Destiny Rules and Lindsey

[Anthony]

After seeing Destiny Rules on VH1, I think I understand why Lindsey seems so frustrated.

[Cammie]

Hi Anthony...We surely DO agree with you!
What a convaluted way to do the bu$ine$$ of
making a record! Pu$h & Pull & Take $ides!
Lindsey sure was tired out by the end...so glad
he got his strength back to tour Brilliantly!!!Sky

[paleshadow]

Yes, but at the end of the day, he's still rich, and he gets to do what he loves. Forgive me for not breaking out the kleenex.

[Mari]

frustration is a relative thing, yeah. But I think I understand it too. I admire him for 'trying'.

[strandinthewind]

I admire him for trying - I just question his sincerity

I mean does he really think Warners is going to advance several million dollars to an essentially and relatively commercially dead solo artist to make a record that will not be a commercial success. I am amazed that LB does not get this point. I mean I am all for him to make songs like "Come" and other stranger stuff. But, I think that if he wants to have someone else pay for him to do it, he better learn to compromise to Big Daddy with the Dollars. Its not like this is his first time making a record Thus, I conclude that while LB likes to talk a good game about being a maverick and wanting to be anything but commercial, he fully realizes he needs to be a commerical success to have his luxuries, which I do not blame him one bit for wanting. I mean at least Stevie is honest about realizing that her music must sell to the massess for her to maintain her lifestyle.

I the end, I think LB's whole maverick schtick is rote a la the whole love affair on stage act that he and SN do every night nothwithstanding any real emotion they may otherwise have for each other. I think the maverick bit sells for him and FM. And, I think LB actually brilliantly walk the line and produces great music.

[Les]

I think Lindsey "gets" all of it Strand. He just remains idealistic enough about what he believes music and art should be that he never gives up trying to take it there. There's no schtick involved, in my humble opinion. I think he's absolutely sincere about every bit of it and there's not a thing wrong with it -- whether its deemed "good business" or not. It's something I admire.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I admire him for trying - I just question his sincerity
I mean does he really think Warners is going to advance several million dollars to an essentially and relatively commercially dead solo artist to make a record that will not be a commercial success. I am amazed that LB does not get this point. I mean I am all for him to make songs like "Come" and other stranger stuff. But, I think that if he wants to have someone else pay for him to do it, he better learn to compromise to Big Daddy with the Dollars

Jason, I'm not sure that your "have someone else pay for him to do it" commment is well placed here. I have seen no indication from Lindsey that he thinks he should get any kind of free ride.

I think it's OK to understand his frustration -- how it's important to be creative to remain true to your art but simultanuously having to acquiesce to commercial interests. He obviously understands this, judging from his final decision on the double album, but he still has the right to be frustrated by it.

It must be especially frustrating when he looks back at which of his songs have been FM hits: GYOW, Tusk, Big Love. None of those songs could really be considered "commercial" at the time of their release. Yet, now they are classics. So it is possible to release non-formula music that attains a level of success.

What probably is more of an issue, and one that the members of the band don't seem to recognize, is that FM is not going to sell millions and millions of new releases anymore. At best, they'll do a million or two. SYW hasn't gone platinum yet, as far as I know. So why not just go record some edgy stuff, get it out there and make your money on the tour? As it happens, the new album is not the dizzying commercial success they seemed to think it would be, commercial songs and all.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Les
I think Lindsey "gets" all of it Strand. He just remains idealistic enough about what he believes music and art should be that he never gives up trying to take it there. There's no schtick involved, in my humble opinion. I think he's absolutely sincere about every bit of it and there's not a thing wrong with it -- whether its deemed "good business" or not. It's something I admire.

I think that if LB was a true idealist, he would have released GOS on the net and never subjected himself to FM. But he did not do that. He made that choice to go to the very commerical FM. Given their history, which has been beaten and rehashed to death over the last 15 years - hence my feeling that he plays it up a bit, LB certainly did not go into the FM sessions with blinders on. So, while I think LB (and FM and SN for that matter) really does want to make every thing as good as he thinks it should be, LB clearly wants commercial success and all the things that come with it.

I think people think I am being unfair to LB by saying this. I am not. I like LB. I think he is brilliant. I am glad to hear new music from him. I flew from Atlanta to Chicago to see his Soundstage thing. So, its not about disliking LB I am just saying LB has a 25 year history of sort of appearing like he is so anti-establishment, anti-commerical, etc., but in the end he craves commercial viablity and always likes to appear like he is "selling out" to get it. I think after all of these years that feeling cannot be genuine - rather, I think it appears contrived after all of these years. I mean why else would he go back to the very commerical FM every time he needs commercial viability Some suggest it is because of his love for SN. While I think that has alot to do with it, I also think LB realizes he likes the way he lives and FM can provide him with the commerical success to keep living that way mostly in his own terms - I mean the GOS songs on SYW are not THAT different than GOS solo copies we all heard

In the end, LB could sell tapes out of the trunk of his Mercedes ( ) and I would buy them because I like his work.

