Smile At You... philosophical question

[CreepingDeath]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I think the people who are stuck on the demos are nuts. The demos were angry and rock but they went nowhere. They just meandered. Lindsey turned that song into a gem. He wrapped it up into the pop song Stevie wanted. It's her best vocal on that album, too. He is a genious.

There's no doubt about that. I've been waiting for the men in the white coats to haul me off for years.

[mitzo]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I think the people who are stuck on the demos are nuts. The demos were angry and rock but they went nowhere. They just meandered. Lindsey turned that song into a gem. He wrapped it up into the pop song Stevie wanted. It's her best vocal on that album, too. He is a genious.

Agreed that it is genius, and a "sonic wonderland" as someone else said here. I have been addicted to this song on SYW for about 8 years. In my top Stevie songs ever.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I think the people who are stuck on the demos are nuts. The demos were angry and rock but they went nowhere. They just meandered. Lindsey turned that song into a gem. He wrapped it up into the pop song Stevie wanted. It's her best vocal on that album, too. He is a genious.

What makes that demo a demo? It features all the instrumentalists in Fleetwood Mac (at the time) playing at white-hot heat.

Lindsey also probably shaped the 1981 recording. But you happen to think his vision on that one was "meandering" & "went nowhere."

It isn't that x number of fans are "stuck on the demos" per se. It's that we prefer what Fleetwood Mac did with the song in 1981 to what was done with the song in 2002/3.

[skuncles]

Originally Posted by David

What makes that demo a demo? It features all the instrumentalists in Fleetwood Mac (at the time) playing at white-hot heat.

Lindsey also probably shaped the 1981 recording. But you happen to think his vision on that one was "meandering" & "went nowhere."

It isn't that x number of fans are "stuck on the demos" per se. It's that we prefer what Fleetwood Mac did with the song in 1981 to what was done with the song in 2002/3.

Lindsey probably did have something to do with the earlier recording. It was originally intended for "Mirage". Stevie said in an interview prior to the albums release that she had three songs on there. She alluded to the fact that one of them was a very angry song that Lindsey said didn't fit the rest of the album, so she had to change it. In it's place we got "Straight Back".

[mikebise]

No allusions, Stevie flat out SAID "Smile At You" was the angry song that would probably get axed and replaced (Bay Area Music, September 1981). The other two songs of hers recorded in France for Mirage were "If You Were My Love" and "That's Alright", per Stevie.

All three Stevie sings along to on her Rolling Stone cover shoot video. Why do people call these "demos"?

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by mikebise

No allusions, Stevie flat out SAID "Smile At You" was the angry song that would probably get axed and replaced (Bay Area Music, September 1981). The other two songs of hers recorded in France for Mirage were "If You Were My Love" and "That's Alright", per Stevie.

All three Stevie sings along to on her Rolling Stone cover shoot video. Why do people call these "demos"?

To my untrained ears, "If You Were My Love" and "Smile at You" stop just short of being final studio tracks. They are probably considered demos because they have not been mixed and mastered, even though the raw material is there for a final studio recording. By contrast, I consider "Joan of Arc" to be a truly unreleased studio track; it's definitely not merely a demo.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

By contrast, I consider "Joan of Arc" to be a truly unreleased studio track; it's definitely not merely a demo.

Now, *that's* a hell of a song that should've seen the light of day. It wasn't even released as a B-side, as far as I know.

I'm a little surprised to hear that the "angry" Smile at You was basically a finished track for Mirage. I absolutely prefer the SYW version to that.

[starshine]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

To my untrained ears, "If You Were My Love" and "Smile at You" stop just short of being final studio tracks. They are probably considered demos because they have not been mixed and mastered, even though the raw material is there for a final studio recording. By contrast, I consider "Joan of Arc" to be a truly unreleased studio track; it's definitely not merely a demo.

I kinda agree with Mike. Not everything is a demo. Some are more finished tracks per say than just demos. I believe that IYWML and SAY from Mirage are both finished tracks. I love both of them. I think of a demo as not having much instrumentation and well just doesn't sound quite there really. Maybe those 2 songs above aren't totally polished but I don't think they are demos either. I think of them as 'outtakes' more than a demo of the song. Just like the version of ' If You Were My Love' from Street Angel. To me thats an outtake/full version cut from SA. Heck some songs that we think are demos could really be outtakes. Now one of my favorite songs 'City Of Hope' thats cut off to me thats a demo but who's to say I guess. I so wish we had a full version of that song or It Takes A Long Time. Maybe they are full songs but since they both are cut or fade its hard to tell so I call those demos. I guess theres really no wrong opinion on the subject. Its all good really.
Personally, I don't care for Joan Of Arc, too me that song is just too repetative to me. The words are boring and well sorry I guess thats one song I just can't get into. Its nice to have it as an unreleased track but it does make me wonder if theres better unreleased than that one?

[David]

I probably wasn't clear with my demo comment earlier. The 1981 Smile at You features all four members of Fleetwood Mac playing on it, which makes the "demo" label illogical. Nothing is being demo'd (other than perhaps in the loose sense of trying something out as a group to see whether it's effective). Ordinarily, Nicks or McVie records a demo in order to demo(nstrate) an idea for a song. The demo's audience is the rest of the band & its creative team.

