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[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by slowdancer

During the first debate, McCain never looked at Obama and did not refer to him by his first name. On the other hand, Obama kept calling McCain John and looked at him when he spoke to him. I wondered while watching if McCain would treat heads of state the same way, especially if he didn't agree with them. Obama showed the older man respect, but McCain's behaviour was borish. Obama shows he is in command of his emotions which makes him look more presidential compared to McCain's uptight and disdainful performance. Obama thinks and then acts, while McCain looks as if anything might set that famous temper of his off.

On the issues, McCain says he isn't a Washington insider and yet he has been there for 26 years. He is for the bailout but doesn't want to regulate anything, hence the financial crisis. If he and Palin are so against big government, where was McCain while Congress gave the current administration carte blanche to do what ever they wanted: increasing the national debt, invading a country that did not attack us, and on and on. We all know the rest. McCain and his party have weakened America. I'm hoping that Obama will be tough with McCain tonight, linking him over and over to the failed policies of the Bush/Cheney administration. Also McCain has never supported a woman's right to choose.

Obama will make the difference if elected, like the Kennedys and Martin Luther King did back in the 60s. McCain still wants to win the war in Vietnam and he sees "victory" in Iraq as a way to salvage our honor. He sees every thing in black or white. He thinks with his gut, like Bush does and his choice of Palin was purely political and an insult to intelligent men and women everywhere. She is all style and no substance.

McCain can't talk about his record because it puts him in bed with Bush, so he and Palin have to resort to character assassination and they have already started. But Obama is better than these two hacks and he needs to be aggressive and hit back hard tonight, especially going after McCain and his connection to the Keating Five
debacle.

Didn't mean to write all this, but I feel there is so much at stake and we need a young and energetic leader who is full of promise and hope. And we need a seasoned statesman like Biden by his side.

Biden made up the facts as he went and related events that did not happen, skewed events that did happen and put Obama in the Senate 20 years before he actually got there. He was caught lying by fact check 14 times. Ted Baxter lives.

The economy at this point is largely Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Bush, Clinton and the collective congresses from the last 20 years fault; the congressional black caucus is especially at fault, as they are on tape pushing Franklin Raines into making bad loans. It is also Ben Bernanke's fault for encouraging this sort of lending by trying to artificially inflate housing prices by lowering interest rates, but most of all it is the fault of the lenders and borrowers who made horrendous business decisions to lend to people who bought more house than they could afford and the bidding war that ensued until the market could no longer sustain the artificially inflated prices.

McCain actually called for tighter regulation 12 times in the last few years. The idea that he lobbied for deregulation of mortgages is an outright lie. Both Dodd and Obama actually took the most money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Obama has also consulted Raines and one other executive in his campaign. It is true Raines has no official capacity, however Obama is calling one of the guys who caused this mess for advice. That should send chills down anyone's spine.

[Richard B]

This is a good debate to watch as the questions will be pulled from undecided, random voters. They will also ask questions from internet submissions.
So there is no agenda, no topics for either candidate to really rehearse for.

[slowdancer]

This from the David Byrne Journal:

"Last night was the Biden/Palin debate. I listened in, but only a bit. Palin tries to throw out key phrases and push the buttons the voters want to hear (lower taxes, less government, economic security) while Biden gives hard evidence. Her platitudes are mostly lies, as is the Republican style. They often rightly assume that no one will actually check or call them on their bull****. Sadly, their technique of lying till people think it’s true often works — a pathetic reflection of the American voter. I sort of wish the Democrats would take off the kid gloves and call these people on their bull****. I mean, the Republican policies and the Bush administration facilitated the credit-banking mess, the attendant economic decline, oil-friendly energy policies, the huge debt the US is saddled with, and the expenditure of billions a week on an endless illegal war. The McCain camp has appropriated the Obama “change” mantra, but their behavior says more of the same."

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by GoS

But come on, can you actually trust any of these polls? I don't.

Somewhat. Watching the polls change are a good indicator of the country's mood, but they do not accurately reflect the actual makeup of voting habits, since there are too many variables. The young vote tends to reply enthusiastically, but they tend not to actually vote. Conservatives view pollsters with general hostility. They are not accurate, they tend to swing left by about an average of 3 points or so; more still if the poll was conducted during the day.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by slowdancer

This from the David Byrne Journal:

"Last night was the Biden/Palin debate. I listened in, but only a bit. Palin tries to throw out key phrases and push the buttons the voters want to hear (lower taxes, less government, economic security) while Biden gives hard evidence. Her platitudes are mostly lies, as is the Republican style. They often rightly assume that no one will actually check or call them on their bull****. Sadly, their technique of lying till people think it’s true often works — a pathetic reflection of the American voter. I sort of wish the Democrats would take off the kid gloves and call these people on their bull****. I mean, the Republican policies and the Bush administration facilitated the credit-banking mess, the attendant economic decline, oil-friendly energy policies, the huge debt the US is saddled with, and the expenditure of billions a week on an endless illegal war. The McCain camp has appropriated the Obama “change” mantra, but their behavior says more of the same."

