racism

[carrie721]

this topic was touched on briefly in the philly roll call thread, and i'm curious what other people have to say about it.

at what point are a person's observations considered "racist" and "offensive"?

the audiences at the stevie and lindsey shows i've been to have not exactly been, um, a rainbow coalition of all creeds and colors. they've been made up of white people. OLD white people, to be specific.

is THAT racist? or ageist?

i see a lot of people -- here and elsewhere -- who are quick to jump on anyone who makes such observations and call them racist and offensive. but is merely describing your experiences discriminatory?

that just doesn't wash with me. i don't want to live in some orwellian newspeak society where simply using racial descriptors and acknowledging physical differences among people gets me in "trouble." we don't live in a homogenous culture, so why pretend we do? almost nothing in pop culture or other realms of art and media has universal appeal to people of all backgrounds. so why on earth is it so "offensive" to recognize that simple truth?

thoughts?

[camchristo]

^I'm with ya. I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread. Hejeira was just posting his observations, as far as I could tell. Anyone who takes a moment to observe the crowd at FM, SN or LB shows can see that it is mostly a white (and old) crowd. I can't recall ever seeing a black person in the audience at any of the Mac, Stevie or Lindsey shows I've been too. Oh wait, there was a black girl at Stevie's soundstage taping. However, she was a model who was being paid to be there and admitted to me that she had no earthly idea who Stevie Nicks was and had to look her up online. She mentioned that she was really looking forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire show she was going to be paid to attend a few weeks later. Different demographics have different interest. I'm not saying those demographics don't overlap on occasion.

I don't think it's being racist to notice that. It's not like anyone said that black people aren't welcome at FM shows. They just commented that the usual suspects are old and white.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by camchristo

^I'm with ya. I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread. Hejeira was just posting his observations, as far as I could tell. Anyone who takes a moment to observe the crowd at FM, SN or LB shows can see that it is mostly a white (and old) crowd. I can't recall ever seeing a black person in the audience at any of the Mac, Stevie or Lindsey shows I've been too. Oh wait, there was a black girl at Stevie's soundstage taping. However, she was a model who was being paid to be there and admitted to me that she had no earthly idea who Stevie Nicks was and had to look her up online. She mentioned that she was really looking forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire show she was going to be paid to attend a few weeks later. Different demographics have different interest. I'm not saying those demographics don't overlap on occasion.

I don't think it's being racist to notice that. It's not like anyone said that black people aren't welcome at FM shows. They just commented that the usual suspects are old and white.

When I saw Stevie in Vegas a few years ago, there was a young black woman in my row who brought her kid. She was singing and dancing along to every song! I remember being surprised to see a black person there. I agree with you both, I don't think it's racist to notice things like that.

[LukeA]

Back ten or so years ago, one of the most prolific posters on the Ledge happened to be a black man- a huge (straight) Stevie fan, for that matter. I also once saw a dude- looking like the spitting image of Morris Day- in a convertible driving down Dearborn in Chicago blasting "Murrow", of all songs.

Its true that Fleetwood Mac's fan base is not as organically integrated as, say, Springsteen's, or U2's, but I don't think this is anything that can be reflected at all upon anything. I didn't read the thread that this is apparently based on, but it sounds like (from your summarization) that its a waste of time anyways.

[carrie721]

^ i think it was a silly thing for someone to get "offended" over, but i see this issue come up fairly often, so i don't think a broader discussion is pointless.

[chriskisn]

I guess my question is (and remembering I'm Australian) why the need to make a point of mentioning the colour of someone's skin?

Do people comment "there were sure a lot of blondes at the show" or perhaps "Wow there were lots of people with hairy arms" or perhaps "half of the audience had big breasts". Of course not.

I understand that racism in the US is a lot more entrenched into society than in a country such as Australia (though don't worry we have our share), so people tend to look at that black vs white concept.

It is only the colour of a persons skin, not anything deeper than that.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

I guess my question is (and remembering I'm Australian) why the need to make a point of mentioning the colour of someone's skin?

Do people comment "there were sure a lot of blondes at the show" or perhaps "Wow there were lots of people with hairy arms" or perhaps "half of the audience had big breasts". Of course not.

I understand that racism in the US is a lot more entrenched into society than in a country such as Australia (though don't worry we have our share), so people tend to look at that black vs white concept.

