than Stevie's. As for myself, the two gems on SYW from Stevie are Goodbye Baby and Everybody Finds Out. Garden (too 80s), Silver Girl (too crappy) and Smile at You (can't get past the atrocious grammar in the chorus) I don't even listen to. Thrown Down is cool. SWY is catchy once you get to the chorus, but those two-note verses are a little grating. Illume, despite my problems with it, has a certain charm.

Did Stevie pull more buyers to the stores? Sure, but clearly not nearly as many as they were expecting. Is she pulling people to the concerts? I'd say yes, but I have to wonder how much Lindsey's showmanship on the current tour has played a role in filling the arenas. I'm even planning to go to a show now, even though I had decided not to, and it's strictly because of Lindsey (of course, it would be anyway).

Anyway, this thread is becoming tiresome.

Let's dance.

(A quarter for whomever gets that reference.)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think it's stretching it a bit to say that Stevie's songs... despite the fact that they were pulled from the vaults... weren't "up to par with Lindsey's first-rate stuff."

I think songs like "Smile At You," "Goodbye Baby," and "Running Through The Garden" prove themselves to be far more than mere "rejects."
"Gypsy" was originally intended for 'Bella Donna,' before Stevie decided it would make a better Fleetwood Mac song... and I don't think anyone considers that masterpiece to be a "reject" either.

Stevie has said on many occasions that certain songs... no matter how much she loves them, or how proud she is of them... just don't fit the feel of certain albums. So instead of including something that might get lost in the shuffle, she'll pull it for another time and album, where it can have a place of honor (my wording, not hers).

"Thrown Down," for instance, given that it was written about Lindsey during 'The Dance' tour, Stevie decided that it would make a much better Mac song than a solo song, so she pulled it from the running for 'TISL.'

Of all of the songs that she has in her vaults, she hand-picked 17 that she thought would fit alongside Lindsey's songs, as well as supply certain textures that would help round out the album.
Which is not the least bit akin to just throwing the band some rejects.

In regards to her writing the "Phoenix Four," she has said that she felt the need to write some additional songs because of the experiences she had in the time the album was being recorded.
As a writer, she had new things she needed to say, and she knew that it needed to be done in a timely fashion.

Certainly not because her songs weren't on par with Lindsey's (an opinion for which I'll just consider the source ;) ).

By the way, I don't at all feel that her material brings Lindsey's down. In fact, I totally believe that Stevie's songs added textures that Lindsey's album would have lacked otherwise... thus elevating the project.

I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if about 500,000-600,000 of 'Say You Will's' 810,827 albums sold, could be attributed to "the Stevie Factor." :)

That was a very refreshing post. :)

And I agree Stevie is what made people buy the album. Without her picture on the cover and her name on that little sticker (that says 18 brand new songs featuring stevie nicks...) the album wouldn't have sold much. I don't even know if I would have purchased it, because I am more a Stevie fan then a FM fan.

And I think her material is stronger then Lindsey's strange songs (e.g. Red Rover, Come, Murrow) wich are nice to listen to from time to time, but Stevie's more down to earth songs are what gives this album its heart.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by CarneVaca


Did Stevie pull more buyers to the stores? Sure, but clearly not nearly as many as they were expecting. Is she pulling people to the concerts? I'd say yes, but I have to wonder how much Lindsey's showmanship on the current tour has played a role in filling the arenas. I'm even planning to go to a show now, even though I had decided not to, and it's strictly because of Lindsey (of course, it would be anyway).


I think Stevie should have 90% of the credit for getting people to come to the shows. I know everyone will disagree, but Stevie will go down in history for her witchy persona on stage and that's what most people want to experience.

[Alison]

I don't know if I should add anything here or not. I know for me it is Stevie that draws me. I love Lindsey's guitar playing and musical genus. But I find I get tired of most of Lindsey's songs real fast. I find Stevie hits that certain spot in my heart that Lindsey seldom does. I can play most of Stevie's songs on "Say You Will" over and over. I find I like Lindsey the best when he strips his songs down. When it is him and his finger picking on guitar, thats when I find him the softest, but also the strongest.
Stevie is the smooth cream that goes into the coffee.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I think Stevie should have 90% of the credit for getting people to come to the shows. I know everyone will disagree, but Stevie will go down in history for her witchy persona on stage and that's what most people want to experience.

That was the case twenty years ago, not now. Her witchy stage persona was the big draw back then, but it's very faint these days. Now it's Fleetwood Mac that gets the people to come to shows. And I'd bet my life that after seeing Lindsey and his performances on this tour, those people who just went to see Stevie will go to see him next time around. :nod: :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You can call getting fired an extended vacation, but it's still getting fired. You can call a rejected song whatever you want, but it's still a reject. And because it was rejected from a certain project does not mean song is bad. For the third time.True enough, but there's also a difference between getting fired and choosing to leave your job, no?

Anyway, the term "reject" implies that something isn't good enough to cut it, and I was simply explaining that Stevie's songs were no mere "rejects"... they were songs that she felt would be better suited to other projects. The choices were made with consideration to the material, not because the material was of a lesser quality.
If you still feel that makes them "rejects," then by the same token, this batch of Lindsey's songs are also rejects, because Warner Bros. wasn't interested in them. But I don't think that assessment would be a fair one either.Originally posted by CarneVaca
As far as whether Stevie's stuff is up to par with Lindsey's, I have been intrigued with some comments on these very boards from Stevie fans who say they like Lindsey's songs on SYW better than Stevie's. As for myself, the two gems on SYW from Stevie are Goodbye Baby and Everybody Finds Out. Garden (too 80s), Silver Girl (too crappy) and Smile at You (can't get past the atrocious grammar in the chorus) I don't even listen to. Thrown Down is cool. SWY is catchy once you get to the chorus, but those two-note verses are a little grating. Illume, despite my problems with it, has a certain charm.I've seen a few people around here say that they like Lindsey's material better than Stevie's, too... but I've also seen quite a few people who feel the opposite.
In fact, of the handful of friends and family I've loaned the album to, the one comment I've heard most was, "well, I liked Stevie's stuff." And this from people who, in the past, quite liked Lindsey's music.
Now, none of this is a confirmation that one writer's material was better... it's just another example of differing tastes.

And with all due respect, I still think it's silly to dislike a song over bad grammar, because, again, that technicality would wipe out a lot of great rock & roll songs.Originally posted by CarneVaca
Did Stevie pull more buyers to the stores? Sure, but clearly not nearly as many as they were expecting. Is she pulling people to the concerts? I'd say yes, but I have to wonder how much Lindsey's showmanship on the current tour has played a role in filling the arenas. I'm even planning to go to a show now, even though I had decided not to, and it's strictly because of Lindsey (of course, it would be anyway).I think my cousin, Beth, and her husband, might have said it best.... "Lindsey absolutely blew us away with his energy, but Stevie was still the one who kept us enthralled all night." :nod:Originally posted by CarneVaca
Anyway, this thread is becoming tiresome.

Let's dance.Put on your red shoes, and dance the blues.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Put on your red shoes, and dance the blues.

Ahh, Bowie. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Ahh, Bowie. :laugh: Don't you just adore him?

It's a bit of a dark-horse, but I think my favorite Bowie song would have to be "Absolute Beginners."
But you really can't go wrong where the Thin White Duke is concerned. :nod:

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Don't you just adore him?

It's a bit of a dark-horse, but I think my favorite Bowie song would have to be "Absolute Beginners."
But you really can't go wrong where the Thin White Duke is concerned. :nod:

I couldn't possibly choose a favorite, although "Beauty and the Beast" and "Cactus" are right up there.

Could you imagine a reworking of "Beauty and the Beast" by Lindsey? :eek:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally posted by Lux
Maybe back in time but I think now it's the old classics that fills the arenas. Now I don't mean to piss off the Stevie fans, but it's quite clear who I think is behind all those classics, even if the fans don't necessarily recognise it and continue cry out 'Stevie we love you'. Not to remove credit from Stevie entirely, I just don't believe it's her antics that is now filling the arenas.

I dont think it's either one..it's BOTH..being there together, and all four really..it's Fleetwood Mac..If it were just Lindsey John and Mick it wouldnt be as huge as it is, nor would it be if it were just Stevie John and Mick..

Chris

[shackin'up]

Okay, I really normally don't interfere in lindsey-stevie-quality-quarrels because I think they're boring and not very in the spirit of the quality of this band imo.

but I will quote slate magazine on the reissues for this matter:



What really made these three albums tick, though—and made their sound basically irreproducible—was that late-'70s Fleetwood Mac was an improbable balancing act, powered by internal conflicts and bizarre chemistry.


A California-to-the-core studio obsessive with a permanent case of the jitters (Buckingham), a dreamy mystical type with a gift for ornate, languorous melodies (Nicks), and a veteran British rhythm section with roots in raw electric blues (Fleetwood and the McVies): Try faking that combination.

Although on SYW and this tour Christine isn't there, i still think this band has the same quality as described in the quotes.

And that's what brought the people to the shows.

And at least: It brought me overseas.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Lux
Maybe back in time but I think now it's the old classics that fills the arenas. Now I don't mean to piss off the Stevie fans, but it's quite clear who I think is behind all those classics, even if the fans don't necessarily recognise it and continue cry out 'Stevie we love you'. Not to remove credit from Stevie entirely, I just don't believe it's her antics that is now filling the arenas.

Yes, but Lindsey did not write most of the "classics": Stevie and Christine did. So, if people, like you say, are comming for the classic songs- it is because of Stevie.

Gypsy, Rhiannon, Stand Back, Landslide, Gold Dust Woman, and Dreams are all classic songs. And now, after the Dance, Silver Springs has become a new classic.

What does Lindsey have? GYOW and Tusk. Those are his classic songs.

[teedee]

Originally posted by Lux
Stevie 'wrote' those songs. Don't get me wrong, I think she's a great talent, and obviously those are her songs, but I don't think they'd be the classics if it weren't for Lindsey. She did give him (and of course producers) her tunes and he made them what they are. Rhiannon without the riff that made it the recognisable tune? Gold Dust Woman without Lindsey's input? I doubt they'd be much to perform. It is of my opinion (and mine only, don't jump down my throat here) that Lindsey's songs do not actually require Stevie, where as the opposite is not true (when I say that, I mean Lindsey, or someone in his role, obviously because of her solo career). I know, I know, most don't agree. But that's the opinion of this Lindsey fan.


Hi,
Yes stevie did write those songs and lindsey did produce them, very true, he adds more magic to them. but if its a matter of why ppl are coming out to the shows, as someone put it , to hear the classics, basically they are her songs. as for lindseys songs not needing stevie, well she may not play an instrument to add to his songs, but she does add the vocals, and lindsey did add her vocals to his songs. yes she does have her solo career which she has other producers and doesnt need lindsey and thats works out ok, even so i do think he produces her the best. about the ppl coming to the show, i do believe most of it is due to stevie, just because of her strong following .her fans will go to great lengths to see her. i do also believe they come because of the whole lindsey and stevie chemistry on stage and to hear and see them together and enjoying themselves and their interactions.this is not to say that lindsey doesnt have his on following of fans, i just believe that stevies is much stronger. I love lindsey and i do think he is the most under-rated guitarist-producer out there. but i will say this that any person going to see this tour will walk away with (if not already) a new appreciation for Mr. Lindsey Buckingham. I do think that from the Dance tour ,( and i loved the dance tour) compared to this tour, Lindsey is totally totally outdoing himself, he is on fire in all aspects, its like he is reborn and exploding ,In the early years even tho he was still a great guitarist, he wasnt as interactive with the audience on a personal level, like he is now. at one show i heard the guy behind me say, wow i didnt think he would be so outgoing with the audience. back then stevie was more the visual, but what she did was phyical with her stage persona and performance. i think its sad when ppl out there expect her to do today what she did back then ,they say oh stevies not twirling or screaming at the mic like she did, people dont realize she is older now, certain thingsshe did during songs back then may not look as appropriate at an older age, or people cant accept that she (but much better) ages like we age. either way im greatful they are together on stage, too bad chris isnt there, but its like a buckingham, nicks show,, now if they would only release that cd and suport it with a tour, omg that would be great!!!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Yes, but Lindsey did not write most of the "classics": Stevie and Christine did. So, if people, like you say, are comming for the classic songs- it is because of Stevie.

Gypsy, Rhiannon, Stand Back, Landslide, Gold Dust Woman, and Dreams are all classic songs. And now, after the Dance, Silver Springs has become a new classic.

What does Lindsey have? GYOW and Tusk. Those are his classic songs.

Don't confuse classics with hits and don't credit Stevie for the crowds. If she was the biggest draw, her solo tours would sell much, much better and they wouldn't pull in way under $20 million.

What does Lindsey have? GYOW, Tusk, Second Hand News, Eyes of the World, Never Going Back Again, Peacekeeper, World Turning, Big Love, I'm So Afraid. Those are his classic songs.

What does Stevie have? Gypsy, Rhiannon, Stand Back, Landslide, Gold Dust Woman, Dreams, and SIlver Springs. Those are her classics.

