President Obama's Ledgie Approval Rating- 2nd Edition

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

The fact that Obama actually spoke out against the **** show that's going on in Arizona right now. Let's see if he'll do the same thing in Oklahoma where a law was just passed allowing doctors to lie to women: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/us....html?emc=eta1

That article made me too angry. Obama had better say something pro-abortion quick smart to salvage what respect I have left for him!

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by jaycee

That article made me too angry. Obama had better say something pro-abortion quick smart to salvage what respect I have left for him!

For me, it doesn't even have to be "pro-abortion" (semantics, I know, but I don't think anyone is pro-abortion. I'm for a women's right to choose because studies have shown that the abortion rate does not significantly decrease when abortion is outlawed, however, the risk to the mother because of an improperly performed abortion increases), but it does need to be PRO-INFORMED CONSENT. The repercussions of what this law could mean for the medical profession terrify me.

[vermicious knid]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Things I like:

The bailout. I said it. Yes, those men got us into the crisis that was last year, but the bail out kept us from falling even farther.

Aren't you thinking of the stimulus? I think the bailout was under George W. Bush.

[LukeA]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Things I like:

The fact that Obama actually spoke out against the **** show that's going on in Arizona right now.

This.

Arizona can go f*ck themselves Its the last straw for me... and that's coming from a former 'Zonie who didn't know he had any straws left. I've completely disowned it.

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

Aren't you thinking of the stimulus? I think the bailout was under George W. Bush.

Bank bail out

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by LukeA

This.

Arizona can go f*ck themselves Its the last straw for me... and that's coming from a former 'Zonie who didn't know he had any straws left. I've completely disowned it.

I still can't believe it. I know that I should be more disillusioned by the world than I am, but how could something like that possibly pass???

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

For me, it doesn't even have to be "pro-abortion" (semantics, I know, but I don't think anyone is pro-abortion. I'm for a women's right to choose because studies have shown that the abortion rate does not significantly decrease when abortion is outlawed, however, the risk to the mother because of an improperly performed abortion increases), but it does need to be PRO-INFORMED CONSENT. The repercussions of what this law could mean for the medical profession terrify me.

Well, I'm all for semantics! In that respect, yes, indeed, no-one (reasonable) is pro-abortion.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

I still can't believe it. I know that I should be more disillusioned by the world than I am, but how could something like that possibly pass???

You have to think (or is it not thinking?) like Todd Lamb:
“The goal of this legislation is just to make a statement for the sanctity of human life,” State Senator Todd Lamb, the majority floor leader, said in an interview after the vote. “Maybe someday these babies will grow up to be police officers and arrest bad people, or will find a cure for cancer.”
Or could become bad people, or die of cancer. Arguably, I may have had a sperm that, if combined with the right egg (from the girl I secretly love, of course! ), could've produced a human that may have gone on to solve the Riemann Hypothesis. But that sperm may now be long gone, or will be produced soon and then die. Actually, women are even more to blame, because each egg that's not used each month is truly unique (men could produce two identical sex cells much easier than women, as men produce very many more during their lifetime). So there's a very good sense in which all humans are constantly aborting elements of the set of most admirable humans. I thus fail to see any good justification for why a coupling of the two sex cells (i.e. zygote) should receive any special protection pre-birth.
It may also surprise (well, it did me) that the majority of zygotes actually naturally abort anyway, unawares to the mother (yay, tracked it down! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7117572).
I also wonder what the likes of Todd Lamb would say if we could "genetically select" police officers or people that probably won't get cancer... actually, it's obvious!
"Stop playing God, evil heathen!"

[LikeAWillow]

I should have been more specific--Luke and I were actually talking about what's going on in Arizona right now, known to the NYtimes as Arizona enacts stringent law on immigration, and to Marissa as Arizona sets itself up to become a racist police state:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us...s/24immig.html

The pro-life mindset I can actually fully wrap my head around, as twisted as it is, because a not-so-insignificant part of me does think that life begins at conception. I just think that legalized abortion is the safest method for all people and potential people.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

I should have been more specific--Luke and I were actually talking about what's going on in Arizona right now, known to the NYtimes as Arizona enacts stringent law on immigration, and to Marissa as Arizona sets itself up to become a racist police state:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us...s/24immig.html

The pro-life mindset I can actually fully wrap my head around, as twisted as it is, because a not-so-insignificant part of me does think that life begins at conception. I just think that legalized abortion is the safest method for all people and potential people.

