The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread, but I think a lot of fans overlook the fact that Fleetwood Mac haven't been musically relevant for a very long time. In fact, the last time they were anything approaching dynamic, and produced music that didn't originate from the 70s and 80s, was for Time.

OMG. Okay, on a positive note, I agree with you that they have not been relevant since the 80s. But I have to totally disagree that Time was even remotely "dynamic," let alone "progressive." It was very middle-of-the-road, very generic and bland adult pop that would not have been out of place on a Wilson Phillips album.

After Rumours, the band's creativity disappeared.

Uh... wut? Seriously? Ever heard of Tusk? It is arguably the most musically progressive album ever produced by any artist. It really reset the bar for 70s arena rock albums and has an enduring legacy of bands inspired by the sound of this album - Wilco, Arcade Fire, Jayhawks, etc. And even lesser albums like Tango were novel (if not innovative) for their time. We all know how heavily this album continues to be sampled even to this day.

Whatever anyone thinks of Stevie and Christine, neither of them were ever musically progressive, not in the slightest. Lindsey was, and is, of course - but his creativity was hamstrung by being in Fleetwood Mac. Therein lies the popularity - people that are not musically adventurous like a band that isn't musically adventurous - it appeals to most people.

The beauty of a band like Fleetwood Mac is that, as a group of equal contributors, they force each other to bring out their best while weeding out their less desirable traits. This push/pull musical tension is what creates magic. We get the best of Lindsey without getting all of his tendency for self-indulgence. I don't think he is "hamstrung" as much as he is "refined" within the confines of FM.

For Behind the Mask, Lindsey was gone, and replaced by a couple of guys who were talented and musically very capable, but not terribly quirky or interesting. Therefore that album is the most tedious of all the band's output (imo)

Indeed, BTM was not their best album ever, but I would hardly call it "tedious." In fact, it is arguably one of their more diverse, interesting efforts. It's an olio of all sorts of morsels - pop, blues, rockabilly, folk, prog rock, etc. At the end of the day, you can't help but give them a B+ for effort considering that their primary creative voice had departed. Nobody contributed their best material to the album, but it seems that the voices of Christine and Stevie can make practically anything sparkle.

- at least Time was interesting. Then they went back and lived in the 70s for the next 15 years.

If you think BTM was "tedious," how on earth can you find Time "interesting?" There is nothing... nothing new, novel or fresh about Time. Don't get me wrong- I loved Christine's songs for the most part, but I do have to admit that the production/arrangements were pretty lackluster. Otherwise it's full of very bland California pop along with some soulless bluesy meanderings.

They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do.

I think the only album that was consciously moulded in homage of Rumours was Mirage. Otherwise, I have to disagree yet again. Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.

And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them.

Well, I guess you are saying, in a roundabout way, that Stevie is the sole reason why Fleetwood Mac is/was successful?

So Mac ceased to be a proper band, and these words "brand" and "franchise" rear their ugly heads.

I believe it was Lindsey who first posited the term "brand" around the time of The Dance. Say what you will about "branding," but it is definitely important. Look at what a nightmare it was when the fake Fleetwood Mac was touring the U.S. in the early 70s? And how would you feel if Benny and Bjorn reunited "ABBA" with new girl singers? It's one thing if they started a new band with a new name, but coopting the ABBA name would just be beyond the pale.

[MacShadowsBall]

In reading the replies here, it seems there are some who like Behind the Mask and hate Time, while others hate Behind the Mask and like Time. I guess I like them both equally, but with FM its hard to "hate" and/or "like" an album w/contributions from multiple writers/vocalists.

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded?

[Bubba Fleetwood]

After reading the posts here, I wanted to jump into the pool. I have a few things to bring up but I don't have time so let me just say briefly that, yeah, I'm really tired of Rumours too even through it will always hold a special place in my heart. I think Tusk is the great FWM album. I actually like BTM a great deal. I wish Rick and Billy had been allowed to do a couple more albums.

[TrueFaith77]

I wish the band (SLCMJ) had held it together after Rumours to take advantage of their success to make great music together for the rest of their lives.

But they didn't.

Since that didn't happen, I wish that the band (even if just SLMJ) had held it together after The Dance to make great music together for the rest of their lives.

But they didn't.

Since that didn't happen either, I wish that Mick (and John) had been able to be more liberated (even from within themselves) in doing Fleetwood Mac work without S&L, while always welcoming them back into the fold should they so choose.

