Immigration Legislation fo' da' nation

[snowman]

Any thoughts on the proposed legislation(s) for illegal aliens? I'm suprised that topic hasn't surfaced here, yet.

[amber]

I'm not familiar with the legislation. I'm sure I have opinions, though.

[snowman]

Originally Posted by amber

I'm not familiar with the legislation. I'm sure I have opinions, though.

The senate is working a couple variations of dealing with illegal aliens (basically Mexicans) in the U.S.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by snowman

The senate is working a couple variations of dealing with illegal aliens (basically Mexicans) in the U.S.

Uh huh...illegal aliens, my ass. They are targeting Mexicans and Mexicans only. I think it's an attempt to further alienate Mexicans because on the racial totem poll people STILL put us very very low.

Fine, keep them out - watch major industries and other things crash and burn.

[snowman]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Uh huh...illegal aliens, my ass. They are targeting Mexicans and Mexicans only. I think it's an attempt to further alienate Mexicans because on the racial totem poll people STILL put us very very low.

Fine, keep them out - watch major industries and other things crash and burn.

And therein lies the controversy. But do really think this is a racial issue or merely that illegal aliens (unfortunately most are Latinos) are in this country...illegally and creating a burden on the system?

[amber]

Originally Posted by snowman

The senate is working a couple variations of dealing with illegal aliens (basically Mexicans) in the U.S.

Yeah, but what's the proposal?
I will say this: Capitalism depends on cheap labor. So no matter how much Repubs talk about immigration rules, really, repubs need immigrants more than anyone. They know this, so any other opinion out of their mouths is either lip service, or trying to strip immigrants of health care and education, so as to make the labor even cheaper.
Dems would say use citizen labor, and have it be unionized, and everyone should get a working wage.
If they're going to try to crack down on immigration - Asians have a great immigration thing going. Tons come here, and they get a lot of benefits. There's this whole program. I read an article on it, but don't remember it all. Essentially, Asian people who immigrate and have families already here get money. Mainly older Asians do it. They work the system the best.
Personally, I'm against immigration. I'll go into reasons in a second.
However, because people do immigrate here anyways, I want there to be health care and education for those immigrants. Just as i want for all Americans.
Which is what the repubs usually don't want. So, although I am against immigration, I certainly am not against benefits for immigrants. No matter who you are, it does not benefit the population as a whole to have people undereducated and with poor health care.
Reasons I am against immigration: I am against population growth as a whole. And the thing with America is that we still have some land and resources and wildlife here that hasn't been destroyed. I think it should be preserved. Immigration leads to more population. And third world countries don't have building and environmental rules - and so usually don't have a culture/religion that supports zero population. Which is why I want the most educated population possible.
I don't want people to come here and have more kids, just because they can. I don't want us to be overpopulated and dirty like a lot of countries. I want us, as a country, to support zero population growth. Which is not just about immigration, of course. But immigration contributes.
So, in conclusion, I have no ethnic problems with immigration, just natural resource consuming problems. In other words - America is full. And -
Hey, people, we can't just have all the kids we want. It's called birth control, and it's called having as many kids as your environment can support. It's not a right to have kids. Just cause China is full, and Mexico has no way to make a living, doesn't mean America has unlimited resources for everyone. And let me say that I don't think naturalized citizens of America should be having as many kids, either.
I don't think people should ignore the fact that the earth can not support the population. Sure, we (America) have some resources left, but only because we were discovered by white, resource consuming men a mere 200 years ago. Sure as hell doesn't mean we should use all the "resources".
Again, although I would always be for immigration limits, I would never be for reducing the benefits of immigrants.
Let's remember - the earth's resources are finite, they can only support a certain amount of consumption. Just because we have stuff left in America doesn't mean that stuff will last forever. People can move to different parts of the world, but we all still live in the same world, and the resources will run out eventually. You can run, but you can't hide.
And I think America should put the kibosh on immigration theoretically to support having other countries enact environmental controls, and support economies that aren't corrupt, and don't deprive their citizens of basic living tools. And, by no means do I think that other country's systems should be like ours, quite the opposite. Capitalism is the worst economic system evah. Countries should be encouraged to consume less, to live within what is environmentally sustainable. Obviously America is way beyond that.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by amber

\Reasons I am against immigration: I am against population growth as a whole. And the thing with America is that we still have some land and resources and wildlife here that hasn't been destroyed. I think it should be preserved. Immigration leads to more population. And third world countries don't have building and environmental rules - and so usually don't have a culture that supports zero population. I don't want people to come here and have more kids, just because they can. I don't want us to be overpopulated and dirty like a lot of countries. I want us, as a country, to support zero population growth. Which is not just about immigration, of course. But immigration contributes.
So, in conclusion, I have no ethnic problems with immigration, just natural resource consuming problems. In other words - America is full. And -
Hey, people, we can't just have all the kids we want. It's called birth control, and it's called having as many kids as your environment can support. It's not a right to have kids. Just cause China is full, and Mexico has no way to make a living, doesn't mean America has unlimited resources for everyone.
Again, although I would always be for immigration limits, I would never be for reducing the benefits of immigrants.

