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[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

I think she inspires young women to be attention grabbers and to do Anything to get that attention!! It's great that she can play an instrument and she has good vocals, so so why didn't she just let herself get noticed for her talent?!

Well heaven forbid that a woman should grab any attention for herself! Shame on her for trying to succeed in a male-dominated business! Shame on her for speaking her mind! That hussy!

[bluefox4000]

It's one thing to grab attention....it's another to act like a jackass....which GaGa is.

Mick

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well heaven forbid that a woman should grab any attention for herself! Shame on her for trying to succeed in a male-dominated business! Shame on her for speaking her mind! That hussy!

Hmm, yet oddly enough Celine become one of the all-time greats and never did this...or Whitney or Dolly. This being extreme stunts and gimmicks, and bra and panties everywhere.

I think all this is coming from a music industry starved for talent. All of a sudden a girl with a decent singing voice comes along, who has an opinion on something, and she is the greatest thing since Michael. Also, male-dominated? Ha! The rap genre? Maybe. But every other genre? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Hmm, yet oddly enough Celine become one of the all-time greats and never did this...or Whitney or Dolly. This being extreme stunts and gimmicks, and bra and panties everywhere.

I think all this is coming from a music industry starved for talent. All of a sudden a girl with a decent singing voice comes along, who has an opinion on something, and she is the greatest thing since Michael. Also, male-dominated? Ha! The rap genre? Maybe. But every other genre? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Hmmm... riiiiight... Dolly is oh so understated and demure. That's what I love about Dolly- she's so subtle.

And I would hardly call Celine Dion or Whitney "all-time greats." Sure they are talented, but they are not artists. For their entire careers they have played into the whims of their (presumably) male agents/managers/husbands rather than defining themselves as individuals. And they certainly didn't write or compose any of their music. I think the term "puppet" comes to mind.

The truth of the matter is that many respectable female artists have had to sell their sexy images in order to become superstars. Stevie, Deborah Harry, Pat Benatar, Siouxsie, Kate Bush, Janet Jackson, etc. Even the Wilson sisters were nude on one of their covers. My feeling is that if you're young, pretty and talented, go for it. The world is full of plain Janes. Let the exceptional people have their time in the spotlight since youth and beauty are so fleeting.

[vivfox]

I've been around for a long time. Lady GaGa is suffering the same **** talk that Madonna had to deal with 25 years ago. And a quarter of a Century from now some other talented woman daring to be different will also be enduring the **** talk.

Honestly Ill never be able to figure out why GaGa bothers people so much.

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by vivfox

I've been around for a long time. Lady GaGa is suffering the same **** talk that Madonna had to deal with 25 years ago. And a quarter of a Century from now some other talented woman daring to be different will also be enduring the **** talk.

Honestly Ill never be able to figure out why GaGa bothers people so much.

She bothers me only marginally. Her fans however, annoy the f*ck out of me.

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well heaven forbid that a woman should grab any attention for herself! Shame on her for trying to succeed in a male-dominated business! Shame on her for speaking her mind! That hussy!

It's okay to want attention. It's not okay to do things ONLY for attention. I don't think a woman should have to disrobe to get noticed. In fact, isn't that playing into the wants of a 'male-dominated business'?? You mention that Stevie, Debbie Harry, and others have 'had to sell their sexy images to become superstars' but there's a huge difference between what they have done and what Lady GaGa is doing. She's making it very hard for people to take her talent seriously.

Also, as for Ann and Nancy being nude on the Dreamboat Annie cover and even Stevie being nude on the Buckingham Nicks album, there is nothing wrong with tastefully done and occasional nudity. They were not constantly showing off their bodies to the point where it became more about their looks than their talent.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

It's okay to want attention. It's not okay to do things ONLY for attention. I don't think a woman should have to disrobe to get noticed. In fact, isn't that playing into the wants of a 'male-dominated business'?? You mention that Stevie, Debbie Harry, and others have 'had to sell their sexy images to become superstars' but there's a huge difference between what they have done and what Lady GaGa is doing. She's making it very hard for people to take her talent seriously.