But they weren't.

[Street_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded?

I'll always feel that the right thing was done by bringing in Billy and Rick. I wish that they, along with Bekka would have had a chance to make multiple albums with the band (in Billy's case more than two albums.)

Matt

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

OMG. Okay, on a positive note, I agree with you that they have not been relevant since the 80s. But I have to totally disagree that Time was even remotely "dynamic," let alone "progressive." It was very middle-of-the-road, very generic and bland adult pop that would not have been out of place on a Wilson Phillips album.

I didn't actually say that Time was progressive, but I'm not talking about progression in terms of music in general - the changes were progressive in terms of the band's direction. I would say that the blandest songs on there are Christine's anyway.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Uh... wut? Seriously? Ever heard of Tusk? It is arguably the most musically progressive album ever produced by any artist. It really reset the bar for 70s arena rock albums and has an enduring legacy of bands inspired by the sound of this album - Wilco, Arcade Fire, Jayhawks, etc. And even lesser albums like Tango were novel (if not innovative) for their time. We all know how heavily this album continues to be sampled even to this day.

If you think Tusk was the most musically progressive album ever produced by anyone, then your record collection must be tiny. OK, I'll qualify my statement - of course it was a radical departure from Rumours, but only Lindsey was particularly creative on that album, and he was never really allowed to do it again Even then, a lot of his songs on there are pretty similar, and after a while, that stuff was too outré for Fleetwood Mac. Stevie and Chris weren't doing anything progressive on there. That's not to say it's not good - it is. But the creativity was limited to one member, and it did not resurface to any great degree on future albums. Certain aspects (Lindsey) of Tango in the Night were innovative, but the end product was safe. In the UK at least, Mac were already old hat. I was 14 at the time, and it was popular with people my parents' age.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

The beauty of a band like Fleetwood Mac is that, as a group of equal contributors, they force each other to bring out their best while weeding out their less desirable traits. This push/pull musical tension is what creates magic. We get the best of Lindsey without getting all of his tendency for self-indulgence. I don't think he is "hamstrung" as much as he is "refined" within the confines of FM.

True, but what that also does is weed out any tendency towards risk-taking, which is where a band's musical development comes from. Take no risks, you stand still, which is what they've done for years.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Indeed, BTM was not their best album ever, but I would hardly call it "tedious." In fact, it is arguably one of their more diverse, interesting efforts. It's an olio of all sorts of morsels - pop, blues, rockabilly, folk, prog rock, etc. At the end of the day, you can't help but give them a B+ for effort considering that their primary creative voice had departed. Nobody contributed their best material to the album, but it seems that the voices of Christine and Stevie can make practically anything sparkle.

I do think it's tedious. There are various genres on there, but we're dipping our toes into all of them, without really exploring any of them. It's blues lite, rockabilly lite, folk lite, and no prog rock at all. It was the result of using new members without really letting rip. Stevie was atrocious on parts of that album, which didn't help.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

If you think BTM was "tedious," how on earth can you find Time "interesting?" There is nothing... nothing new, novel or fresh about Time. Don't get me wrong- I loved Christine's songs for the most part, but I do have to admit that the production/arrangements were pretty lackluster. Otherwise it's full of very bland California pop along with some soulless bluesy meanderings.

Well, there's no accounting for taste - Behind the Mask was lacklustre and in parts, really formulaic. "Stand on the Rock", anyone? Why Rick's better songs weren't used is a mystery. Yes, Time was interesting, starting with Bekka. Dave Mason's songs were ordinary but decent enough, and Christine's were fairly bland, but Bekka and Billy provided some really decent stuff. Even Mick got an outing for one of his weird pieces, something which had previously been restricted to B-sides ("Lizard People") or not tried at all. And there's no blues on Time.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I think the only album that was consciously moulded in homage of Rumours was Mirage. Otherwise, I have to disagree yet again. Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.

Maybe you're listening to a different Say You Will to the one I have. I'd agree that Lindsey ran that show, and it's decent. Otherwise I'd say it was an exercise in making a Mac album that sounded half like a Lindsey solo album, and half like a Stevie outtake album. Still a good album though, don't get me wrong. I'd also agree that very few of those songs would have been comfortable on Rumours, but then 24 years will do that to a band. Why no album since then, by the way? Because there are no new ideas.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well, I guess you are saying, in a roundabout way, that Stevie is the sole reason why Fleetwood Mac is/was successful?

