So Lindsey wasn't on the Sara demo?

[trackaghost]

Courtesy of Nancy of Buckingham Nicks, Tom Moncrieff and backing singer Annie McLoone on the recording of the Cleaning Lady version of Sara.

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/bn/tusk/sara.html

This is a surprising I must say. For sure the record version is better but all the elements that make Sara brilliant are pretty much there on the demo and if what they say is true it sounds like Lindsey wasn't on the demo at all.

[strandinthewind]

I know. So, while I think LB's effort on the album cut is stellar, the demo. is fab. as well. I wonder how much of the demo is Stevie and how much of the arrangement the producer and players did. I have heard the piano demo. and it sounds like the demo but it is only the paino, etc.

[David]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Courtesy of Nancy of Buckingham Nicks, Tom Moncrieff and backing singer Annie McLoone on the recording of the Cleaning Lady version of Sara.

http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/bn/tusk/sara.html

This is a surprising I must say. For sure the record version is better but all the elements that make Sara brilliant are pretty much there on the demo and if what they say is true it sounds like Lindsey wasn't on the demo at all.

We'd probably need more verification from the Tusk musicians or engineers who spent all those months with the track as it went through various permutations. How, for example, does Annie know for sure that the Sara rough on the Tusk reissue is the very track -- with no additional recording on it -- that she & Tom made with Stevie & Hernan? Did she watch David McLees & the band pull songs for the project? (Annie herself says that she's heard "a few versions" of it.) For all we know, the band pulled out the Moncrieff/McCloone/Nicks version & dabbled with it a bit more the next day, & put it back with the same "demo" label on it. In the studio, trying to pinpoint what stage something is at on any given day -- especially when it's Fleetwood Mac -- is probably next to impossible.

It's very odd that she & Tom were given no credit on the album (either the original or the reissue) if Hernan Rojas (who helped engineer the 1979 issue) is certain they're there. Even Lindsey Buckingham admits it, according to Annie. So why no credit all these decades later? If I had played anything on that enormously popular track, you can damned well bet I'd demand a piece of the action by now.

I have a feeling there's more to this story than meets the eye. But it's interesting knowing that Tom & Annie played a significant role in the creation of that song in the studio. 1978 was obviously a cool year for all of them: this "Tusk" work as well as Annie & Tom both recording with Stevie & Lindsey on the "Not Shy" album.

Maybe even Walter Egan plays on Sara! (Seriously, though, maybe he helped record Sisters of the Moon for them. When he did it live at that time, the melody line of his vocal sounds exactly like Stevie's lead vocal on her piano demo.)

[face of glass]

Sharon, I don't know if you started this because you want to continue our ridiculous Buckingham vs. Nicks debate or not.
I even have my reasons to doubt McLoone's comment, since fans have generally assumed that it's Lindsey who's responsible of the sigh in the middle of the "I wanna be a star...I don't wanna be a cleaning lady" statement.
But let's assume that Annie McLoone is right, that Lindsey didn't contribute anything else than the sigh to the demo.

This is a surprising I must say. For sure the record version is better but all the elements that make Sara brilliant are pretty much there on the demo and if what they say is true it sounds like Lindsey wasn't on the demo at all.

I don't understand what's so surprising or even shocking about this "revelation".
We all know that it's Stevie playing the piano riff, her own invention, a thing that wasn't changed in the finished product (as McLooney stated, they used the demo take on the album and for me they've always sounded like the same thing anyway). And her vocal delivery didn't change that much either.
I've always believed personally that Mick didn't need that much guidance in what he played for Fleetwood Mac.
Moncrieff pretty much maps out the territory for John's bass, although he doesn't have the same feel of flexibility that John has. And I think what I said above of Mick can be said of John too.
Since you think I'm nothing but a generic Lindsey fanboy I'll switch to that mode for the following.
Personally I find "Sara" a good song, not necessarily technically but it can be seen as moving, for sure. Even then, nine minutes of the demo is too much for me. I think it is a monotonous, plodding piece of music that for me works as a background thing but when I actually try to listen to it I get bored by it somewhat. The demo is a thing that hardly makes any distinction between the verses and the choruses; it sounds like a very undynamic thing overall. I don't think I would enjoy it more if it was cut down to the length it is on the album (or to the four-and-a-half minute thing that it is on the original Tusk cd).
I like McLoone's experiments with her background vocals but overall they don't add up for me. And Moncrieff, in the end, mainly supplies rhythmic work, the territory that Mick and Stevie are already working in with their respective instrumental parts.
Obviously when Stevie gave Fleetwood Mac a mid-tempo song in the '70s Lindsey sometimes felt compelled to add various vocal harmonies to the songs, along with his own lead guitar. That's how "Dreams" works, and similar ideas are explored further in "Sara" (and later they will find their way to "Gypsy").
Now the demo hardly moves me. I'm not one of those fans who grieve over a lost Stevie lyric and I'm certainly not longing after the legendary 16 minute version of the song. It would have just had more stanzas in it, nothing more.
The album version brings me to tears, sends shivers up and down my spine and turns me into a raving fanatic, someone who should not appear in public for a while.
But it doesn't mean that I can't do my "cold and pseudo-rational" analysis of it as well.
I find the album version much more dynamic than whatever the demo offers us. A huge part of that is due to that incredible harmonic background that enters the soundscape the first time after 1:30 (and the second time after 3:30); it is that thing that gives the song an artificial (but very functional) separation between the verses and the choruses.
The harmonies make the song sound like it's distant angelic singing over our heads, a darn complex (but never too esoteric) thing that contrasts with Stevie's raw vocal and the amateurish piano playing, thus giving the song even more charm. One thing that especially makes my heart sink is the inclusion of those descending harmonies from 2:13 onwards; at that point I'm just shivering.
I also think it was very clever to use two unidentical piano tracks in the final product (in different channels, I'm not referring to the lower bass notes but to the bulk of the riff); it gives the rhythmic backing variety and prevents it from becoming too monotonous.

