Survey on Muslims

[strandinthewind]

This is interesting and IMO shows how rather out of touch the Muslim cimminity as a whole is on the concept of peace, especially as it pertains to Israel.

Poll: One in Four U.S. Muslims OK With Homicide Bombings Against Innocent Civilians

Wednesday, May 23, 2007

WASHINGTON —

One in four younger U.S. Muslims said in a poll that homicide bombings to defend their religion are acceptable at least in some circumstances, though most Muslim Americans overwhelmingly reject the tactic and are critical of Islamic extremism and Al Qaeda.

The survey by the Pew Research Center, one of the most exhaustive ever of the country's Muslims, revealed a community that in many ways blends comfortably into society. Its largely mainstream members express nearly as much happiness with their lives and communities as the general public does, show a broad willingness to adopt American customs, and have income and education levels similar to others in the United States.

Even so, the survey revealed noteworthy pockets of discontent.

While nearly 80 percent of U.S. Muslims say homicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam can not be justified, 13 percent say they can be, at least rarely.

That sentiment is strongest among those younger than 30. Two percent of them say it can often be justified, 13 percent say sometimes and 11 percent say rarely.

"It is a hair-raising number," said Radwan Masmoudi, president of the Washington-based Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, which promotes the compatibility of Islam with democracy.

He said most supporters of the attacks likely assumed the context was a fight against occupation — a term Muslims often use to describe the conflict with Israel.

U.S. Muslims have growing Internet and television access to extreme ideologies, he said, adding: "People, especially younger people, are susceptible to these ideas."

Federal officials have warned the U.S. must guard against homegrown terrorism, as the British suffered with the London transit bombings of 2005.

Even so, U.S. Muslims are far less accepting of suicide attacks than Muslims in many other nations. In Pew surveys last year, support in some Muslim countries exceeded 50 percent, while it was considered justifiable by about one in four Muslims in Britain and Spain, and one in three in France.

"We have crazies just like other faiths have them," said Eide Alawan, who directs interfaith outreach at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Mich., one of the nation's largest mosques. He said killing innocent people contradicts Islam.

Andrew Kohut, Pew director, said in an interview that support for the attacks represented "one of the few trouble spots" in the survey.

The poll briefly describes the rationales for and against "suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets" and then asks, "Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?"

The question did not specify where a suicide attack might occur, who might carry it out or what was meant by using a bombing to "defend Islam."

Those of all ages backing at least some suicide attacks were about evenly divided between men and women, with support stronger from those who were U.S.-born and less educated, and those who attend mosques at least weekly.

In other findings:

— Only 5 percent of U.S. Muslims expressed favorable views of the terrorist group al-Qaida, though about a fourth did not express an opinion.

— Most said they are concerned about a rise in Islamic extremism in the U.S. and around the world.

— Only 40 percent said they believe Arab men carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

— By six to one, they say the U.S. was wrong to invade Iraq, while a third say the same about Afghanistan — far deeper than the opposition expressed by the general U.S. public.

— Just over half said it has been harder being a U.S. Muslim since the 9/11 attacks. Nearly a third of those who flew in the past year say they underwent extra screening because they are Muslim.

— Forty-seven percent said they consider themselves Muslim first, rather than American. Forty-two percent of Christians and 62 percent of white evangelical Protestants identified themselves primarily by their religion in earlier surveys.

— By six-to-one, they favor the Democratic Party over the Republican Party, and by five-to-one say they voted for Democratic Sen. John Kerry over President Bush in 2004.

The survey estimates there are roughly 2.35 million Muslim Americans. Among adults, two-thirds are from abroad while a fifth are U.S.-born blacks.

By law, the Census Bureau does not ask about people's religions.

Telephone interviews were conducted with 1,050 Muslim adults from January through April, including in Arabic, Urdu and Farsi. Subjects were chosen at random, from a separate list of households including some with Muslim-sounding names, and from Muslim households that had answered previous surveys.

The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 5 percentage points

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274934,00.html

[petep9000]

ah, and how interesting that this story comes from 'Fox News'.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by petep9000

ah, and how interesting that this story comes from 'Fox News'.

Don't shoot the messenger.

