Has Fm.lb,sn Reached Their End?

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

And Lindsey's photo on the cover of Under The Skin has the same problem. It is is pensive, arty, and dark in a way that is too generic.

oh, that's one gorgeous photo of lindsey, although i like the version with grayish tint better than the one on the cover that has yellowish tint.

Originally Posted by cbBen

He should have re-cut "Say Goodbye" instead of pasting her on top of his sped-up solo version. It would have worked much better (just look at Live In Boston or Soundstage). Say Goodbye is a great great Lindsey song but he should have either left it for Under The Skin, or re-cut it with Stevie to make it feel like an integrated piece of work. The center channel mix of Steal Your Heart Away proves what great work she did on that song (that "if that's all there is" she throws in there at the end). But it's completely buried in the mix! Again, all he was after was her "presence" on the material. There is only one Stevie Nicks and, even with her voice in its worsened shape, she has something unique to offer to Lindsey's material -- if he will let her.

i see this argument over and over and don't really understand it. lindsey should have been allowed to put out GOS1 when it was done. WB prevented that, and made him roll the songs that were perfectly done into SYW. you and others keep saying how LB spends too much time tinkering in the studio, but then wanted him to spend even more time and start all over again with his GOS1 songs that ended up on SYW. these songs were done. they needed to be put out as a perfect solo album that should have been. instead i have to now listen to SYW (which is still a great great album, imo, b/c of how great just 1/3 of LB GOS1 songs that ended up on it are) and skip most of the SN songs that are not at the same level. if she brought to SYW some of the songs that are on IYD, that would be a different story, i wouldn't have to skip so much. again, just my opinion - tastes are very different and hard to account for.

Originally Posted by cbBen

Maybe Richard Dashut played more of a role than we realized.

from what i've seen lindsey and dashut have always had some kind of bromance going. personally, i'd love for dashut to participate in another FM album, but everybody who's so worried about stevie's comfort in making another FM album may want to take the bromance factor into account. now dashut, lindsey and stewart all together - that may be interesting!

[elle]

Originally Posted by David

Forcing an equivalence between externals (star power) & internals (intraband politics) is the quickest way to destroy a band. The egos in a rock band are about as fragile as egos can be. Everyone is hypersensitive about his contributions. If you don't think that there's a direct correlation between the amount of work Band Member X does inside the group & his or her standing or input within the group, you've lost it. When the biggest star happens to be the person who does the least in the studio or even onstage (both have always been true in Stevie's case), that's going to create an insuperable obstacle of resentment. When getting together with your band is prickly & unpleasant, you're not going to bother doing so. That's why Fleetwood Mac went for years without working together, & why they still do so today.

So if you want Fleetwood Mac to "be a band again," it would be foolish to insist that Stevie Nicks be given the leveraging power within the band solely because she has the highest profile & biggest fan base outside the group. I've seen it happen a million times, & I've even experienced it directly: When the wrong person gets to make the decisions for the band, it fractures.

love every word of this post!

(and that's not the reaction i always have to David's posts)

[DallasDude]

Originally Posted by David

Do you mean an artistic success or a commercial success? If Chris rejoined the group, Mac fans would probably love the results & the feeling of closure. But the rest of the world isn't hanging around waiting for Chris McVie to rejoin Fleetwood Mac. The rest of the world doesn't care anymore. It isn't 1978.

A hypothetical Mac album with Chris wouldn't be any more likely to sell millions than one with just LB & SN writing & singing.

Fleetwood Mac wasn't expected to have another big seller in 1987, but they did. As for selling millions, those days are over for most supergroups. But I think it's the 3some voices that gives the Mac "that" sound, and the addition of Christine would also most likely balance the album and please most everyone. It would also bring some closure as I'm sure it will be the group's finale.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by cbBen

On a technical level, however, I must say I am in awe of Lindsey. Everything about "Show Me How" is great, right down to that trippy minute-long coda.

I agree with this. I think it is one of the best songs of his career. I had very high hopes for the album when this was one of the three songs previewed from it. He tripped me up when he changed the Show You How arrangement immediately, as soon as his UTS tour started, but it also sounded good live, once I became used to it. It took on a Hawaiian flavor, almost. I could definitely imagine Mick's drums on that song.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

A hypothetical Mac album with Chris wouldn't be any more likely to sell millions than one with just LB & SN writing & singing.

It's not that the world is waiting for it, but the media loves to hype this sort of thing and a reunion involving Christine would get more publicity than . . . Harold Camping.

I think it would sell more, just because more people would be aware of it, due to the increased media attention. It would get that little extra push and coverage boost that SYW and Unleashed outings did not.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by DallasDude

Fleetwood Mac wasn't expected to have another big seller in 1987, but they did.

Same story with 1997. No one could have predicted that The Dance would have the impact that it did either. I think the mainstream success it had took even Mac fans by surprise. However, I can't be sure, because I wasn't online with my Mac love back then.