Basically I do not see this thing as anything else than this: if you love Stevie Nicks' lyrics and her songwriting, if you love her delivery and if you have no general problem with the monotone demo and hear all the subtleties in her voice and that is enough to get you by, fine. Then you will probably think that "Sara" the demo is pretty similar to the album version and that's that.
But if you want diversity to the proceedings, are not missing the lost lyrics and want the thing to achieve a lot more musically in its six minutes then the final Tusk album version will most likely take the cake.

And even then there's still something that makes the tune a classic melangé of Buckingham and Nicks; Lindsey's guitar tracks.

I'm constantly amazed at what he plays in there; it sounds similar at first, yes, but there's such an amount of care, emotion and subtlety put into those tracks that I can't help but be as moved by those as I am by Stevie's delivery.
It's pretty much what another Sharon said of Lindsey's and Stevie's musical connection; it's like their personal styles are merging together on paper. In this case the guitar goes where the voice can not go, it reaches out for that same divine emotion along with the voice and drives them both to their best performances.
Even if Stevie did her final vocal take for the song before Lindsey added his guitar overdubs the guitars still amplify Stevie's delivery and message even further. For me it validates my point of the special relationship between Buckingham and Nicks; if there's someone willing to give his/her all for the song then it comes through in their playing and influences the other as well. And there's no way they would give out such performances if the other wasn't there. This is a thing that a Stevie solo record never has; there's never a player in there who would speak to Stevie in such a way.

The whole tone, the atmosphere of the song just changes in the final take when you compare it to the demo.

*steps out of the fanboy/SNL shipper mode for a while*

Even then, while people may claim that the song itself wasn't transformed when Lindsey got his hands on it, it still doesn't prove that it would have been a success in its demo form (or if Jimmy Iovine had called in some players to add mild overdubs to it, for instance).
The thing that was the single chart hit, and is still played in the American radio today, is the Fleetwood Mac version. And my belief is that the demo wouldn't have been successful at the time. Even Stevie herself seemed to feel that it wasn't fit for release as such. Grieve over the missing lyrics if you want to, but the prolonged version would most likely have driven a lot of public away from the track.
And those who claim otherwise seem to me to be nothing more than people who listen to Stevie Nicks' lyrics and performance (and the basic songwriting) first and then to the rest. And there's no way to tell what the general public listens to in a particular song.

Thank you, Sharon, for making me listen to the song again though. It had been too long a while. And I also noticed someone speaking in the left headphone after 5:25 or so. Can anyone hear what is being said there? Are they satanic backwards messages?

[DownOnRodeo]

The demo is fine and all, but the complex acoustic guitar work in the album cut makes the song for me.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by face of glass

Sharon, I don't know if you started this because you want to continue our ridiculous Buckingham vs. Nicks debate or not.

No, not really, lol! I started the thread because Neil just posted the link on the Go Your Own Way message board and I thought it was interesting. (Nancy has just added this new info).

The reason I was surprised is because once I said here on The Ledge that Sara was good to start with (and I agree Lindsey's touch on the finished version turn it from good to magical - I too find the demo version a bit too much, its the Tusk version I fell in love with) and was told (not by you Gaius) that Lindsey recorded the demo for Stevie and that's the reason why it was any good. This new evidence appears to indicate he had nothing to do with the demo, that's all. I wasn't sure whether people generally believed Lindsey to be responsible for the Cleaning Lady version of the song or if I had been misled.

