What do you think?....

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you taken philosophy classes? Such things are taught in them as existentialist beliefs and they aren't regarded or defined as "cynicism". I'm not speaking about physical inventions.

I haven't taken philosophy yet, but will next fall. So, if not physical inventions or anything Amber said, what do you mean?

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you taken philosophy classes? Such things are taught in them as existentialist beliefs and they aren't regarded or defined as "cynicism". I'm not speaking about physical inventions.

I've taken philosophy classes. But that is still a certain web of beliefs, a belief system. Admittedly, my classes have not delved deeply into this, but I just cannot ignore the science and logic that tells me that what came before leads to what is. Did you read the previous posts? can you honestly say that without what came in the past, we would still have, and know, what we have and know today?

[amber]

And what do you mean you are not speaking about inventions? Isn't that the most direct, logical evidence we have that everything is connected? Oh, besides the fact that if so and so hadn't done this and that, you and I would not be alive today?

[amber]

Originally Posted by Lux

Well Amber what I was saying isn't dependent on Science nor Science shows. Science is one of the theories I was referring to. I think it's the most useful one for our purposes but I believe like all other theories that it is designed after the fact and doesn't determine the fact. I'm willing to use it as the useful for our living purposes but I think that it doesn't determine probability and that it comes in after. I therefore think anything is possible and that Science will provide an explanation following the event or discovery but that it doesn't determine reality. I believe reality determines the theory, not vice versa.

Ah. I see. but at this point, science is our best tool for studying reality. And also, I think that science studies things that what we see, ie, reality could not possibly determine. If we followed only reality, wouldn't we still think that all the planets revolve around the earth? If you see what I mean. But I see you think that probabilities cannot be determined by science, that science can only come in after (am I getting your meaning right?). I disagree, for I think that scientific methods, and math, can determine probabilities. Not always, naturally, but I think the fault there lies with science's capabilities, not with the fact that probabilities are not predictable...(I think they are, in most cases).
But if you mean something else - ie "anything is possible, and that science will provide an explanation following the event" (your words) then of course I agree, but I think that we do not even know the tip of the iceberg of what is actually happening, but I think that whatever is happening, it is inextricably connected to whatever else has happened, throughout time, always. But I think that theory is basic science as well. Anyway - you could be right, I'm only barely aquainted with Chaos theory. but what i have studied definitely tells me that everything is connected.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by dissention

Not if Courtney Love is any indication.

ARE YOU CHANNELING ME ?

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you taken philosophy classes? Such things are taught in them as existentialist beliefs and they aren't regarded or defined as "cynicism". I'm not speaking about physical inventions.

Oh how I HATED my one philosophy class! I was in an "honors" philosophy class and it was called "Human Existence and Trancendence". My parents would have died if they heard the crap being tossed around in there!

This kind of stuff is so deep that it makes my head hurt, so I don't try to think about it too much or too often!

That being said, I think all things are interrelated. I think there is a thread of truth to "Destiny Rules" . I think it is a mix of "free will" and some sense of predetermination. Figuring out how those two things relate to each other, if at all, is something that has fractured many Protestant denominations (for example), and heck if I am gonna be able to figure any of it out!

[tynan88]

I personally believe in pre-determination, I think that a variety of actions will lead to the same consequence, however I agree that what we say will result from our actions will not always happen, however what does happen is certain we just can't be certain of the certainty.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

I've taken philosophy classes. But that is still a certain web of beliefs, a belief system.

As are the things you've said. This thread is titled "What do you think?" We're all essentially commenting on things that, in the grand scheme of things, we know next to nothing about. It's all about we think and believe, not what we know, because nothing is proven.

Originally Posted by amber

Admittedly, my classes have not delved deeply into this, but I just cannot ignore the science and logic that tells me that what came before leads to what is.

There's certainly much room for error in science. I believe that much of the time, the scientific community doesn't know their ass from their hat. There's a human desire to want to put an explanation onto something, regardless if it makes much sense. They do it because it makes them feel better about things that they simply do not have the ability to grasp.

Originally Posted by amber

Did you read the previous posts? can you honestly say that without what came in the past, we would still have, and know, what we have and know today?

I read them and I'm not speaking from a standpoint regarding physical things such as pollution and modern inventions, I'm speaking from a somewhat spiritual standpoint. I, personally, in the broadest terms, do not put faith or believe in things such as God, I believe that everything passes eventually and results in nothing. We're essentially meaningless in this world as individuals.

I just finished reading a book called "Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution" by Eugene Rose about a week ago that I thought was quite good, you might like it. It talks about a lot these things and it's pretty cheap (I think I got it for $8). The guy is an absolute quack because he rebutts every nihilistic belief with something about Christianity, but it's a fun read. Any book on existential nihilism is a fun read, IMO.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

This kind of stuff is so deep that it makes my head hurt, so I don't try to think about it too much or too often!