Well, the moment of conception is important for any individual, as it greatly increases the probability of that individual's successful birth. So, arguably, conception was the most important event in my life! But in doing so my conception denied the life of another human, one most probably better than myself.
As for immigration, I'd let everyone in. And if we need to make space, we could deport all the people who've lived at everyone else's expense to those horror-stricken, despairing places!

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by jaycee

Well, the moment of conception is important for any individual, as it greatly increases the probability of that individual's successful birth. So, arguably, conception was the most important event in my life! But in doing so my conception denied the life of another human, one most probably better than myself.
As for immigration, I'd let everyone in. And if we need to make space, we could deport all the people who've lived at everyone else's expense to those horror-stricken, despairing places!

I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about abortion, but I just don't buy your argument here. It doesn't matter that your conception denied the life of another human. That person wasn't alive. When you believe life begins at conception, like I stated I do, that's the line. Bam. Saying that I shouldn't be concerned about a fetus because I wasn't concerned about an egg doesn't make sense. I told you that I don't believe the egg is alive (or dear god, would my period be more upsetting to me than it already is each month!), but I do believe the fetus is.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about abortion, but I just don't buy your argument here. It doesn't matter that your conception denied the life of another human. That person wasn't alive. When you believe life begins at conception, like I stated I do, that's the line. Bam. Saying that I shouldn't be concerned about a fetus because I wasn't concerned about an egg doesn't make sense. I told you that I don't believe the egg is alive (or dear god, would my period be more upsetting to me than it already is each month!), but I do believe the fetus is.

Neither do I want to hijack the thread (if you really want, you can start a new thread, but I won't bother). I guess my main point is is that most abortions are natural anyway. Also, IVF centres always have a few zygotes left over - they take about twelve zygotes, and implant only three, of which (usually) only one becomes a baby. My other point (the one you're addressing) is that it's always a retrospective thing that I can say I'm happy to be alive, as my parents are - were it another zygote that became a baby, they'd be the one happy to be alive, and my parents would be happy with them. It's also a bit like how I don't want to die, but if I did die I wouldn't actually know any better.
Imo the best demarcation that's been suggested is working out at what stage the fetus suffers in the abortion (i.e. around the time the nervous system develops). Mind, anti-abortionists are unlikely to be vegetarians, and could care little for the suffering animals endure at a slaughterhouse, or even suffering humans that would prefer to die, so this argument is also probably wasted on them.
I think it's safe to say the thread can return to topic now. I've nothing more to add.

[KarmaContestant]

I have had an inclination in the past to let politics get the best of me. I'm very passionate about our country, our planet - our species - and the way we treat each other, and as such I tend to get far too caught up in the moment. The past year or so I've taken a step back away from it all to get more aquainted with my own personal views...trying to live my own life, so to speak.

Our leaders, be they judges, Senators or Mayors have hard jobs - most try to do their best, but some of them are not very good people when you get right down to it...some of them are rather dispicable folks, hungry for power. Others have admirable intentions, but all too soon they all get caught up in the 'reality' of politics...and eventually they let someone down somewhere and it all gets blown out of proportion.

I think a big part of the problem is that people look to politics more and more for their entertainment. Senators are celebrities; people can't wait to turn on their TV to hear how Republican so-and-so slammed Democrat so-and-so. Ooh! Snap! It's pathetic, really. These men and women were elected to do a job - part of which is not to entertain us with popularity contests and witty arguments. Politics has become the new reality TV where the common person tunes in to get their daily dose of drama to fill a void in what is an otherwise uninteresting life. That's a broad generalization, but it's an observation I've made that I feel very comfortable with.

I've come to accept the fact that no elected official is ever going to stand for and represent all of the things that I as an individual want to see. I'm so far left that it's very unlikely that I'll ever exist in a political system I truly enjoy.

