The Other Side Of The Mirror - A Re-Evaluation?

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

It went platinum after the Dance, just like Street Angel went Gold and Timespace went Platinum. That was all about The Dance. It wouldn't of happened without the Dance. And Stevie, not going Platinum in 1989 was a lot more devasting than not reaching Gold status with Street Angel. She just came off Tango. The album charted higher than RAL because 1985 and 86 was a lot more competive than 1989 and she came off of Tango. She should of managed to go platinum. Bad word of mouth and no singles killed it. RS suddenly gives Stevie one more good rating (TISL) AFTER THE DANCE. After Sheryl Crow, Coutney Love come out in her defense... Oh and by the way critic darling Sheryl Crown and John Shanks are producing the album. Bah.

Yeah, I have re-evaluated TOSOTM and it still sucks.

I have to debate how you're interpreting this though Jondalar. How do we know that TOSOTM, SA and TS weren't simply certified at that time? As you know, albums are only certified when a record company pays for them to be certified. They may have passed their respective sales plateaus prior to this and all just got certified post-Dance due to that's when Modern Records decided to certify them (and it was prior to Enchanted, so it could have been some pre-pub for that box set).

I don't have any proof of this. I'm only suggesting it as a possibility because if The Dance did spike Nicks sales then why weren't her better selling catalog albums Bella Donna and The Wild Heart also further certified after The Dance? Why would it have been her less well-known albums that got the sales spike? There was nothing to gravitate people towards those albums in particular.

I agree with you that TOSOTM sold slower than her previous 3 albums had. Actually every Nicks album sold slower than its predecessor until TISL. I also agree that TOSOTM only had 1 hit, but then again this was part of a general trend as well: BD had 2 top 10s, 1 top 20 and 1 top 40, TWH had 1 top 10, 1 top 20, and 1 top 40, RAL had 1 top 10 and 1 top 20, TOSOTM had 1 top 20, and SA didn't have any top 40 at all. Each album declined in album sales and each album sold less than the one before it.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by tabruns

I have to debate how you're interpreting this though Jondalar. How do we know that TOSOTM, SA and TS weren't simply certified at that time? As you know, albums are only certified when a record company pays for them to be certified. They may have passed their respective sales plateaus prior to this and all just got certified post-Dance due to that's when Modern Records decided to certify them (and it was prior to Enchanted, so it could have been some pre-pub for that box set).

I don't have any proof of this. I'm only suggesting it as a possibility because if The Dance did spike Nicks sales then why weren't her better selling catalog albums Bella Donna and The Wild Heart also further certified after The Dance? Why would it have been her less well-known albums that got the sales spike? There was nothing to gravitate people towards those albums in particular.

I agree with you that TOSOTM sold slower than her previous 3 albums had. Actually every Nicks album sold slower than its predecessor until TISL. I also agree that TOSOTM only had 1 hit, but then again this was part of a general trend as well: BD had 2 top 10s, 1 top 20 and 1 top 40, TWH had 1 top 10, 1 top 20, and 1 top 40, RAL had 1 top 10 and 1 top 20, TOSOTM had 1 top 20, and SA didn't have any top 40 at all. Each album declined in album sales and each album sold less than the one before it.

I just posted charts for you, and I don't know how I can make it any clearer. SA never even sold 500,000. Retailers bought it after the Dance which made it go gold in the hopes they would sale. Retailers trying to capitalize on The Dance really helped. The Wild Heart had just went double platinum in 1993 and it wasn't close enough to selling another million copies. Her album sold fewer copies becuase they were of less quality and yes, they had fewer hits. That's her fault.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I just posted charts for you, and I don't know how I can make it any clearer. SA never even sold 500,000. Retailers bought it after the Dance which made it go gold in the hopes they would sale. Retailers trying to capitalize on The Dance really helped. The Wild Heart had just went double platinum in 1993 and it wasn't close enough to selling another million copies. Her album sold fewer copies becuase they were of less quality and yes, they had fewer hits. That's her fault.