It is, and it's very hard to express with words.

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

As are the things you've said. This thread is titled "What do you think?" We're all essentially commenting on things that, in the grand scheme of things, we know next to nothing about. It's all about we think and believe, not what we know, because nothing is proven.



There's certainly much room for error in science. I believe that much of the time, the scientific community doesn't know their ass from their hat. There's a human desire to want to put an explanation onto something, regardless if it makes much sense. They do it because it makes them feel better about things that they simply do not have the ability to grasp.



I read them and I'm not speaking from a standpoint regarding physical things such as pollution and modern inventions, I'm speaking from a somewhat spiritual standpoint. I, personally, in the broadest terms, do not put faith or believe in things such as God, I believe that everything passes eventually and results in nothing. We're essentially meaningless in this world as individuals.

I just finished reading a book called "Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution" by Eugene Rose about a week ago that I thought was quite good, you might like it. It talks about a lot these things and it's pretty cheap (I think I got it for $8). The guy is an absolute quack because he rebutts every nihilistic belief with something about Christianity, but it's a fun read. Any book on existential nihilism is a fun read, IMO.

I understand your disbelief in god, I don't believe either. And i'm not saying we are meaningful. But, I am saying, that what we do, and what everyone has always done, effects all that is to come after. Meaningless or not (and believe me, I can't imagine that we aren't meaningless, except to other beings who have to inhabit the planet we share). Also, I don't believe that everything results in nothing, because, we all leave a mark (unless you're talking about super big picture nothingness, in which case i would agree). But as far as what we leave affecting other beings, things, on the planet, well, I think it does. I am interested to read that book. because, I can see how I, personally, affect people to the smallest nuance, and how people affect me, and how energy travels thusly, to infinity. If you are speaking more largely, then, heck yeah. Who cares about our entire universe? I mean, everything is essentially meaningless, except to the people/things experiencing it.
Did that make sense? sometimes my brain gets too big for my britches

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by dissention

It is, and it's very hard to express with words.

Yes - and until I got away from my sheltered upbringing I never thought about a lot of these things, simply because such things were never discussed in my parents home. Thank god for a good liberal arts education - although I am still paying $$$ for it!

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

Thank god for a good liberal arts education - although I am still paying $$$ for it!

I hear ya!

[amber]

Originally Posted by Lux

Yes, I think what you're saying is what I meant....I think. Of course I don't expect you to agree but yes, I think that mathematics can only deal with explaining previous occurances and whilst we might use it as a prediction, it can't be used as absolute truth. For example, I think that if we still believed the planets revolved our us, then mathematics and science would formulate an explanation for this and all subsequent theories would not play any part in determining the truth. The reality of it not working this way would obviously not have been accounted for in any such mathematical theories and so I believe that whilst what we have is proving useful for us, that it cannot account for the limitless possibilities.

Good point. But I think it is the best tool we have for explaining things we cannot possibly see - and I think science is light years ahead of what most humans's understanding is of what is going on. Seriously - the fact that time is another dimension? the weird things the human brain can do/respond to? do you keep up with science? I try to, it blows my mind continuously with the possibilities it presents. I really think, for the most part, it is way ahead of what humans understand as "possibilities". Most people don't know about science stuff, though.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

Yes - and until I got away from my sheltered upbringing I never thought about a lot of these things, simply because such things were never discussed in my parents home. Thank god for a good liberal arts education - although I am still paying $$$ for it!

Hmmm. I've thought about this stuff every since i was very young. I had a hunger to learn about it. But then, I was not raised as you were. But i've always asked weird questions about everything. The cosmic everything, that is.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

I understand your disbelief in god, I don't believe either. And i'm not saying we are meaningful. But, I am saying, that what we do, and what everyone has always done, effects all that is to come after. Meaningless or not (and believe me, I can't imagine that we aren't meaningless, except to other beings who have to inhabit the planet we share). Also, I don't believe that everything results in nothing, because, we all leave a mark (unless you're talking about super big picture nothingness, in which case i would agree). But as far as what we leave affecting other beings, things, on the planet, well, I think it does.

But on the flip side, in regards to quantum physics, there's no way of really saying how something is affected by something else. When we observe something, we aren't seeing it in its natural state; it appears differently for us. It's altered for our sight. So how would it be possible to gauge the effects one thing has on another if we are never seeing something as it truly is? That is the question.

Originally Posted by amber

I am interested to read that book. because, I can see how I, personally, affect people to the smallest nuance, and how people affect me, and how energy travels thusly, to infinity. If you are speaking more largely, then, heck yeah. Who cares about our entire universe? I mean, everything is essentially meaningless, except to the people/things experiencing it.
Did that make sense? sometimes my brain gets too big for my britches

I am speaking more largely because I'm not concerned, when it comes to this discussion, with how pollution affects people twenty years from now or thousands of years from now. And yes, you made a bit of sense. :P