Amen! I agree....overpopulation needs to stop. I have a whole range of theories/ suggestions on how we, in America, can curb pop. growth...but I'm pretty sure they'd be considered "rights violations" or something. But let me just say it's f***ed up that it's harder to obtain a dog than it is to get knocked up and pop out babies...ugh. Don't get me started.

Anyway, you make excellent points in your above post.

And...snowman, yes, I think it is a racial issue on a certain level. That may not be the whole issue (illegals are a HUGE tax on the health/education system etc...) but either way, I think there's an underlying racial issue at play as well.

[amber]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Amen! I agree....overpopulation needs to stop. I have a whole range of theories/ suggestions on how we, in America, can curb pop. growth...but I'm pretty sure they'd be considered "rights violations" or something. But let me just say it's f***ed up that it's harder to obtain a dog than it is to get knocked up and pop out babies...ugh. Don't get me started.

Anyway, you make excellent points in your above post.

And...snowman, yes, I think it is a racial issue on a certain level. That may not be the whole issue (illegals are a HUGE tax on the health/education system etc...) but either way, I think there's an underlying racial issue at play as well.

There's a zero population growth organization - I'm writing a scholarship paper for it, I should post that -
I must say I'm gratified to see an obvious immigrant (recent, and mexican I mean - both sides of my family only came here in 1920, from Italy, so I'm an immigrant, too, but not like you of course. ) understand "my" point.
And you are right, about it being an upward battle and a racial issue (although, of course, logically it is not a racial issue) - it seems like everyone feels they have a right to have a child. I know you are catholic, too, which makes it even more interesting that you see "my" point. (yes, I know you are a "special" catholic Hey, did you know I read a study a couple years ago that Italy has the least population growth? Less than one child per household. Just an interesting "Catholic" fact. )
I'd like to hear your theories.
My comprehensive theory is that education is the key, which is why I would never support some immigration law. I want everyone in the world to have the most knowledge possible at their disposal. Only then can people make wise choices. Which is of course why repubs always cut education. And immigrant benefits.
It shouldn't be a racial issue, though - but America has always made it one - from the Irish to the Italians to the Natives to the Slaves - always racial (the disguise, the red herring - it was never racial, it is always economic, cloaked in racial) - but now I submit we are at a threshold point as far as population goes. Sucks for the races who are trying to come here now, but it still isn't racial (which is not to say people aren't prejudice, just to say in the economic global reality it isn't racial.)

Again, people, mark my words - Repubs argue this point racially - but for them truly they want immigration - their BIG BUSINESS PROFITS depend on cheap labor - so don't be fooled.
Which makes me think of Clinton and NAFTA...
Sorry for the big long thing....
I don't care if immigration is a "huge" tax burden (did you guys know that Welfare takes up only about one tenth of one percent of the national budget? Yeah, exactly)
I think education FOR EVERYONE should be the number one fiscal priority. Immigrant or not. And health care should be number two. Yes, I'm a socialization girl. But, again, repubs want to keep the people dumb and not healthy, so they will work for nothing, and make the billioinaire owners more billions.
PEOPLE, THAT IS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM
You can talk about "freedom" all you want, the only thing the repubs/rich people are thinking about is cheap labor and profits for themselves. "Lies, and the Lying liers who etc...."

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Uh huh...illegal aliens, my ass. They are targeting Mexicans and Mexicans only. I think it's an attempt to further alienate Mexicans because on the racial totem poll people STILL put us very very low.

at least Mexicans arent as low as us "lowly Indians" (Sorry, I dont care to be PC and use the term "Native American" because in my eyes if you were born in the US you are a "Native American")...We're so low on the racial scale (Whatever the f**k that is) that the totem poles we built look like California Red Woods.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Uh huh...illegal aliens, my ass. They are targeting Mexicans and Mexicans only. I think it's an attempt to further alienate Mexicans because on the racial totem poll people STILL put us very very low.

Fine, keep them out - watch major industries and other things crash and burn.

In CA, this is a big issue, a huge chunk of the budget goes to pay health care and cash aid for illegals.

Working in Social Services, particularly in General Assistance, I see an awful lot of people that could potentially do some of these labor-intensive jobs. But, they'd rather stay homeless and get psych meds and be layabouts.

I Think its more accurate to say about this legislation's message: If you want to come to this country and work, fine. but either become a citizen or go home after an allotted time span.

It may force industries to start paying living wages. Boo Hoo. All I know is, there are a lot of people that already live here that could do the jobs that illegals do. Also, I dont know if this bill only targets Mexicans, but it shouldnt. It should target ANY/EVERY illegal.

EDIT: Deanna, it prob wont pass, so I wouldnt worry about it if I were you...

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

In CA, this is a big issue, a huge chunk of the budget goes to pay health care and cash aid for illegals.

It may force industries to start paying living wages. Boo Hoo. All I know is, there are a lot of people that already live here that could do the jobs that illegals do. Also, I dont know if this bill only targets Mexicans, but it shouldnt. It should target ANY/EVERY illegal.