Plus the point about Tom and Annie working on the demo and not being credited I thought would be an interesting one to discuss.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

No, not really, lol! I started the thread because Neil just posted the link on the Go Your Own Way message board and I thought it was interesting. (Nancy has just added this new info).

The reason I was surprised is because once I said here on The Ledge that Sara was good to start with (and I agree Lindsey's touch on the finished version turn it from good to magical - I too find the demo version a bit too much, its the Tusk version I fell in love with) and was told (not by you Gaius) that Lindsey recorded the demo for Stevie and that's the reason why it was any good. This new evidence appears to indicate he had nothing to do with the demo, that's all. I wasn't sure whether people generally believed Lindsey to be responsible for the Cleaning Lady version of the song or if I had been misled.

Plus the point about Tom and Annie working on the demo and not being credited I thought would be an interesting one to discuss.

I had heard this same thing, Sharon, and I actually e-mailed Anne McLoone to ask her about it. I told her there was debate about who appeared/worked on the demo and she and Tom replied with the above, which I posted with their permission.

They obviously know what they're talking about - why shouldn't we believe they're correct? As professional musicians, I'm sure they're aware that demos can change, but they remain confident the track is the same one. Makes sense to me - why would Lindsey waste time adding a vocal or other work to a demo instead of just putting it on a final track? Certainly I'd take their information over any fan's speculation.

The lack of crediting IS odd. I wonder if they've tried to contact anyone about it?

P.S. Gaius, stop being so paranoid!

[strandinthewind]

I first saw the demo a few years ago - maybe 1998 - on Kazza. I am unsure if it was available before then - but it probably was via boot trading.

I think the demo is very cool because it has extra lyrics that we had all heard about but had never heard in that clear of a form until the Cleaning Lady demo. came out. This clarity is better on the new reissue. I thought it was cool to know finally what Stevie was saying when she says these things in the fade out lyrics of the album cut. I spent many a night trying to decipher them - I always thought "could you speak a little louder" was "can you stand to live without her" - the latter makes MUCH more sense to me LOL - but the former sounds cool and is somewhat ascerbic to me when she says it pointedly on the demo.

In the end, I am thrilled we have BOTH

Also - HOORAY for Nancy for getting this for us!!!!

Also Also Nancy - your banner is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

I had heard this same thing, Sharon, and I actually e-mailed Anne McLoone to ask her about it. I told her there was debate about who appeared/worked on the demo and she and Tom replied with the above, which I posted with their permission.

They obviously know what they're talking about - why shouldn't we believe they're correct? As professional musicians, I'm sure they're aware that demos can change, but they remain confident the track is the same one. Makes sense to me - why would Lindsey waste time adding a vocal or other work to a demo instead of just putting it on a final track? Certainly I'd take their information over any fan's speculation.

The lack of crediting IS odd. I wonder if they've tried to contact anyone about it?

P.S. Gaius, stop being so paranoid!

ITA
And thanks Nancy for the new info! I couldn't help but be surprised after being told in no uncertain terms Lindsey recorded the demo.

I have to say I love the fact that people like Rick Vito and Tom Moncrieff are commenting on the songs alongside fans on your site. It's very cool and it's great to read everyone's interpretations

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

P.S. Gaius, stop being so paranoid!

My self-esteem is dependent on Lindsey Buckingham's general appreciation. Any attempt to boost Stevie Nicks up hurts my everything.
I take "Sara" to such a level anyway, but as Joe proved, "brevity is the soul of wit".
Your avatar is another thing that's making me paranoid.
If you're speaking of my supposed backwards messages here; it's not like FM have completely avoided accusations of satanism coming their way; even one of those Christian anti-rock books published here in Finland speaks of "Stevie Nicks dedicating entire Fleetwood Mac concerts to the witches of the world".

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

I have to say I love the fact that people like Rick Vito and Tom Moncrieff are commenting on the songs alongside fans on your site. It's very cool and it's great to read everyone's interpretations

Thanks! It blows my mind, that's for sure!

Originally Posted by faceofglass

Your avatar is another thing that's making me paranoid.
If you're speaking of my supposed backwards messages here; it's not like FM have completely avoided accusations of satanism coming their way; even one of those Christian anti-rock books published here in Finland speaks of "Stevie Nicks dedicating entire Fleetwood Mac concerts to the witches of the world."

lol! Your quickness at picking up my anti-Gaius message is astonishing. Truly you are a brilliant man.

P.S. I saw your post elsewhere about my "disturbing" avatar and I assure you, I am not trying to make a "statement." I just though it would be funny, and I enjoy looking at Lindsey's butt. At any rate it will be gone on the 5th, so you will not have to look at it much longer.

[ajmccarrell]

If you want to hear some of what Moncrieff and McLoone have worked on lately, check out www.myspace.com/sinai48