The results from the poll are the results from the poll

Here is the site for Pew

http://pewresearch.org/

http://people-press.org/

[SuzeQuze]

It's a scientific poll. They spun the headline to make it look like 1 in 4 is OK completely OK with suicide attacks while in reality most of those 1 in 4 said in extreme circumstances. Not that I am excusing the attitude but it seems far less US Muslims are "OK with" suicide bombings than the headline alludes to.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

It's a scientific poll. They spun the headline to make it look like 1 in 4 is OK completely OK with suicide attacks while in reality most of those 1 in 4 said in extreme circumstances. Not that I am excusing the attitude but it seems far less US Muslims are "OK with" suicide bombings than the headline alludes to.

I agree - but the actual results of the poll still are a little jarring - at least to me. And, IMO, the results reflect a frightening thought in many people that a shockingly large portion of Muslims, especially younger ones, are inherently violent to the notion of the West, which they equate with Isreal. Compare that to the US average youth under 26, who seem to tend to be way more liberal.

[mikeschmike]

"We have crazies just like other faiths have them," said Eide Alawan, who directs interfaith outreach at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Mich., one of the nation's largest mosques. He said killing innocent people contradicts Islam.

At least Fox was good enough to throw this into the article. IMO this says it all. Minus 9/11, how many other bombings in the US have been Muslim related?

Oklahoma City? hmmm...no
The bomb at the Atlanta olympics? still no
All of the bombings of abortion clinics? Nope

[Sarah]

It seems to me that being ok with a suicide bombing in any circumstance is, well, being ok with a suicide bombing.

Humans are idiotic.. killing and dying in the name of an idea. Ridiculous.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by mikeschmike

At least Fox was good enough to throw this into the article. IMO this says it all. Minus 9/11, how many other bombings in the US have been Muslim related?

Oklahoma City? hmmm...no
The bomb at the Atlanta olympics? still no
All of the bombings of abortion clinics? Nope

The first bombing of the WTC was Al-Q. Then, the attacks on the Cole (Al-Q. ) and the other ones outside the US like the Pan Am plane (Libya) - the Armed Forces Barracks, etc. - all Al-Q. Then, there are the foiled plots, like the Y2K one stopped in the Clinton Admin. and the recent Fort Dix one. Those cannot be ignored solely because they were outside of the US.

But, even if other bombing happen by other people, that does not negate the results of the survey

I'd be interested to see the results of a faith neutral survey on the same questions.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I agree - but the actual results of the poll still are a little jarring - at least to me. And, IMO, the results reflect a frightening thought in many people that a shockingly large portion of Muslims, especially younger ones, are inherently violent to the notion of the West, which they equate with Isreal. Compare that to the US average youth under 26, who seem to tend to be way more liberal.

I agree that it's disturbing. I don't doubt that part of their ability to justify their beliefs is the war in Iraq. That makes it easier to see America as evil.

On edit: I also found this fact disturbing "Only 40 percent said they believe Arab men carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

I agree that it's disturbing. I don't doubt that part of their ability to justify their beliefs is the war in Iraq. That makes it easier to see America as evil.

On edit: I also found this fact disturbing "Only 40 percent said they believe Arab men carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001."

I think many see the removal of SH as a good thing -- the Iraqi's certainly did at first Though the insanity of the W administration after the removal of SH is horrid.

In the end, these results show the Muslim community as a whole has a long way to go in the area of striving for peace. I get that we all do in a sense, but I doubt this many non-Muslim Americans would survey as this leaning toward violence.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think many see the removal of SH as a good thing -- the Iraqi's certainly did at first Though the insanity of the W administration after the removal of SH is horrid.

In the end, these results show the Muslim community as a whole has a long way to go in the area of striving for peace. I get that we all do in a sense, but I doubt this many non-Muslim Americans would survey as this leaning toward violence.

No they wouldn't in terms of suicide bombings. The idea is so contrary to everything we're taught here. But what if the question were phrased differently, as in would you support a preemtive war? I think a lot of non-Muslim Americans do and in that case lean toward violence.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

No they wouldn't in terms of suicide bombings. The idea is so contrary to everything we're taught here. But what if the question were phrased differently, as in would you support a preemtive war? I think a lot of non-Muslim Americans do and in that case lean toward violence.