As an aside and just a general comment, I think it is so interesting people in general seem to think commercial viability is a bad thing. I mean its not like every song of the radio is horrible

[strandinthewind]

Carne - I totally agree with you. But, I think SYW has hit singles in it that could have been huge if the moon and stars aligned just right. So, although now it is not a huge commerical success, I think it was thought it could be based on the commercial viability of songs like SYHA, BTLH, TD, SYW, SG, etc.

I just am just saying I am amazed LB seemingly always returns to the highly commercial FM to record when he must know what "they" will make him do in terms of art and commercial viability. In the end, I think he loves being around Stevie so he sacrifices. That is the only explanation that works for me

Also, I was not implying LB thinks he should get a free ride. I was referring to the conversation in the DR doc. where they are talkng about going with Warners because that was the largest advance. Interestingly, Stevie even mentions that LB might want to reconsider Warners and go with Interscope. I am just saying Warners is not going to advance millions of $$$ for a non commercial record. Clearly LB knows this

[wondergirl9847]

He knows that there is a built-in audience for FM and those people will get to hear his music, unlike going solo, where he won't sell very many copies.

It's a double-edged sword, I think. Either play with FM and be called a "sellout" or put our your solo music and barely anyone hears it. Lindsey (Will He Ever Win?)

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I think that if LB was a true idealist, he would have released GOS on the net and never subjected himself to FM. But he did not do that. He made that choice to go to the very commerical FM. Given their history, which has been beaten and rehashed to death over the last 15 years - hence my feeling that he plays it up a bit, LB certainly did not go into the FM sessions with blinders on. So, while I think LB (and FM and SN for that matter) really does want to make every thing as good as he thinks it should be, LB clearly wants commercial success and all the things that come with it.

ITA - he had many options available to him and enough resources to get the music out independently if he really wanted it released. But he didn't. He chose to make it a Fleetwood Mac project when he could have just started his own label and distributed it over the Net. Lauper did it, so does Aimee Mann. Rick Vito even does it (or did). He's a rich bastard, he could've gotten it out there somehow.

While I can see where Lindsey is coming from as an artist, his whole Todd Solendz/apartment bit was laughable. He'd be very disappointed and let down if SYW had sold 300,000 copies, so I fail to how he would've been able to cope with the miserable failure of a solo record. The fact is, he wants to be the "starving artist"-type and commercial success and money, but unfortunately, he's at that stage in his career where he can't really have both. He can either turn his material into Mac material and make some fast clams, or he can swallow a lot of money and put out the kind of stuff he wants to as an artist with no restrictions, losing a bit of money in the process.

Now, in order to sell a lot of albums, he succumbed to rehashing the band history and compromised his artistry. Yeah, he has a wife and three kids, but can anyone tell me that they can't live comfortably for the rest of their lives unless he makes a Fleetwood Mac album with commercial appeal? Puhleaze. He wants to sell albums, that's obvious. So he promotes them by talking about his relationship with Stevie ad nauseum, blah, blah, blah. It's a conscious attempt to sell albums.

His comment about Stevie possibly pulling out after 40 shows was also a bit lame. So, he was going to make SYW a double and eat the cost only if they kept touring and making steak? It's all just a convoluted mess. He wants to be commercially viable so he can sell as many records as possible, so that he rakes in the cash. But then, he wants to be the artist and release music on his own terms a la a double album, but only if he can be guaranteed that they'll continue touring and making dough. It's almost as if he's saying he wants to release a double, but only if the others keep at it so that he makes his money back that he's gonna lose.

I love the guy and his music to death, but he's simply out of touch with reality and lives in just a big a dream world as dear Stevie. The tortured artist routine is old; he can bitch all he wants, but no one is forcing him to do anyhting he doesn't want to do.

Just my thoughts, don't flame me, Carne.

[dissention]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
He knows that there is a built-in audience for FM and those people will get to hear his music, unlike going solo, where he won't sell very many copies.

But this is the man that said if his music only reached the right couple of folks, he would be content and satisfied because at least two people heard it.

Sorry, if Kathie Lee can sell 32,000 copies in todays market, Lindsey could at least double that figure.

[Les]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I think that if LB was a true idealist, he would have released GOS on the net and never subjected himself to FM.

I guess I missed the memo on what a "true" idealist is.

But he did not do that. He made that choice to go to the very commerical FM. Given their history, which has been beaten and rehashed to death over the last 15 years - hence my feeling that he plays it up a bit, LB certainly did not go into the FM sessions with blinders on.