Get it? The whole setlist consists of classic songs that even casual fans know, not from being singles, but from being on their biggest selling records.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
That was the case twenty years ago, not now. Her witchy stage persona was the big draw back then, but it's very faint these days. Now it's Fleetwood Mac that gets the people to come to shows. And I'd bet my life that after seeing Lindsey and his performances on this tour, those people who just went to see Stevie will go to see him next time around. :nod: :laugh:

i myself do believe stevie does draw the crowd, even if her witchy persona isnt as strong today, its her name, its her talent its her presence, that gets the people excited to see her. but you are right they will be excited next time around to see lindsey as well, but i will say this, i do believe that if stevie were to do a tour with fleetwood mac, minus , lindsey , i do think it would do better, than say if lindsey were to tour with fleetwood mac , minus stevie. i was lucky enough to see lindsey back in 93, he opened for tina turner in RENO, for out of the cradle , and he blew me away!!! I myself would go see him on a solo tour, for sure.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
i myself do believe stevie does draw the crowd, even if her witchy persona isnt as strong today, its her name, its her talent its her presence, that gets the people excited to see her. but you are right they will be excited next time around to see lindsey as well, but i will say this, i do believe that if stevie were to do a tour with fleetwood mac, minus , lindsey , i do think it would do better, than say if lindsey were to tour with fleetwood mac , minus stevie. i was lucky enough to see lindsey back in 93, he opened for tina turner in RENO, for out of the cradle , and he blew me away!!! I myself would go see him on a solo tour, for sure.

Then how come the people who shell out $125 to see her now don't shell out half that price to see her on her solo tours?

If Lindsey didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.

If Stevie didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell probably the same as a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.

[Merf]

Originally posted by dissention
Then how come the people who shell out $125 to see her now don't shell out half that price to see her on her solo tours?

If Lindsey didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.

If Stevie didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell probably the same as a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.

Amen. People are there to see Lindsey AND Stevie. Both of them. The numbers don't lie.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Lux
I agree, most people are there to see/hear her songs. But I'm saying that Lindsey who was originally responsible for those being hits, and I think it's his presence that executes them today. I don't think the majority of the people are there to see him but inadvertently they are going to see those hits because Lindsey made them so.

Don't you think that is sort of grasping at straws?

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally posted by dissention
What does Lindsey have? GYOW, Tusk, Second Hand News, Eyes of the World, Never Going Back Again, Peacekeeper, World Turning, Big Love, I'm So Afraid. Those are his classic songs.

:nod:

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Don't you think that is sort of grasping at straws?

:eek:

Find another guitarist who could go out on the road and finger-pick at the end of Gypsy like Lindsey with as much perfection. Compare solo versions of Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman. Make an attempt to find someone who could put as much spark into the bland Say You Will. Come up with another musician who can put as much of an impact into Goodbye Baby and Beautiful Child as the star who sings them.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Don't confuse classics with hits and don't credit Stevie for the crowds. If she was the biggest draw, her solo tours would sell much, much better and
they wouldn't pull in way under $20 million.

What does Lindsey have? GYOW, Tusk, Second Hand News, Eyes of the World, Never Going Back Again, Peacekeeper, World Turning, Big Love, I'm So Afraid. Those are his classic songs.

What does Stevie have? Gypsy, Rhiannon, Stand Back, Landslide, Gold Dust Woman, Dreams, and SIlver Springs. Those are her classics.

Get it? The whole setlist consists of classic songs that even casual fans know, not from being singles, but from being on their biggest selling records.


I dont think it was meant that stevie is the biggest draw out there... its just that she is a bigger draw than lindsey, is what i think was meant, well its what i meant... stevie was able to go out and support all her solos. i personally dont know what her earnings were, but the venues looked darn full to me. but you also have to remember, back then tickets were much cheaper, how long was the tour, and on the last TISL tour, that was a time that no one wanted to travel and so on, i dont remember but i dont think that tour made it to europe did it? it was a hard time, but i thought she was brave to stay out there on the road, cause she made lots of us forget our problems for a short while.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
I dont think it was meant that stevie is the biggest draw out there... its just that she is a bigger draw than lindsey, is what i think was meant, well its what i meant... stevie was able to go out and support all her solos. i personally dont know what her earnings were, but the venues looked darn full to me. but you also have to remember, back then tickets were much cheaper, how long was the tour, and on the last TISL tour, that was a time that no one wanted to travel and so on, i dont remember but i dont think that tour made it to europe did it? it was a hard time, but i thought she was brave to stay out there on the road, cause she made lots of us forget our problems for a short while.

Even the Enchanted tour, which followed The Dance by only a few months, was expected to be a pretty big tour, but it kinda flopped. Ticket sales lagged. The fact is, Stevie can't fill the arenas anymore (which is why she doesn't tour them), she can't even fill ampitheatres. The TISL tour had it problems, including Stevie's health, but lack of ticket sales were also another big problem. This has nothing to do with our love of Stevie, it has to do with hard facts. :)

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Then how come the people who shell out $125 to see her now don't shell out half that price to see her on her solo tours?

If Lindsey didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.

If Stevie didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell probably the same as a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.


what are you using as a base to say that stevies tours did badly..? can you compare , stevies solo tours to lindseys tours? oops he didnt tour, how come? he only briefly supported out of the cradle, BUT AS AN OPENING ACT FOR TINA TURNER which i was lucky enough to catch.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Then how come the people who shell out $125 to see her now don't shell out half that price to see her on her solo tours?


if we are really turning this into a "who's better? lindsey or stevie?" thread then how much would tickets to a lindsey solo tour cost? prob. half or less of what a stevie solo ticket would cost.

by the way, what were the ticket prices for stevie's TISL tour? were they really that bad? i think FM tickets are just unusually high, so it seems like stevie is cheap and no one wants to see her.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
what are you using as a base to say that stevies tours did badly..? can you compare , stevies solo tours to lindseys tours? oops he didnt tour, how come? he only briefly supported out of the cradle, BUT AS AN OPENING ACT FOR TINA TURNER which i was lucky enough to catch.

You're missing the point.

Since so many wanted to state that Stevie is the biggest draw to Mac shows, I compared attendance to her solo shows and the current Mac shows. If she was such a big draw, her solo shows would be sold-out and she'd make more than $14 million. If she was such a big draw, she would headline some arenas. If she was such a big draw, her ticket sales wouldn't lag, even when good seats are under $70.

And Lindsey didn't just tour as an opening act for Tina, he did that after his tour across the US in intimate venues.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
What does Lindsey have? GYOW, Tusk, Second Hand News, Eyes of the World, Never Going Back Again, Peacekeeper, World Turning, Big Love, I'm So Afraid. Those are his classic songs.

How is Peacekeeper a classic? You yourself said that all the singles from SYW were a flop, if I remember.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
if we are really turning this into a "who's better? lindsey or stevie?" thread then how much would tickets to a lindsey solo tour cost? prob. half or less of what a stevie solo ticket would cost.

by the way, what were the ticket prices for stevie's TISL tour? were they really that bad? i think FM tickets are just unusually high, so it seems like stevie is cheap and no one wants to see her.

No one is turning thsi into that type of thread other than the people who said Stevie is the big draw. She isn't, Fleetwood Mac is.

Besides for some major markets, almost all of Stevie's shows were under $100. Most around $70.

And I don't quite understand the logic of Stevie tix being cheap, so nobody wants to see her vs. Mac tickets being through the roof and people are dying to see her. :confused:

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
How is Peacekeeper a classic? You yourself said that all the singles from SYW were a flop, if I remember.

I said all of the singles after Peacekeeper were flops. Peacekeeper was the only single to hit the Hot 100.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
even when good seats are under $70.


Am I the only one who thinks that 70 dollars for tickets is still really good for stevie? i mean most big name artists today, that are selling millions of albums, can't even get that much for a ticket.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Lux
I think they mean a 'classic' as opposed to a 'hit'. That's how I interpretted it.

In any case, the estimation that GYOW and Tusk are the only ones is utter horse ****. :laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
:eek:

Find another guitarist who could go out on the road and finger-pick at the end of Gypsy like Lindsey with as much perfection. Compare solo versions of Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman. Make an attempt to find someone who could put as much spark into the bland Say You Will. Come up with another musician who can put as much of an impact into Goodbye Baby and Beautiful Child as the star who sings them.

idont think any one is saying that he isnt a great if not one of the best guitarists and producer around!

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Am I the only one who thinks that 70 dollars for tickets is still really good for stevie? i mean most big name artists today, that are selling millions of albums, can't even get that much for a ticket.

It's great, but how come those tix didn't sell-out consistently and do much better, seeing as how Stevie is the biggest draw?

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
And I don't quite understand the logic of Stevie tix being cheap, so nobody wants to see her vs. Mac tickets being through the roof and people are dying to see her. :confused:

All I was trying to say, was that you said that Stevie's solo tours were selling "like ****", but i still say that less then 100 and around 70 dollars is a lot of money!

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
idont think any one is saying that he isnt a great if not one of the best guitarists and producer around!

I was referring to the comment that Lux was grasping for straws when she said that Lindsey is one of the driving forces behind their lush execution. :)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
It's great, but how come those tix didn't sell-out consistently and do much better, seeing as how Stevie is the biggest draw?

she is the biggest draw because if any of the other members of fm were to do a solo tour they would not sell as well. that makes her the biggest draw right?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
All I was trying to say, was that you said that Stevie's solo tours were selling "like ****", but i still say that less then 100 and around 70 dollars is a lot of money!

I meant they sold like **** attendance-wise.

No one bought them on the scale that they bought Mac tickets.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
she is the biggest draw because if any of the other members of fm were to do a solo tour they would not sell as well. that makes her the biggest draw right?

No!

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
No!

explain, please.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Even the Enchanted tour, which followed The Dance by only a few months, was expected to be a pretty big tour, but it kinda flopped. Ticket sales lagged. The fact is, Stevie can't fill the arenas anymore (which is why she doesn't tour them), she can't even fill ampitheatres. The TISL tour had it problems, including Stevie's health, but lack of ticket sales were also another big problem. This has nothing to do with our love of Stevie, it has to do with hard facts. :)


welll the venues looked pretty full to me, you make it sound like the halls were half empty, and thats not the case, as for her being sick on tisl, she rescheduled those cancelled dates. and your right it has nothing to do with our love for her.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
explain, please.

Oh my word, I thought that was what I was doing.

Read carefully:

If Stevie was the biggest draw, her solo tours would've done much better than way under $20 million. She can't fill arenas or ampitheatres in general. Fleetwood Mac can. And they can sell out on a consistent basis.

If Lindsey was not a part of the Mac and it was only Stevie, John, and Mick, that tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour.

If Stevie was not a part of the Mac, and it was only Lindsey, John, and Mick, that tour would probably sell like a Stevie solo tour: $14 million.

In summary, it is the combined chemistry of Lindsey, Stevie, Mick, and John that makes Fleetwood Mac touring so successful. Not Stevie, not Lindsey, ALL of them.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
welll the venues looked pretty full to me, you make it sound like the halls were half empty, and thats not the case, as for her being sick on tisl, she rescheduled those cancelled dates. and your right it has nothing to do with our love for her.

Go look up the attendance numbers, doll.

A half-full venue looks almost full to the naked eye. ;)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Oh my word, I thought that was what I was doing.

Read carefully:



Okay, I'm not that stupid...

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Okay, I'm not that stupid...

I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying that I've explained it ten-fold in the last half hour. ;)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention

If Stevie was the biggest draw, her solo tours would've done much better than way under $20 million. She can't fill arenas or ampitheatres in general. Fleetwood Mac can. And they can sell out on a consistent basis.

If Lindsey was not a part of the Mac and it was only Stevie, John, and Mick, that tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour.

If Stevie was not a part of the Mac, and it was only Lindsey, John, and Mick, that tour would probably sell like a Stevie solo tour: $14 million.

In summary, it is the combined chemistry of Lindsey, Stevie, Mick, and John that makes Fleetwood Mac touring so successful. Not Stevie, not Lindsey, ALL of them.

But, correct me if i'm wrong, the biggest draw means who drwas the most people to a venue. if stevie's solo tours sell more then a lindsey solo tour, then that means that stevie has a larger fan following and draws more people to the concerts. that makes her the biggest draw out of lindsey and stevie.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
But, correct me if i'm wrong, the biggest draw means who drwas the most people to a venue. if stevie's solo tours sell more then a lindsey solo tour, then that means that stevie has a larger fan following and draws more people to the concerts. that makes her the biggest draw out of lindsey and stevie.

I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous rationale.

We have no way to assert how many people would attend a Lindsey Buckingham solo tour. We can't use numbers from the OOTC tour because that was more than ten years ago.

The biggest draw means who draws the most people to the venue. Who draws the most people? FLEETWOOD MAC.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
You're missing the point.

Since so many wanted to state that Stevie is the biggest draw to Mac shows, I compared attendance to her solo shows and the current Mac shows. If she was such a big draw, her solo shows would be sold-out and she'd make more than $14 million. If she was such a big draw, she would headline some arenas. If she was such a big draw, her ticket sales wouldn't lag, even when good seats are under $70.