I'd love to see taxes high enough to ensure that everyone gets a quality education, with a focus on arts, music and real history as well as math, sports and literature. I believe every citizen should get four years of college - just because they are citizens.

I would like to see universal medical coverage for everyone. I'll take that one step further and say that I'd also like to see all private medical institutions become non-profit organizations so the revenue they do make is all put back into better quality care and facilities.

And by citizens, I don't just mean Americans - I'm talking about the world. I am a global citizen, like all of you.

I think the food industry, water, electricity - all of these should be non-profit. I feel it's unethical to make a profit off of Earth's resources. We all live here - this is our planet - we are natives, with nowhere else to go. This entire world belongs to all of us, and it's shameful to me that we do not do a better job of making sure that all of us benefit equally from the resources that exist on our home - seemingly because we choose not to, not because we are incapable of doing so.

In that respect, I believe this should be a world without political borders. None of us are 'aliens' or 'illegal'. We are human beings, trying to make the best lives we can on the world we come from - the world that rightfully belongs to all of us. No one will ever convince me that we should not be able to go wherever we please, unrestrained.

As far as abortion, ugh, I'm a man and I think that pretty much disqualifies me from the debate. I'm also gay, which distances me even further. But I do have an opinion, and it's simple: If you don't like abortions, then don't have one. Shut up and get your nose and prying eyes out of the personal lives of others. Don't you have issues in your own life and family to deal with?

In the end, it's up to us to make our own lives the best we can. Unfortunately we give our power away to others to make rules and decisions for us, and it's shameful really. Representative government can and should work, but it never will as long as the same people keep representing only themselves over and over and over. Can we get some term limits up in here, please?

All in all I feel President Obama is doing a fine job. Is he doing a great job? I don't think it's possible to a 'great' job as an elected official - but by no means is he doing badly. I'm happy, even satisfied, because he is doing far better than I could under that kind of pressure.

If you're not happy, not satisfied - if you feel you could do a better job, then by all means please do. Go ahead and put your life and your family on the line for something you believe in. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. If you're not in politics to make the world a better place, for everyone, equally, then **** off and let those who want to lead the world forward do their job.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by jaycee

Neither do I want to hijack the thread (if you really want, you can start a new thread, but I won't bother). I guess my main point is is that most abortions are natural anyway. Also, IVF centres always have a few zygotes left over - they take about twelve zygotes, and implant only three, of which (usually) only one becomes a baby. My other point (the one you're addressing) is that it's always a retrospective thing that I can say I'm happy to be alive, as my parents are - were it another zygote that became a baby, they'd be the one happy to be alive, and my parents would be happy with them. It's also a bit like how I don't want to die, but if I did die I wouldn't actually know any better.
Imo the best demarcation that's been suggested is working out at what stage the fetus suffers in the abortion (i.e. around the time the nervous system develops). Mind, anti-abortionists are unlikely to be vegetarians, and could care little for the suffering animals endure at a slaughterhouse, or even suffering humans that would prefer to die, so this argument is also probably wasted on them.
I think it's safe to say the thread can return to topic now. I've nothing more to add.

Why are people so upset about abortion and denying human life. There are millions of people on this planet who are alive who have been denied a decent life. People who are in misery that should of never been brought into this world to begin with. I guess what I'm saying is don't romanticize life. It's the quality of life that counts. Only 6% people are able to get out of poverty. Poverty is not everything, but it does affect the quality of your life and many of those people were brought here by irresponsible people. The world is all ready overcrowded. Having a child should be a priviledge, not a right.

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Why are people so upset about abortion and denying human life. There are millions of people on this planet who are alive who have been denied a decent life. People who are in misery that should of never been brought into this world to begin with. I guess what I'm saying is don't romanticize life. It's the quality of life that counts. Only 6% people are able to get out of poverty. Poverty is not everything, but it does affect the quality of your life and many of those people were brought here by irresponsible people. The world is all ready overcrowded. Having a child should be a priviledge, not a right.

The truth hurts.