Can we please keep David Byrne out of this?

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by slowdancer

This from the David Byrne Journal:

"Last night was the Biden/Palin debate. I listened in, but only a bit. Palin tries to throw out key phrases and push the buttons the voters want to hear (lower taxes, less government, economic security) while Biden gives hard evidence. Her platitudes are mostly lies, as is the Republican style. They often rightly assume that no one will actually check or call them on their bull****. Sadly, their technique of lying till people think it’s true often works — a pathetic reflection of the American voter. I sort of wish the Democrats would take off the kid gloves and call these people on their bull****. I mean, the Republican policies and the Bush administration facilitated the credit-banking mess, the attendant economic decline, oil-friendly energy policies, the huge debt the US is saddled with, and the expenditure of billions a week on an endless illegal war. The McCain camp has appropriated the Obama “change” mantra, but their behavior says more of the same."

Biden was quite short on facts. He lied and they just sounded like facts because he has a Sam Waterston like quality that you can believe just about anything he says. Here are some fact checks for Biden:

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax. In addition, the Alaska State Constitution gives Alaska residents the right to collect revenues from the sales of oil.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more, which would pass the taxes on by way of higher prices.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

15. Biden said that the US and France routed Hezbollah out of Lebanon and that Obama and he called for Nato to fill in the GAP. The incident Biden was speaking of was when Syria routed the US out of Lebanon and killed the entire troop contingent. The event happened in 1983 and Obama would not appear in the senate for another 20 years.

[strandinthewind]

1. Why should the taxpayers have to shell out a per diem for Palin to choose to stay in her own home about an hour away from the official residence - the Gov. Mansion?

2. Why should the state pay for Palin to take her kids on official events to the tune of $43,490. What was the specific busines purpose for having her kids there. If it was a perk, go ahead and say it. In fact, I would not object to it. But, don't BS about it.

Palin is the gift that just keeps on giving:

State reviewing per diem payments to Palin

By BRETT J. BLACKLEDGE, Associated Press Writer

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's practice of charging the state when she stays in her home must be reviewed to determine if she should pay taxes on the payments, state Finance Director Kim Garnero said Tuesday.

Palin, the Republican vice presidential nominee, released two years' worth of tax returns last week that did not list the per diem payments she received since becoming Alaska governor in December 2006. She collected nearly $17,000 during that period for 312 nights spent in her Wasilla home about an hour's drive from Anchorage, according to state travel records.

Palin has relied on the state's calculation of her taxable income, reported in her annual income statements known as W-2s, said Roger Olsen, a Washington, D.C., tax lawyer asked by the Palins to review their tax returns before they were made public last week.

"The income tax aspects of fringe benefits are complex and highly technical, and not subject to second-guessing by laymen," Olsen wrote in a three-page letter outlining his review of the returns.

Palin listed 157 days spent in Anchorage during 2007 on her travel forms. Garnero said Palin's work place as governor is considered to be Juneau, so she filed for the per diem payments — most times the full $60 a day — when she worked in her Anchorage office and stayed at her Wasilla home.

But state officials consider changing an employee's work station when they spend most of their time in another area, she said. That review will occur for Palin, Garnero said, which may require Palin to report future per diem payments as income.

"That's something we need to confer with the governor's office on," said Garnero, who said she was not aware of the number of days Palin spent working in Anchorage.

State rules for employees who receive a large amount of per diem payments are difficult to apply to Palin because she has no supervisor monitoring how long she works at another state office, Garnero said.

A typical work year for most employees is 260 days, but Garnero said the governor's staff told her Tuesday that her work year is considered 365 days because she is on call around the clock. That would mean Palin spent about 43 percent of last year working in Anchorage, and would allow the governor to continue receiving per diem payments that aren't taxed when she stays at her home, Garnero said.

The state review will not consider whether Palin should report past per diem payments as income. "In the past, we've gone prospective. We've never gone retroactive" when reviewing per diem paid to state employees, Garnero said.

The final decision likely will be made by the Internal Revenue Service, said Allen Bingham, an Anchorage accountant and member of the Alaska Society of Certified Public Accountants' taxation committee. IRS officials could determine that Palin owes taxes on past and future per diem payments, he said.

Bingham said Palin's situation is unusual because she claimed such a large number of days working away from Juneau, something that would typically raise red flags when considering whether the per diem should be considered income.

"It's certainly one of those things that some of us have raised our eyebrows about," he said.