But if there are so many people here who could do the jobs...where are they!?! They're not doing them! OH...wait - I guess that's where the living wage thing comes in...BUT then in this day and age's economic climate - can't then just find another way to get cheap labor? I don't know...

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

at least Mexicans arent as low as us "lowly Indians" (Sorry, I dont care to be PC and use the term "Native American" because in my eyes if you were born in the US you are a "Native American")...We're so low on the racial scale (Whatever the f**k that is) that the totem poles we built look like California Red Woods.

Unfortunately that's true. I grew up in New Mexico - and traveling anywhere you go through numerous reservations...I've know many a Native American (sorry lol) in my day - and they do have a lot of **** to deal with - racism IS still very prevelant toward Indians

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by amber

I must say I'm gratified to see an obvious immigrant (recent, and mexican I mean - both sides of my family only came here in 1920, from Italy, so I'm an immigrant, too, but not like you of course. ) understand "my" point.

Er actuallY I'm not a recent immigrant at all, my family has been in their neck of the woods since before NEw MExico was a state...so that makes me what third or fourth generation? The border crossed us? Lol...I don't know. But my mother's husband is a first generation immigrant, he came to this country as a boy to work the fields..(he is legal, though I'm not sure if that was the case when he first got here) and you will not find a more hard working man - and he's a proud voter and taxpayer and land owner now and all that...I know that's not the norm though..and there is a big tax on the system.

Originally Posted by amber

My comprehensive theory is that education is the key, which is why I would never support some immigration law. I want everyone in the world to have the most knowledge possible at their disposal. Only then can people make wise choices. Which is of course why repubs always cut education. And immigrant benefits.

Exactly, education IS the the key. That is so true...and sadly our education system is going down the crap hole.

My theories aren't as nice or realistic..lol..I'm thinking some sort of reversible mandated sterilization - then when you're the proper age you can apply for a kid...lol...um that would NEVER fly - and then I feel bad because I have some younger friends who were surprised by a pregnancy and are wonderful parents.

BUT ok..if you're on welfare and have more than 1 kid - you should NOT be allowed to keep popping them out.

I know Catholics are among one of the groups who are contributing to this population issue. I work with a guy who has I think 7 kids now....!!! In today's world? That's too much. But the church still has archaic views on contraception and family planning. But with more progressive thinkers like myself and my family - maybe in another couple a hundred years the tide will turn

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by amber

There's a zero population growth organization - I'm writing a scholarship paper for it, I should post that -
I must say I'm gratified to see an obvious immigrant (recent, and mexican I mean - both sides of my family only came here in 1920, from Italy, so I'm an immigrant, too, but not like you of course. ) understand "my" point.
And you are right, about it being an upward battle and a racial issue (although, of course, logically it is not a racial issue) - it seems like everyone feels they have a right to have a child. I know you are catholic, too, which makes it even more interesting that you see "my" point. (yes, I know you are a "special" catholic Hey, did you know I read a study a couple years ago that Italy has the least population growth? Less than one child per household. Just an interesting "Catholic" fact. )
I'd like to hear your theories.
My comprehensive theory is that education is the key, which is why I would never support some immigration law. I want everyone in the world to have the most knowledge possible at their disposal. Only then can people make wise choices. Which is of course why repubs always cut education. And immigrant benefits.
It shouldn't be a racial issue, though - but America has always made it one - from the Irish to the Italians to the Natives to the Slaves - always racial (the disguise, the red herring - it was never racial, it is always economic, cloaked in racial) - but now I submit we are at a threshold point as far as population goes. Sucks for the races who are trying to come here now, but it still isn't racial (which is not to say people aren't prejudice, just to say in the economic global reality it isn't racial.)

Again, people, mark my words - Repubs argue this point racially - but for them truly they want immigration - their BIG BUSINESS PROFITS depend on cheap labor - so don't be fooled.
Which makes me think of Clinton and NAFTA...
Sorry for the big long thing....
I don't care if immigration is a "huge" tax burden (did you guys know that Welfare takes up only about one tenth of one percent of the national budget? Yeah, exactly)
I think education FOR EVERYONE should be the number one fiscal priority. Immigrant or not. And health care should be number two. Yes, I'm a socialization girl. But, again, repubs want to keep the people dumb and not healthy, so they will work for nothing, and make the billioinaire owners more billions.
PEOPLE, THAT IS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM
You can talk about "freedom" all you want, the only thing the repubs/rich people are thinking about is cheap labor and profits for themselves. "Lies, and the Lying liers who etc...."

You don't want to come over here and be Prime Minister, I suppose...?

[Jason T.]

As someone who is Mexican, I must say that I'm probably just overly biased in my opinions concerning this issue.

But here's my proposal to fix it:

1 Go after companies that hire illegal immigrants and fine their asses big for violation of labor laws. That would keep them from hiring immigrants in the future.

2 Cause/Effect - less illegal immigration if there are no jobs. Granted, don't sit there and say America is full. I think we should realize that the USA is located in a Hemisphere mostly occupied by Latinos and diffusion is just going to occur over time.

3 Kill Lou Dobbs -- set him on fire for public entertainment; Frist and Tancredo (sp?) should lose their jobs for lack of shame and humanity.