Which way could you go?

JamieSPC · #1 11-08-2004, 06:42 PM

Oh crap, here he goes again.

But seriously...

Much of the hurt over the election seems to come from the far right's opposition, with the full support of "their candidate," to gay marriage. What comfort would someone take in voting for either candidate based on this issue?

I don't think anyone needs confirmation of W's stance here. But Kerry's is confounding:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/..._gay_marriage/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4245324

And here's a great one:

http://boifromtroy.com/archives/002740.php (click with confidence; this ain't porn)

Seems an anti-war, pro-gay marriage voter had a very limited choice to truly vote with conscience: Nader, if he was even on the ballot in your state.

He was in Alabama, in the heart of Jesusland.

strandinthewind · #2 11-08-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Oh crap, here he goes again.

But seriously...

Much of the hurt over the election seems to come from the far right's opposition, with the full support of "their candidate," to gay marriage. What comfort would someone take in voting for either candidate based on this issue?

I don't think anyone needs confirmation of W's stance here. But Kerry's is confounding:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/..._gay_marriage/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4245324

And here's a great one:

http://boifromtroy.com/archives/002740.php (click with confidence; this ain't porn)

Seems an anti-war, pro-gay marriage voter had a very limited choice to truly vote with conscience: Nader, if he was even on the ballot in your state.

He was in Alabama, in the heart of Jesusland.

Thus, the conflict of Kerry. But, as I have said before and will always say, "a hole in a tree" could goern this country better than W.

JamieSPC · #3 11-08-2004, 07:25 PM

But Kerry wasn't your only choice.

I've voted third-party before, mostly because I ordinarily don't vote party lines. I like the Republican political platform, and position-wise I am pretty much a Republican, but have serious issues with the people that seem to end up on the ticket.

I have friends, Republican and Democrat, who say voting third-party or writing in is throwing your vote away. But when your head hits the pillow at night, what does your conscience tell you if you vote for someone who opposes something you so passionately believe in?

This has always, and will always, bother me.

Johnny Stew · #4 11-08-2004, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Oh crap, here he goes again.

But seriously...

Much of the hurt over the election seems to come from the far right's opposition, with the full support of "their candidate," to gay marriage. What comfort would someone take in voting for either candidate based on this issue?

I don't think anyone needs confirmation of W's stance here. But Kerry's is confounding:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/..._gay_marriage/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4245324

And here's a great one:

http://boifromtroy.com/archives/002740.php (click with confidence; this ain't porn)

Seems an anti-war, pro-gay marriage voter had a very limited choice to truly vote with conscience: Nader, if he was even on the ballot in your state.

He was in Alabama, in the heart of Jesusland.

The only way I'll ever find a politician who shares my opinions 100%, is if I run for office myself.
So, I look for the guy who comes closest.

And while it's true that some of the independent candidates represented my opinions regarding gay marriage, more than John Kerry, it was safe to say that this election would not come down to a dead-heat between 4 or 5 candidates, but between two.

So even though I wasn't thrilled with Kerry's position on a few things (keeping this conversation solely about gay rights, and no other issues), I felt confident that he, unlike Bush, would at least not push to LIMIT civil rights.

See, I look at it this way... if I can't have a guy in office who's going to fight FOR me, I'd at least prefer not to have a guy who's going to fight AGAINST me.

estranged4life · #5 11-08-2004, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

But Kerry wasn't your only choice.

I've voted third-party before, mostly because I ordinarily don't vote party lines.

in Oklahoma...For some "unknown" reason. Really disappointing since I am an Independent!

I cannot believe this was the first time an Oklahoman had to choose between the big 2 candidates without having the option for another candidate...Very sad

I also never vote along party lines...Voted for 3 Repubs & 2 Demos this past Tuesday (The Repubs won and the Demos lost

)

Brian j.

Johnny Stew · #6 11-08-2004, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

I have friends, Republican and Democrat, who say voting third-party or writing in is throwing your vote away. But when your head hits the pillow at night, what does your conscience tell you if you vote for someone who opposes something you so passionately believe in?

That's a very fair question.
In this particular situation, I felt it was of the utmost importance to oust Bush. However, if I felt that Kerry was a threat to what I believe in, then I wouldn't have supported him either. So, I backed him despite the fact that he and I disagree on some issues which are important to me.

But, I want to make it clear that, while he came out on the side of gay marriage bans, Kerry did actively support the recognition of gay civil unions. And, for me, THAT'S the thing I cared most about. I don't need to own stock in the word "marriage"... I just want equal rights to the benefits afforded heterosexual couples through civil unions and domestic partnerships.