Jondalar, you're just not going to be happy until we all say "yes TOSOTM sucks" and we're just not going to do that.

Its also potentially just the way a career goes. People get tired of you, you fade. And Nicks was in the public consciousness a LOT due to doing both Mac and her solo career.

I'm not arguing that all Nicks albums are equal quality. I don't think they are. But I also don't agree with your take on them. That's why this is a difference of opinion.

From my perspective Nicks had a great first album in Bella Donna, then three good albums that each had their own strengths and weaknesses and for me TOSOTM was better than TWH and RAL. Some people rave about TWH and others rave about RAL. It seems like the TWH-RAL-TOSOTM trio all have their passionate defenders.

I don't see TOSOTM as the career killer because her album sales were declining at the same rate prior to it. It's not like she was doing Platinum/Platinum/Platinum oops all of a sudden Gold. As her record exec said "Every album sold about half of the one before it." That to me indicates a fan base that's slowly moving away, not a fan base that all instantly turned on her all because of TOSOTM.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by tabruns

Jondalar, you're just not going to be happy until we all say "yes TOSOTM sucks" and we're just not going to do that.

Its also potentially just the way a career goes. People get tired of you, you fade. And Nicks was in the public consciousness a LOT due to doing both Mac and her solo career.

I'm not arguing that all Nicks albums are equal quality. I don't think they are. But I also don't agree with your take on them. That's why this is a difference of opinion.

From my perspective Nicks had a great first album in Bella Donna, then three good albums that each had their own strengths and weaknesses and for me TOSOTM was better than TWH and RAL. Some people rave about TWH and others rave about RAL. It seems like the TWH-RAL-TOSOTM trio all have their passionate defenders.

I don't see TOSOTM as the career killer because her album sales were declining at the same rate prior to it. It's not like she was doing Platinum/Platinum/Platinum oops all of a sudden Gold. As her record exec said "Every album sold about half of the one before it." That to me indicates a fan base that's slowly moving away, not a fan base that all instantly turned on her all because of TOSOTM.

Bella Donna was a classic and she won respect from people who did not want to like her. The Wild Heart had a huge hit with Stand Back and was pretty good also there was Mirage. However, she lost fans over it. RAL was a stinker, but she still had enough of a fanbase to get retailers to get it to platinum immediately. She needed a comeback in 1989. RAL left quite an impression with the record buying public. The Other Side of the Mirror made an even worse one, except it did give her one hit overseas. Wasn't the record buying public fault back then. It was the quality of her records. People want quality. Not self-indulgent lyrics, and bad production. She ruined the relationships to pull off good records and would not listen to the people who were trying to help her. After the Dance, people were clamoring to work with her. I could not believe in 2001 that TISL was all we got, but it was a big step up from SA.

As far as me bashing TOSOTM and some other albums, those people who bash this album or Bella Donna don't hesistate, so I'm not either.

[saintvox]

I love TOSTOTM, I'm surprised so many people dislike it.

For me, I started to like it when I went through a really crazy time, and the lyrics really started to make sense to me. Especially Alice. That song is really epic. So many people dislike the production but I don't have a problem with it, I think it's just fine.

To me, it's one of her better solo albums. I dislike Rock A Little because it just doesn't reverberate for me, and Bella Donna is only average in my eyes. So I guess it's to each his own.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Bella Donna was a classic and she won respect from people who did not want to like her. The Wild Heart had a huge hit with Stand Back and was pretty good also there was Mirage. However, she lost fans over it. RAL was a stinker, but she still had enough of a fanbase to get retailers to get it to platinum immediately. She needed a comeback in 1989. RAL left quite an impression with the record buying public. The Other Side of the Mirror made an even worse one, except it did give her one hit overseas. Wasn't the record buying public fault back then. It was the quality of her records. People want quality. Not self-indulgent lyrics, and bad production. She ruined the relationships to pull off good records and would not listen to the people who were trying to help her. After the Dance, people were clamoring to work with her. I could not believe in 2001 that TISL was all we got, but it was a big step up from SA.