It is only the colour of a persons skin, not anything deeper than that.

it is and it isn't.

i don't think that anyone should have opportunities closed off to them merely because they are a certain race. however ...

a person's appearance - and skin color is a part of that, even though it's something you can't control, unless you're michael jackson - can often say a lot about a person's cultural background. because of this, race can offer context and meaning to a story.

what gets under my (white, pasty) skin is when people take umbrage at any mention of race (and, really, you could substitute any label here, be it gender, sexuality, age, etc). to use the scenario that inspired this thread as an example, saying it is cool and interesting to see someone who, based on age and race, does not match fleetwood mac's usual demographic is absolutely benign.

and to use one of your examples (i know you were being facetious), if you saw someone with huge knockers at an itty bitty titty committee rally, that would be noteworthy.

i don't think there is any underlying bigotry in these comments; they're merely acknowedging a cognitive dissonance between the expected norm and reality. and moreover, i think it's an overreaction to say that something is offensive when it's just a description of what someone saw.

i think it's cool when i see straight people in gay parts of town or white people in hispanic parts of town, etc etc. these labels aren't always irrelevant, but their relevance doesn't make them categorically pejorative.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by carrie721

a person's appearance - and skin color is a part of that, even though it's something you can't control, unless you're michael jackson - can often say a lot about a person's cultural background. because of this, race can offer context and meaning to a story.

Well firstly you make an assumption based on the colour of the skin that it is saying something about a person's cultural background. That person may have exactly the same cultural background to you or I. Oh and on that topic I'm sure my cultural background is somewhat different to yours even though we share a skin colour (or we probably wouldn't be having this discussion).

Secondly it isn't as if you are saying "There were lots of people who had travelled over from India to see Stevie Nicks" hence offering a comment about a differing cultural background etc. What you (or others) are pointing out is that there are Americans of different skin colours at a show.

To me, identifying skin colour as a difference between people for no other reason that actually pointing out there is a difference is unnecessary.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Well firstly you make an assumption based on the colour of the skin that it is saying something about a person's cultural background. That person may have exactly the same cultural background to you or I. Oh and on that topic I'm sure my cultural background is somewhat different to yours even though we share a skin colour (or we probably wouldn't be having this discussion).

thanks for that steaming pile of condescension, person on the other side of the world.

Secondly it isn't as if you are saying "There were lots of people who had travelled over from India to see Stevie Nicks" hence offering a comment about a differing cultural background etc. What you (or others) are pointing out is that there are Americans of different skin colours at a show.

to say there is one cultural experience for all americans is just naive. age, sex, socioeconomic status, sexual identity, geography, and yes, race all play a part. i assume this is true in any large country with a heterogenous population.

To me, identifying skin colour as a difference between people for no other reason that actually pointing out there is a difference is unnecessary.

if you won't even admit that race can offer insight into someone's cultural background, then we can't have a conversation.

[HejiraNYC]

Well, as one of the handful of racial minorities here (I assume...), I can honestly say that I am pretty much over all of the political correctness when it comes to race. I resent the notion that, when asked to describe someone physically, I have to think twice... and mull it over again... before mentioning someone's ethnicity. Instead of simply saying, "it's the black dude over there wearing the T-shirt," you sometimes have to say something completely generic and useless like, "it's a man, about six feet tall... um... wearing a T-shirt... um... maybe 200 pounds... brown eyes... um..." If I'm black, call me black. If I'm Asian, call me Asian. It's okay. Really. And if you are surprised (as in pleasantly surprised) to see a young black person at a Fleetwood Mac concert, it's okay to feel that way, just like you would be surprised to see a 70-year-old man at a Jonas Brothers concert. Sure, it happens... but it's rather unusual. If you are in a field of pink tulips, you are definitely going to notice the stray blue tulip. If you are an NBA all-star standing in a crowded subway platform in Tokyo, I would notice you. If you are a double-amputee track and field runner with metal spikes instead of legs, I would notice you, and I would feel awed and inspired by your courage and perseverence. What's wrong with that? You shouldn't have to sit down and interview these "different" people and really get to know them before formulating an emotional/intellectual response to the situation- that's just such PC hogwash.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by carrie721

if you won't even admit that race can offer insight into someone's cultural background, then we can't have a conversation.

No you are right we can't...

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by carrie721

if you won't even admit that race can offer insight into someone's cultural background, then we can't have a conversation.