And Lindsey didn't just tour as an opening act for Tina, he did that after his tour across the US in intimate venues.

i stand corrected on the lindsey/tina opening act. i wasnt aware that he toured completely for that cd, good for him, i loved that cd. and may i ask how did that tour do, how much did he gross and what were his ticket prices, just curious... as for what ever stevies venues she played , i think the attendance appeared to be full, i will admit i dont keep my nose in bill board for numbers of sales and tickets and such, but i just believe that if stevie wasnt involved with this fm tour it wouldnt be as successful..i know fm is all of them , and yes ppl want to see fm the whole package , but do you think honestly if stevie didnt tour they could get away with omitting her songs from the set, do you think the crowd would accept lindsey singing all stevies lead vocals, do you think they would accept a hired woman singer to try to replace stevie, or do you think an audience would be more accepting of having a new guitarist back up stevie on a fm tour .. like it was stated earlier this has nothing to do with the love we have for lindsey or stevie, just the facts. i do believe that lindsey s production with the mac, is best no doubt in my mind!!! he definately adds to fm .

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
i stand corrected on the lindsey/tina opening act. i wasnt aware that he toured completely for that cd, good for him, i loved that cd. and may i ask how did that tour do, how much did he gross and what were his ticket prices, just curious... as for what ever stevies venues she played , i think the attendance appeared to be full, i will admit i dont keep my nose in bill board for numbers of sales and tickets and such, but i just believe that if stevie wasnt involved with this fm tour it wouldnt be as successful..i know fm is all of them , and yes ppl want to see fm the whole package , but do you think honestly if stevie didnt tour they could get away with omitting her songs from the set, do you think the crowd would accept lindsey singing all stevies lead vocals, do you think they would accept a hired woman singer to try to replace stevie, or do you think an audience would be more accepting of having a new guitarist back up stevie on a fm tour .. like it was stated earlier this has nothing to do with the love we have for lindsey or stevie, just the facts. i do believe that lindsey s production with the mac, is best no doubt in my mind!!! he definately adds to fm .

But do you believe that they'd be able to leave out Lindsey songs and tour successfully? Hell no. It is the combination of Stevie and Lindsey. If it was just Stevie it would bomb and Mick and John would have a ****ty income.

As for the OOTC prices, they were quite low. Under $50, I think. He only toured small clubs, but almost all of them sold out.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous rationale.

We have no way to assert how many people would attend a Lindsey Buckingham solo tour. We can't use numbers from the OOTC tour because that was more than ten years ago.

The biggest draw means who draws the most people to the venue. Who draws the most people? FLEETWOOD MAC.

But what year was OOTC? 92? i'll bet timespace was a more successful tour and that is regarded as her worst timeperiod in the business.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
You're missing the point.

Since so many wanted to state that Stevie is the biggest draw to Mac shows, I compared attendance to her solo shows and the current Mac shows. If she was such a big draw, her solo shows would be sold-out and she'd make more than $14 million. If she was such a big draw, she would headline some arenas. If she was such a big draw, her ticket sales wouldn't lag, even when good seats are under $70.

And Lindsey didn't just tour as an opening act for Tina, he did that after his tour across the US in intimate venues.


how come he played intimate venues and not arenas?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
But what year was OOTC? 92? i'll bet timespace was a more successful tour and that is regarded as her worst timeperiod in the business.

You're hell bent on proving that Stevie is the big draw, but it can't be done, my friend.

You can't compare clubs that seat 850-1,000 people to an ampitheatre that seats 10,000-20,000. But if you want to, Lindsey sold out many, many shows and Stevie didn't sell out one on the Timespace tour. ;)

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
how come he played intimate venues and not arenas?

Probably because he hadn't been involved in the music scene for many years and couldn't secure enough money to play arenas.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by teedee
how come he played intimate venues and not arenas?

because he wouldn't be able to fill the first ten rows of an arena is my guess. :laugh:

Seriously though, Lindsey Buckingham is not exactly a household name. Stevie Nicks is. So Stevie can play at amps and arenas, not that lindsey is any less of a musician- just not as commercial as the queen of rock and roll, stevie nicks!

[teedee]

Originally posted by Lux
Lindsey's got more of a cult following. But people don't realise that if they say they're a fan of Stevie (in FM), they don't realise that they're actually a fan of Stevie and Lindsey, seeing he made most of the songs what they are.

that may be true that he made the songs what they are, but unfortunately, people who are just fans, dont really look at it that way so when they say im a stevie fan, i think they mean im a stevie fan...

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
because he wouldn't be able to fill the first ten rows of an arena is my guess. :laugh:

Seriously though, Lindsey Buckingham is not exactly a household name. Stevie Nicks is. So Stevie can play at amps and arenas, not that lindsey is any less of a musician- just not as commercial as the queen of rock and roll, stevie nicks!

Stevie couldn't fill the first ten rows of an ampitheatre based on tour data.

That's where you're wrong; Stevie can't fill arenas, even during the Timespace tour or other tours after that. I mean, she even played the Ohio State Fair. ;)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
You can't compare clubs that seat 850-1,000 people to an ampitheatre that seats 10,000-20,000. But if you want to, Lindsey sold out many, many shows and Stevie didn't sell out one on the Timespace tour. ;)

Good Point.:laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Good Point.:laugh:

I'm gaining ground!!!!

:eek: :laugh:

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Stevie couldn't fill the first ten rows of an ampitheatre based on tour data.

That's where you're wrong; Stevie can't fill arenas, even during the Timespace tour or other tours after that. I mean, she even played the Ohio State Fair. ;)

Well at least it's not like a county fair.

and do you seriously think stevie could not fill up ten rows in an arena? am i confused on how many seats that means?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Well at least it's not like a county fair.

and do you seriously think stevie could not fill up ten rows in an arena? am i confused on how many seats that means?

She couldn't secure an arena because she wouldn't be able to afford it and make a profit at the end of the day. :laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Then how come the people who shell out $125 to see her now don't shell out half that price to see her on her solo tours?

If Lindsey didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.

If Stevie didn't tour with Fleetwood Mac, the tour would sell probably the same as a Stevie solo tour. In other words, it would sell ****ty.



im not denying the fact that people are paying 125 , i know their is the lindsey/stevie chemistry that is drawing people. and yes they are paying to see fleetwood mac the group, i know that, i am just stating if stevie was not involved, this tour would not be what it is, without her. in other words, if it was john mick and lindsey, i dont think tickets would be 125, or if they were 125 i dont think they would be selling.

[diamondsnake]

I wish Stevie weren't as popular as she is. I would much rather see her at an intimate club setting, as opposed to a big concert amp.

my dream is actually that when buckinghamnicks comes out on cd that stevie and lindsey do an entirely accoustic tour in small clubs to support it. just stevie, lindsey, a guitar, and a tambo.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
im not denying the fact that people are paying 125 , i know their is the lindsey/stevie chemistry that is drawing people. and yes they are paying to see fleetwood mac the group, i know that, i am just stating if stevie was not involved, this tour would not be what it is, without her. in other words, if it was john mick and lindsey, i dont think tickets would be 125, or if they were 125 i dont think they would be selling.

And what I am saying, for the 1,098,456 time, is that if Lindsey wasn't involved, the same people wouldn't shell out $125 just to see Stevie. :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I wish Stevie weren't as popular as she is. I would much rather see her at an intimate club setting, as opposed to a big concert amp.

my dream is actually that when buckinghamnicks comes out on cd that stevie and lindsey do an entirely accoustic tour in small clubs to support it. just stevie, lindsey, a guitar, and a tambo.

I think the "commercial gods" would frown down upon that. ;)

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
No one is turning thsi into that type of thread other than the people who said Stevie is the big draw. She isn't, Fleetwood Mac is.

Besides for some major markets, almost all of Stevie's shows were under $100. Most around $70.

And I don't quite understand the logic of Stevie tix being cheap, so nobody wants to see her vs. Mac tickets being through the roof and people are dying to see her. :confused:

they werent cheap for the time, and i thought she did well... as for group sales, the FM tickets although they may seem high to us the buyer, but if you compare them to the stones or eagles its a discount...

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
And what I am saying, for the 1,098,456 time, is that if Lindsey wasn't involved, the same people wouldn't shell out $125 just to see Stevie. :)

Well be prepared to restate your thoughts for the 1,098,457th time because i still disagree. you seem to think that if it was fm sans stevie it would sell the same as fm sans lindsey. but when you really think about it, wouldn't stevie's absence be more of a commerical devestation?

(Note: Because everyone is posting so quickly i am not spell checking. ignore the mispelling please!:laugh: )

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Well be prepared to restate your thoughts for the 1,098,457th time because i still disagree. you seem to think that if it was fm sans stevie it would sell the same as fm sans lindsey. but when you really think about it, wouldn't stevie's absence be more of a commerical devestation?

(Note: Because everyone is posting so quickly i am not spell checking. ignore the mispelling please!:laugh: )

[DownOnRodeo]

EDIT: Look I think that what we are all trying to say is that people would probably not pay $A200 to see Mick and John. OK - we are in agreeance!!! :laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Oh my word, I thought that was what I was doing.

Read carefully:

If Stevie was the biggest draw, her solo tours would've done much better than way under $20 million. She can't fill arenas or ampitheatres in general. Fleetwood Mac can. And they can sell out on a consistent basis.

If Lindsey was not a part of the Mac and it was only Stevie, John, and Mick, that tour would sell like a Stevie solo tour.

If Stevie was not a part of the Mac, and it was only Lindsey, John, and Mick, that tour would probably sell like a Stevie solo tour: $14 million.

In summary, it is the combined chemistry of Lindsey, Stevie, Mick, and John that makes Fleetwood Mac touring so successful. Not Stevie, not Lindsey, ALL of them.


im sorry but i dont believe that if it were just john, mick and lindsey , that it would sell even half as well as a stevie solo tour....

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
they werent cheap for the time, and i thought she did well... as for group sales, the FM tickets although they may seem high to us the buyer, but if you compare them to the stones or eagles its a discount...

Looking at the spotty tour record, I'd say she did mediocre, not well.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
im sorry but i dont believe that if it were just john, mick and lindsey , that it would sell even half as well as a stevie solo tour....

Let me adjust my last number. Her last tour didn't do $14, it was $10. And I firmly believe that if it was Lindsey, Mick, and John, it would sell at least that.

[dissention]

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
EDIT: Look I think that what we are all trying to say is that people would probably not pay $A200 to see Mick and John. OK - we are in agreeance!!! :laugh:

:laugh: Always the voice of reason. :laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous rationale.

We have no way to assert how many people would attend a Lindsey Buckingham solo tour. We can't use numbers from the OOTC tour because that was more than ten years ago.

The biggest draw means who draws the most people to the venue. Who draws the most people? FLEETWOOD MAC.


why cant you use numbers from the ootc tour, if you can compare stevies old tours sales with her current tours.? go back and use a tour of stevies from 10 years ago and compare it to lindseys and see how those compare, but i think we know the answer. and why is it that stevie toured will all her cds and lindsey didnt. the demand was not out there for him. i love ootc, and i love him with fm, but his other 2 cds did nothing for me. ill be honest i was really hoping for a new solo from him , now it probably wont ever happen he worked on this material for years and now its more talk of the next fm cd instead of my solo cd. too bad

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
EDIT: Look I think that what we are all trying to say is that people would probably not pay $A200 to see Mick and John. OK - we are in agreeance!!! :laugh:

That, I will agree with.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by teedee
im sorry but i dont believe that if it were just john, mick and lindsey , that it would sell even half as well as a stevie solo tour....

I'll agree with that, too. However, they could mislead people by not exactly being upfront about Stevie's lack of attendance for the tour. But then again, how stupid can you get, right?

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by teedee
why cant you use numbers from the ootc tour, if you can compare stevies old tours sales with her current tours.? go back and use a tour of stevies from 10 years ago and compare it to lindseys and see how those compare, but i think we know the answer. and why is it that stevie toured will all her cds and lindsey didnt. the demand was not out there for him. i love ootc, and i love him with fm, but his other 2 cds did nothing for me. ill be honest i was really hoping for a new solo from him , now it probably wont ever happen he worked on this material for years and now its more talk of the next fm cd instead of my solo cd. too bad

Well, I was trying to compare the timespace tour with ootc, but i have no idea what the numbers are. however, if he really just did small 1000 people clubs, then he couldn't have made 1/4th of what stevie made, in my oppinion.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
But do you believe that they'd be able to leave out Lindsey songs and tour successfully? Hell no. It is the combination of Stevie and Lindsey. If it was just Stevie it would bomb and Mick and John would have a ****ty income.

As for the OOTC prices, they were quite low. Under $50, I think. He only toured small clubs, but almost all of them sold out.


i would hope he would be able to sell out a small club ? and ootc was his best work,, now how was stevie doing 10 years ago compared to his tour? thats a fair comparison isnt it. ?

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by teedee
i would hope he would be able to sell out a small club ? and ootc was his best work,, now how was stevie doing 10 years ago compared to his tour? thats a fair comparison isnt it. ?

Yup, she sold better, i imagine, and she was promotiing what is known as her worst album, Street Angel. :distress:

So Stevie's worst sold better then Lindsey's best.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
You're hell bent on proving that Stevie is the big draw, but it can't be done, my friend.

