More Palin Lies

[ajmccarrell]

[quote] Originally Posted by strandinthewind
Not only that, but W essentially gave a phantom tax cut. While he most certainly cut everyones' taxes at the Federal level, he simultaneously cut funding for many state programs, which caused the states to raise the lost revenue via higher taxes. So, while the average person may have had a few hundred more dollars a year off of their Federal income tax, they likely had a similar amount added to their state taxes or will have it added in the future because the sate (and the Feds) borrowed the money to close the gap.

Moreover, Obama's plan will work because it has in the past and history demonstrates it can correct a huge Federal deficit like the deficit left by another 12 years of insane R rule. In 1993, the Federal deficit exceeded about $300 billion a year. Bill Clinton and Congress raised taxes and slashed spending. The effect was the deficits that had ballooned under Reagan and Bush 41 were tamed. Moreover, we had economic expansion, job creation, a stock boom, and a budget surplus of trillions of dollars when Clinton left office -- compare that to what we have now, which is insane debt, a crashing stock and housing market (due to non-existent regulation) , a ballooned national debt that W promised to pay off while in office with the rev. he expected to generate through the economic growth he promised to obtain through he tax cuts (which McSame was against) I get that the Clinton economy was not perfect due to the dot.com bust, but clearly it was much better than the crapola W has let fester. McSame wants to extend that plan though he may (a big if) control the spending slightly better, though his current platform suggests he will not no matter what he says.

In the end, I am for the fair tax because the numbers show the poor will pay no tax and everone else pulls their own weight via a tax on their spending. I would even be for a flat tax where no one making under $75,000 a year is taxed at all. But, that fantasy will never happen. So, in the real world, I am for the plan that has been demonstrated to work very well despite any abstract economic theories that obviously have not worked in their application over the last 30 or so years.[quote]




I hesitate to think that you honestly believe that the economic situation when Bill Clinton raised taxes is THE SAME as the economic climate today?! Do you really want to be making that claim? Again, take an econ course and we can discuss it. Until then, you are talking out of your ass and expressing meaningless opinions. To sum up your argument, Obama should #1. raise taxes, #2, increase spending to unprecedented levels as he has promised to do, #3 cut benefits as a bi-product of tax increases and the banks will suddenly stop failing and the birds will be singing and everything will be okay. This is truly the stuff of parody. I really thought you had a better grasp of the issues than this. Yes, the fair tax would work. You are correct there.

Also, my theories are not vague, they are taught in EVERY economics classroom all around the world, from Harvard to the crappy falling apart trade school down the road. You claimed the be some night school president, which you are obviously not, otherwise you would have consulted your econ instructor, which you didn't. Go to the library, pick up a book and (gasp) read it. Talking out of your rear is a poor substitute for actual knowledge on a subject. You might actually learn something by reading.

Also, we did have a surplus DURING Clinton's term, but we'd hit a mild recession at the end of it that started eating up the surplus. We then had a stock crash, because of the dot.com bust, or did you skip that year or two? We had much the same thing going on with banks now, where businesses did IPO's for businesses that had no line of business. People lost their shirts, but you conveniently forgot that. Our surplus was also nowhere near "the trillions" as you said. We have NEVER at any point in history had a surplus that high. Look it up, facts are readily available. Or am I being "too tedious" by directing you to facts because it contradicts your "thoughts"?

[GoS]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

I hesitate to think that you honestly believe that the economic situation when Bill Clinton raised taxes is THE SAME as the economic climate today?! Do you really want to be making that claim? Again, take an econ course and we can discuss it. Until then, you are talking out of your ass and expressing meaningless opinions. To sum up your argument, Obama should #1. raise taxes, #2, increase spending to unprecedented levels as he has promised to do, #3 cut benefits as a bi-product of tax increases and the banks will suddenly stop failing and the birds will be singing and everything will be okay. This is truly the stuff of parody. I really thought you had a better grasp of the issues than this. Yes, the fair tax would work. You are correct there.