Bush, and the Republican party in general, don't even want to give us that much.

golddustwoman77 · #7 11-08-2004, 07:47 PM

First of all, I would like to start by saying, I'm a Christian, and I live in Tennessee (part of the Bible Belt). Having said that, here are my thoughts.

I want to know when religion and politics became intertwined! There is supposed to be seperation of church and state as stated in the Constitution. There is no place for politics in religion and no place for religion in politics. That is why churches do not pay taxes. They are non profit and supposed to be apolitical. Also, the government is not supposed to promote a religion, because we are supposed to be a country where we are free to worship as we choose, and EVERYONE is represented regardless of race, sex, creed, or religion. Isn't that why the Pilgrims and others came to America? It was for freedom of religion. They were tired of having their government telling them they had to go to the Church of England. That is why this is such an important value. It is a value that our country is founded on.

This has always been respected by Democrats and Republicans alike until the past few years. Now all of a sudden, we have a President (George W. Bush) on TV who is always trying to work religion into his speeches, etc. (This could be considered promoting a religion, which isn't the government's place. He is supposed to represent EVERYONE.) He wants everyone to know that he is a Christian. Why the change with this President? He saw the reaction to this by people of his faith. Some Christians started showing him support solely based on the fact that he is a Christian. They weren't looking at the other aspects of his presidency. He saw how this worked, and he started doing it more and more. It was a great way to build his voting base and take people away from looking at other issues. He and his party starts portraying the other side as immoral and not supporting Christian values. More and more Christians buy into this, and the churches even start to get involved in this. You have churches promoting candidates. Ministers telling their congregations who to vote for, and elders in the church handing out flyers of who to vote for. All of this happening during church. (I have seen it first hand here.) This is a very dangerous snowball effect!

What is this?! Government shouldn't be promoting religion, no more than religion should be promoting candidates. It doesn't mix, and it shouldn't. If religious groups/churches are going to support candidates, then they should be paying taxes. They are no longer apolitical. If the President is going to support a certain religious group, are we going to change the Consitution and jeopardize our country and divide us? My answer would be "NO!" Churches need to stop promoting candidates, and Presidents need to stop promoting religion.

Both need to focus on the real issues at hand. Terrorism, job loss, the war, the huge deficit, education, etc. The things that matter to all Americans. Things we can unite on and change together. We shouldn't be focusing on things that divide us, such as religion.

Also, I would like to shoot down the idea that the Republican Party is the only moral party and the Democratic Party is immoral. Here are the ideals that I have heard that make the Republicans moral: (1) Against abortion + (2) against gay marriage=morality. Well, I would like to point out that Roe vs. Wade happened on a republican's watch (Nixon was the President.) There have been five, Republican Presidents including George W. Bush and his father since the decision and not a single one of them have change or abolished abortion, nor have they appointed judges who have change the decision. We need to realize that this an issue that isn't going to be truely addressed by either side, because it is such a sensitive subject. Just look at the above. Gay marriage is an issue that the Republicans purposely brought up for election time, because they knew they could get many Christians up in arms about that. George W. Bush tried to bring up a consitutional amendment on this topic, and it didn't pass even with a Republican Congress and a Republican President supporting it. This isn't going to happen either. Besides, how is this going to effect the lives of people, except for the gay individuals that it pertains? Also, we, as Christians, are not supposed to judge people, as it states in the Bible.

The point is they are talking about Christian ideals, but they aren't enforcing them, which is why the Christians are supposed to be supporting them in the first place. Very stranged? Also, it is the Republicans, not the Democrats, who came up with the plan and sent us to war where innocent men, women, and children are dying daily. Isn't a life, a life? I, as a Christian, believe that "Thou Shall Not Kill." Yet, most Christians are supporting this war and the President who sent us. They are supporting a President who is for the death penalty, etc.

Democrats are supposed to be the anti-Christ, but most of them didn't support this war. They aren't for the death penalty. They haven't voted to change abortion laws, but neither have the Republicans. Therefore, it is a draw on that issue.

In conclusion, the point is people shouldn't vote based on religion. They should vote on issues that the government is responsible for: creating jobs, decreasing the deficit, lowering government spending, preventing war and only going when necessary, stopping terrorism, etc., and they should vote for the candidate who is going to handle these issues the best. Things that affect everyone's daily life. Things that should concern all Americans, not just a few. That is the reason why so many people are disenfranchised right now, and some people are angry with some Christians. They just don't understand how people could believe President Bush is so moral, when only his voice, not his actions, say he is.

Therefore, I couldn't see myself not voting for Kerry!

strandinthewind · #8 11-08-2004, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

But Kerry wasn't your only choice.