Thanks for that . I have never been to Australia, so I have no idea how homogenized (or not) the population is there, but America is not a perfect melting pot- it's still very much segregated along ethnic and cultural lines. And the segregation is mostly self-inflicted- for better or worse. Personally I love the diversity- it would be so boring to be in a country where everyone was the same color and everyone ate the same food, spoke the same language, wore the same clothes, listened to the same music, etc. I totally fall into certain ethnic stereotypes, and I'll be the first to admit them! Rather than being so sensitive about and fearful of stereotypes, we should embrace them and have fun with them- and even debunk them as-needed. That's the only way we're going to get beyond all of these silly PC shenanigans and start understanding each other better.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Thanks for that . I have never been to Australia, so I have no idea how homogenized (or not) the population is there, but America is not a perfect melting pot- it's still very much segregated along ethnic and cultural lines. And the segregation is mostly self-inflicted- for better or worse. Personally I love the diversity- it would be so boring to be in a country where everyone was the same color and everyone ate the same food, spoke the same language, wore the same clothes, listened to the same music, etc. I totally fall into certain ethnic stereotypes, and I'll be the first to admit them! Rather than being so sensitive about and fearful of stereotypes, we should embrace them and have fun with them- and even debunk them as-needed. That's the only way we're going to get beyond all of these silly PC shenanigans and start understanding each other better.

amen, mr. ching-chong .

i think stereotypes are funny, even when they apply to me. helloooooo, i am a dyke. i drive a pickup truck. i love dogs. i play softball. so on those counts, i'm pretty stereotypical and i acknowledge it. my friends call me a dyke and make jokes about. even though i'm not stereotypical on other counts, (i don't listen to ani, i don't love rachel maddow, i don't hate men), the label doesn't fluster me.

people take themselves too seriously.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well, as one of the handful of racial minorities here (I assume...), I can honestly say that I am pretty much over all of the political correctness when it comes to race. I resent the notion that, when asked to describe someone physically, I have to think twice... and mull it over again... before mentioning someone's ethnicity. Instead of simply saying, "it's the black dude over there wearing the T-shirt," you sometimes have to say something completely generic and useless like, "it's a man, about six feet tall... um... wearing a T-shirt... um... maybe 200 pounds... brown eyes... um..." If I'm black, call me black. If I'm Asian, call me Asian. It's okay. Really. And if you are surprised (as in pleasantly surprised) to see a young black person at a Fleetwood Mac concert, it's okay to feel that way, just like you would be surprised to see a 70-year-old man at a Jonas Brothers concert. Sure, it happens... but it's rather unusual. If you are in a field of pink tulips, you are definitely going to notice the stray blue tulip. If you are an NBA all-star standing in a crowded subway platform in Tokyo, I would notice you. If you are a double-amputee track and field runner with metal spikes instead of legs, I would notice you, and I would feel awed and inspired by your courage and perseverence. What's wrong with that? You shouldn't have to sit down and interview these "different" people and really get to know them before formulating an emotional/intellectual response to the situation- that's just such PC hogwash.

How dare you assume that, you racist.

Seriously. It's gotten to the point that people are fearful of mentioning anything about someone's apprearance to describe them. I could understand of someone said "hey, there was this n*gger at the show I was at!" or "see the guy over there, the gook?" Obviously racially insensitive & rude. If someone said "wtf is that spic doing at a Mac show?" Yeah, that's ****ty. I remember getting into an argument with Amber years ago because she said she saw a "chocolate fan" at a show. I thought it was offensive at the time, and she felt there was nothing wrong with saying that since her friend (who is black) had said the same thing, in those words.

But to simply mention someone's color/appearance & comment that you wouldn't have expected to see them at a show? What's wrong with that? We have 4 nurses @ work, 3 are white & 1 is black. our students often speak very limited English. When we ask them who they were treated by & they can't recall the nurse's name, we sometimes have to start with "is she white or black?" and move on from there to height, glasses or no glasses, hair color, etc. I have yet to find someone who is offended by this - nurses OR patients.

Specifically to the Mac show & the Philly thread, would we be discussing this at all had Hejira said "there was this really young teenager at the show, I thought that was really cool." I think not. Even though he's assuming that a young teen wouldn't normally be a fan & he's assuming things about his/her culture & upbringing that he is basing soley on age/appearance? Thoughts?

[jannieC]

As a social worker/therapist, I spent a LOT of time in graduate school mulling over diversity, white privilege, etc. Without going into detail (you're welcome) I will say that we were taught to acknowledge differences. For instance, if I am facilitating an all female, African-American domestic violence therapy group, I should, right off the bat, explain that I acknowledge that I am "different" and therefore don't have the same experiences, perspectives, etc., that they may have. It's silly to think that people don't have different believes and ideas based on their culture. As a social worker, I was taught to understand and embrace cultural differences.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with commenting on race, period. It *is* usual to see a black person at a Fleetwood Mac concert and I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out. I haven't read the thread in question, but as long as it's not derogatory, what difference does it make?

As an aside, the radio morning show I listen to here features two white guys and a black woman, Diedre (love her). She is a Fleetwood Mac/Stevie fan and she recently told a story about her best friend in college. She attended a historically black university here and one day as she was walking through the dorms, she heard Rhiannon playing on someone's stereo. It was so out of place and unusual that she knocked on the girls door and they've been friends ever since.