"THROWN DOWN" Not that great...

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by tommer
do you consider this some kind of a seal of approval?

No, Tommer, I think you misunderstood. Or I wasn't clear. I was referring to my belief that if Lindsey had his way, he might not be doing this thing with Fleetwood Mac. If his solo career had taken off, he probably would not be doing this. In fact, about a year ago he told the Los Angeles Times that he would do the Fleetwood Mac album because he could not get his released as a solo album. There had been in fact a lot of talk about doing a solo tour, some of which came from him.

In my heart, I don't believe he truly wants to do this. But I am speculating of course.

while she always needed a strong producer at her side, he always needed her to gather a crowd of more than 5 people.

I won't disagree with either of those points. Though, I'd say he might get an audience of seven. You left out Seteca and Wondergirl.

[Sorcerer386]

Quite often some folks here have made the point that Stevie has sold far more records as a solo artist than Lindsey, that hers have gone gold and platinum and "Out of the Cradle" barely sold. The implication being that there's a correlation between big sales and big talent.

If this wasn't directed at my comment, then disregard it, but considering it's proximity to my post, I am assuming that it is. I never made any comparison to Stevie's sales versus Lindsey's sales. I was simply making a comment that seemingly some people think Stevie is a no talent waste of space. As for the boy band comparison, boy bands and pop acts sell quick then disappear after a while unless they change their content, image, etc. Justin Timberlake, J-Lo, and many other pop acts have dropped what they were doing because it stopped selling, and have moved on to different styles of music. If they didn't, their albums wouldn't be selling I don't think. I would consider an artist VERY talented to have the lasting power Stevie Nicks has had. Yes, acts have sold more than her, but over 20 years she's never had a non-gold solo album, and regardless of what anyone says, there's a lot to be said about that. She never really changed, the only thing that did change was the transition to synth rock, which happened BECAUSE that's what rock and roll had become. It was either that, punk, or metal. I don't have time to go on more because it's Christmas for me and time to eat. I just want to clarify that there was NO Stevie vs. Lindsey comparison. Not only do I KNOW better than to do that here, but I wouldn't do it anyway because I don't care...

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
It's entirely possible that he is enjoying working with Stevie, and I would expect so. But let's not forget that she was the only Fleetwood Mac member who wasn't invited to help record GOS songs. So that tells you something.

Stevie was asked to write a song for the soundtrack to 'Twister'... it was HER choice to have Lindsey produce and sing on it, and HIS choice to do so.

"Twisted" was released as a promo single, but received absolutely no hype from the record company, so I don't think that either Stevie or Lindsey did this project in order to sell copies.
They've said that they wanted to patch things up, and to see if they could work together again.

As for Stevie not appearing on any of the 'Gift Of Screws' demos... Mick was there because he and Lindsey had worked thru their differences, and Lindsey decided he wanted to have a live drum sound on the songs... John came aboard because Mick suggested him when Lindsey was looking for a bassist... and Christine's services were then requested when LB wanted her vocals on (as far as I know) only one particular track.
To call Stevie as well, automatically makes it a Fleetwood Mac thing... which is exactly what they did.
Why bother releasing an album that has every member of that particular lineup on it, and not just do a legitimate Fleetwood Mac reunion?

And really, if Lindsey was just piggy-backing on Stevie's success to sell albums, then I'd think he'd have rather used her on his solo album.
We all know that many of Stevie's die-hard fans would buy it just because of her appearance... and anyone looking for some shred of a Fleetwood Mac reunion, would buy it because of Mick, John, and Christine's scattered appearances throughout.

Meanwhile, the album sells more copies, and gets more hype... and Lindsey would be the one to get any of the accolades, because HIS name is the only one on the album cover.
He wouldn't have to share the spotlight or the credit with anyone, and any involvement with Stevie would have been kept to a minimum.
He wouldn't have even had to work on any of her songs!
So I think it's more than just that.

It's understandable that Lindsey would fold his album into a Fleetwood Mac project, in order to get his music to a larger audience, and I have no problems with that. After all, who would want to toil away in a studio for years on end, only to have relatively few people ever hear the fruits of your labours?

But if he doesn't have more integrity than to only work with Stevie in order to sell more albums, then he isn't deserving of half of the praise that his most loyal fans give him.

