Off-Topic: Elton John today

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Cutting through the fog of religious indoctrination for a moment, don't you see something incredibly appalling and hurtful by what you just said? How would you feel if someone said, "Well, we think black people are abominations... but we'll hold our noses and accept you despite your dark skin color." How is this considered "tolerance?" Do you think human sexuality is something that can be simply turned on/off like a switch? You have a right to your own opinion (as shortsighted and ill-informed as it may be), but please have the decency to let your uncle live his life without the scorn of your family's judgment. Life is hard enough as it is- why do you have to perpetuate misery for others under the guise of religious dogma? I don't think Jesus would have approved.

I think that technically is tolerance - thus why I don't like tolerance. Acceptance is much preferred. Even then, I fail to see how and why anyone should have to accept someone else's private behaviour when it doesn't actually affect them (i.e. even acceptance still contains some degree of negative connotation) - it should be beyond acceptance! I can't think of a good word for that though...
Keep in mind that my argument is one of semantics, so I could possibly be wrong if my definitions aren't fully correct...

[Fiver]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Cutting through the fog of religious indoctrination for a moment, don't you see something incredibly appalling and hurtful by what you just said? How would you feel if someone said, "Well, we think black people are abominations... but we'll hold our noses and accept you despite your dark skin color." How is this considered "tolerance?" Do you think human sexuality is something that can be simply turned on/off like a switch? You have a right to your own opinion (as shortsighted and ill-informed as it may be), but please have the decency to let your uncle live his life without the scorn of your family's judgment. Life is hard enough as it is- why do you have to perpetuate misery for others under the guise of religious dogma? I don't think Jesus would have approved.

Woah, religious indoctrination, really? What I believe in is my choice. Sure I was raised Baptist, but it's not like I even agree absolutely with what they teach anymore (not that it'd be wrong if I did) and I came to these conclusions myself. My family doesn't force me to believe or adhere to anything.


As far as abominations are concerned:

Proverb 6:16-19 of the King James Version, states: “These six things doth the LORD hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”

The seven are all sins but at the same time, are abominations to God. Honestly, I'm guilty of a majority of those. So I'm also an abomination. All sin is an abomination to God.

Sorry if what I said came across as holier than thou.

"Well, we think black people are abominations... but we'll hold our noses and accept you despite your dark skin color."

Is that really what it sounded like? I don't feel that way at all. I don't believe I have a right to 'hold my nose up' at anything.

You have a right to your own opinion (as shortsighted and ill-informed as it may be), but please have the decency to let your uncle live his life without the scorn of your family's judgment.

And we don't pass judgement. I said I believe it's a sin, because I believe that's how God classifies it, in the Bible. But it's not like I go up to my uncle everyday and say. "Before I give you a hug, remember, I think homosexuality is a sin!" I don't bring it up, and we don't forbid him to talk about his life, including his partner or anything to do with his sexuality. Just like he 'tolerates' us mentioning church or anything related.

Hope that clears things up. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I don't think I am causing anyone, my uncle especially, pain or misery, and it's not my intent to.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Fiver

Is that really what it sounded like? I don't feel that way at all. I don't believe I have a right to 'hold my nose up' at anything.

I think it's one thing to tell someone that smoking is bad for you or that playing loud music in your headphones will make you go deaf. But here you are talking about a trait that is intrinsic to ones identity, not unlike skin color, gender, height, etc., as being tantamount to being a one-way ticket to hell. Since you consider homosexual acts an "abomination," what do you propose as the non-abominational alternative for your uncle? Should he live a lonely, loveless, unfulfilled life? Should he enter a loveless, unfulfilled marriage with a woman who is emotionally and physically neglected? Can he pray the gay away? How can your uncle become redeemed so that he is no longer an abomination in your eyes?

And we don't pass judgement. I said I believe it's a sin...

Sounds like passing judgment to me!

Hope that clears things up. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I don't think I am causing anyone, my uncle especially, pain or misery, and it's not my intent to.

I'm not saying that you are intentionally trying to inflict pain. What I am saying is that you apparently seem to be insensitive to the hurt caused by statements like that- whether expressed in jest privately or broadcast via the internet. How would you feel if your entire family expressed disappointment because you were born female when they were hoping for a son? What would that do to your self esteem and your relationships with your family members?

[Fiver]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I think it's one thing to tell someone that smoking is bad for you or that playing loud music in your headphones will make you go deaf. But here you are talking about a trait that is intrinsic to ones identity, not unlike skin color, gender, height, etc., as being tantamount to being a one-way ticket to hell. Since you consider homosexual acts an "abomination," what do you propose as the non-abominational alternative for your uncle? Should he live a lonely, loveless, unfulfilled life? Should he enter a loveless, unfulfilled marriage with a woman who is emotionally and physically neglected? Can he pray the gay away? How can your uncle become redeemed so that he is no longer an abomination in your eyes?