You can't compare clubs that seat 850-1,000 people to an ampitheatre that seats 10,000-20,000. But if you want to, Lindsey sold out many, many shows and Stevie didn't sell out one on the Timespace tour. ;)


you can most definately use this to compare, the fact is lindsey wouldnt have been able to sell out amphithearters that is why he had a club tour. and please dont say that we dont know this , if he could have he would have believe me. lol but then to try and compare the sell outs. omg you are funny, i think you arethe one who is hell bent on trying to convince ppl..please if stevie was touring clubs the tour would never come to an end she would be booked and sold out for a very long time..

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by teedee
you can most definately use this to compare, the fact is lindsey wouldnt have been able to sell out amphithearters that is why he had a club tour. and please dont say that we dont know this , if he could have he would have believe me. lol but then to try and compare the sell outs. omg you are funny, i think you arethe one who is hell bent on trying to convince ppl..please if stevie was touring clubs the tour would never come to an end she would be booked and sold out for a very long time..

If Stevie did clubs you would have to know someone important to get tickets :cool:

And no offense dissension, but i think you don't give stevie enough credit :woohoo:

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Lux
I'm really confused now.

Shall I just add that Lindsey is indeed a God.......well atleast the messiah.

I have a question, do you like Stevie?

[Johnny Stew]

Yikes, those last six pages gave me a headache!

Anyway, here are a few things I think it's totally safe to say, whether anyone else wants to agree or not:

# 1. When tours from the same time period are compared, Stevie is the bigger solo concert draw. But her solo tours are no match for Fleetwood Mac tours, which will obviously draw bigger crowds, because even though Stevie has had the more successful solo career, Lindsey and/or Christine also bring a heap of classic songs to the equation... thus, giving the audience more bang for their buck.

# 2. When one member is missing from the concert equation (Lindsey from the Shakin' The Cage & Behind The Mask tours, Christine from the Say You Will tour) the band can still draw huge crowds, but not quite as huge as when the three leads are all present.
And when all three are missing, the band is forced to do the Summer-fest nostalgia circuit (ouch).

# 3. Six pages of haggling is mind-numbing... especially when you're not one of the ones in the middle of the debate! :laugh:

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Yikes, those last six pages gave me a headache!

This entire thread can give anyone a headache. Almost thirty pages in a matter of less then a week! And it seems like every five pages the topic changes to something completely different. 5 pages about the doc, 5 pages about bob dylan, 5 pages of bickering, 5 pages of comparing lindsey to stevie, 5 pages of "switching tenses".... this is a very strange thread!

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
# 2. When one member is missing from the concert equation (Lindsey from the Shakin' The Cage & Behind The Mask tours, Christine from the Say You Will tour) the band can still draw huge crowds, but not quite as huge as when the three leads are all present.
And when all three are missing, the band is forced to do the Summer-fest nostalgia circuit (ouch).

Is that true though? I thought the SYW tour has been more successful then the dance was (when all five members were there)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Is that true though? I thought the SYW tour has been more successful then the dance was (when all five members were there) The 'Dance' tour could have easily gone on for about four times as long as it did. It was hugely successful.

But they're doing great business this time out, too... otherwise they wouldn't continue this for so long.

[wildangel]

hey dis where are you getting the #s for stevie's tours? I cant find them online anywhere.
I went to her Enchanted and TISL shows at Blossom in Cleveland and they were full and to her show at the DTE center in Detroit that was full also. I don't expect her to compete with FM tours, (that is just silly) ofcourse the the other members pull in additional people. Stevie will always have a loyal fanbase that will attend her shows, so I am sure she made decent money and the tours were considered a success. For me a stevie show is just as good as a mac show so I am happy to get the discount:laugh:

[Sugar]

Lindsey should next colloborate with Christina Agulaira and Gwen Stefani (since no one really cares about the other guys in that band either) because that would then be a draw that would eclipse anything Fleetwood Mac (or its parts) have seen since the early 80's! And because the draw would be so huge, it would obviously translate in some of the highest quality material for Lindsey to date! Hopefully Lindsey wouldn't bring the quality of their music down since he is, admittedly, less of a draw.

That is the hypothesis we're working with here...right folks? ;)

[David]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Yup, she sold better, i imagine, and she was promotiing what is known as her worst album, Street Angel. :distress:

So Stevie's worst sold better then Lindsey's best. Apples & oranges (subjective quality of work vs. objective sales). It's only an opinion that "Street Angel" is Stevie's worst album (I happen to think it's one of her three best) or that "Cradle" is Lindsey's best album (I think "Law & Order" is his best). Sales, on the other hand, are just a verifiable number that isn't defined by someone's opinion.

I can't believe (on second thought, yes I can) that the argument over which member sells more stuff is ongoing. Stevie is, by far, the single biggest selling member in the band -- from 1967 to the present -- as a solo act. She's also the single biggest draw as a concert act. I've seen Lindsey perform solo, Christine perform solo, the Zoo perform, Peter perform & Bob Welch perform, & Stevie in her heyday drew the biggest crowds throughout the entire run of several tours.

But all this sales talk is sordid. Fans often browbeat the band for being too commercial, & then turn around & talk about sales & concert tickets sold as if the total number of hoi polloi out there buying FM albums or attending shows lent some sort of strength to the argument of a particular member's artistry. I see it the other way: the less you sell in the commercial climate of pop music, the more likely you are to create something extraordinary & not just disposable, easily digested radio fodder. Of course, being a poor seller isn't a guarantee of that, but it's often a sign.

Some of Stevie's best work just didn't appeal to as many people as some of her ordinary work did. "Stand Back" was a bigger chart hit than "Rhiannon," wasn't it?

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Let me adjust my last number. Her last tour didn't do $14, it was $10. And I firmly believe that if it was Lindsey, Mick, and John, it would sell at least that.

i firmly believe that it wouldnt.

[teedee]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
because he wouldn't be able to fill the first ten rows of an arena is my guess. :laugh:

Seriously though, Lindsey Buckingham is not exactly a household name. Stevie Nicks is. So Stevie can play at amps and arenas, not that lindsey is any less of a musician- just not as commercial as the queen of rock and roll, stevie nicks!


I know , i was just making a point as to
"how Come"

[David]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I wish Stevie weren't as popular as she is. But then how would you win Stevie vs. Lindsey arguments on the Ledge?

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Stevie couldn't fill the first ten rows of an ampitheatre based on tour data.

That's where you're wrong; Stevie can't fill arenas, even during the Timespace tour or other tours after that. I mean, she even played the Ohio State Fair. ;)

now your just talking crazy. i dont think your tour data is too accurate. but i really dont go by what critics or record company's say was a success and what was a disaster. as for what the naked eye can see, i have never imagined a full house when in fact it was half empty, i have just never been at a stevie concert and saw half the seats empty, never.

[Sugar]

Someone on the burnish board posted that Vanessa Carleton just leaked that Lindsey has a guitar solo on the first single from her next album. Not my first choice, but it should be interesting, no?

[David]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
i'll bet timespace was a more successful tour and that is regarded as her worst timeperiod in the business. It was her worst timespace in the business.

[sodascouts]

I'm not quite sure what the point of all this was, but I think most of us know the obvious: 1) Stevie is a bigger draw than Lindsey when they are solo. 2) Stevie and Lindsey together is the biggest draw of all. The latter does not make the former any less true, despite all the rhetorical circles we dance around in. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality, although many people are quick to utilize the good old hypothetical scenario when reality isn't working for them.

Lindsey is so underappreciated. What he's done for Rhiannon and Gypsy, to name two "classic" examples, really took them to another level that they would never have acheived without him. However, immediately assuming that this is/would be true for anything Stevie ever did is unfair. Would Lindsey himself even make that claim? I doubt it - I don't think he's full of himself.

I will continue to be brutally honest and say that within Fleetwood Mac, it is apparent that Lindsey helps out Stevie on her songs much more than vice versa. On the other hand, Stevie can and has thrived without Lindsey - again, the truth of one doesn't cancel out the truth of the other.

What gets me is why people will try to minimize or even obliterate the contributions of one member in order to build up the other. It's something that's been happening around here for a long time, and it always saddens me. We all have our opinion as to who's "better" (except me, I love them both the same lol) but why must we tear down the one who comes in second?

A timeless question that will never be answered! lol

[David]

Originally posted by teedee
now your just talking crazy. i dont think your tour data is too accurate. but i really dont go by what critics or record company's say was a success and what was a disaster. as for what the naked eye can see, i have never imagined a full house when in fact it was half empty, i have just never been at a stevie concert and saw half the seats empty, never. I have. Arco Arena in north Sacramento, Aug. 29, 1994.

But it was still cool!

[David]

Originally posted by sodascouts
What gets me is why people will try to minimize or even obliterate the contributions of one member in order to build up the other. It's something that's been happening around here for a long time, and it always saddens me. We all have our opinion as to who's "better" (except me, I love them both the same lol) but why must we tear down the one who comes in second? And then there's poor Christine . . . . who always comes in second, or third, or fourth . . . .

Poor Chris. You're the "also-ran" of Fleetwood Mac.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by David
And then there's poor Christine . . . . who always comes in second, or third, or fourth . . . .

Poor Chris. You're the "also-ran" of Fleetwood Mac.

Now that you mention it, has there ever been a real Stevie v. Chris debate, or Lindsey v. Chris debate? Not in recent memory, that's for sure! Are Chris solo fans just nicer? lol

[Sugar]

Well now that this thread has completly veered off course...

I just wanted to say that I have been listening mainly Pre-1975 FM these days and I have been really blown away from some of Chris' stuff. Mostly the Penguin album these days, but MTM and FG too. Her stuff post-75 really seemed to slow down. Seems to me she hit her stride before L&S even joined the band. Wouldn't it have been cool to hear Dissatisfied, Remember Me, Just Crazy Love, Believe Me alongside The Chain, Gypsy, Not That Funny, Second Hand News, Landslide...

She coulda' been a playa' :)

[David]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Are Chris solo fans just nicer? lol I think we're just nicer . . . & fewer by about 400 million.

[teedee]

Originally posted by Lux
the draw is the combination of the two


i think this line up of fleetwood mac even tho chris isnt present is a big draw in it self. all this comparison of lindsey vs. stevie, i would have to say is mostly in the case of comparing their solo works. and stevie being the most successful on a solo basis is why i was saying she has such a big draw at the fleetwood mac shows. but i will agree its definately the combo of seeing the two of them together.

i will admit the chemistry is still their on stage, and the first time i saw the show i got chills seeing them embrace and when he kisses her after landslide and what not,
but when i saw the show the next three times and they did almost the exact same thing, i thought ok, the first time they did it at the first live show was probably really heart felt, ( i dont mean that every time after wasnt heartfelt) but i just felt it became part of the act, ( please dont mis interpert that as a negative thing, for even i still get chills when i see it)but it would be nice if they mixed up their little speeches instead of saying exactly the same thing. ill go duck now.....lol.

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by Sugar
Someone on the burnish board posted that Vanessa Carleton just leaked that Lindsey has a guitar solo on the first single from her next album. Not my first choice, but it should be interesting, no?

Thanks for the info!! Can't wait to hear it! :thumbsup:

[HomerMcvie]

Seems to me she hit her stride before L&S even joined the band. Wouldn't it have been cool to hear Dissatisfied, Remember Me, Just Crazy Love, Believe Me alongside The Chain, Gypsy, Not That Funny, Second Hand News, Landslide...
Don't forget WHY, the greatest song of all time!
Her stride was still in full step later. C'mon, YMLF, Don't Stop, Hold Me, Little Lies, Love Shines........that's GOLD , baby!
That IS FM.:nod:

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I'm not quite sure what the point of all this was, but I think most of us know the obvious: 1) Stevie is a bigger draw than Lindsey when they are solo. 2) Stevie and Lindsey together is the biggest draw of all. The latter does not make the former any less true, despite all the rhetorical circles we dance around in. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality, although many people are quick to utilize the good old hypothetical scenario when reality isn't working for them.

Lindsey is so underappreciated. What he's done for Rhiannon and Gypsy, to name two "classic" examples, really took them to another level that they would never have acheived without him. However, immediately assuming that this is/would be true for anything Stevie ever did is unfair. Would Lindsey himself even make that claim? I doubt it - I don't think he's full of himself.

I will continue to be brutally honest and say that within Fleetwood Mac, it is apparent that Lindsey helps out Stevie on her songs much more than vice versa. On the other hand, Stevie can and has thrived without Lindsey - again, the truth of one doesn't cancel out the truth of the other.

What gets me is why people will try to minimize or even obliterate the contributions of one member in order to build up the other. It's something that's been happening around here for a long time, and it always saddens me. We all have our opinion as to who's "better" (except me, I love them both the same lol) but why must we tear down the one who comes in second?

A timeless question that will never be answered! lol

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't usually agree with you, Nancy, but you sure hit the nail on the head. Kudos to you.

:)

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
but i will agree its definately the combo of seeing the two of them together.

That's what I was trying to get across at last night. ;) :laugh:

[face of glass]

Originally posted by teedee
i have just never been at a stevie concert and saw half the seats empty, never.