Tell me if I am not understanding you here, but you seem to think McCain continuing Bush's policies will fix this problem. How exactly would that work? If Bush's policies made this problem, then made it worse, when are they suddenly going to make it all okay again? Obama can say what he will do EXACTLY (which McCain cannot) and where he will get the money do the things we will do (again, McCain has not, probably because he cannot). McCain himself said that the fundamentals of the American economy are the workers, Obama's tax plan will give them tax CUTS where McCain will give them INCREASES. Won't that help them a bit? And Obama will raise taxes for the rich, who do not need tax cuts. The only reason McCain can say Obama will raise taxes is because McCain's taxes will be going up, a fact which does not make him happy.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by GoS

Tell me if I am not understanding you here, but you seem to think McCain continuing Bush's policies will fix this problem. How exactly would that work? If Bush's policies made this problem, then made it worse, when are they suddenly going to make it all okay again? Obama can say what he will do EXACTLY (which McCain cannot) and where he will get the money do the things we will do (again, McCain has not, probably because he cannot). McCain himself said that the fundamentals of the American economy are the workers, Obama's tax plan will give them tax CUTS where McCain will give them INCREASES. Won't that help them a bit? And Obama will raise taxes for the rich, who do not need tax cuts. The only reason McCain can say Obama will raise taxes is because McCain's taxes will be going up, a fact which does not make him happy.

Lets' get a few things straight. #1. The president does not control the economy and a candidate can make all the promises he wants to about fixing the economy but the plain and simple truth is that they cannot. #2. They can only set tax policy, which either constricts or loosens the flow of cash. #3. I don't agree that Bush's policies did this in the first place, I'm not so stupid as to blame the president for everything that goes wrong. I didn't waste 6 years of my life in college studying business and economics to completely disregard it and assume that the president controls markets. #4. The people who control the economy are just that; the people. The economy is measured by GDP, which is the summary of all domestic spending activity. If we stop spending money, the economy tansk, if we spend money, the economy does well. That basically sums up the VERY BASIC mechanics of the economy. #5. The problem we are having is because of personal greed on the part of both homebuyers and of lenders, as well as lax regulation that allowed mortgages to be traded as securities. Here's how this worked step by step: a. lenders found ways to get people loans that otherwise should not have had them such as jumbo loans 0 down financing, etc, b. stupid consumers who could not budget signed on the dotted line without considering the consequences, c. this continued for the last 15 years and started a housing supply shortage to the point where housing prices were bid up to ridiculous levels and appreciation was at historic levels, d. banks started buying these mortgages and trading them on the markets as investments which set up chain reactions of profits everywhere, e. as people started running out of money because their low introductory rates expired, the banks started calling the loans and prices fell, as there were no longer enough qualified buyers who were willing to pay inflated prices and housing values fell dramatically, f. the banks had to suddenly start coming up with the cash for the loans that were defaulted on while their assets (the homes themselves) were now worth pennies on the dollar and the banks started collapsing because they no longer had enough in assets to secure their liabilities. This was a complete market problem and a failure of the banking regulations. The president is not solely responsible, but this bonanza started long before Bush was even president. It took 15 years to happen.

I have continually cited here and elsewhere that Obama cannot even begin to pay for his plans. For one, there is a diminishing returns effect on any tax increase, because business slows down. Raising taxes on the segment he plans to will make life harder for everyone else, because tax increases on any segment are passed down to the next few tax brackets by way of higher prices and lost opportunity. If you look up a term called "price elasticity" you will see that taxes play into this as well. A tax increase put on any segment is then passed along to the poorer brackets by way of higher prices. Conversely, when you cut taxes, people are more likely to invest and create jobs. Obama really needs a basic econ course. Everything he has suggested would make today seem like the good 'ol days. Simply raising taxes and closing loopholes will only work, "Ceteris paribus" meaning all things remaining equal. However, because of the inherent inefficiencies we see in the medicare system, the same thing will happen to the Obama health care system. One major reason why health care costs are so high is because Medicare is willing to pay $200 for a foam pad and $80 for a metal cane, as suppliers know they can charge whatever they want to because the government won't negotiate. This is a very basic function of supply and demand. If Obama had his way, his $150 Billion dollar health care plan would rise exponentially, because it increases the demand curve, while doing nothing to stifle price increases due to increased demand. It is painfully shortsighted. In addition, raising taxes on people who are employers will increase dependancy on the government for medical care, as employers will use the omney they are spending on your benefits to pay for their tax increases. The costs will then continue to rise and instead of 40 million in uninsured, we would see maybe 100 million uninsured and taxes would have to go up yet again to pay for it and the cycle gets worse, or we increase deficit spending and the national debt to pay for it, which lowers the value of the dollar and imports (since most of the manufacturing companies are already gone, or will leave after the tax hikes) will be vastly more expensive and the cost of living will rise further. We will then be in a full fledged depression and not just a recession. Anyway, this is a lot to digest, so if you have more questions, feel free to ask. In short, you would be living on "hope & change" and you might have to eat it too.