Sounds like passing judgment to me!




I'm not saying that you are intentionally trying to inflict pain. What I am saying is that you apparently seem to be insensitive to the hurt caused by statements like that- whether expressed in jest privately or broadcast via the internet. How would you feel if your entire family expressed disappointment because you were born female when they were hoping for a son? What would that do to your self esteem and your relationships with your family members?

I think you are taking what I say way too far. How is it okay for you to express your opinions on the matter, but not me? Or back on the topic, Elton John for that matter? I think he has a right to say what he wishes, and I don't believe in censorship. Even if what he says offends me.

I don't know what causes homosexuality, no one does. If you are sincerely asking me what I think gays should do in order to live in line with what the Bible says, I think it's a personal choice what they do. Celibacy, maybe? I'm not saying that lightly. I don't think people choose to be gay, but I don't know if it's nature or nurture. I have no clue. Like I said, I don't have all the answers.

I don't think that doing homosexual acts means you go to hell. I believe if you deny Jesus as your Saviour you go to hell. Go ahead and find that offensive as well, that's just my belief. I believe those verses I quoted illustrate that we are all sinners who need forgiveness, we all have our own sins, and while they may be different from our neighbour's, we are all equally guilty.

I guess I didn't make my point clear enough, but I say ALL sins are an abomination to God, therefore we will all go to hell if we don't accept Jesus.

I'm sorry I have offended you, but I was just adding my opinion to the discussion.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Fiver

I guess I didn't make my point clear enough, but I say ALL sins are an abomination to God, therefore we will all go to hell if we don't accept Jesus.

Fine, but human sexuality is intrinsic whereas all of those other "sins" are the result of voluntary actions.

But that's beside the point.

My original point was that you show insensitivity and inflict pain to people every time you express your "opinion" about homosexuality which, as you've acknowledged, is not a choice. If you can call something "wrong" but cannot really articulate what "right" would be, how does that really help anyone? Again, you're entitled to your opinions (which I hope, for your sake, will evolve), but please think before you express them.

[Fiver]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Fine, but human sexuality is intrinsic whereas all of those other "sins" are the result of voluntary actions.

But that's beside the point.

I don't look at it that way. The act of gay sex is voluntary. The act of adultery is voluntary. You can't choose not have the thoughts or urges, but ya have the choice whether or not to act on them.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

My original point was that you show insensitivity and inflict pain to people every time you express your "opinion" about homosexuality which, as you've acknowledged, is not a choice. If you can call something "wrong" but cannot really articulate what "right" would be, how does that really help anyone? Again, you're entitled to your opinions (which I hope, for your sake, will evolve), but please think before you express them.

The only 'right' I can tell ya is that I choose to follow the principles I find in the Bible, but I don't want to force that on anybody, it's my personal belief. According to the Bible, it is a sin to engage in homosexual intercourse, so I believe you should abstain from it.

I know it's hard to come across as genuine through a post on a message board, but I don't want to cause anyone pain. I'm not saying any of this flippantly. I just joined into the discussion to try and clear up what I considered to be misinformation about the bible. Maybe it wasn't wise of me to also give my opinion on homosexuality, so I want to apologize if I came across as insensitive. Hope you won't hold it against me. I don't think I 'know it all', and I do take into account what you're saying.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by Fiver

I don't look at it that way. The act of gay sex is voluntary. The act of adultery is voluntary. You can't choose not have the thoughts or urges, but ya have the choice whether or not to act on them.

That's pretty offensive- comparing gay sex (between two single consenting adults) with adultery (which has all kinds of violative connotations to it). So it does sound like your advice for your gay uncle is to abstain from engaging in the human experience and to become an unfeeling, uninvolved drone for the rest of his life. It seems like a rather cold, uncaring, spiteful god that would force punishment on people with these "urges," as well as people who eat shellfish and pork and wear cotton blend fabrics. That's why Jesus, the white knight with the surfer dude hair and Birkenstocks came down to earth to set right some of those pesky Old Testament teachings. What was his lesson? Forgiveness. Compassion. Civility. Live and let live. Did he denounce homosexuality? Nope. Did he embrace the persecuted? You betcha. And who is openly persecuted in modern day society more than GLBT? And why don't his so-called followers heed his example?

[Fiver]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

That's pretty offensive- comparing gay sex (between two single consenting adults) with adultery (which has all kinds of violative connotations to it). So it does sound like your advice for your gay uncle is to abstain from engaging in the human experience and to become an unfeeling, uninvolved drone for the rest of his life. It seems like a rather cold, uncaring, spiteful god that would force punishment on people with these "urges," as well as people who eat shellfish and pork and wear cotton blend fabrics. That's why Jesus, the white knight with the surfer dude hair and Birkenstocks came down to earth to set right some of those pesky Old Testament teachings. What was his lesson? Forgiveness. Compassion. Civility. Live and let live. Did he denounce homosexuality? Nope. Did he embrace the persecuted? You betcha. And who is openly persecuted in modern day society more than GLBT? And why don't his so-called followers heed his example?