Hey, it can happen. ;)

From the FM Legacy Pollstar info:

TWH tour:

06/23.....Norfolk, VA.....supported by Joe Walsh
6,082 of 11,300 (54%).....$80,116

07/11.....Atlanta, GA.....supported by Joe Walsh
8,307 of 17,019 (49%).....$111,646

TOSOTM tour:

09/08.....Bristol, CT.....supported by The Hooters
10,744 of 20,000 (54%).....$226,485

09/17.....East Troy, WI.....supported by The Hooters
6,161 of 25,000 (25%).....$137,910

10/09.....Austin, TX.....supported by The Hooters
5,566 of 11,226 (50%).....$86,331

Timespace tour:

07/09.....Houston, TX.....supported by Billy Falcon
4,314 of 8,372 (52%).....$79,465

07/11.....Dallas, TX.....supported by Billy Falcon
7,390 of 19,479 (38%).....$113,795

07/13.....Charlotte, NC....supported by Peter Wolf, Three Dog Night, Billy Falcon, Blackfoot
4,871 of 18,734 (26%).....$59,305

07/26.....Philadelphia, PA.....supported by Billy Falcon
7,260 of 14,570 (50%).....$188,990

08/05.....Burgettstown, PA.....supported by Billy Falcon
5,846 of 20,089 (29%).....$88,226

Street Angel tour:

07/29.....Burgettstown, PA.....supported by Darden Smith
4,624 of 15,713 (29%).....$112,952

07/30.....Philadelphia, PA.....supported by Darden Smith
5,741 of 13,243 (43%).....$154,306

08/04.....Raleigh, NC.....supported by Darden Smith
3,875 of 18,319 (21%).....$75,282

08/10.....Cuyahoga Falls, OH.....supported by Darden Smith
5,478 of 18,781 (29%).....$79,762

08/16.....Maryland Heights, MO.....supported by Darden Smith
7,792 of 19,949 (39%).....$65,200

08/17.....Bonner Springs, KS.....supported by Darden Smith
5,848 of 18,000 (32%).....$50,080

08/20.....Columbus, OH.....supported by Darden Smith
4,911 of 11,000 (45%).....$61,744

09/10.....Dallas, TX.....supported by Darden Smith
9,374 of 20,111 (47%).....$102,384

Enchanted tour:

05/29.....Clarkston, MI.....supported by Boz Scaggs
8,654 of 15,347 (56%).....$336,693

05/30.....Tinley Park, IL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
5,475 of 11,203 (49%).....$241,834

06/05.....Columbus, OH.....supported by Boz Scaggs
7,817 of 20,000 (39%).....$147,540

06/06.....Noblesville, IN.....supported by Boz Scaggs
6,097 of 20,000 (30%).....$200,890

06/12.....Mansfield, MA.....supported by Boz Scaggs
10,745 of 19,900 (54%).....$410,524

06/13.....Holmdel, NJ.....supported by Boz Scaggs
9,437 of 17,078 (55%).....$328,672

06/19.....Camden, NJ.....supported by Boz Scaggs
10,681 of 24,916 (43%).....$289,861

06/23.....Virginia Beach, VA.....supported by Boz Scaggs
8,504 of 20,000 (43%).....$205,152

06/26.....Raleigh, NC.....supported by Boz Scaggs
10,802 of 20,027 (54%).....$236,453

06/29.....Pelham, AL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
4,729 of 11,000 (43%).....$144,310

07/01.....Orlando, FL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
3,962 of 17,500 (23%).....$182,015

07/03.....Tampa, FL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
2,815 of 20,500 (14%).....$78,820

07/18.....Houston, TX.....supported by Boz Scaggs
5,532 of 12,814 (43%).....$268,588

07/21.....Englewood, CO.....supported by Boz Scaggs
6,971 of 17,162 (41%).....$231,937

07/23.....Phoenix, AZ.....supported by Boz Scaggs
2,777 of 19,000 (15%).....$70,813

07/25.....Las Vegas, NV.....supported by Boz Scaggs
6,900 of 13,000 (53%).....$345,360

07/31.....Irvine, CA.....supported by Michael McDonald
7,626 of 15,416 (49%).....$325,074

08/07.....George, WA.....supported by Boz Scaggs
4,864 of 13,500 (36%).....$232,480

TISL tour:

07/11.....Cincinnati, OH.....supported by Sheryl Crow, Jeffrey Gaines
7,380 of 20,500 (36%).....$292,887

07/13.....Hartford, CT.....supported by Sheryl Crow, Jeffrey Gaines
10,765 of 24,262 (44%).....$406,463

07/17.....Camden, NJ.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
9,344 of 24,880 (38%).....$437,449

07/28.....Bristow, VA..........supported by Jeffrey Gaines
8,637 of 22,539 (38%).....$413,649

08/08.....Englewood, CO.....supported by Bob Schneider
7,922 of 16,126 (49%).....$354,116

08/11.....Portland, OR.....supported by Bob Schneider
4,219 of 8,273 (51%).....$267,952

09/04.....Virginia Beach, VA.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
8,403 of 20,000 (42%).....$301,225

09/05.....Raleigh, NC.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
5,877 of 20,000 (29%).....$192,819

09/07.....Charlotte, NC.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
9,141 of 18,216 (50%).....$317,465

I ain’t trying to continue the war here but the trend has been definitely increasing with the latest tours. Or maybe there’s areas in the USA that aren’t too interested in her.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by David
And then there's poor Christine . . . . who always comes in second, or third, or fourth . . . .

Poor Chris. You're the "also-ran" of Fleetwood Mac.

And then what you wrote in the “I miss Christine!” thread:

Christine was never Keith Emerson or Billy Joel. Her keyboards on FM albums didn't occupy a central place like the playing of those guys. In fact, the parts she recorded on most of the songs were generally a subtle addition to the rhythm, not a lavish piano arrangement in the spotlight. Even on "Songbird," you could argue (& I do) that the piano arrangement & performance are a subdued rhythm guitar effect (which helps it blend so nicely with the actual acoustic guitar on the track).

I think that’s the main reason, she doesn’t grab one by the neck and demand the attention, she does her own subtleties in the background. She didn’t take up the most notable space, Buckingham and Nicks did. Lindsey’s parts in Christine’s songs often seem to dominate the non-rhythm section sides of the soundscape.

She is a classy lady, after all. She favoured non-intrusive keyboard tones and rarely had the rawer side of passion in her singing.

My point? Even though Buckingham and Nicks have always had subtleties in their approaches, they also always knew when to let go vocally or guitarwise. That’s something the band hadn’t really had since the Peter Green days (even Bob Welch’s “rawer” material with Paris never sounded that raw to me), this tapping into the unknown depths of one’s psyche.

Hence Chris suffers in popularity and in the passion of the fans but I guess that’s why some people prefer her over the others.

Originally posted by HomerMcvie
Don't forget WHY, the greatest song of all time!

For me it ain’t any better or worse than any of her other songs. It won the Legacy poll with everyone giving it tens only because it’s a good song with strings on it. Surely that makes it the greatest. ;)

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by The Tower

But a lot of Bob Dylan's stuff is crap, too- so I wouldn't consider him a "poet".



It's all in the way he turns a phrase. An acquired taste to be sure.:)

[HomerMcvie]

07/23.....Phoenix, AZ.....supported by Boz Scaggs 2,777 of 19,000 (15%).....$70,813
OUCH! That's gotta hurt!
Can you imagine looking out at 15% of capacity? In your hometown.

[teedee]

Originally posted by face of glass
Hey, it can happen. ;)

From the FM Legacy Pollstar info:

TWH tour:

06/23.....Norfolk, VA.....supported by Joe Walsh
6,082 of 11,300 (54%).....$80,116

07/11.....Atlanta, GA.....supported by Joe Walsh
8,307 of 17,019 (49%).....$111,646

TOSOTM tour:

09/08.....Bristol, CT.....supported by The Hooters
10,744 of 20,000 (54%).....$226,485

09/17.....East Troy, WI.....supported by The Hooters
6,161 of 25,000 (25%).....$137,910

10/09.....Austin, TX.....supported by The Hooters
5,566 of 11,226 (50%).....$86,331

Timespace tour:

07/09.....Houston, TX.....supported by Billy Falcon
4,314 of 8,372 (52%).....$79,465

07/11.....Dallas, TX.....supported by Billy Falcon
7,390 of 19,479 (38%).....$113,795

07/13.....Charlotte, NC....supported by Peter Wolf, Three Dog Night, Billy Falcon, Blackfoot
4,871 of 18,734 (26%).....$59,305

07/26.....Philadelphia, PA.....supported by Billy Falcon
7,260 of 14,570 (50%).....$188,990

08/05.....Burgettstown, PA.....supported by Billy Falcon
5,846 of 20,089 (29%).....$88,226

Street Angel tour:

07/29.....Burgettstown, PA.....supported by Darden Smith
4,624 of 15,713 (29%).....$112,952

07/30.....Philadelphia, PA.....supported by Darden Smith
5,741 of 13,243 (43%).....$154,306

08/04.....Raleigh, NC.....supported by Darden Smith
3,875 of 18,319 (21%).....$75,282

08/10.....Cuyahoga Falls, OH.....supported by Darden Smith
5,478 of 18,781 (29%).....$79,762

08/16.....Maryland Heights, MO.....supported by Darden Smith
7,792 of 19,949 (39%).....$65,200

08/17.....Bonner Springs, KS.....supported by Darden Smith
5,848 of 18,000 (32%).....$50,080

08/20.....Columbus, OH.....supported by Darden Smith
4,911 of 11,000 (45%).....$61,744

09/10.....Dallas, TX.....supported by Darden Smith
9,374 of 20,111 (47%).....$102,384

Enchanted tour:

05/29.....Clarkston, MI.....supported by Boz Scaggs
8,654 of 15,347 (56%).....$336,693

05/30.....Tinley Park, IL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
5,475 of 11,203 (49%).....$241,834

06/05.....Columbus, OH.....supported by Boz Scaggs
7,817 of 20,000 (39%).....$147,540

06/06.....Noblesville, IN.....supported by Boz Scaggs
6,097 of 20,000 (30%).....$200,890

06/12.....Mansfield, MA.....supported by Boz Scaggs
10,745 of 19,900 (54%).....$410,524

06/13.....Holmdel, NJ.....supported by Boz Scaggs
9,437 of 17,078 (55%).....$328,672

06/19.....Camden, NJ.....supported by Boz Scaggs
10,681 of 24,916 (43%).....$289,861

06/23.....Virginia Beach, VA.....supported by Boz Scaggs
8,504 of 20,000 (43%).....$205,152

06/26.....Raleigh, NC.....supported by Boz Scaggs
10,802 of 20,027 (54%).....$236,453

06/29.....Pelham, AL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
4,729 of 11,000 (43%).....$144,310

07/01.....Orlando, FL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
3,962 of 17,500 (23%).....$182,015

07/03.....Tampa, FL.....supported by Boz Scaggs
2,815 of 20,500 (14%).....$78,820

07/18.....Houston, TX.....supported by Boz Scaggs
5,532 of 12,814 (43%).....$268,588

07/21.....Englewood, CO.....supported by Boz Scaggs
6,971 of 17,162 (41%).....$231,937

07/23.....Phoenix, AZ.....supported by Boz Scaggs
2,777 of 19,000 (15%).....$70,813

07/25.....Las Vegas, NV.....supported by Boz Scaggs
6,900 of 13,000 (53%).....$345,360

07/31.....Irvine, CA.....supported by Michael McDonald
7,626 of 15,416 (49%).....$325,074

08/07.....George, WA.....supported by Boz Scaggs
4,864 of 13,500 (36%).....$232,480

TISL tour:

07/11.....Cincinnati, OH.....supported by Sheryl Crow, Jeffrey Gaines
7,380 of 20,500 (36%).....$292,887

07/13.....Hartford, CT.....supported by Sheryl Crow, Jeffrey Gaines
10,765 of 24,262 (44%).....$406,463

07/17.....Camden, NJ.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
9,344 of 24,880 (38%).....$437,449

07/28.....Bristow, VA..........supported by Jeffrey Gaines
8,637 of 22,539 (38%).....$413,649

08/08.....Englewood, CO.....supported by Bob Schneider
7,922 of 16,126 (49%).....$354,116

08/11.....Portland, OR.....supported by Bob Schneider
4,219 of 8,273 (51%).....$267,952

09/04.....Virginia Beach, VA.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
8,403 of 20,000 (42%).....$301,225

09/05.....Raleigh, NC.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
5,877 of 20,000 (29%).....$192,819

09/07.....Charlotte, NC.....supported by Jeffrey Gaines
9,141 of 18,216 (50%).....$317,465

I ain’t trying to continue the war here but the trend has been definitely increasing with the latest tours. Or maybe there’s areas in the USA that aren’t too interested in her.



im not saying it cant happen, and according to your list,, i was at some of those shows venues like mansfield and hartford to name a few and those venues have lawn seats, they crame as many ppl who will buy them, but to say that the actual pavillions were half full, when i looked around as i always do ( force of habit) they were not. i think some of those figures in what full capacity is when there is a lawn in volved , can be misleading.. we all know lawn seats dont always sell out and even when they do sell out, you can always buy a lawn seat.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Lindsey live, back in the days of BN (prepare to be unimpressed. He had not yet reached his full sexy hair potential).