As far as me bashing TOSOTM and some other albums, those people who bash this album or Bella Donna don't hesistate, so I'm not either.

But again, you're equating "people" with YOU. You just can't seem to bring yourself to say that this is your take on her albums. You seem to want to have to prove that you're "right", when I really don't think you have to. You seriously dislike RAL and TOSOTM (and SA and TISL) but that's fine. It's your taste. Not everyone has to agree with you.

Like when you say "self indulgent lyrics" *I* immediately think of TWH's "Gate and Garden" and RAL's "The Nightmare" (and I *really* think of "Welcome to the room....Sara" but don't get me started). I don't think of TOSOTM.

As far as production goes, clearly this is a question of taste. Some people really dislike RAL and TOSOTM because of the slicker production but many others love those albums either in spite of or because of that production.

I'm not saying its the "fault" of fans that her records were selling less. I'm saying that that's just natural: people get tired of you and they move on, especially when you have success at a level that Nicks has had. People were slowly moving away from Nicks probably due somewhat to familiarity breeding contempt, probably somewhat due to that TWH, RAL and TOSOTM were all not up to BD standards, and probably somewhat due to her increasingly obvious drug addiction which was showing up during RAL and TOSOTM in her interviews and concerts.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by saintvox

I love TOSTOTM, I'm surprised so many people dislike it.

For me, I started to like it when I went through a really crazy time, and the lyrics really started to make sense to me. Especially Alice. That song is really epic. So many people dislike the production but I don't have a problem with it, I think it's just fine.

To me, it's one of her better solo albums. I dislike Rock A Little because it just doesn't reverberate for me, and Bella Donna is only average in my eyes. So I guess it's to each his own.

Well my take on TOSOTM is very similar to yours, saintvox. I actually thought it was an improvement over TWH and RAL. I thought the songs were very dark and very reflective of her coming off her cocaine addiction. Certainly "long nets of white cloud my memory" refers to that, as does "Alice" and "Doing the Best that I Can". There's a real black magic vibe to the album that I just really love.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by tabruns

But again, you're equating "people" with YOU. You just can't seem to bring yourself to say that this is your take on her albums. You seem to want to have to prove that you're "right", when I really don't think you have to. You seriously dislike RAL and TOSOTM (and SA and TISL) but that's fine. It's your taste. Not everyone has to agree with you.

Like when you say "self indulgent lyrics" *I* immediately think of TWH's "Gate and Garden" and RAL's "The Nightmare" (and I *really* think of "Welcome to the room....Sara" but don't get me started). I don't think of TOSOTM.

As far as production goes, clearly this is a question of taste. Some people really dislike RAL and TOSOTM because of the slicker production but many others love those albums either in spite of or because of that production.

I'm not saying its the "fault" of fans that her records were selling less. I'm saying that that's just natural: people get tired of you and they move on, especially when you have success at a level that Nicks has had. People were slowly moving away from Nicks probably due somewhat to familiarity breeding contempt, probably somewhat due to that TWH, RAL and TOSOTM were all not up to BD standards, and probably somewhat due to her increasingly obvious drug addiction which was showing up during RAL and TOSOTM in her interviews and concerts.

She was a drug addict and it definitely came across. The quality of her music declined almost like the titanic. I mean RAL was a meltdown. You can listen to that record and it just reaks of cocaine. TOSOTM sounds like she stepped off the planet into another dimension full of synthesizers and little girl journal entries. After RAL and TOSOTM everyone said Stevie Nicks is only as good as the people she works with. They said that before, but she gave them the real ammo with those albums. Her songs got tinier and her voice, whether from cigarettes, or lack of trying just reaked.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

She was a drug addict and it definitely came across. The quality of her music declined almost like the titanic. I mean RAL was a meltdown. You can listen to that record and it just reaks of cocaine. TOSOTM sounds like she stepped off the planet into another dimension full of synthesizers and little girl journal entries. After RAL and TOSOTM everyone said Stevie Nicks is only as good as the people she works with. They said that before, but she gave them the real ammo with those albums. Her songs got tinier and her voice, whether from cigarettes, or lack of trying just reaked.