Personally, I give him more credit than that, and I feel he legitimately wants to work with Stevie, and is actually enjoying doing so.
And I think Stevie would be wise enough to know whether or not her artistic input was really desired or if it was just a calculated move to sell albums.

That's my two cents.


Johnny Stew

[CarneVaca]

Johnny, all I can say is, Go back and read his interview from the LA Times about a year ago. It kind of says it all. You call it reaching a wider audience, I call it sales. Same thing.

[Phil]

In relation to Lindsey's decision to forego his solo album in favour of a band project, I think the impetus for this shift was originally due to commercial concerns. In fact, he may have had very little choice in the matter if some of the comments on this board about record company intervention are accurate. However, he has stated that once he resumed working with the various band members on his solo project, he realised that he had actually missed this group of musicians and I believe him to be genuine. Sacrificing his solo collection for a new Mac album may have not been his initial preference, but I imagine once he became immersed in these new recordings he realised that this would pan out to be a worthwhile experience.

He also feels strongly about revisiting the legacy of Fleetwood Mac in order to restore a certain dignity to this incarnation of the band. I'm sure he views this album as their swansong and so leaving a lasting impression in terms of integrity, innovation and quality would figure heavily in his decision.

With regard to Stevie not being part of the GOS sessions, I do recall a rumour in 1995 that he and Stevie had actually recorded a duet for the album. Whether this eventuated into "Twisted" or not, I can't be sure but I'm certain she would have been welcome. Of course, as already mentioned, Stevie is not a musician and so her input would be limited in any case. Let's also not forget that she was probably the only member not waiting by the phone looking for the next job!

[David]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
In his Behind The Music, Lindsey said that he has "always" liked Stevie's lyrics, but he... as we all know so well... admitted that he didn't always want to work on making them even better.

I think everyone in Fleetwood Mac really admired Stevie for her very unusual & powerful voice.

[Les]

Originally posted by Phil
However, he has stated that once he resumed working with the various band members on his solo project, he realised that he had actually missed this group of musicians and I believe him to be genuine. Sacrificing his solo collection for a new Mac album may have not been his initial preference, but I imagine once he became immersed in these new recordings he realised that this would pan out to be a worthwhile experience.

I agree with you Phil. I think that's spot on.

The last statement Lindsey made to the press that was anything like a full length interview was to Rolling Stone in January, 2001. I found that interview pretty significant in demonstrating Lindsey’s attitude about solo vs. FM in his present state of mind, as opposed to how he may have felt about the issue with the residual memories of 87 as his most recent experience working with FM in the studio.

He seemed very open about being involved with the band again as long as the others in the band were open to being involved thoroughly themselves. One can view his comments as being entirely about the sales, but I personally don't. Some may find this too sentimental, but I think there is much to be said for all of them having smoothed out past personal differences and I think there's more to it, along the lines again of what Phil said:

He also feels strongly about revisiting the legacy of Fleetwood Mac in order to restore a certain dignity to this incarnation of the band. I'm sure he views this album as their swansong and so leaving a lasting impression in terms of integrity, innovation and quality would figure heavily in his decision.

[Johnny Stew]

I get a bit verbose sometimes, so thankfully Phil and Les both did a much more succinct job of expressing the point I was trying to get across.

I have no doubt that doing another Fleetwood Mac album wasn't Lindsey's first choice... and I also have no delusions that the chance to sell more albums didn't weigh in his decision somewhere.
I just feel that it wasn't entirely about sales, or money.

The affection with which they seem to regard each other now, seems genuine to me, so I don't imagine the reluctance that Lindsey had about working with Fleetwood Mac in 1986/1987 exists anymore.

He had his frustrations in the past, with being a part of a band... and things definitely got worse by 'Tango,' when the other members were basically just breezing in to do their parts, and then leaving again.
But as Lindsey himself has said, with those differences ironed out, there really isn't any reason for them to not work together.

So whatever additional motivations there may have been at the outset, I honestly feel that his heart is 100% in this project... including Stevie's songs.



Johnny Stew

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I won't disagree with either of those points. Though, I'd say he might get an audience of seven. You left out Seteca and Wondergirl.

If Lindsey were doing a concert in the middle of shark infested waters on a raft, I'd be RIGHT there!!! LMAO!! That's how much I love this man!! Thank you for including seteca and I, CV!!

