I went to Jones Beach today

[GardenStateGirlie]

so i'm going to go ahead and assume if you went out to jones beach that you did not have as much rain up there as we did down here -- it was flood city saturday. i haven't been up there since '04 but it was a very interesting venue to say the least!

[petep9000]

oh, it was rain-city here on Saturday too. I never even left my apartment that day. But Sunday....it was glorious. And perfectly fitting for the first day off of Standard Time. Praise to Helios, and to Ra, and Arien and Apollo and to all the other sun Gods and Goddess.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by petep9000

That book is on my list of things I want to read soon. I might pick it up next, after I finish the glurge my mother bought me ('The Gift'- a chicken soupy for the soul kinda book).

Robert Moses did do some great things. But, he also cut off access to the waterfront for most NYC folks with the West Side Highway and FDR Drive projects. But, now that our waterfront is no longer a 'working waterfront', I think slowly the desire for waterfront access will override the physical limitations and we'll some more creative thinking. Converting old piers, for one- or reclaiming land by using landfill.

I forgive him for that, when I see the stunning beauty of the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.

Did you get a chance to stop in the Robert Moses museum? Is it still open? I remember stopping in there many years ago... and we were the only paying customers in there. But at least it was air conditioned! Anyway, it was actually pretty fascinating... It was fascinating how he really left his impression on the New York landscape in the way of parkways, highways, bridges, etc. And I believe he was the one trying to ram a downtown Manhattan elevated roadway down everybody's throats, and Jane Jacobs was not having any of it (bless her heart). I could just imagine the West Village looking like Jackson Heights!

Glad it was such a nice day at Jones. I was out further east at my house and it was too windy to go out- the waves were just unbelievable. On my way back to the city I heard about Donald Trump opening a restaurant on the boardwalk at Jones Beach. Oh yeah, I'm sure Joe and Jane Six-Pack will want to head to the beach with their five kids and shell out $150 for fancy corndogs.

So let me guess... Parking Lot 6, right?

[petep9000]

Field 6, of course, always.

Yes, you're 100% right, Jane Jacobs halted Moses' efforts to plow right through Greenwich Village. Now that would have been a change to the urban landscape. Apparently, he was no major lover of mass transit and his vision of the future was all car-oriented. They say that the State Parks on Long Island were not accesible for the longest time, as he made the overpasses on the roadways too low for buses to pass under. This eliminated 'undesirables' (ie, poorer persons of color) from the urban areas from using his parks- Long Island at the time was pretty homogenously white. Tsk tsk.

[Ghost_Tracker]

I have a little "Jones Beach story" to tell, sort of.
Some of you might be like, ". . . .huh?" and some might be like, "Yeah, I know exactly what you mean." w/e., it's all good.

Anyway I arrived early for Stevie's concert at Jones Beach in 2005; and they weren't letting people in yet. So I went on over to the ocean - probably very close to where you took one of your photos - it was fairly close to the arena. And there was a dead horseshoe crab there. Stevie had just arrived and they had just started doing the sound check - playing "Stand Back." And I remember thinking - - - how fascinated Stevie is by nature - how she writes about it so often in her songs. And how, under some circumstances, Stevie would have LOVED to have gone out there and checked out that horseshoe crab. But at that moment - I mean, if somebody had mentioned it to her then? They'd be lucky if they got off with a blank stare and a "huh!?. . . . I'm BUSY now!"

Anyway - not that exciting, I admit, but somehow I found the whole thing interesting. I know she loves doing her shows, but I betcha there was some small part of her that would have wanted to blow off the show and go check that thing out, and maybe just sit down on the beach and write a song about it.

[petep9000]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

I have a little "Jones Beach story" to tell, sort of....
Anyway - not that exciting, I admit, but somehow I found the whole thing interesting. I know she loves doing her shows, but I betcha there was some small part of her that would have wanted to blow off the show and go check that thing out, and maybe just sit down on the beach and write a song about it.

I hope she has seen it. She said this during her stop there in June '86 (RAL tour):

"Well, we've been here, this is our second night and I haven't seen the ocean yet. Is there really an ocean out there?"
(audience cheers)
"It occurred to me that...[inaudible]"
BATB begins starts
"...I felt it though."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Did you get a chance to stop in the Robert Moses museum? Is it still open? I remember stopping in there many years ago... and we were the only paying customers in there. But at least it was air conditioned! Anyway, it was actually pretty fascinating... It was fascinating how he really left his impression on the New York landscape in the way of parkways, highways, bridges, etc. And I believe he was the one trying to ram a downtown Manhattan elevated roadway down everybody's throats, and Jane Jacobs was not having any of it (bless her heart). I could just imagine the West Village looking like Jackson Heights!

1. I love you for using "Bless her Heart"

2. The highway already goes to The Battery anyway.

3. You cannot tell me you do not breath a sigh of relief when you do not have to stop at every intersection when NY9A becomes elevated.