Also, as for Ann and Nancy being nude on the Dreamboat Annie cover and even Stevie being nude on the Buckingham Nicks album, there is nothing wrong with tastefully done and occasional nudity. They were not constantly showing off their bodies to the point where it became more about their looks than their talent.

But who's to say that Gaga's "nudity" (I'm not aware if she's gone fully in the buff in public) isn't tasteful? It's not like you're seeing more female anatomy than you would see on a woman at the beach or even a modern dancer. Yes, she is a dancer (or, at the very least, she's an entertainer who dances), so I don't think it would be appropriate for her to show up at her gigs wearing pleated wool skirts and cardigan sweaters; it's just not practical. A dancer needs to show the lines of her body when she performs so that invariably means she is going to wear very little or something very form-fitted.

As for "making it hard for people to take her talent seriously," do you really think Deborah Harry tarted up herself in Playboy centerfold drag so that people will take her seriously? She intentionally painted herself out to be the Betty-Boop-cum-Marilyn-Monroe airhead bimbo blonde stereotype; she was in on the joke and she was poking fun at the stereotype. But the world at large probably did not think so; they probably assumed she was being genuine rather than ironic. Oh, and I'm sure Stevie expected to be taken seriously by wearing curtain sheers on the cover of her debut solo album and singing songs about witches, doves and lace. If she wasn't accused of being a witch, the world at large thought she was a space case, especially compared to the much more straightforward, hard rocking Pat Benatar, who also happened to be much less interesting IMHO.

As for Gaga, like I have been saying all along, her music is nothing particularly special or interesting and I think she is smart enough to realize this. Nobody is going to take her music seriously at face value. So I think she made the right decision to sensationalize it and to present herself to the world as an over-the-top entertainer vs. a navel-gazing musician. If she presented herself as a piano-playing chick singer-songwriter like Regina Spektor or Vanessa Carlton or Fiona Apple, she would have no career. Good on her for doing what it takes.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

As for "making it hard for people to take her talent seriously," do you really think Deborah Harry tarted up herself in Playboy centerfold drag so that people will take her seriously? She intentionally painted herself out to be the Betty-Boop-cum-Marilyn-Monroe airhead bimbo blonde stereotype; she was in on the joke and she was poking fun at the stereotype. But the world at large probably did not think so; they probably assumed she was being genuine rather than ironic. Oh, and I'm sure Stevie expected to be taken seriously by wearing curtain sheers on the cover of her debut solo album and singing songs about witches, doves and lace. If she wasn't accused of being a witch, the world at large thought she was a space case, especially compared to the much more straightforward, hard rocking Pat Benatar, who also happened to be much less interesting IMHO.

yeah, if you read reviews from back in the day, it's pretty clear that stevie was not taken seriously. it's only in hindsight lo these many years later that she gets critical respect. it's revisionist history to say that stevie relied only on her musical chops and got mad respect for her musicianship. stevie has no musical chops, people! and she got no respect when bella donna came out! stevie had/has a nice voice that was/is at times quite beautiful, but she only knows approximately 5 chords and can't play a single instrument proficiently. so let's get real with the stevie comparisons.

has anyone in this thread who's questioning gaga's motives ever seen bowie perform? or elton? or annie lennox? on those grounds i reject the notion that music has to be performed in a staid, somber environment in order to be taken seriously. gaga is hardly the first musician to combine performance art with music. hell, was mozart an asshole because his operatic performers acted out their scenes instead of standing in front of the orchestra like they had sticks up their asses?

all this anti-sex pearl clutching is a bit much, really. art has always been about sex and it always will be.

it's silly to dislike gaga because she's "doing it for the attention" because all performers "do it for the attention." they are PERFORMERS. if you want to go from city to city and stand before thousands of people and sing/play/act, you are an attention whore. and since when does so-called "controversial" art need to be accompanied by a Very Important Social Message in order to be valid? art needs no excuses or apologies. if it makes you uncomfortable or pisses you off, there's probably something wrong with it, or something wrong with you, but it doesn't need to be mitigated by some power to the people BS to be valid. and anyway, as ed pointed out, gaga DOES do her fair share of Very Important Social Messages.