So what if RAL wreaks of coke? Stevie is still here today and has outlived that chapter in her life. I actually enjoy that record for the most part. You don't like RAL, that's fine... you don't like Other Side of the Mirror... that's also fine. But they are not throwaway records. Each one of her records has little gems that are begging to be rediscovered amidst all the 'crap' that surrounds it.

People said Stevie is only good as the people she works with? Sorry but I don't agree with that. Celine Dion is someone who's only as good as the people she works with.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I mean RAL was a meltdown. You can listen to that record and it just reaks of cocaine. TOSOTM sounds like she stepped off the planet into another dimension full of synthesizers and little girl journal entries.

Okay I LOL'd at that. I still love TOSOTM though.

I think the reason why I like TOSOTM and parts of RAL and TWH is that she's still creative on those albums. It's only SA where I felt like her creativity was largely absent.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

So what if RAL wreaks of coke? Stevie is still here today and has outlived that chapter in her life. I actually enjoy that record for the most part. You don't like RAL, that's fine... you don't like Other Side of the Mirror... that's also fine. But they are not throwaway records. Each one of her records has little gems that are begging to be rediscovered amidst all the 'crap' that surrounds it.

People said Stevie is only good as the people she works with? Sorry but I don't agree with that. Celine Dion is someone who's only as good as the people she works with.

No, you could combine RAL, OSOTM, SA and TISL into a pretty good record. There are treasures on each.

Celine wasn't trying to be a series songwriter. Stevie has always been held to a higher standard. Look at some of the negative reviews for IYD. Not quite fair.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Celine wasn't trying to be a series songwriter. Stevie has always been held to a higher standard. Look at some of the negative reviews for IYD. Not quite fair.

People are always going to say good things and bad things. Their "professional reviews" will always be skewed by their opinions. A lot of people don't like Stevie, and a lot of people do. That's just how it is. It's like movie critics... they ruin a lot of the movie magic experience for me, so I try not to read or listen to them. The same with album reviews. I listen and decide for myself.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

People are always going to say good things and bad things. Their "professional reviews" will always be skewed by their opinions. A lot of people don't like Stevie, and a lot of people do. That's just how it is. It's like movie critics... they ruin a lot of the movie magic experience for me, so I try not to read or listen to them. The same with album reviews. I listen and decide for myself.

Critical reviews can be instructive if they're fairly written and by someone who isn't either a slavish fan or a hater. That's the issue.

Someone who just dislikes Nicks isn't going to give her album a fair hearing. The negative reviews that I've seen of IYD (and I've only seen two) both come across like nothing she does would make the reviewer happy, so that automatically makes the review worthless. A review that will never like what she does because its HER isn't going to be appeased no matter what. What I want is a review that intelligently considers the work on its own and within the context of what the artist is capable of.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by tabruns

The negative reviews that I've seen of IYD (and I've only seen two) both come across like nothing she does would make the reviewer happy, so that automatically makes the review worthless.

Exactly! There are people that will never like her and that's the end of it for them.

[TheWILDheart]

Alright, fine, I'll say it.

Jondalar, shut up. You're going to have to accept that some of us love RAL, OSOTM and SA. Your opinion is not fact and low sales do not make any of us love an albm any less. You're clogging up the board by stating your opinion as fact and shoving it peoples faces. Just accept the fact that not everyone feels the same way you do.

Sorry to be so blunt folks, but its just ignorant, rude and I have no patience for this kind of attitude.

Lets not forget, Stevie has always said OSOTM is one of her favourites!