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/bn/images/SnLBTWRS3.jpg

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/bn/images/SnLBuckNicksConcert1.jpg

Compare to the photo in question:

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/sn/images/SNicksDR07.JPG

Except that in the photo in question, the man is wearing glasses.:)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by David
I see it the other way: the less you sell in the commercial climate of pop music, the more likely you are to create something extraordinary & not just disposable, easily digested radio fodder. Of course, being a poor seller isn't a guarantee of that, but it's often a sign.

And that pretty much sums up this discussion.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Sugar
Lindsey should next colloborate with Christina Agulaira and Gwen Stefani (since no one really cares about the other guys in that band either) because that would then be a draw that would eclipse anything Fleetwood Mac (or its parts) have seen since the early 80's! And because the draw would be so huge, it would obviously translate in some of the highest quality material for Lindsey to date! Hopefully Lindsey wouldn't bring the quality of their music down since he is, admittedly, less of a draw.

That is the hypothesis we're working with here...right folks? ;)

It is the hypothesis that we are working with, but these artists don't sell as much as Stevie does. No Doubt tickets cost like thirty bucks on ticketmaster, not the 125 fm charges with stevie.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
True enough, but there's also a difference between getting fired and choosing to leave your job, no?

True, but weren't some of Stevie's songs offered up for previous FM projects?

Anyway, the term "reject" implies that something isn't good enough to cut it, and I was simply explaining that Stevie's songs were no mere "rejects"... they were songs that she felt would be better suited to other projects. The choices were made with consideration to the material, not because the material was of a lesser quality.

Of course "reject" has a negative connotation, but so what? The record company at first rejected one of Willie Nelson's biggest-selling albums. The record company at first rejected Cheap Trick's At Budokan. Didn't make them bad in either case, did it?

Also, are you sure Stevie "pulled" the songs from the projects in all cases? I have my doubts about that.

If you still feel that makes them "rejects," then by the same token, this batch of Lindsey's songs are also rejects, because Warner Bros. wasn't interested in them.

Part of this was addressed above. But, Johnny, you're going to have to show me exactly where you saw or read that Warners wasn't interested in the songs. If anything, the documentary made it clear that it ultimately was Lindsey's decision.

And with all due respect, I still think it's silly to dislike a song over bad grammar, because, again, that technicality would wipe out a lot of great rock & roll songs.

Eh, so it is silly. I have my quirks, dammit! But look, here's the thing: Remember that Soul Asylum song? "And the phone hasn't rang for so long..." Well, in that case I kinda closed my eyes to it and liked the song anyway. It was Soul Asylum, a bunch of guys from Chicago who had never made it big and fit a certain kind of rebel persona. As for Stevie, at the age of 50-something, I expect a level of sophistication that would prevent her from saying "I should've ran..." So, yes, it depends on the writer. And if she doesn't know the grammar is incorrect, someone should have pointed it out to her. If someone did and she dismissed with her "I'm a poet" comments, well, that's just lame.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by wildangel
I usually just lurk but after reading the statement by carne about stevie bringing lindsey songs down I had to reply
As a longtime lurker I am used to carne's usual lindsey blowjobbing but this is a just ridiculous. All she did was put BG vocals on a few of his tracks. They don't sound much different. After hearing her demos on the doc. and loving the demo versions of Smile at You and Running Through the Garden I would say that you ( that is I, YOU, ME, HE, SHE pick your person and tense;) ) could make a case that lindsey brought stevies songs down :eek: :rolleyes:

I'd have to agree with you there. The demos have a nice kick to them while the finished versions sound over produced, especially Goodbye Baby, Silver Girl and Smile at You. I love what Chris Lord Alge did with Destiny Rules. It's still my favorite song and sounds like a classic FM/Stevie song. It should have been a single, IMO.:)

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Except that in the photo in question, the man is wearing glasses.:)

What are you doing replying to this golden oldie? Keep up, girl! lol

I think it's Waddy, too, hence my little hair comparison post, lol. Lindsey's hair never looked like that, not even in the BN days, as a couple people were guessing. And Lindsey is definitely too vain to wear glasses at a concert. ;)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by David
And then there's poor Christine . . . . who always comes in second, or third, or fourth . . . .

Poor Chris. You're the "also-ran" of Fleetwood Mac.

Christine is just above all of this. She is another level of greatness! :nod:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
im not saying it cant happen, and according to your list,, i was at some of those shows venues like mansfield and hartford to name a few and those venues have lawn seats, they crame as many ppl who will buy them.

Eh, excuses. The numbers don't lie.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I wish Stevie weren't as popular as she is. I would much rather see her at an intimate club setting, as opposed to a big concert amp.

Stick around. Soon enough, she'll be killing them in Vegas lounges.

[teedee]

Originally posted by HomerMcvie
OUCH! That's gotta hurt!
Can you imagine looking out at 15% of capacity? In your hometown.

im sorry but i just cant believe that attendance count.... dont you think if you were looking at a 19,000 seater and only 3000.00 sold, dont you think that they would cancel that date? or at least move it to a smaller venue. i find that really hard to believe that only 2777 was counted.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Don't you just adore him?

It's a bit of a dark-horse, but I think my favorite Bowie song would have to be "Absolute Beginners."
But you really can't go wrong where the Thin White Duke is concerned. :nod:

Just bought The Best Of...I'm really enjoying it.:)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Eh, excuses. The numbers don't lie. You're right, they don't....

Lindsey's Out Of The Cradle Tour Pollstar Data:

02/22.....Los Angeles, CA
1,796 of 2,200 (82%).....$40,410

03/09.....Ventura, CA
850 of 850 (100%).....$19,975

03/10.....San Francisco, CA
627 of 627 (100%).....$12,540

03/12.....Portland, OR
689 of 1,120 (62%).....$10,162

03/16.....Seattle, WA
1,161 of 1,300 (89%).....$18,278

03/17.....St. Paul, MN
740 of 946 (78%).....$12,574

03/18.....Chicago, IL
750 of 750 (100%).....$15,000

03/22.....Detroit, MI
364 of 427 (85%).....$5,285

03/25.....New Britain, CT
750 of 1,200 (63%).....$12,080

03/28.....Philadelphia, PA
722 of 810 (89%).....$13,357

03/31.....New York, NY
1,052 of 1,384 (76%).....$31,560

04/02.....Atlanta, GA
704 of 704 (100%).....$12,320

04/07.....Boulder, CO
856 of 856 (100%).....$15,280

04/09.....Phoenix, AZ.....supported by Susan James
576 of 576 (100%).....$12,140

04/10.....Las Vegas, NV
447 of 700 (64%).....$8,555

Even Stevie's lowest selling shows were doing up to four times those numbers.
So let's not go there, huh? ;)

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're right, they don't....

Lindsey's Out Of The Cradle Tour Pollstar Data:

02/22.....Los Angeles, CA
1,796 of 2,200 (82%).....$40,410

03/09.....Ventura, CA
850 of 850 (100%).....$19,975

03/10.....San Francisco, CA
627 of 627 (100%).....$12,540

03/12.....Portland, OR
689 of 1,120 (62%).....$10,162

03/16.....Seattle, WA
1,161 of 1,300 (89%).....$18,278

03/17.....St. Paul, MN
740 of 946 (78%).....$12,574

03/18.....Chicago, IL
750 of 750 (100%).....$15,000

03/22.....Detroit, MI
364 of 427 (85%).....$5,285

03/25.....New Britain, CT
750 of 1,200 (63%).....$12,080

03/28.....Philadelphia, PA
722 of 810 (89%).....$13,357

03/31.....New York, NY
1,052 of 1,384 (76%).....$31,560

04/02.....Atlanta, GA
704 of 704 (100%).....$12,320

04/07.....Boulder, CO
856 of 856 (100%).....$15,280

04/09.....Phoenix, AZ.....supported by Susan James
576 of 576 (100%).....$12,140

04/10.....Las Vegas, NV
447 of 700 (64%).....$8,555

Even Stevie's lowest selling shows were doing up to four times those numbers.
So let's not go there, huh? ;)

Yes, good point! So is Stevie's side winning now? This has turned into a game!

[diamondsnake]

Where is everyone finding these numbers?

[Sugar]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
It is the hypothesis that we are working with, but these artists don't sell as much as Stevie does. No Doubt tickets cost like thirty bucks on ticketmaster, not the 125 fm charges with stevie.

Ahhh and now we've entered another layer...are we talking about cash revenue or are we talking about (as we used to say in the theatre) "butts in seats"?

Doesn't really matter, just like it doesn't matter specifically who I picked to colloborate with Lindsey. Enter the name of whomever is really hot right now. The sheer fact that you agreed you are equating revenue with quality ends this part of the debate for me.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Yes, good point! So is Stevie's side winning now? This has turned into a game! No matter how it might look, I'm not on anyone's "side," and I'm not trying to win anything.

I just think the numbers game is a silly one, because we can all find numbers that back up our particular little arguments... especially if we wish to ignore other numbers that might prove us wrong.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
True, but weren't some of Stevie's songs offered up for previous FM projects?

[b]

Of course "reject" has a negative connotation, but so what? The record company at first rejected one of Willie Nelson's biggest-selling albums. The record company at first rejected Cheap Trick's At Budokan. Didn't make them bad in either case, did it?

Also, are you sure Stevie "pulled" the songs from the projects in all cases? I have my doubts about that.

[b]

Part of this was addressed above. But, Johnny, you're going to have to show me exactly where you saw or read that Warners wasn't interested in the songs. If anything, the documentary made it clear that it ultimately was Lindsey's decision.

[b]

Eh, so it is silly. I have my quirks, dammit! But look, here's the thing: Remember that Soul Asylum song? "And the phone hasn't rang for so long..." Well, in that case I kinda closed my eyes to it and liked the song anyway. It was Soul Asylum, a bunch of guys from Chicago who had never made it big and fit a certain kind of rebel persona. As for Stevie, at the age of 50-something, I expect a level of sophistication that would prevent her from saying "I should've ran..." So, yes, it depends on the writer. And if she doesn't know the grammar is incorrect, someone should have pointed it out to her. If someone did and she dismissed with her "I'm a poet" comments, well, that's just lame.


if stevies songs were rejected from previous FM projects, why would they look at that reject again , if they felt it wasnt worthy? now if you stated that her material didnt flow with the other material they had already chosen, i can understand that. but when you stated that stevies rejects werent up to par with lindseys new material(some 15 yrs old) and she felt she needed to write new songs, you imply a negative feeling about her songs. but then you say "so what" if lindsey uses his old songs for his new cd, hes been working on them all along. well stevies been writing all along and recording, lindsey hasnt. as for lindsey and his record company , rejecting the project. if someone says to you linds, your songs would be better suited for a fm cd, rather than a solo, (kind of like the example of and extented vacation and getting fired) and if he was so content and believed and was sure of his solo stuff being out there wouldnt he have put it out anyways,,,, just like the whole double cd with syw, he was willing to eat lots of money if it only sold 300,000,he would of been fine with that (but in the end of the doc. he stated well i have a family to raise and a house to pay for) so why didnt he go forward and let this body of work that he worked on for so long be released as a solo? watch the "pbs Rose show" where he discussed what they said to him, but of course he isnt gonna say yuou know the record comp told me no way lindsey, on tv about himself, he just states it should be a fm project, that he is not a "brand" in other words its not gonna work with just your name on it.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by teedee
im not saying it cant happen, and according to your list,, i was at some of those shows venues like mansfield and hartford to name a few and those venues have lawn seats, they crame as many ppl who will buy them, but to say that the actual pavillions were half full, when i looked around as i always do ( force of habit) they were not. i think some of those figures in what full capacity is when there is a lawn in volved , can be misleading.. we all know lawn seats dont always sell out and even when they do sell out, you can always buy a lawn seat.

Comps.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by sodascouts
What are you doing replying to this golden oldie? Keep up, girl! lol

I think it's Waddy, too, hence my little hair comparison post, lol. Lindsey's hair never looked like that, not even in the BN days, as a couple people were guessing. And Lindsey is definitely too vain to wear glasses at a concert. ;)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Sorry, this is the first chance I've had to go through this monstrous thread.:wavey:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Eh, excuses. The numbers don't lie.

depends on where you gather ones information... not that i am questioning the person who posted thos figures, but just cause somethings in print doesnt mean its true.


and as far as you stating on that earlier post about are you sure it was stevie that pulled the songs, well if you mean the lindsey pulled them, then why on earth would he be asking for those rejects back for this cd? im not saying it cant happen, but i dont see him asking for it, i think once he hears something , i think he knows either what to do with it or he just doesnt feel it. i know you stated rejects doesnt mean a song is bad , but its in the way you propose your posts, that makes everything stevie , look in a negative light, is all im saying.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by David
I see it the other way: the less you sell in the commercial climate of pop music, the more likely you are to create something extraordinary & not just disposable, easily digested radio fodder. Of course, being a poor seller isn't a guarantee of that, but it's often a sign.Originally posted by CarneVaca
And that pretty much sums up this discussion. Back around to the old Art vs. Commercialism argument again. :)

And just to reiterate, I firmly believe that Stevie has done a brilliant job of walking that thin line between expressing her offbeat artistic impulses, while wrapping her material in musical settings that can also appeal to a broader audience. :nod: :)

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
True, but weren't some of Stevie's songs offered up for previous FM projects?