I've voted third-party before, mostly because I ordinarily don't vote party lines. I like the Republican political platform, and position-wise I am pretty much a Republican, but have serious issues with the people that seem to end up on the ticket.

I have friends, Republican and Democrat, who say voting third-party or writing in is throwing your vote away. But when your head hits the pillow at night, what does your conscience tell you if you vote for someone who opposes something you so passionately believe in?

This has always, and will always, bother me.

No, he was my only choice because he had the only chance of beating W, which was my goal. I know that sucks, but reality is reality. Thus, I voted for Kerry.

strandinthewind · #9 11-08-2004, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Bush, and the Republican party in general, don't even want to give us that much.

Yep - I mean look at the language of all (I think it is all) of the unanimously passed 11 Const. amendments. They all prohibit civil unions as does the one proffered for the Federal Const. I mean that is just B.S. and against public opinion, which mostly favors some type of civil union. Yet, the R's wrote the Amendments with this anti-civil union lang. in the latter part and did not really tell anyone about it in the advertising. For example, in Georgia, on the ballot, the question (designed by the GA Legislature under the control and drive of the R's) read:
( ) YES

( ) NO
Shall the Constitution be amended so as to provide that this state shall recognize as marriage only the union of man and woman?"

BUT - the bill actually reads:

Recognition of marriage. (a) This state shall recognize as marriage only the union of man and woman. Marriages between persons of the same sex are prohibited in this state.
(b) No union between persons of the same sex shall be recognized by this state as entitled to the benefits of marriage. This state shall not give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other state or jurisdiction respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other state or jurisdiction. The courts of this state shall have no jurisdiction to grant a divorce or separate maintenance with respect to any such relationship or otherwise to consider or rule on any of the parties´ respective rights arising as a result of or in connection with such relationship."

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2...text/sr595.htm

So, they left the people of Georgia no choice but to vote against gay marriage, which is widely unsupported, and simultaneously and somewhat clandestinely prohibit ALL civil unions of any type (hetero or homo) in the process.

Just bad, mean, vile, liars - the lot of them - and the D's signed onto this as well - jerks

dissention · #10 11-09-2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Oh crap, here he goes again.

But seriously...

Much of the hurt over the election seems to come from the far right's opposition, with the full support of "their candidate," to gay marriage. What comfort would someone take in voting for either candidate based on this issue?

I don't think anyone needs confirmation of W's stance here. But Kerry's is confounding:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/..._gay_marriage/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4245324

And here's a great one:

http://boifromtroy.com/archives/002740.php (click with confidence; this ain't porn)

Seems an anti-war, pro-gay marriage voter had a very limited choice to truly vote with conscience: Nader, if he was even on the ballot in your state.

He was in Alabama, in the heart of Jesusland.

I'll go with the candidate who openly admits to attending gay weddings, voted against the Marriage Act of '98, says the federal government has no place to ban gay marriage, and who most likely supports it but doesn't say so publicly because it would kill his chance of getting in the WH. That's Kerry.

JamieSPC · #11 11-09-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dissention

says the federal government has no place to ban gay marriage, and who most likely supports it but doesn't say so publicly because it would kill his chance of getting in the WH. That's Kerry.

Sorry, dissention... you just broke your own rules: filtering to support your argument, and not citing a source.

The reason he said the federal government has no place to ban gay marriage is because the states are doing a fine job of it themselves... including Massachusetts, where he would HAVE SUPPORTED THE BAN!

Most likely supports it? Cite your source.

Quote:

But, I want to make it clear that, while he came out on the side of gay marriage bans, Kerry did actively support the recognition of gay civil unions.

So did Bush, and it pissed off a lot of people. A lot of people that I happen to disagree with.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6338458

dissention · #12 11-09-2004, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Sorry, dissention... you just broke your own rules: filtering to support your argument, and not citing a source.

Hardly. Do a Google. I'm sick and tired of always being the one to research the facts for you lazy folks; Republicans have computers, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

The reason he said the federal government has no place to ban gay marriage is because the states are doing a fine job of it themselves... including Massachusetts, where he would HAVE SUPPORTED THE BAN!

Puhleeze. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that in 1998, barely any states were trying to ban gay marriage. This was the same time that the Defense of Marriage Act was voted on. Kerry voted against it and plainly stated then exactly why he didn't support it: he doesn't think the federal government should be regulating such things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieSPC

Most likely supports it? Cite your source.

I don't have one, it's my opinion.

Show me a person who is opposed to gay marriage and a federal ban on them yet attends a gay wedding and I'll sell you a swamp in Florida.