4. The Donald wanted to put the highway underground on the Upper West Side, but New Yorkers just could not IMO stand that he would make money off of it. At least he had the nads to try and do something to make the eyesore go away while keeping the functionality of it

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Glad it was such a nice day at Jones. I was out further east at my house and it was too windy to go out- the waves were just unbelievable. On my way back to the city I heard about Donald Trump opening a restaurant on the boardwalk at Jones Beach. Oh yeah, I'm sure Joe and Jane Six-Pack will want to head to the beach with their five kids and shell out $150 for fancy corndogs.

So let me guess... Parking Lot 6, right?

Lord Child - I went to the TISL show there. My friend, who lived on 191st at the time (thus my love for and sigh of relief when entering the elevated portion of the highway ) - wanted to take the LIRR there and back. Never happened and when I walked to the car past the hundreds if not thousands waiting for the BUSES to take them (hopefully in time) for the train back to the city and the driver opened the door and handed me a cocktail, I believe I breathed a sigh of relief harder than when entering the elevated portion of the WSH

[petep9000]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

4. The Donald wanted to put the highway underground on the Upper West Side, but New Yorkers just could not IMO stand that he would make money off of it. At least he had the nads to try and do something to make the eyesore go away while keeping the functionality of it

Yes, and it wasn't just The Donald either. That project was bandied about since the late 60's, I believe. It was killed by politics, basically. Oh, and someone finally dumped enough money into research studies that said a variety of migratory fish (striped bass?) would be disturbed by the contruction. A shame...this would have sunk the West Side Highway from sight, and opened up waterfront access to the masses. A mega-project, on the scale of Boston's 'Big Dig'. Anyway, at the time NYC was all about one project: The World Trade Center. Then in the 70's NYC had a severe economic crisis, then in the early 80's we had the recession...seems like time was never right for the west side project.

I still believe (though not in my lifetime) that uninterrupted, unimpeded waterfront access will become a reality in NYC now that it is no longer has a 'working' waterfront. There is just too big a demand for it, and too much $$ to be made from waterfront condos, recreation facilities and such. There are dribs and drabs now, and certainly more than there used to be. But, not all of it is easily accessible and some parts still completely closed off. One day, I also see the public housing on the East Side all uprooted and moved to newer developments somewhere further away...and the existing projects converted to tony apartments with waterfront views else torn down and started from scratch. The residents there are a captive audience, NYC's public housing clearly states they have no choice (only a preference) of where their flats will be. I dont advocate this, but I do believe it is not 100% outside the realm of possibility.

[strandinthewind]

I agree. I mean look at the condos being built on Riverside Blvd., which will connect in the near future to 59th and WEA - the begining of Hudson River Park. In fact, that whole Columbus Circle West area of Midtown West/Hell's Kitchen/Clinton is being revitalized. So, it seems to me that putting the highway underground makes sense, esp. when you have a private party who is a mover and a shaker who has demostrated that he can get things done is at the helm and his own money was in it

My fav. story about the construction of the elevated FDR on the East Side is that the well heeled tenants of way fab. Art Deco masterpiece, miscegenating Vanderbilt excluding co-op known as River House were incensed to lose their private dock/yacht moorings Oh well, at least they mantained the gardens and River Club, with its squash courts Oh the horror!

[Mywyldhrt]

Originally Posted by jannieC

I have always lived by the ocean- first in Wantagh and then in Mattituck. Later in life, I moved to Florida for a while. It's difficult to live in NC in that I am 3 hours from the beach.

Can you believe my father commuted first from Wantagh and then from Mattituck into Manhattan (where he worked) for over 20 years?

My dad lives in Massapequa-right off Hicksville rd!!

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by Mywyldhrt

My dad lives in Massapequa-right off Hicksville rd!!

I used to go to the Sunrise Mall in Massapequa when I was a kid. I haven't thought of this stuff in years!

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

1.

2. The highway already goes to The Battery anyway.

No, I'm not referring to the West Side Highway. I'm referring to a highway that Robert Moses wanted to build that would have run through the heart of what is known today as the West Village, Greenwich Village and SoHo. He was a megalomaniac- he wanted to be remembered as nothing less than the King of New York. Jane Jacobs rightfully argued that these kinds of highways had a tendency to destroy/isolate neighborhoods, which often fell prey to poverty, crime, drugs, etc. There are blighted areas like this all over Brooklyn and Queens that are proof of this. The West Side Highway, on the other hand, does not bisect any neighborhoods, with the exception of Battery Park City, which was meticulously pre-planned as an upscale residential development. Still, even though Battery Park City is not exactly a ghetto, it does have this vibe of being this desolate outpost that is not really part of Manhattan. It's kind of creepy, actually. There's no streetlife whatsoever and it is completely dead at night.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

3. You cannot tell me you do not breath a sigh of relief when you do not have to stop at every intersection when NY9A becomes elevated.