The IRS likely also will want details about $43,490 the state paid Palin over 20 months for family travel, including commercial airline tickets the state bought for some of her children to join the governor. Bingham said taxpayers must show a specific business purpose for the state reimbursement, some actual work or duty performed for the expense.

"I guess I'm surprised that the state is paying for the kids. I don't know what the state business purpose is here," Bingham said.

Palin's returns showed that she and her husband underpaid their estimated taxes with an April extension and likely will owe interest. The per diem payments and family travel expenses were not included as income in those returns.

During the two tax years for which Palin released her returns, she claimed four dependent children. She gave birth this year to a fifth child. The family travel was a legitimate paid expense because Palin's husband and children represented the state at events, said Maria Comella, a campaign spokeswoman.

"The only time the children's travel was reimbursed was when they were traveling as part of an official event," she said.

Olsen, who worked in the Reagan administration's Department of Justice's tax division as an assistant attorney general, noted in his review of Palin's tax returns that her per diem payments were handled correctly by state officials as non-taxable because the governor's place of business was considered to be Juneau.

"No special consideration was ever given to Governor Palin, notwithstanding that she was the governor of Alaska," Olsen wrote.

Olsen said state law allows the governor's relatives to receive payment for travel costs "when conducting official state business." But his review did not address what state business was performed by Palin's children.

"Such payments for family members traveling on state business would not properly be included as taxable income on Governor Palin's federal tax returns," Olsen wrote.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/...in_tax_returns

[estranged4life]

I TRIED to watch it, but I grew bored listening to the same answers I have heard to the same questions pre-debate.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

I TRIED to watch it, but I grew bored listening to the same answers I have heard to the same questions pre-debate.

I know -- it's like watching Titanic again - THE BOAT SINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I know -- it's like watching Titanic again - THE BOAT SINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes! I am soooo exhausted by all the same bull sh*t.

Say something different, already! Stop pointing fingers and step up and tell us what the hell you expect to do for us, dammit! If McCain is going to keep saying "my friends" over and over again, I am going to turn this thing off!

Both sound a bit nervous and bumbling, which is interesting since both are said to excel in this format.

[Ledge Moderators]

The political discussions are very popular and rightly so, but based on requests from some posters, we thought it might be easier to navigate Chit Chat if all the political threads were combined in one place. That will make it easy for the participants to find them and easy for those who don't want to participate to skip them.

Put all your posts about McCain, Obama, Biden, Palin and Company in this thread. We'll make it a sticky, so you can always find it right at the top of Chit Chat.

After the elections, when the discussions will probably decrease significantly, we'll unstick.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I know -- it's like watching Titanic again - THE BOAT SINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the length of this debate will be WAY TOO LONG. Almost as painful as watching William Shatner's "Shakespearan Theatre"...



Gee, If I was on the Titanic and had the choice between jumping into the icy Atlantic or listening to the same answers from both candidates, I think a nice ice-cube swim would be my choice.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

Yes! I am soooo exhausted by all the same bull sh*t.

Say something different, already! Stop pointing fingers and step up and tell us what the hell you expect to do for us, dammit!

Both sound a bit nervous and bumbling, which is interesting since both are said to excel in this format.

McCain looks like he ate too much at the buffet - his coat is too tight and his tie is hanging below his scrotal sac, which, at his age . . . .

Speaking of age, he appears to be breathing in an eratic manner at times.

Obama is giving his same ole same ole.

Many assume I am so pro Obama. I am not. I think he is a bad choice for the D's and I do not really like him. But, I'll take him over four more years of W, which is exactly was McCain is selling no matter what he or anyone else says.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Ledge Moderators

The political discussions are very popular and rightly so, but based on requests from some posters, we thought it might be easier to navigate Chit Chat if all the political threads were combined in one place. That will make it easy for the participants to find them and easy for those who don't want to participate to skip them.

Put all your posts about McCain, Obama, Biden, Palin and Company in this thread. We'll make it a sticky, so you can always find it right at the top of Chit Chat.

After the elections, when the discussions will probably decrease significantly, we'll unstick.

That's a good idea -- can you combine, say, the last 15 threads into one -- that way, there will be reference in the, albeit large, thread. Otherwise people are just going to keep posting in the other, non-consolidated threads.

[Musicman408]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

McCain looks like he ate too much at the buffet - his coat is too tight and his tie is hanging below his scrotal sac, which, at his age . . . .

Speaking of age, he appears to be breathing in an eratic manner at times.

Obama is giving his same ole same ole.

Many assume I am so pro Obama. I am not. I think he is a bad choice for the D's. But, I'll take him over four more years of W, which is exactly was McCain is selling no matter what he or anyone else says.

During the primaries, I was a fervant supporter of Hillary Clinton, as evidenced by this button.