Originally Posted by elle

oh, that's one gorgeous photo of lindsey,

Please, don't encourage Kristen's mug shot techniques.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Please, don't encourage Kristen's mug shot techniques.

Kristen took the UTS cover shot? didn't know that, but i have much more respect for her photography skills if she did.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

Kristen took the UTS cover shot? didn't know that, but i have much more respect for her photography skills if she did.

Oh, no I'm sorry. I got it mixed up. Kristen did GOS.

Michele

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

It's not that the world is waiting for it, but the media loves to hype this sort of thing and a reunion involving Christine would get more publicity than . . . Harold Camping.

I think it would sell more, just because more people would be aware of it, due to the increased media attention. It would get that little extra push and coverage boost that SYW and Unleashed outings did not.

But you guys are changing the rules before the game is over. I expect you're right that a studio project with all five fireflies would sell "more" than otherwise; but my assertion was that the addition of Christine wouldn't turn the project into a multimillion seller (like "The Dance").

I also disagree with DallasDude that the situation in 1987 was comparable in any substantial way. The Mac's album was about two years in the making (or at least in the news), & nobody really doubted that, when it was finally released, it would sell big. "Tango" didn't surprise anyone on the commercial front. Had the album sold like "Say You Will" (under a million), THAT would have been the surprise. The commercial aura surrounding the band in 1987 was still very potent. They weren't just considered a hot touring commodity. They were still considered a powerhouse in the record stores.

The reason for my original comment was to disagree with what seemed a widespread view here that, if all five were to record, it would be a huge commercial splash. I just don't think it would be. That's why I said, somewhat facetiously, that the world wasn't exactly waiting for Christine McVie to rejoin the Fleetwood Mac fold.

I find myself thinking about why "The Dance" hit so big. It was good stuff, to be sure, but it wasn't the Fleetwood Mac Hour, the way it was for "Rumours." So what explains it? The Eagles project a few years earlier on MTV may have paved the way, greased expectations. I also think something else was in the air: Fleetwood Mac's catalog was newly undergoing its renaissance, with Billy Corgan & Courtney Love & some other hot rockers talking about the band in very respectful terms. Also, Stevie Nicks herself hadn't been saturating the market. She hadn't toured in 1997, 1996, or 1995, & her tour in 1994 was short & ill-attended. The aura of rejuvenation was in the air, swirling all about the band. Even the talk about the drugs & the in-fighting (remember the cover of Rolling Stone?) was pretty new in 1997. Nowadays, of course, we can't pick up a newspaper or a magazine article without reading the same crap about the drugs. But back then, it was new -- or at least a lot newer. (Mick broke a lot of the awareness of the drug use in 1990.)

These days, it's different. The band has already had its classic American lineup renaissance. It's already done its new studio album. It's already had its big world tours. Stevie Nicks has been on the road every year, & everybody knows what she looks like from TV--she's everywhere. There's no more sense of today's rockers rediscovering Fleetwood Mac. They've been rediscovered already, & even their musician supporters have moved on, as you would expect them to.

People just aren't pumped for another Fleetwood Mac explosion anymore. Even the inevitable marketing for a fireflies lineup project won't generate that kind of gaga.

[cbBen]

Lindsey can work like a dog for two years but will never be able to do what Stevie can vocally. In five seconds, her vocal contribution to Little Lies made the song as much as the hours and hours and hours Lindsey slaved away in the studio crafting it. He has to do more work to make up for what she can do in less time. She contributes her fair share to the band, even if Lindsey works ten times harder. Mind you, I am a huge fan of each of them, and respect each of their talents tremendously.

But Stevie is the star power -- not just in the public eye but also talent-wise, and Lindsey seems to turn a blind eye to this fact.

She's the better singer and--in the grand scheme of things--the better writer. What's The World Coming To is exactly what is wrong with Lindsey as a writer. The lone sane voice crying in the wilderness, the victim of what the world has become.

Everyone has not gone to the moon, and even if they have there's got to be a better way to say it. Stevie singing on that song--and on that line in particular--is more of a favor and a concession to Lindsey than people may realize.

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by David

I find myself thinking about why "The Dance" hit so big. It was good stuff, to be sure, but it wasn't the Fleetwood Mac Hour, the way it was for "Rumours." So what explains it? The Eagles project a few years earlier on MTV may have paved the way, greased expectations.

I think it was a success because it brought Fleetwood Mac to a venue where people who had never heard of them before would be watching (MTV). That's evident in the amount of posters here who have said that The Dance was the first place that they ever heard FM.
It would help FM sales if Christine was on board, but not many bands are selling huge numbers, anyway. The thing that would help this band the most is everyone putting their egos away, getting rid of the power struggles, and approaching a new album as a true band. No more Stevie setting out of the studio for months while Lindsey, John, and Mick work. No one coming in with songs already written.
I also think they should have more interaction with the fans they already have. They need to be on their fan sites telling people about their plans. Maybe even to the point of asking fans their opinions. We've listened to them for many years and could help them figure out what songs will work and what won't.