One last note, a fundamental fact is that I have never been hired by a poor person. By making the rich pay more in taxes, you chase companies overseas where taxes are lower, as well as limit opportunities for raises and new jobs. I have worked for businesses who were put under by their tax burdens, as well as another that went to Mexico because of government regulation and high taxes. Being an accountant, I'm a little closer to the subject than your average person. McCain will not raise taxes and never said he would. He has a strong record on taxes. A good few years or so studying taxes in economics courses, as well as about ten years of work experience at a level to know the consequences of tax policy, raising taxes on one segment always raises the taxes on another because consumers always foot the bill. That nifty tax cut Obama would give you would be eaten up in higher prices and higher costs due to his tax increases on the brackets above you. But, I guess it's nice to see a middle class tax cut, however it won't mean much when you don't have a job.

[shackin'up]

Stop the international interferences and you guys can pay for everything the USA needs. A decent healthplan to start with.

[GoS]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Stop the international interferences and you guys can pay for everything the USA needs. A decent healthplan to start with.

Exactly. We need to fix ourselves at home before we can even think of anything else. And at this point,if McCain got his way and we went to war with Russia, who would we send?

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Stop the international interferences and you guys can pay for everything the USA needs. A decent healthplan to start with.

I partially agree. I think we spend a ridiculous amount in foreign aid, however part of the problem with health care IS the governmental interference. Vendors can charge whatever they want to because Medicare will pay for it, which is one of the largest reasons why supplies are so expensive. Secondly, we have the most restrictive regulation on drugs in the world, which makes drugmaking extremely expensive, thirdly we need caps on lawsuits. Fixing all of those would fix our health care problems. Government run health care hasn't worked anywhere. Our system USED to work before the government got to it.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by GoS

Exactly. We need to fix ourselves at home before we can even think of anything else. And at this point,if McCain got his way and we went to war with Russia, who would we send?

He said last night on 60 Minutes that he didn't want a war with Russia. The NATO treaty mandates "response" from all allies which isn't the same as war. This idea doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, so I guess it's beyond the democrats.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

Our system USED to work before the government got to it.

No it didn't. It only worked for the upperclass, and you know it. But I guess that's the way you want it.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

No it didn't. It only worked for the upperclass, and you know it. But I guess that's the way you want it.

This is just pathetic. Do you have anything to support your point of view? I'd like EVERYONE to be rich, thank you. I don't need you telling me how I feel.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

Government run health care hasn't worked anywhere.

You should visit Scandinavia and The Netherlands, dude. You just don't know what you're assessing here.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

You should visit Scandinavia and The Netherlands, dude. You just don't know what you're assessing here.

My old boss came from the Netherlands, he didn't think it worked either, and he even supports Obama. I guess it depends on what your definition of "works" is. From what he said, there were a lot of derelicts and druggies over there because no one has to work if they don't want to and he said the system there perpetuated this kind of thing. He thought we got much better care over here and that the work or starve idea propelled people to be more productive here.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

My old boss came from the Netherlands, he didn't think it worked either, and he even supports Obama. I guess it depends on what your definition of "works" is. From what he said, there were a lot of derelicts and druggies over there because no one has to work if they don't want to and he said the system there perpetuated this kind of thing. He thought we got much better care over here and that the work or starve idea propelled people to be more productive here.

OK. Your old boss is right. The mentioned countries have worldwide acknowledged healthplans, but your boss is the one you listen to. Sleep well.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

OK. Your old boss is right. The mentioned countries have worldwide acknowledged healthplans, but your boss is the one you listen to. Sleep well.

It wasn't that long ago that Cuba seemed to be the bees knees with American liberals for their health care plan because of Michael Moore's "Sicko". The world also puts their faith in the UN, so just because the rest of the world likes something, it's usually a pretty good indication that I should have a healthy suspicion of it. I will research it though and see what it's all about.

[GoS]

Originally Posted by ajmccarrell

He said last night on 60 Minutes that he didn't want a war with Russia. The NATO treaty mandates "response" from all allies which isn't the same as war. This idea doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, so I guess it's beyond the democrats.

He has said countless times one thing and later said/done the opposite. When he said that he did not want war he meant not this moment. Compare the McCain 2000 voting record vs the McCain 2008 ideas for an example.

[ajmccarrell]

Originally Posted by GoS

He has said countless times one thing and later said/done the opposite. When he said that he did not want war he meant not this moment. Compare the McCain 2000 voting record vs the McCain 2008 ideas for an example.

Name one thing where he's said something and done the opposite. One thing people usually say about McCain is that he's consistent if nothing else.