As for Gaga, like I have been saying all along, her music is nothing particularly special or interesting and I think she is smart enough to realize this. Nobody is going to take her music seriously at face value. So I think she made the right decision to sensationalize it and to present herself to the world as an over-the-top entertainer vs. a navel-gazing musician. If she presented herself as a piano-playing chick singer-songwriter like Regina Spektor or Vanessa Carlton or Fiona Apple, she would have no career. Good on her for doing what it takes.

i do take her music seriously. not all of it - half of the fame is musical flotsam, but just about everything on the fame monster is musically or lyrically solid or both. i think she is more talented than any of the ladies you mentioned, but you are right, if she had gone that route, she'd still be a nobody.

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

But who's to say that Gaga's "nudity" (I'm not aware if she's gone fully in the buff in public) isn't tasteful? It's not like you're seeing more female anatomy than you would see on a woman at the beach or even a modern dancer. Yes, she is a dancer (or, at the very least, she's an entertainer who dances), so I don't think it would be appropriate for her to show up at her gigs wearing pleated wool skirts and cardigan sweaters; it's just not practical. A dancer needs to show the lines of her body when she performs so that invariably means she is going to wear very little or something very form-fitted.

As for "making it hard for people to take her talent seriously," do you really think Deborah Harry tarted up herself in Playboy centerfold drag so that people will take her seriously? She intentionally painted herself out to be the Betty-Boop-cum-Marilyn-Monroe airhead bimbo blonde stereotype; she was in on the joke and she was poking fun at the stereotype. But the world at large probably did not think so; they probably assumed she was being genuine rather than ironic. Oh, and I'm sure Stevie expected to be taken seriously by wearing curtain sheers on the cover of her debut solo album and singing songs about witches, doves and lace. If she wasn't accused of being a witch, the world at large thought she was a space case, especially compared to the much more straightforward, hard rocking Pat Benatar, who also happened to be much less interesting IMHO.

As for Gaga, like I have been saying all along, her music is nothing particularly special or interesting and I think she is smart enough to realize this. Nobody is going to take her music seriously at face value. So I think she made the right decision to sensationalize it and to present herself to the world as an over-the-top entertainer vs. a navel-gazing musician. If she presented herself as a piano-playing chick singer-songwriter like Regina Spektor or Vanessa Carlton or Fiona Apple, she would have no career. Good on her for doing what it takes.

I'm not saying that nudity/skimpy dressing is never okay. I just think Lady GaGa takes it to the extreme by dressing that way so often. It overshadows her talent.
I always took Debbie Harry, Stevie, and Ann & Nancy Wilson's music very seriously, not so much their image, so maybe there's something wrong with me!

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Her fans however, annoy the f*ck out of me.

You have just articulated how I feel about Stevie fans!






-it's the truth, but hopefully this guy makes me seem to be kidding, although I'm not.

[tilthefirefades]

/sigh

Either way, I lose because I have let her and her fans get under my skin for a while now

I just really fail to see what is groundbreaking, and oh so awesome about her. Maybe it's just me

And Hejira-I was hardly saying Dolly is demure. I just meant that when she started, she wasn't kissing girls and wearing bra and panties 24/7. And I doubt there is an argument that Celine and Whitney aren't all time greats. If they aren't, then I have no idea who is. No, they aren't artists by today's standards.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

I just think Lady GaGa takes it to the extreme by dressing that way so often. It overshadows her talent.

Did you read the Rolling Stone article on her, about 3 issues ago? She said that she likes the fact that the press/public focus on her outfits and music, more than scrutinizing her personal life.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

And Hejira-I was hardly saying Dolly is demure. I just meant that when she started, she wasn't kissing girls and wearing bra and panties 24/7.

No, instead she had a couple of double-H-sized watermelons implanted into her chest. I am sure she did that as an extra protective layer in the event of a front-end collision. Not because she was trying to be sexy or anything...