[b]

Of course "reject" has a negative connotation, but so what? The record company at first rejected one of Willie Nelson's biggest-selling albums. The record company at first rejected Cheap Trick's At Budokan. Didn't make them bad in either case, did it?

Also, are you sure Stevie "pulled" the songs from the projects in all cases? I have my doubts about that.

[b]

Part of this was addressed above. But, Johnny, you're going to have to show me exactly where you saw or read that Warners wasn't interested in the songs. If anything, the documentary made it clear that it ultimately was Lindsey's decision.

[b]

Eh, so it is silly. I have my quirks, dammit! But look, here's the thing: Remember that Soul Asylum song? "And the phone hasn't rang for so long..." Well, in that case I kinda closed my eyes to it and liked the song anyway. It was Soul Asylum, a bunch of guys from Chicago who had never made it big and fit a certain kind of rebel persona. As for Stevie, at the age of 50-something, I expect a level of sophistication that would prevent her from saying "I should've ran..." So, yes, it depends on the writer. And if she doesn't know the grammar is incorrect, someone should have pointed it out to her. If someone did and she dismissed with her "I'm a poet" comments, well, that's just lame.



so are you saying all lindseys compositions, the grammar is correct.. look at his early cds, gosh sometimes there is a lack of words and lots of noises, and i dont mean his guitar. like maybe he didnt know how to finish writing the song. thats why when ootc came out , i was so impressed with him again , aside from fm, but as a solo, i thought that cd ootc was like him being reborn as a solo, its one of my fave cds

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Stick around. Soon enough, she'll be killing them in Vegas lounges.

you see i think you just like to throw the negative thoughts out there and provoke the conversation to go that way.

if it was a joke, ha ha ha that was cute, untrue but funny, maybe lindsey will open up for her.!

[teedee]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're right, they don't....

Lindsey's Out Of The Cradle Tour Pollstar Data:

02/22.....Los Angeles, CA
1,796 of 2,200 (82%).....$40,410

03/09.....Ventura, CA
850 of 850 (100%).....$19,975

03/10.....San Francisco, CA
627 of 627 (100%).....$12,540

03/12.....Portland, OR
689 of 1,120 (62%).....$10,162

03/16.....Seattle, WA
1,161 of 1,300 (89%).....$18,278

03/17.....St. Paul, MN
740 of 946 (78%).....$12,574

03/18.....Chicago, IL
750 of 750 (100%).....$15,000

03/22.....Detroit, MI
364 of 427 (85%).....$5,285

03/25.....New Britain, CT
750 of 1,200 (63%).....$12,080

03/28.....Philadelphia, PA
722 of 810 (89%).....$13,357

03/31.....New York, NY
1,052 of 1,384 (76%).....$31,560

04/02.....Atlanta, GA
704 of 704 (100%).....$12,320

04/07.....Boulder, CO
856 of 856 (100%).....$15,280

04/09.....Phoenix, AZ.....supported by Susan James
576 of 576 (100%).....$12,140

04/10.....Las Vegas, NV
447 of 700 (64%).....$8,555

Even Stevie's lowest selling shows were doing up to four times those numbers.
So let's not go there, huh? ;)

AMEN

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
im not saying it cant happen, and according to your list,, i was at some of those shows venues like mansfield and hartford to name a few and those venues have lawn seats, they crame as many ppl who will buy them, but to say that the actual pavillions were half full, when i looked around as i always do ( force of habit) they were not. i think some of those figures in what full capacity is when there is a lawn in volved , can be misleading.. we all know lawn seats dont always sell out and even when they do sell out, you can always buy a lawn seat.

Really? I was at the SA, Enchanted, and TISL shows that are listed in MA and CT and they seemed pretty half-full to me. :confused: I've been to shows from other artists at the same venues and you can certainly tell when they're half-full.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
It is the hypothesis that we are working with, but these artists don't sell as much as Stevie does. No Doubt tickets cost like thirty bucks on ticketmaster, not the 125 fm charges with stevie.

:rolleyes:

Stevei doesn't cost that much, FLEETWOOD MAC does.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
im sorry but i just cant believe that attendance count.... dont you think if you were looking at a 19,000 seater and only 3000.00 sold, dont you think that they would cancel that date? or at least move it to a smaller venue. i find that really hard to believe that only 2777 was counted.

How can you NOT believe it?! Those are the official numbers!

Now we're going to start attributing people to her shows that they never attended?!

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're right, they don't....

Lindsey's Out Of The Cradle Tour Pollstar Data:

Even Stevie's lowest selling shows were doing up to four times those numbers.
So let's not go there, huh? ;)

Stevie never played clubs, did she? ;)

If you want to compare, at least Lindsey sold out many of those shows, eh? Stevie certainly didn't.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
depends on where you gather ones information... not that i am questioning the person who posted thos figures, but just cause somethings in print doesnt mean its true.

So the people who post the facts are posting false info? Those stats are from Pollstar, how can you disregard them?

[dissention]

This thread reminds me of a bunch of anklebiters in a sandbox at the local playground. :laugh:

Who's going to throw the first clump of sand and be taken away by Mommy? :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Stevie never played clubs, did she? ;)

If you want to compare, at least Lindsey sold out many of those shows, eh? Stevie certainly didn't. But let's look at it this way, shall we?... Stevie's lowest selling show still sold to a crowd of over 2,500 people... so if Stevie were playing clubs that only had a maximum capacity of 427 - 2,200, like Lindsey was playing, then it's reasonable to assume she would have sold out too, no?

I'm sorry, but citing a sold-out show is not a good argument if the venue capacity is seriously lower than that of who you're comparing to.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
But let's look at it this way, shall we?... Stevie's lowest selling show still sold to a crowd of over 2,500 people... so if Stevie were playing clubs that only had a maximum capacity of 427 - 2,200, like Lindsey was playing, then it's reasonable to assume she would have sold out too, no?

I'm sorry, but citing a sold-out show is not a good argument if the venue capacity is seriously lower than that of who you're comparing to.

Good point, I must give that to you. ;) :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Good point, I must give that to you. ;) :laugh: :laugh: Thanks!

By the way, be sure to check your PMs... I have a question for ya. :D

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
:laugh: Thanks!

By the way, be sure to check your PMs... I have a question for ya. :D

Will do! :)

[diamondsnake]

I think the arguments for Stevie being a bigger draw then Lindsey at the FM shows are stronger. Even if you just look at those numbers, Stevie can obviously get a larger amount of people to see her. Lindsey may have almost always sold out, but clearly that is because Lindsey played at small clubs. If Stevie played at small clubs for her next tour, the tickets would sell out faster then you can say "queen of rock and roll" and you would have to know somebody in the business to see her. So, obviously Stevie has a larger following and brings more to the fleetwood mac table, as far as ticket sales are concerned.

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
I think the arguments for Stevie being a bigger draw then Lindsey at the FM shows are stronger. Even if you just look at those numbers, Stevie can obviously get a larger amount of people to see her. Lindsey may have almost always sold out, but clearly that is because Lindsey played at small clubs. If Stevie played at small clubs for her next tour, the tickets would sell out faster then you can say "queen of rock and roll" and you would have to know somebody in the business to see her. So, obviously Stevie has a larger following and brings more to the fleetwood mac table, as far as ticket sales are concerned.

Once again, I disagree. The majority of ticket buyers don't attend these shows for Stevie, they attend because of Fleetwood Mac. That's the stronger argument.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Once again, I disagree. The majority of ticket buyers don't attend these shows for Stevie, they attend because of Fleetwood Mac. That's the stronger argument.

True, but if we were comparing Lindsey and Stevie, which is what I said (I think) and is what I thought everyone was talking about, then Stevie is obviously the bigger draw.

Draw (in order of bigness)
1) Fleetwood Mac
2) Stevie
3) Lindsey

Can we maybe agree on that?

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
True, but if we were comparing Lindsey and Stevie, which is what I said (I think) and is what I thought everyone was talking about, then Stevie is obviously the bigger draw.

Draw (in order of bigness)
1) Fleetwood Mac
2) Stevie
3) Lindsey

Can we maybe agree on that?

That's not what everyone was saying. My entire argument this whole time was that not one person was responsible for drawing the crowds; it's been the Mac the whole time!

Good lord.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Once again, I disagree. The majority of ticket buyers don't attend these shows for Stevie, they attend because of Fleetwood Mac. That's the stronger argument. In my opinion, the name "Fleetwood Mac" will always be the bigger draw, but, Stevie's involvement in the tour draws an additional set of people who probably wouldn't go if she weren't a part of it.

It's sort of like going to see the Doobie Brothers without Michael McDonald, Yes without Jon Anderson, or Journey without Steve Perry.
The music is still great, and the other musicians are still just as talented as they always are, but the presence of that one certain frontperson with the recognizable name, sweetens the deal and makes the concert tickets that much more desirable. :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
In my opinion, the name "Fleetwood Mac" will always be the bigger draw, but, Stevie's involvement in the tour draws an additional set of people who probably wouldn't go if she weren't a part of it.

But do you really think that the Mac would do so well if Lindsey wasn't a part of it and it was just Stevie, Mick, John, and some anonymous guitarist? Hell no. They wouldn't even be playing arenas if that was the case and they wouldn't be demanding $750,000 a show. To be brutally honest, they wouldn't be able to demand $150,000 a show.

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Really? I was at the SA, Enchanted, and TISL shows that are listed in MA and CT and they seemed pretty half-full to me. :confused: I've been to shows from other artists at the same venues and you can certainly tell when they're half-full.

hun i think maybe you need glasses.lol. are you telling me the venue or at leaste the covered pavillion was half empty, sorry i was there and i will disagree with you inspite of all the quotes you can dig up. so if you want to try to convince me , nothing will do it cause i was there, and i dont need glasses . lol...

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
hun i think maybe you need glasses.lol. are you telling me the venue or at leaste the covered pavillion was half empty, sorry i was there and i will disagree with you inspite of all the quotes you can dig up. so if you want to try to convince me , nothing will do it cause i was there, and i dont need glasses . lol...

Well, I was there and I do wear glasses. Alain Mikli glasses to be exact. ;)

Nope, they didn't even look remotely full.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
But do you really think that the Mac would do so well if Lindsey wasn't a part of it and it was just Stevie, Mick, John, and some anonymous guitarist? Hell no. They wouldn't even be playing arenas if that was the case and they wouldn't be demanding $750,000 a show. To be brutally honest, they wouldn't be able to demand $150,000 a show. Well, I definitely don't think they could get away with charging the current ticket prices... they'd be shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

I think they'd draw maybe another 2000-3000 people over the average Stevie solo show, because of the Fleetwood Mac name, but they sure wouldn't pull in the kinds of crowds they're averaging now.

But you know, the 'Tango' and 'BTM' shows proved that they can do quite well with other guitarists... but the case HAS to be made, that Christine was still there too. So you were still getting two of the three leads, as opposed to just one, or none.

Many industry insiders actually wondered if *this* tour would do very well at these prices and without Christine... but I think it's been proven on three different tours now, that Fleetwood Mac can survive with two of their three 'Rumours'-era leads, but of course nothing will quite compare to having all five of them present and accounted for. :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Well, I definitely don't think they could get away with charging the current ticket prices... they'd be shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

I think they'd draw maybe another 2000-3000 people over the average Stevie solo show, because of the Fleetwood Mac name, but they sure wouldn't pull in the kinds of crowds they're averaging now.

But you know, the 'Tango' and 'BTM' shows proved that they can do quite well with other guitarists... but the case HAS to be made, that Christine was still there too. So you were still getting two of the three leads, as opposed to just one, or none.

Many industry insiders actually wondered if *this* tour would do very well at these prices and without Christine... but I think it's been proven on three different tours now, that Fleetwood Mac can survive with two of their three 'Rumours'-era leads, but of course nothing will quite compare to having all five of them present and accounted for. :)

My thoughts exactly. You typed in my argument for me, Johnny. :laugh: :wavey:

[teedee]

Originally posted by dissention
Stevie never played clubs, did she? ;)

If you want to compare, at least Lindsey sold out many of those shows, eh? Stevie certainly didn't.

your comparisons to lindseys club sell outs, dont mean that he would of sold out bigger venues, how do i know that becuase he did not sell out all the clubs . and because he new he couldnt fill the bigger venues, hence a club tour was born. even if stevie didnt sell out her venues,, she would of sold out the clubs because the attendence numbers that you say are in gold, dont lie right. so even the smallest attendence that she had is still greater than any club. so if you try to chop down stevies attendance to see how it would of turned out , if you as good at math as you are at lindseys most inner thoughts and meanings.lol. i think you will find that stevie would fill and sell out club.... answer me one question why is it so hard for you to ever see someone elses and i dont mean mine, point of view ?

i need to rest, this post is making me tired lol, oh that was another post, im not tired i just need to rest. lol.