Blinders? No. But he clearly thought he went with FM with what he thought was buy in from Mick to do a double album. That means he thought he was going to be able to get more his music to a broader audience, which I think is quite important to him. It also means he thought that the bigger artistic statement that he saw the double ablum as being, wasn't something he was going to have to battle for so hard this time around.

So, while I think LB (and FM and SN for that matter) really does want to make every thing as good as he thinks it should be, LB clearly wants commercial success and all the things that come with it.

Your assumption is that he wants to reach a broader audience because he wants more money/luxuries. That's not an equation that I make.

I think people think I am being unfair to LB by saying this. I am not. I like LB. I think he is brilliant.

I don't think you're unfair. It just appears to me that you don't take him particularly seriously. You said something about how "at least Stevie is being honest about wanting to make money." That's fine if you feel that way. But just because Lindsey is willing to make less money in service of a different sort of artistic statement doesn't make him less honest. He's just got different priorities.

You seem to feel that his talking about being an artist first, with everything else about the business being secondary to that is all a put on and has always been a put on. I think that's a remarkably cynical view to take of him. That's all.

I am just saying LB has a 25 year history of sort of appearing like he is so anti-establishment, anti-commerical, etc., but in the end he craves commercial viablity and always likes to appear like he is "selling out" to get it.

I disagree. I think he loathes the idea that one would think he's selling out.

I think after all of these years that feeling cannot be genuine - rather, I think it appears contrived after all of these years.

So, I guess I'm trying to understand. Do you think everything he said in the documentary was all for show and really it was an elaborate ruse to make sure that nobody would think he was really just dying to roll around in mounds of cash? Wouldn't simply going with an easy single album, and skipping all of the money talk in front of the cameras have been a slightly more straightforward and simple way to do that?

I mean why else would he go back to the very commerical FM every time he needs commercial viability

He's said hundreds of times by now, I dare say, that he's far more able to appreciate the chemistry of the band now and feels it's very special that they can all still come back together and still feel the spark of doing something special. He's also said it's a lot easier to get material released under the name of Fleetwood Mac because labels open the door for Fleetwood where they close the door to Buckingham.

As an aside and just a general comment, I think it is so interesting people in general seem to think commercial viability is a bad thing. I mean its not like every song of the radio is horrible

Well, by the same token, I guess I think it's odd that some are seemingly offended by the notion that making the most money he can possibly make on every project isn't his main motivator.

[strandinthewind]

I was getting the idea that LB certainly is interested in the commerical appeal and the money that comes with it from his own statements that he has a wife, a new house, and kids. In the doc., he stated he was concerned about supporting them in his well earned and well deserved lifestyle through the music on SYW and the subsequent tour revenues. Thus, my problem with LB's acting like the tortured artist always being forced to bend to the evil commercial side of music when he repeatedly and clearly does it of his own free will. Its a little bit like the boy who cried wolf once too often. After 25 years, his credibility when he says the band, the record company, etc. made him sacrifice his art is a bit tarnished.

I mean after 25 years and a very recent self-admitted snub by Warners, I just cannot believe LB would think that FM and Warners were not going to assert creative control over him, esp. after LB consciously chose Warners and accepted their millions in advance. Again, his GOS songs were not that changed for SYW, the lyric change Peacekeeper being the only possible exception and he stated he did not have a problem with that. In the end, I think record execs. and FM know that although the tension in FM is real, a played up tension sells more. They have been relying on this theory for 25 years. Just as I think there is very real emotion behind SN and LB's clearly contrived current stage antics, I similarly think that although LB (and SN for that matter) clearly has artistic integrity, LB likes to make a show of it because he and Warners know it will help sell the product - it was in all the press surrounding the release of the record and here it is again. I mean who would have watched the doc. but us ( ) if everyone got along

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention

I love the guy and his music to death, but he's simply out of touch with reality and lives in just a big a dream world as dear Stevie. The tortured artist routine is old; he can bitch all he wants, but no one is forcing him to do anyhting he doesn't want to do.

Just my thoughts, don't flame me, Carne.

Interestingly, La Nicks came across as a savy businesswoman on the doc. She is well aware of the need to be commerically viable if she wants to maintain "the lifestyle" and she is still commerically viable although to a much lesser extent than she was in the 80's. Who would have thought our airy fairie Stevie could be so practicle Also, I thought Stevie went out of her way to make sure LB's feelings were not hurt ("I touch with gossamer wings" ). I thought she was not screaming at him like a harpy - except perhaps unintentionally in vocal warmup to Silver Girl I am glad those two have reached this place in their lives and am even happier with the music that comes from it

I the end, I think they made a band decision to release the 18/20 songs because that is what they are - a band