No. I'd say she provided the style, while Lindsey provided the substance. Chris did a little of both. I fully believe that without Fleetwood Mac, Stevie would not have had much of a career.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I believe it was Lindsey who first posited the term "brand" around the time of The Dance. Say what you will about "branding," but it is definitely important. Look at what a nightmare it was when the fake Fleetwood Mac was touring the U.S. in the early 70s? And how would you feel if Benny and Bjorn reunited "ABBA" with new girl singers? It's one thing if they started a new band with a new name, but coopting the ABBA name would just be beyond the pale.

Then shame on him. The fake Mac was a different thing. There's worrying about a band stealing your name, and then there's worrying about protecting a brand at the expense of musical integrity. Again, ABBA were a different thing - they'd never had different members for a start, whereas Stevie and Lindsey were latecomers. That's what a lot of people don't get - Fleetwood Mac had always been a revolving door of members. If Peter Green could be replaced, then so could Stevie and Lindsey. Musically, it was possible of course, but they followed the money instead. Nothing wrong in that, but denying it is pointless. All four of them are chasing the dollars, and the music is a poor second. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't pretend to think otherwise.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Seriously?

I meant AFTER Rumours. Finally, a reinvention.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

In reading the replies here, it seems there are some who like Behind the Mask and hate Time, while others hate Behind the Mask and like Time. I guess I like them both equally, but with FM its hard to "hate" and/or "like" an album w/contributions from multiple writers/vocalists.

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded?

I'm torn about whether they should have carried on after Lindsey left. On the one hand, I absolutely loved the Shake the Cage tour. On the other hand, the chemistry within the band was almost all gone. Yes, Billy and Rick are capable singers and guitarists. But they were terribly lacking in terms of gravitas. Sure, you could see and hear them on stage. But they were almost a distraction rather than someone you looked forward to seeing. I think it would have been one thing if they trotted out amazing songs or dazzled us with their showmanship and charisma. But their songs were middling, they were kind of dull to watch in concert and they, especially Rick, lacked charisma. They were club-sized personalities playing arenas.

I do believe they should have carried on. However, I think they should have carried on with someone who was a marquee name in his/her own right. Someone who was more of a singer/songwriter than an instrumentalist (and not necessarily a guitarist per se). Someone who could step up to the plate in terms of production and arrangement. Someone who could take Fleetwood Mac in another musical direction. Someone who can re-interpret Lindsey's songs in concert without sounding like karaoke. Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier? In any case, after the Shake the Cage tour they should have probably bid Billy and Rick adieu and then searched in earnest for a permanent replacement for Lindsey.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

...they were kind of dull to watch in concert and they, especially Rick, lacked charisma. They were club-sized personalities playing arenas.

After playing hundreds of shows with Bob Seger's Silver Bullet Band and Jackson Browne, both "arena" sized acts, there's no way Rick was a "club-sized personality" and no "charisma"? You're sadly mistaken.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I do believe they should have carried on. However, I think they should have carried on with someone who was a marquee name in his/her own right. Someone who was more of a singer/songwriter than an instrumentalist (and not necessarily a guitarist per se). Someone who could step up to the plate in terms of production and arrangement. Someone who could take Fleetwood Mac in another musical direction.

Hmmmm...how about Dave Mason?? Oh, yeah, that didn't work, either. Next bright idea??

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier?

Oh LORD NOOOOOOOOO! (on any of those three)...talk about your "bland" personalities! YIKES!!!!

{sarcasm} Hell, maybe they should've gotten Ritchie Blackmore & Candice Night to replace BOTH Lindsey & Stevie?? {/sarcasm}


Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

[OutsideTheRain]

To me from a business standpoint....they should have done one of two things
Got someone like Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Bonnie Raitt, Santana or brought back Bob Welch (someone who had their own thing)
-OR-
They could have just incorporated Waddy Wachtel and joined the Stevie Nicks solo show into Fleetwood Mac. If she did her solo songs in that lineup, along with Christine's contributions, you wouldn't have needed another singer/writer.

I do think having to two guitarists post '87 was a mistake. Both incredibly talented guitarists, but you needed a writer/producer to replace Lindsey not just a guitar player.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Someone who can re-interpret Lindsey's songs in concert without sounding like karaoke. Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier?