I breathe a sigh of relief when I come back from upstate, i.e., above 23rd St.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

4. The Donald wanted to put the highway underground on the Upper West Side, but New Yorkers just could not IMO stand that he would make money off of it. At least he had the nads to try and do something to make the eyesore go away while keeping the functionality of it

They were also considering doing that with the West Side Highway south of Chambers St. as part of the WTC reconstruction project. I think the idea kinda died out due to the prohibitive construction costs, which would have been more than the cost of rebuilding the skyscrapers themselves. I think the Donald is all talk, and he probably said this just to make the west-facing owners of his crappy condo development on WEA happy about their "investments." Those suckers are literally a dozen feet from the highway. Must feel nice having paid over a million bucks for a tiny one bedroom apartment and sucking exhaust fumes 24/7.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Lord Child - I went to the TISL show there. My friend, who lived on 191st at the time (thus my love for and sigh of relief when entering the elevated portion of the highway ) - wanted to take the LIRR there and back. Never happened and when I walked to the car past the hundreds if not thousands waiting for the BUSES to take them (hopefully in time) for the train back to the city and the driver opened the door and handed me a cocktail, I believe I breathed a sigh of relief harder than when entering the elevated portion of the WSH

Child, not for all the curry in India would I take a bus to Jones. My name ain't Rosa Parks!

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by petep9000

I still believe (though not in my lifetime) that uninterrupted, unimpeded waterfront access will become a reality in NYC now that it is no longer has a 'working' waterfront. There is just too big a demand for it, and too much $$ to be made from waterfront condos, recreation facilities and such. There are dribs and drabs now, and certainly more than there used to be. But, not all of it is easily accessible and some parts still completely closed off. One day, I also see the public housing on the East Side all uprooted and moved to newer developments somewhere further away...and the existing projects converted to tony apartments with waterfront views else torn down and started from scratch. The residents there are a captive audience, NYC's public housing clearly states they have no choice (only a preference) of where their flats will be. I dont advocate this, but I do believe it is not 100% outside the realm of possibility.

Well, the waterfront does seem to be pretty accessible today, especially along the Hudson. If anything I'm kinda glad that the highway separates the riverfront parks because it somehow keeps the parks more pristine in a way. On the otherhand, if the waterfront was tied directly to the grid, you know there would be plenty of a$$-hats driving through the park or dumping their garbage (or bodies) there. Or there would be plenty of cops or firefighters with their city parking permits illegally parked everywhere. I love the fact that the waterfront today is strictly pedestrian only and that it truly is for everyone, and not just for the rich.

As for public housing... I seriously doubt the projects in Manhattan will be going away anytime soon. For one thing, there are soooo many units. Secondly, there would be such an incredible backlash against any politico even hinting at the suggestion that these projects should be relocated. And it goes without saying that it smacks of racism and classism, even if that is not the motive.

[petep9000]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well, the waterfront does seem to be pretty accessible today, especially along the Hudson.

Yes, but it's not uninterrupted. Sure, there are long stretches of recreational areas, but you couldn't make a complete circumnavigation of the island- and I bet alot of cyclists and nature enthusiasts would love that. Well one good thing they've done in the last dozen years or so is enable crossing over the West Side highway to the piers. I remember at the end of Christopher Street, trying to cross over and playing chicken with the 6 lanes of traffic. Ya coulda got killed, I tell ya.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

As for public housing... I seriously doubt the projects in Manhattan will be going away anytime soon. For one thing, there are soooo many units. Secondly, there would be such an incredible backlash against any politico even hinting at the suggestion that these projects should be relocated. And it goes without saying that it smacks of racism and classism, even if that is not the motive.

Yes, and again I'm not saying it will be in my lifetime or if it's even right. I just don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. Stranger things have happened. And besides, isn't the idea of putting the poor in concentrated areas stigmatizing in itself? I think it's a very old model, a paradigm. Why not integrate those who can't afford the higher market rents into the mainstream communities, by making a greater percentage of those rentals stabilized, or low-cost? I know, it's a fantasy world I live in. And, it's an unfair world too.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

No, I'm not referring to the West Side Highway . . . .

Mea Culpa

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Still, even though Battery Park City is not exactly a ghetto, it does have this vibe of being this desolate outpost that is not really part of Manhattan. It's kind of creepy, actually. There's no streetlife whatsoever and it is completely dead at night.

Very creepy at night and almost hazy and dreamlike during the day. I will say this though, the views are stunning.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I breathe a sigh of relief when I come back from upstate, i.e., above 23rd St.

How vivid.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Child, not for all the curry in India would I take a bus to Jones. My name ain't Rosa Parks!

You ain't lying on that Child.