[McTrouble]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

I think it was a success because it brought Fleetwood Mac to a venue where people who had never heard of them before would be watching (MTV). That's evident in the amount of posters here who have said that The Dance was the first place that they ever heard FM.
It would help FM sales if Christine was on board, but not many bands are selling huge numbers, anyway. The thing that would help this band the most is everyone putting their egos away, getting rid of the power struggles, and approaching a new album as a true band. No more Stevie setting out of the studio for months while Lindsey, John, and Mick work. No one coming in with songs already written.
I also think they should have more interaction with the fans they already have. They need to be on their fan sites telling people about their plans. Maybe even to the point of asking fans their opinions. We've listened to them for many years and could help them figure out what songs will work and what won't.

That would show that they cared about their fans and what they are hoping for

[David]

Originally Posted by cbBen

Lindsey can work like a dog for two years but will never be able to do what Stevie can vocally. In five seconds, her vocal contribution to Little Lies made the song as much as the hours and hours and hours Lindsey slaved away in the studio crafting it.

We'll have to agree to disagree -- wildly disagree about these very subjective views. I'm trying to even remember Stevie's vocal on "Little Lies." I'm coming up blank.

She contributes her fair share to the band, even if Lindsey works ten times harder.

Let's take the "Tango" album as an example. Throw out her particular contributions & what have you got? An album that by & large sounds exactly like the album we already have. Now throw out his contributions & what have you got? Goodbye guitar work, goodbye sparkling & inventive track orchestration (praised by just about every major critic in 1987), goodbye engineering breakthroughs, goodbye vocals, goodbye, goodbye. I rest my case.

But Stevie is the star power -- not just in the public eye but also talent-wise, and Lindsey seems to turn a blind eye to this fact.

She's the better singer and--in the grand scheme of things--the better writer. What's The World Coming To is exactly what is wrong with Lindsey as a writer. The lone sane voice crying in the wilderness, the victim of what the world has become.

Good heavens. The words to "What's the World Coming To" are fantastic -- probably Lindsey's best lyrics ever. They're wry, waggish, self-aware, punning -- just about everything that made Warren Zevon such a good lyricist. "World" is Lindsey's most Zevonesque lyric.

My views on Stevie's lyric-writing are well known & widely spread here. No need for me to repeat.

I am enjoying our conversation, all the same.

[cbBen]

Me too -- a great deal.

Listen, I partially agree with you about Tango [just brilliant, brilliant production], but to remind you it's Christine singing "Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies" followed by Stevie coming in with "Tell me lies" before Lindsey comes in with "Tell me, tell me lies." Stevie's voice is sharp and just makes the whole thing work. It's brilliant. And while Big Love became a great solo acoustic vehicle for Lindsey, Seven Wonders is the best thing on the album, besides Little Lies. I don't care that Stevie worked for ten days and Lindsey worked for 400 days. It's the effect that interests me, not the cause. I think her contributions to Little Lies and Seven Wonders are vital to the album and some of its biggest selling points, and she was at a creative low point mind you. You think The Dance would have been successful without Stevie? No way. And Lindsey probably worked ten times harder on it. Again it's the effect that matters, not the cause.

As for What's The World Coming to, is he saying that the long highway is the only way, or is he saying that the lone highway is the only way?

If the latter, then what on earth is a song that says "the lone highway is the only way" doing on a group album? And kicking off the album no less? If the lone highway is the only way what is Lindsey doing in the band? If it's the long highway, then it still sounds like a sentiment for a solo work. When one has a long hard road to hoe, one typically must do so alone [I'm speaking from a literary point of view here]. Anyway the song seems very individual for a group album.

And moreover the song is terribly self-pitying. Lindsey seems to think he is the last one on earth with any personal and artistic integrity. What's that term Alicia Silverstone's character uses in the film Clueless? Complaint rock?

Zevon had a much wryer sense of humor and a much more self-deprecating manner.

I can appreciate lines such as "There's no truth in my life/There's no light in my eyes/And it's all I guess/That I'll ever miss," but the song seems to indicate otherwise -- that there is truth and light in Lindsey's life, just that he has to fight to preserve it. Welcome to the club, my friend.

And lines such as "I don't take what they want/I don't do what they say/So I'm on their list/So I'm gone I guess" are the heart of the beast. So many times he complains about "they": What *they* say isn't true, *they'll* just turn me down, *[they'll]* turn me inside out, I don't take what *they* want, I don't do what *they* say. It's akin to the "faceless corporate record industry" -- a non-specific enemy that lives in Lindsey's mind.

Just who are "they" and what right does Lindsey think he has to be in their good graces in the first place?

[Villavic]

When I saw Fleetwood Mac in 2009 at an almost sold out arena, I confirmed they didn't reach their end. As long as tours are successful, they are alive. Records are another story, they will never have a n.1 album I guess, but tours are a way to keep one band alive.