When I said adultery I meant, having an affair. I guess I'm un-aware of the other, violative connotations, but whatever they are, they aren't included. I didn't mean to compare the two, I should have said 'fornication', as in out-of-wedlock.

And I just want to point out that the statement in bold is not part of Jesus' teachings, it was part of the laws the Israelis had to follow to keep themselves clean, before Jesus offered salvation. Like you said, he did away with those old testament beliefs that were no longer necessary after his sacrificial death. But the old testament wasn't alone in naming homosexuality as a sin.

Lastly, I don't think I have any more to add, other than I don't persecute homosexuals, and don't believe in the persecution of anyone who has different beliefs than my own.

[paleshadow]

I think that if Jesus appeared on Earth and declared that all men and women were created equally and as God intended them to be, many people would denounce him. I believe the Bible can be a convenient way to support ones repulsions to things they don't understand, or agree with.

I'm not attacking anyone, but I would like to ask those who take the Bible so literally why they do? Why is it that the bible is the moral gauge? It was written by a person, and translated many times. Why do you believe that the author of the bible had a hotline to God and wasn't just someone who had an opinion, and felt a need to explain what couldn't be explained at the time? If I wrote a list of things I thought were right and wrong, dug a hole and buried it, and someone dug it up thousands of years from now, could my ideas about morality become a template for the morals of a whole civilization?

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by paleshadow

I think that if Jesus appeared on Earth and declared that all men and women were created equally and as God intended them to be, many people would denounce him. I believe the Bible can be a convenient way to support ones repulsions to things they don't understand, or agree with.

I'm not attacking anyone, but I would like to ask those who take the Bible so literally why they do? Why is it that the bible is the moral gauge? It was written by a person, and translated many times. Why do you believe that the author of the bible had a hotline to God and wasn't just someone who had an opinion, and felt a need to explain what couldn't be explained at the time? If I wrote a list of things I thought were right and wrong, dug a hole and buried it, and someone dug it up thousands of years from now, could my ideas about morality become a template for the morals of a whole civilization?

This made me think of a quote that says something like "today's religion is tomorrows mythology" I read it one time but I can't remember who said it, or what it said exactly..

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

This made me think of a quote that says something like "today's religion is tomorrows mythology" I read it one time but I can't remember who said it, or what it said exactly..

I like that a lot! Why do people consider Zeuss and the Greek Gods, or the stories in the Mabinogion to be nothing more than romantic fiction, but think God personally delivered the Bible? What's the difference? Can someone explain that?

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Fine, but human sexuality is intrinsic whereas all of those other "sins" are the result of voluntary actions.

But that's beside the point.
.

There's evidence that sadistic personality disorder has biological routes. Should a sadist be accepted for acting on their impulses?

I know your finger is hovering over the reply button right now.Take a deep breath before you jump right back up on that soapbox.

I'm not equating homosexuality with sadism. I think what I just said was complete bull****. If it's not, I'm Tom Bundy for the relations I've had with other women. It is a hole in your argument, though, and when you have the balls to ask a poster with a thought out, structured, and well-intentioned post to

think before you express [your opinions]

,especially when your own are little more than rhetoric, you hurt our cause more than you help it. Fiver is trying to have a discussion with you. Being militant in response degrades that discussion.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by Fiver

I don't think that doing homosexual acts means you go to hell. I believe if you deny Jesus as your Saviour you go to hell. Go ahead and find that offensive as well, that's just my belief. I believe those verses I quoted illustrate that we are all sinners who need forgiveness, we all have our own sins, and while they may be different from our neighbour's, we are all equally guilty.

There are so many things I could say about this, but perhaps I won't bother... I'll ask something else instead.
Do you try to be a nice person just so that you can get into heaven? Or, put another way, would you be a selfish/exploitative person if you thought your god didn't exist? Or do you think everyone needs a god to be morally accountable and responsible?
I know they're all pretty much the same question...

[Fiver]

Originally Posted by jaycee

There are so many things I could say about this, but perhaps I won't bother... I'll ask something else instead.
Do you try to be a nice person just so that you can get into heaven? Or, put another way, would you be a selfish/exploitative person if you thought your god didn't exist? Or do you think everyone needs a god to be morally accountable and responsible?
I know they're all pretty much the same question...

No, I don't think you have to be a Christian to be a good, honest or moral person. And I don't believe in Salvation based on works.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by Fiver

No, I don't think you have to be a Christian to be a good, honest or moral person. And I don't believe in Salvation based on works.

Well, you're one-up on quite a few people!