Interesting notion, but I think it is a little apples and oranges in that a suicide bombing here and there is not an all our preemptive war a la Iraq. In other words, as I said before, if Iraq had gone well after the invasion, I think 90% of the people against Iraq now would be for it regardless of the correctness of the invasion. In other words, if we had been successfula t rehabilitating Iraq, then like 90% of the US would likely vote that removing SH was a good enough cause regardless of the trumped up reasons to promote the argument of exigency. I cannot really fault them for this logic because SH was a horrible person who sponsored terrorism, though not nearly to the degree we were lead to believe. Conversely, a suicide bombing likely could not have that large an effect.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interesting notion, but I think it is a little apples and oranges in that a suicide bombing here and there is not an all our preemptive war a la Iraq. In other words, as I said before, if Iraq had gone well after the invasion, I think 90% of the people against Iraq now would be for it regardless of the correctness of the invasion. In other words, if we had been successfula t rehabilitating Iraq, then like 90% of the US would likely vote that removing SH was a good enough cause regardless of the trumped up reasons to promote the argument of exigency. I cannot really fault them for this logic because SH was a horrible person who sponsored terrorism, though not nearly to the degree we were lead to believe. Conversely, a suicide bombing likely could not have that large an effect.

I see what you're saying. There is at least some logical thought you can grab onto for the former positon. Whereas a suicide bombing is totally irrational. I agree except I think any logic that justifies violence is inherently flawed. But I see the distinction.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

. . . I think any logic that justifies violence is inherently flawed . . . .

I tend to agree

[strandinthewind]

Two Muslim Authors React to Survey of Muslim-American Attitudes Toward U.S.

Thursday , May 24, 2007

This is a partial transcript from "The O'Reilly Factor," May 23, 2007, that has been edited for clarity.

JOHN KASICH, GUEST HOST: A new poll of American Muslims is really raising some eyebrows. Here are some of the most interesting findings. One in four of those younger than 30 say that suicide bombings are sometimes acceptable to defend their religion. Only 40 percent believe Arab men were behind the 9/11 attacks. And more than half say it's harder being a Muslim in America since 9/11.

Joining us now with reaction, Irshad Manji, author of the book "The Trouble with Islam Today" and Ahmed Younis, the author of the book "American Muslims Speak the Truth." Irshad, pretty stunning to me. Twenty-six percent of young Muslims saying that somehow suicide bombing can be justified. How is this possible?

IRSHAD MANJI, MUSLIM AUTHOR: Well John, first of all, in the spirit of no spin, let me say that I'm disappointed with FOX News. A patriotic channel like this ought to be emphasizing all of the good news that's coming out of this report. And there's plenty of it, showing that the condition of American Muslims is so much better than that of Muslims in Europe. And that's the pat on the back for the United States. So let's not lose focus of that bigger context.

KASICH: Irshad, you know, I mean, I got your point. But you know when 25 percent say…

MANJI: I'm about to get to that.

KASICH: ...that you can strap a suicide bomb belt…

MANJI: Yes.

KASICH: ...and blowup innocent men, women and children on a bus, I mean, the rest of it is great, but it's stunning.

MANJI: John, let me get to that now. That bad news ought to be a source of embarrassment for the Muslim American establishment, because it shows a lack of leadership. They have failed to teach enough young Muslim Americans the difference between means and ends.

You know, saying that it's OK to engage in suicide bombings to defend a peaceful religion is rather like saying that it's OK to have premarital sex to defend virginity. It makes absolutely no sense. And if it was explained to young Muslim Americans who are increasingly religious, that way I think that it might have some resonance, this distinction.

KASICH: All right, Ahmed, your take on this? I mean, look, I understand that there's some hype in this. Some young kid might just want to just say oh yes, yes, yes, yes. But you know, suicide bombing is so horrible, it's so repulsive because it targets people who are purely, totally innocent. And designed to do nothing but kill. How do you get this kind of number?

AHMED YOUNIS: Absolutely. I think part of why you're getting this number is we're seeing a snapshot. A lot of times the development of Muslim identity for young people in the West is kind of a three-prong process.