Hell!! Three of the dullest guys in rock. Instead of trying to find someone to re-interpret Lindsey's songs, they could just... write some new ones.

Originally Posted by OutsideTheRain

-OR-
They could have just incorporated Waddy Wachtel and joined the Stevie Nicks solo show into Fleetwood Mac. If she did her solo songs in that lineup, along with Christine's contributions, you wouldn't have needed another singer/writer.

Or just open a sugar factory and be done with it

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by OutsideTheRain

I do think having to two guitarists post '87 was a mistake. Both incredibly talented guitarists, but you needed a writer/producer to replace Lindsey not just a guitar player.

Billy was hired mainly as a singer, not so much as guitarist...Rick was brought in because he was a top-notch guitarist, that he could also write & sing was a plus.

No, it's not always a member of the band that makes a good producer; it just kind of happened that Lindsey worked (for the most part..but, sometimes that can be a detriment, too...Tusk?? Say You Will??)...they didn't have a member of the band as a producer prior to Rumours...and Ken Caillat & Richard Dashut shared producer credits with Lindsey after that.

[MacShadowsBall]

Originally Posted by chiliD

...Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

Exactly! I'm not a fan of Lindsey's songs anyway, so him gone didn't affect me liking Behind the Mask and Time.

As far as FM members, I'm more of a Christine / Stevie fan. Judging by the results of the battle of the songs so far, most Ledgies seem to agree. Lindsey's songs have yet to win an album battle. Christine and Stevie were the hit makers of the group, actually might be more Christine than Stevie.

"Group" meaning Rumours era...

Somebody wanna post the singles from the Rumours era and chart listings?

[MacShadowsBall]

Okay according to wikipedia, Christine had 9 Top 40 hits, Stevie had 5, and Lindsey had 3. Thats from the US charts - Rumours Era.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by chiliD

After playing hundreds of shows with Bob Seger's Silver Bullet Band and Jackson Browne, both "arena" sized acts, there's no way Rick was a "club-sized personality" and no "charisma"? You're sadly mistaken.

Um... playing in an arena to support an arena act does not automatically give you an arena-sized personality. Rick has supported Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks on their arena/shed tours. So what's your point? He's still as low-key and underwhelming as a live performer as ever.

Hmmmm...how about Dave Mason?? Oh, yeah, that didn't work, either. Next bright idea??

I didn't say "insert any has-been-over-the-hill-old-fart" as Lindsey's replacement. I think, perhaps with you as the sole exception, Dave Mason's appointment as a member of FM has been universally panned.

Oh LORD NOOOOOOOOO! (on any of those three)...talk about your "bland" personalities! YIKES!!!!

{sarcasm} Hell, maybe they should've gotten Ritchie Blackmore & Candice Night to replace BOTH Lindsey & Stevie?? {/sarcasm}

I was referring to singer/songwriters/guitarists who just happened to be somewhat available around the time Lindsey left the band. Yeah, we'd all love to see Eric Clapton and Paul McCartney in the band; and hey, what the hell... let's include George Harrison too. But we all know that's just too impossible to even speculate. I was talking about musicians who realistically could have fit with FM at the time- not necessarily the best in class. I personally love Trevor Rabin; he drastically refreshed the Yes sound while retaining the essence that made them who they are. He's a tremendous guitarist/singer/songwriter/producer, and his unique style is undeniable. I think it would be interesting to re-imagine Behind the Mask recorded in the style of Yes' Big Generator.

Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

Yes, it was the first FM studio album in eons not to crack the U.S. Top 10. Plus only one single charted in the U.S.- barely in the Top 40. The fact that it was such a bigger hit in the UK can be attributed directly to the overhang from Christine's Tango singles, which were mega-hits over there. The reality is that, despite Stevie's presence (her 1989 solo album quickly went Top 10 and gold), fans were balking at the presence of the new guys/lack of Lindsey. It was not a terrible album by any stretch. But it lacked the drama, the darkness, the passion of a Lindsey-helmed effort. The allure of the Rumours lineup has never been strictly about the music (for chrissakes, "Dreams" is a two-chord song!). It's always been about the unique voices/harmonies and personalities that created dramatic tension, and Lindsey was a huge part of that. It was the perfect chemical reaction. We've all heard various subsequent iterations with remnants of Rumours- Stevie and Chris, Chris, Stevie and Lindsey... but they never came close to the magic of the Rumours Five. To deny their compelling chemistry is pure delusion.