racism

[carrie721]

this topic was touched on briefly in the philly roll call thread, and i'm curious what other people have to say about it.

at what point are a person's observations considered "racist" and "offensive"?

the audiences at the stevie and lindsey shows i've been to have not exactly been, um, a rainbow coalition of all creeds and colors. they've been made up of white people. OLD white people, to be specific.

is THAT racist? or ageist?

i see a lot of people -- here and elsewhere -- who are quick to jump on anyone who makes such observations and call them racist and offensive. but is merely describing your experiences discriminatory?

that just doesn't wash with me. i don't want to live in some orwellian newspeak society where simply using racial descriptors and acknowledging physical differences among people gets me in "trouble." we don't live in a homogenous culture, so why pretend we do? almost nothing in pop culture or other realms of art and media has universal appeal to people of all backgrounds. so why on earth is it so "offensive" to recognize that simple truth?

thoughts?

[camchristo]

^I'm with ya. I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread. Hejeira was just posting his observations, as far as I could tell. Anyone who takes a moment to observe the crowd at FM, SN or LB shows can see that it is mostly a white (and old) crowd. I can't recall ever seeing a black person in the audience at any of the Mac, Stevie or Lindsey shows I've been too. Oh wait, there was a black girl at Stevie's soundstage taping. However, she was a model who was being paid to be there and admitted to me that she had no earthly idea who Stevie Nicks was and had to look her up online. She mentioned that she was really looking forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire show she was going to be paid to attend a few weeks later. Different demographics have different interest. I'm not saying those demographics don't overlap on occasion.

I don't think it's being racist to notice that. It's not like anyone said that black people aren't welcome at FM shows. They just commented that the usual suspects are old and white.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by camchristo

^I'm with ya. I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread. Hejeira was just posting his observations, as far as I could tell. Anyone who takes a moment to observe the crowd at FM, SN or LB shows can see that it is mostly a white (and old) crowd. I can't recall ever seeing a black person in the audience at any of the Mac, Stevie or Lindsey shows I've been too. Oh wait, there was a black girl at Stevie's soundstage taping. However, she was a model who was being paid to be there and admitted to me that she had no earthly idea who Stevie Nicks was and had to look her up online. She mentioned that she was really looking forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire show she was going to be paid to attend a few weeks later. Different demographics have different interest. I'm not saying those demographics don't overlap on occasion.

I don't think it's being racist to notice that. It's not like anyone said that black people aren't welcome at FM shows. They just commented that the usual suspects are old and white.

When I saw Stevie in Vegas a few years ago, there was a young black woman in my row who brought her kid. She was singing and dancing along to every song! I remember being surprised to see a black person there. I agree with you both, I don't think it's racist to notice things like that.

[LukeA]

Back ten or so years ago, one of the most prolific posters on the Ledge happened to be a black man- a huge (straight) Stevie fan, for that matter. I also once saw a dude- looking like the spitting image of Morris Day- in a convertible driving down Dearborn in Chicago blasting "Murrow", of all songs.

Its true that Fleetwood Mac's fan base is not as organically integrated as, say, Springsteen's, or U2's, but I don't think this is anything that can be reflected at all upon anything. I didn't read the thread that this is apparently based on, but it sounds like (from your summarization) that its a waste of time anyways.

[carrie721]

^ i think it was a silly thing for someone to get "offended" over, but i see this issue come up fairly often, so i don't think a broader discussion is pointless.

[chriskisn]

I guess my question is (and remembering I'm Australian) why the need to make a point of mentioning the colour of someone's skin?

Do people comment "there were sure a lot of blondes at the show" or perhaps "Wow there were lots of people with hairy arms" or perhaps "half of the audience had big breasts". Of course not.

I understand that racism in the US is a lot more entrenched into society than in a country such as Australia (though don't worry we have our share), so people tend to look at that black vs white concept.

It is only the colour of a persons skin, not anything deeper than that.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

I guess my question is (and remembering I'm Australian) why the need to make a point of mentioning the colour of someone's skin?

Do people comment "there were sure a lot of blondes at the show" or perhaps "Wow there were lots of people with hairy arms" or perhaps "half of the audience had big breasts". Of course not.

I understand that racism in the US is a lot more entrenched into society than in a country such as Australia (though don't worry we have our share), so people tend to look at that black vs white concept.

It is only the colour of a persons skin, not anything deeper than that.

it is and it isn't.

i don't think that anyone should have opportunities closed off to them merely because they are a certain race. however ...

a person's appearance - and skin color is a part of that, even though it's something you can't control, unless you're michael jackson - can often say a lot about a person's cultural background. because of this, race can offer context and meaning to a story.

what gets under my (white, pasty) skin is when people take umbrage at any mention of race (and, really, you could substitute any label here, be it gender, sexuality, age, etc). to use the scenario that inspired this thread as an example, saying it is cool and interesting to see someone who, based on age and race, does not match fleetwood mac's usual demographic is absolutely benign.

and to use one of your examples (i know you were being facetious), if you saw someone with huge knockers at an itty bitty titty committee rally, that would be noteworthy.

i don't think there is any underlying bigotry in these comments; they're merely acknowedging a cognitive dissonance between the expected norm and reality. and moreover, i think it's an overreaction to say that something is offensive when it's just a description of what someone saw.

i think it's cool when i see straight people in gay parts of town or white people in hispanic parts of town, etc etc. these labels aren't always irrelevant, but their relevance doesn't make them categorically pejorative.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by carrie721

this topic was touched on briefly in the philly roll call thread, and i'm curious what other people have to say about it.

at what point are a person's observations considered "racist" and "offensive"?

the audiences at the stevie and lindsey shows i've been to have not exactly been, um, a rainbow coalition of all creeds and colors. they've been made up of white people. OLD white people, to be specific.

is THAT racist? or ageist?

i see a lot of people -- here and elsewhere -- who are quick to jump on anyone who makes such observations and call them racist and offensive. but is merely describing your experiences discriminatory?

that just doesn't wash with me. i don't want to live in some orwellian newspeak society where simply using racial descriptors and acknowledging physical differences among people gets me in "trouble." we don't live in a homogenous culture, so why pretend we do? almost nothing in pop culture or other realms of art and media has universal appeal to people of all backgrounds. so why on earth is it so "offensive" to recognize that simple truth?

thoughts?

Music is culture. Black people have a different experience than a lot of white people. The same for whites. People gravitate toward music that represents that common experience. They also gravitate toward their heros and sheros.

If you don't see a lot people of different ethnic groups at a Fleetwood Mac or Stevie Nicks concert, so what? It's their loss.

[Jondalar]

Oh and by the way, I've mean't a lot of black and hispanic people who are extremely racist, so don't lay this **** on Fleetwood Mac's white racist music.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Fleetwood Mac's white racist music.

what are you talking about?!

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Oh and by the way, I've mean't a lot of black and hispanic people who are extremely racist, so don't lay this **** on Fleetwood Mac's white racist music.

yeah, what on earth are you talking about?

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by carrie721

yeah, what on earth are you talking about?

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think that, at any point, ANYBODY here ever accused the band of being racist.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think that, at any point, ANYBODY here ever accused the band of being racist.

I agree about this thread.

Interestingly, many years ago someone (Tyrisha maybe) asked whether La Nicks was a racist because, other than Bobbye Hall, none of her band up until and including then were white. If I remember correctly, it caused a huge argument at the time.