Number one, political awareness, a sense of wanting to relieve what is perceived to be social injustice, oppression, etcetera. Number two, that political awareness is infused with misunderstandings of the religion, initial engagements with the religion.

And then the third stage is when the knowledge of the law and the religion itself ameliorates the political perspectives, shedding the fact, shedding the extremism you see in all of their parents, their polling is consistent with this perspective.

Number two, I think second-generation immigrant youths are not satisfied, some of them at least, by what their parents and their communities have to offer them — the nexus that they're looking for between religious identity and political identity. The parent immigrant generation, for the most part, is able to offer them what they need, but the institutions, the parents…

KASICH: But Ahmed, I mean, look, I…

YOUNIS: They need to create new avenues for these conversations.

KASICH: Well, but wait a minute. What we're finding with a lot of these suicide bombers in actuality, whether it was the Toronto planners, or whether it was the people in England, we're finding out these are people, they're not deprived. They're not living in a bad situation.

MANJI: Right.

KASICH: These are people who are middle-class, who have somehow become radicalized. Am I right about that?

YOUNIS: Of course you are. You're absolutely right. Just very quickly…

KASICH: Yes.

YOUNIS: ...if Irshad would allow me. Yes, you're absolutely right, very similar to Timothy McVeigh. I would posit to you that these ideologies that are being harbored by this very small percentage of young Muslims that say that it is justified are more…

KASICH: Ahmed, it's 25 percent. It's not.

YOUNIS: It's 25 percent say that in some situation, it might be justified. But those people are taking it from the book of Howard Zinn, from the book of leftist Western political ideology, more than they're taking it from the Koran. And when they infuse the Koran…

KASICH: I think we can…

MANJI: No, I have to disagree with that.

KASICH: Go ahead.

MANJI: Ahmed, John mentioned that this time last year in my own city of Toronto, where I'm speaking to you now from, 17 young Muslim Canadians, men, were arrested on evidence that they were planning a beheading of the prime minister and an explosion of the parliament buildings.
Guess what? They named their campaign after the first military victory that was achieved by the prophet Mohammed. Ahmed, my point is that there was a religious motivation to this. And they were not just blowing off steam. They truly…

YOUNIS: Oh, you're absolutely right

KASICH: OK, here's the thing. But let me give you some more numbers.

YOUNIS: Sure.

KASICH: Twenty-seven percent of Muslims in the U.S. refuse to condemn Al Qaeda, which is unbelievable. And 60 percent are not sure that Arabs were involved in the attack on 9/11.

YOUNIS: Well, you know, 9/11, I mean…

KASICH: But let me make my point here.

YOUNIS: Sure thing.

KASICH: Twenty-seven percent refuse to condemn Al Qaeda. Twenty-five percent say suicide bombings OK. If we're not winning this battle, what are we doing wrong? I mean, if we can't win this battle in the U.S., how are we suppose to win it worldwide with just a handful of these nuts go out there and blow themselves up in a shopping mall?

YOUNIS: Again, I think we're talking about symbolism over substance. The numbers do cause concern. They do cause, as Irshad said, an alarm amongst American Muslim leaders to ensure that there are more organic leaders, imams, religious leaders that understand and are relevant to a Western experience, and are perceived as legitimate by the global Muslim tradition or the global Muslim...

KASICH: Irshad, are we developing those people? I don't think we hear enough of them speaking out condemning this kind of radicalism. Right or wrong, Irshad?

MANJI: You're right. And that is part of the problem is that the so- called moderate or mainstream of the religion in America is deadly silent about all of this. We need to have more people speaking up more.

KASICH: Well, we need more leaders like you to be out there, because I'll tell you, this is serious numbers. I don't want to overreact to it. It's serious. We got to be on top of it. Thank you both.

MANJI: Thank you.

Watch "The O'Reilly Factor" weeknights at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET and listen to the "Radio Factor!"

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I thought this was an interesting read. And, I do believe the Muslim community as a whole is not doing enough to stop the line of thought that it is okay to use violence to promote or defend religion. I get that the West has a similar line of thought and the West mostly is responsible for the Muslim's hatred of the West (see the crusades, etc. ) -- but it has to end somewhere. Hopefully, the future holds some peace.