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought Smile was tracked on the mixer. I don't think it was. It sounds like an everyone-playing-simultaneously session, which could mean any number of things.

I suggested the probability that Lindsey shaped the 1981 recording, but what I really meant was that Fleetwood Mac obviously shaped the performance. Their signature is all over it (pace Ken Caillat, who maintained that Mac never tracked it), which is why I don't view the 1981-vs.-2003-Smile debate as being one of Stevie Nicks vs. Fleetwood Mac. Both treatments are Fleetwood Mac treatments--the preference for one or the other comes down to which Fleetwood Mac treatment you prefer.

See my blog for clarification.

[daniellaaarisen]

Originally Posted by David

I probably wasn't clear with my demo comment earlier. The 1981 Smile at You features all four members of Fleetwood Mac playing on it, which makes the "demo" label illogical. Nothing is being demo'd (other than perhaps in the loose sense of trying something out as a group to see whether it's effective). Ordinarily, Nicks or McVie records a demo in order to demo(nstrate) an idea for a song. The demo's audience is the rest of the band & its creative team.

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought Smile was tracked on the mixer. I don't think it was. It sounds like an everyone-playing-simultaneously session, which could mean any number of things.

I suggested the probability that Lindsey shaped the 1981 recording, but what I really meant was that Fleetwood Mac obviously shaped the performance. Their signature is all over it (pace Ken Caillat, who maintained that Mac never tracked it), which is why I don't view the 1981-vs.-2003-Smile debate as being one of Stevie Nicks vs. Fleetwood Mac. Both treatments are Fleetwood Mac treatments--the preference for one or the other comes down to which Fleetwood Mac treatment you prefer.

See my blog for clarification.

Agreed 110%.

[markolas]

David, I think you're being nit-picky with the "it's not a demo" thing. In this community, at least, it seems that the word is being used as kind of a catch-all term. There are lots of unreleased songs that aren't really demos, that are referred to as such.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by markolas

David, I think you're being nit-picky with the "it's not a demo" thing. In this community, at least, it seems that the word is being used as kind of a catch-all term. There are lots of unreleased songs that aren't really demos, that are referred to as such.

Exactly, it's just splitting hairs. Demos, tracks with scratch vocals, rough mixes, unmastered, etc...still unreleased or tossed recordings.

[David]

Originally Posted by markolas

David, I think you're being nit-picky with the "it's not a demo" thing. In this community, at least, it seems that the word is being used as kind of a catch-all term. There are lots of unreleased songs that aren't really demos, that are referred to as such.

I agree that the word is used as a catch-all. I spent enough years amassing all this stuff to have concluded that.

But I bring it up here because I disagreed with the widespread view that Lindsey Buckingham or Fleetwood Mac was ruining (or improving) something that they previously had no part in. I'm only suggesting that the "demo" was a group production, too--a collection of sound & performance decisions, & not a raw artifact torn from Stevie's whatever, as the term "demo" implies.

I hate it on Say You Will, by the way! But it had to change somehow. The idea that the 2003 Fleetwood Mac was going to closely reproduce something they had done decades earlier is ludicrous. Maybe I'd have preferred a straight-ahead 4/4 beat on it, midtempo & guitar-driven. It's not a "dreamy" song, so why the filigree & the wispy, vaporous atmosphere, as if it were Sara?

Part of the job of a sound-shaper in pop music--& part of the immense talents that the Mac production team used to have--is to match the song's "internal" atmosphere with an "external" soundscape. It's an exercise in complementing. Think of how perfectly Fleetwood Mac did that with Rhiannon, with Go Your Own Way, with Think About Me, with Hold Me. Those guys used to excel at this sort of thing.

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by sorcerer999

Nowadays, I think of the demo and the SYW version as two different songs. It's easier for me to enjoy both of them that way.

Originally Posted by WildHearted

While it's not quite as furious as it was on the demos by any means, it still conveys the emotion convincingly enough for me to enjoy it.

These two posts sum up my position on Smile at You. I heard the album version first and was absolutely struck by it. There was plenty of anger and an eerie, vicious atmosphere to the lyrics and the music. It's just handled very differently to the demo. The album version feels claustrophobic and oppressive, while the demo lets out all that anger and ferocity.

Interesting post about the "rooms" in Stevie's songs, Michele -- I never copped on to that before. I'll have to go and listen more closely!

[Ghosty]

I liked Smile At You on SYW right from the start. I love the old demos too. But the new arrangement was like getting a whole new song. I thought it could have been almost like a new "The Chain" and become a Fleetwood Mac concert classic. It is deep and dark and intense. If Christine was still touring with them, I don't know why I feel that way, but if she was still with them and adding her vocals and piano, I could picture it done live and being a real good live song for them.

I still love the old demos too. But we have fairly decent quality versions of them to hear whenever we want. So I just don't get into wanting demos to come out on new cd's. Unless you have a favorite demo that has really bad sound quality, then I can understand. But if we have a decent sounding demo, I don't want it again on a new cd. I want new stuff. Call me crazy.

[you won't be the first, lol]

I just would love a whole new cd of all brand new stuff. I like seeing how they (FWM, and Stevie Nicks) evolve musically. I don't want "old Stevie" or 70's and 80's Stevie and FWM. I want 21st century Stevie.