[dissention]

Originally posted by teedee
your comparisons to lindseys club sell outs, dont mean that he would of sold out bigger venues, how do i know that becuase he did not sell out all the clubs . and because he new he couldnt fill the bigger venues, hence a club tour was born. even if stevie didnt sell out her venues,, she would of sold out the clubs because the attendence numbers that you say are in gold, dont lie right. so even the smallest attendence that she had is still greater than any club. so if you try to chop down stevies attendance to see how it would of turned out , if you as good at math as you are at lindseys most inner thoughts and meanings.lol. i think you will find that stevie would fill and sell out club.... answer me one question why is it so hard for you to ever see someone elses and i dont mean mine, point of view ?

i need to rest, this post is making me tired lol, oh that was another post, im not tired i just need to rest. lol.

Keep up! I already conceded that point to Johnny! :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

[teedee]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
In my opinion, the name "Fleetwood Mac" will always be the bigger draw, but, Stevie's involvement in the tour draws an additional set of people who probably wouldn't go if she weren't a part of it.

It's sort of like going to see the Doobie Brothers without Michael McDonald, Yes without Jon Anderson, or Journey without Steve Perry.
The music is still great, and the other musicians are still just as talented as they always are, but the presence of that one certain frontperson with the recognizable name, sweetens the deal and makes the concert tickets that much more desirable. :)


well said,
i know that if stevie were not on this tour, i would NOT be attending myself,

i would go see lindsey on a solo tour for sure,
but i would NOT attend a FM concert with out stevie....

would i go to a fm concert with out lindsey, but stevie was there, YES i would.
im sure some like yourself (i mean dissention , not you johnny) would disagree with me , but i think the majority would agree with me on this one! the bottom line in general is stevie is the bigger draw. i know some ppl are coming to this tour because of the combo of both of them. but with the example i just gave, i think seperatley stevie has the upper hand, and i dont mean this in any way as disrespect for lindsey, he is so underated, but thats life..

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by teedee
well said,
i know that if stevie were not on this tour, i would NOT be attending myself,

i would go see lindsey on a solo tour for sure,
but i would NOT attend a FM concert with out stevie....

would i go to a fm concert with out lindsey, but stevie was there, YES i would.
im sure some like yourself (i mean dissention , not you johnny) would disagree with me , but i think the majority would agree with me on this one! the bottom line in general is stevie is the bigger draw. i know some ppl are coming to this tour because of the combo of both of them. but with the example i just gave, i think seperatley stevie has the upper hand, and i dont mean this in any way as disrespect for lindsey, he is so underated, but thats life..

Halleluiah! Someone else agrees with me. Stevie is the bigger draw, obviously. And, I don't think I would go to a FM show sans Stevie. Maybe if Christine was still onboard I would still go, but with just Lindsey there, I don't think so. :laugh:

Like you said, generally speaking, Stevie has a larger, more dedicated fan base. Lindsey has a smaller fanbase, so it is fair to say he draws a lesser amount of people to the Fleetwood Mac shows.

[dissention]

This whole argument has gotten to the point of sheer absurdity.

You all know my thoughts, consider me done with this bull. :)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
if stevies songs were rejected from previous FM projects, why would they look at that reject again , if they felt it wasnt worthy?

You answered your own question, which makes me wonder why you asked it:

now if you stated that her material didnt flow with the other material they had already chosen, i can understand that.

but when you stated that stevies rejects werent up to par with lindseys new material(some 15 yrs old) and she felt she needed to write new songs, you imply a negative feeling about her songs.

It just isn't. Lindsey's music is far superior in SYW. Generally it has been better, but this time the quality between the two writers was galaxies apart. Stevie submitted two killer songs and a bunch of ho-hum cuts. Lindsey submitted positively wonderful music, with exception of Come.

as for lindsey and his record company , rejecting the project. if someone says to you linds, your songs would be better suited for a fm cd, rather than a solo, (kind of like the example of and extented vacation and getting fired) and if he was so content and believed and was sure of his solo stuff being out there wouldnt he have put it out anyways,,,, just like the whole double cd with syw, he was willing to eat lots of money if it only sold 300,000,he would of been fine with that (but in the end of the doc.

As much as I'd like to answer that, I just can't follow it. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You're right, they don't....
Even Stevie's lowest selling shows were doing up to four times those numbers.
So let's not go there, huh? ;)

Comparing Stevie's big-production arena shows to Lindsey's club tour doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm sure you even agree with that. Lindsey wanted to do an intimate show showcasing the guitar.

As I recall, he lost money on that tour. Imagine Stevie actually agreeing to lose money on a tour.

In any case, it's apples and oranges. And besides, you know I don't really care about the numbers. If Lindsey released an album that no else but I bought and if were the only one to show up to see him play, I'd still argue that it's better than Stevie's stuff. :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by teedee
well if you mean the lindsey pulled them, then why on earth would he be asking for those rejects back for this cd? im not saying it cant happen, but i dont see him asking for it, i think once he hears something , i think he knows either what to do with it or he just doesnt feel it. i know you stated rejects doesnt mean a song is bad , but its in the way you propose your posts, that makes everything stevie , look in a negative light, is all im saying.

I find your constant assumptions rather distracting. Do you really think Lindsey called Stevie and asked for particular songs or did she just dump in the studio whatever she felt they could work with?

And it's been documented enough that a lot Stevie's songs were rejected from FM projects over the years. It's OK. Not the end of the world.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Lindsey's music is far superior in SYW. Generally it has been better, but this time the quality between the two writers was galaxies away. Stevie submitted two killer songs and a bunch of ho-hum cuts. Lindsey submitted positively wonderful music, with exception of Come.That's still an absolute matter of taste.
With the exception of "Murrow," "Miranda," "Peacekeeper," and the lyrics to "Say Goodbye," the highlights on the album all belong to Stevie. In my very humble opinion.

For me (and as much as I love Lindsey), 'Gift Of Screws' would have been an album of about five original songs that I really loved, and another seven or more that I only "kind of liked."
In fact, it scared me when I realized that the majority of my favorite 'GOS' tracks turned out to be Stones and Donovan covers.

Stevie's material elevated the album to something much better, and far more well-rounded. Again, in my very humble opinion. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
If Lindsey released an album that no else but I bought and I if were the only one to show up to see him play, I'd still argue that it's better than Stevie's stuff. :laugh: Understandably so, because you're a Lindsey fan, first and foremost. :)
I feel the same way about Stevie. If I were the only person buying her albums, it'd be fine by me... because as long as she reaches ME, that's all that matters. :D

Nearly 19 years after I first became a fan, and I'm more into her music than ever... while I've lost interest in a great number of other artists over the years.
To me, that says it all. :)

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
That's still an absolute matter of taste.
With the exception of "Murrow," "Miranda," "Peacekeeper," and the lyrics to "Say Goodbye," the highlights on the album all belong to Stevie. In my very humble opinion.

That's it! I challenge you to a duel!

Of course it's mostly opinion. I won't bore you with dissecting the songs musically again, but like it or not, Lindsey is ahead there too.

Look, which Fleetwood Mac song was picked by the Smithsonian (or whatever it was) as one of the 300 songs of the century? Gee, it wasn't the only No. 1 song. It wasn't Gypsy or Sara.

It was Go Your Own Way. As well it should be.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Nearly 19 years after I first became a fan, and I'm more into her music than ever... while I've lost interest in a great number of other artists over the years.
To me, that says it all. :)

Well, you know, Johnny, I too became a fan because of Stevie. Then my taste evolved. :laugh: ;) I am glad, however, you still get great enjoyment from her work.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Of course it's mostly opinion. I won't bore you with dissecting the songs musically again, but like it or not, Lindsey is ahead there too.

Look, which Fleetwood Mac song was picked by the Smithsonian (or whatever it was) as one of the 300 songs of the century? Gee, it wasn't the only No. 1 song. It wasn't Gypsy or Sara.

It was Go Your Own Way. As well it should be. A song that makes me feel something emotionally, is always going to win out in my book.

Even the most finely crafted and intricate song, with all of the most sophisticated chord changes, can still never compete with a song that has heart.

So I should hope that Lindsey's songs would have more depth musically... after all, he IS a playing musician.
But for me, where it counts, Stevie is the one who comes out ahead. If you're going to force me to choose between the two.

And who knows exactly why the Smithsonian picked "Go Your Own Way" over any number of other Mac songs, but I thought we agreed a while back that critical approval only means so much, given that it's just another opinion, much like our own.
"GYOW" isn't even the best example of all that Lindsey has to offer.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Well, you know, Johnny, I too became a fan because of Stevie. Then my taste evolved. :laugh: ;)Talk about snooty. :p :laugh:

I feel that my tastes have evolved too... which is why I'm more keenly aware now of what it is that makes Stevie's music so amazing, than I ever was. :D

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Lux
I (quite obviously) go for Lindsey's music, but if I was to 'feel' something (other than strangely sexual) during a song, it would more likely be during a Lindsey song. Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind is an example of one that has emotional potential with me.Oh, I can't even begin to describe how much I adore "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind"!

That's one of those songs that just envelopes you with its beauty.

Most assuredly it's one of Lindsey's finest moments. :nod:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You answered your own question, which makes me wonder why you asked it:

[b]

[b]

It just isn't. Lindsey's music is far superior in SYW. Generally it has been better, but this time the quality between the two writers was galaxies apart. Stevie submitted two killer songs and a bunch of ho-hum cuts. Lindsey submitted positively wonderful music, with exception of Come.

[b]

As much as I'd like to answer that, I just can't follow it. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?




as far as answering my own question. a certain someone was stating these songs were rejects from previous fm songs. so if that is true then i m stating why would fm ask to see them again,,,, as a certain someone stated, but i am in no way stating they were rejects, i was just replying to a previous post, maybe if you quoted the whole post that posed me to post my answer in the nature that i did , you would understand why i said it like that. dont confuse your self. as for lindseys material being far more superior than stevies on this cd or in general , that is your opinion, and your entitled to it , just as everyone else is. the thing here is you want to convince those who dont feel the same as you, and people cant be convinced of something they dont believe. this is like beating a dead horse, just accept the fact that all people will not agree with you .... im not trying to convince you of anything , just trying to let you know what im basing things on and what i like but if you want to cast a negative one way , thats the way it is cause you said so additude, it wont help.

[sparky]

Originally posted by dissention
Then how come the people who shell out $125 to see her now don't shell out half that price to see her on her solo tours?


If I remember right, TISL top ticket prices were 95 in LA. It ain't 125, but then again, Stevie doesn't have to split the fee four ways.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
You answered your own question, which makes me wonder why you asked it:

[b]

[b]

It just isn't. Lindsey's music is far superior in SYW. Generally it has been better, but this time the quality between the two writers was galaxies apart. Stevie submitted two killer songs and a bunch of ho-hum cuts. Lindsey submitted positively wonderful music, with exception of Come.

[b]

As much as I'd like to answer that, I just can't follow it. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?




to rephrase then why didnt he release this body of work as a solo, if he was so eager to get it out there, if he had worked his but off for years, if it were the record company saying hey lindsey it would sell better as a fm cd, well than if they were still interested in him ,then why did he decide to use the fm vehicle to sell his product, instead of rely on his own name.. he didnt have to agree with the company, as you say, they never rejected his material.... so then why did he just say hey im releasing it as a solo....if he didnt care about losing money, then he should of went solo.... one could even say it looks like lindsey sold out and used fm to get his work out there, he even stated himself when he said i want ed a doulbe cd for my own personal reasons to benefit.. so he could get more of his songs out there..... but you have to admit if this is what he does for a living... and like you stated he new he was gonnalos money on his club tour , that is not such a smart move especially not to ask fm members to do the same, lose money. this whole thing about money and commercial and non commercial crap is all bull,, there in the business cause they love what they do , they try to reach a paying audience to make money, otherwise to make record and lose money, makes no sense. so he doesnt care for commercial success, maybe thats why he hasnt had much with his solo career.....

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Comparing Stevie's big-production arena shows to Lindsey's club tour doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm sure you even agree with that. Lindsey wanted to do an intimate show showcasing the guitar.

As I recall, he lost money on that tour. Imagine Stevie actually agreeing to lose money on a tour.

In any case, it's apples and oranges. And besides, you know I don't really care about the numbers. If Lindsey released an album that no else but I bought and if were the only one to show up to see him play, I'd still argue that it's better than Stevie's stuff. :laugh:


so now your gonna fault stevie for not wanting to agree to lose money, but we are suppose to phrase lindsey for doing just that ... this is crazy, do you go to work everyday and not care if your paycheck is there or not, i dont think so....

[Hawkeye]

the thing about this board is Threads get too long:laugh: I was keeping reading all the posts back when there were 5 pages. Today I click on Last page and there's are no THIRTEEN pages. How does one read all that. Its like the Bible over here:laugh:

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I find your constant assumptions rather distracting. Do you really think Lindsey called Stevie and asked for particular songs or did she just dump in the studio whatever she felt they could work with?

And it's been documented enough that a lot Stevie's songs were rejected from FM projects over the years. It's OK. Not the end of the world.


your the one who state d these songs on say you will, were rejects from previous fm records (if it was dissention, my apologies) then someone stated are you sure it was stevie who pulled the songs, meaning it was lindsey, so i stated why would he end up puttin them back on this cd , if infact he was the one who had previously rejected them.. i think you missed the original post i responded to and just quoted my reply.. oh well you know what i dont really care,.