I may need to go ahead and buy some smelling salts now, for when they come to Dallas...I will be in an awesome stupor when the concert is over and for probably many days after....

tommer, the reason LB's solo album was rejected by the record company is because...THEY SUCK! They only want to put out crap and then expect us to buy it. I say to them...BITE ME!!

OOTC coming out in 1992 (the HEIGHT of grunge/Nirvana) was bad timing. I truly believe if it came out this year, it would sell better, because the return of the singer/songwriter is the IN thing right now...and by cracky, if John Mayer doesn't win a Grammy, HEADS WILL ROLL!!!!!!

[seteca]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I won't disagree with either of those points. Though, I'd say he might get an audience of seven. You left out Seteca and Wondergirl...

Only 7 people including me and Christy in an audience in front of Lindsey Buckingham.....I think I would force Neale Heywood (and his Strat) off the stage, grab my Model One and join Lindsey for a I'm So Afraid "duo solo"....!!!

I'm not even going to go into what I think Christy will try to do....!!

On a more serious note.....

Originally posted by Phil
He also feels strongly about revisiting the legacy of Fleetwood Mac in order to restore a certain dignity to this incarnation of the band. I'm sure he views this album as their swansong and so leaving a lasting impression in terms of integrity, innovation and quality would figure heavily in his decision.

I strongly agree with this. Most people (i.e not fans) think (if anything at all) of Fleetwood Mac as a band who put out a fantastic album in the late 70s called "Rumours" and then went downhill from there and are lucky that they haven't all died either by their use of drugs or at eachother's hands....
The right publicity this year, coupled with a very strong album and tour, would mean that the members of Fleetwood Mac could say goodbye (no pun intended) with their heads held high in the faces of ALL the music-listening public, and not just their diehard fans like us.

And also, one last point...there are several posts from various people regarding "Gift Of Screws", and I must say IMO CarneVaca has it spot on....the album was aborted as a solo project because of (and you can disguise the word in whatever form you like but ultimately it comes down to one thing)........SALES (or predicted lack of, rather). It's the job of the people at the record company to decide whether or not it will SELL. That is what they do for a living. Doesn't matter whether they sat down, listened to the album and THEY thought that it was the greatest pieces of music they have ever heard, or if they thought it sounded like a toilet flushing...the FACT is that the final verdict was "we predict that, given the currrent state of the general music buying public, this is not going to, under the name "Lindsey Buckingham" at least, sell the amount we would like it to." Which totally SUCKS for us LB fans, but such is life, and I can respect and understand (although with gritted teeth! ) their decision.

[Phil]

seteca, I concede your point about sales and yes I too lament the fact that Lindsey doesn't have the opportunity to release the album he slaved over for so many years. However, another way of looking at it is that if the album does indeed get released as a double set, then effectively we will have what amounts to an album's worth of material from each of Lindsey and Stevie.

I really don't think that Lindsey has had to compromise his ideals or any of his songs in order to release it under the Fleetwood Mac banner. As we know, Mick and John were essentially his backing band for the GOS sessions and any backing vocals Stevie may have added could only be viewed as an enhancement. So at the end of the day, the only real problem is that the release date became somewhat protracted. Hey but we know it'll be worth the wait.

[stefan]

And what makes all of you think, this will be the last FM album? LB has abandoned his solo plans. The perspective for his solo projects won't change- this will be the same in the future than it was 1997 or today. Critical acclaimation but no megaseller. Does this mean you think he retires at the age of 53 even if the FM album and tour was succesful...?

As far as they stay healthy I don't see that this is inevitably the last project. I think these people will produce and perform music for their entire liftime. Except of Stevie they don`t have the needed recognition and musical platform outside FM. So I certainly don't believe in new albums every 2 years. But I also don't see why they all should officially retire. Any opinions?

[blinker12]

I just wanted to jump in and address the original subject of this post... the quality of "Thrown Down."

I personally like the track a lot. No, it's not one of the best songs Stevie's ever written (the lyrics are weak), and it's not the greatest arranging job Lindsey's ever done. In other words: it's no "Silver Springs" or "Sara."

But there are a lot of things to like about it. Both Lindsey and Stevie sing energetically (esp. Lindsey), the guitar playing is exemplary, the background vocals catchy.

It sounds a heck of a lot fresher than anything the Eagles or the Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney could come up with at this point in their careers, don't you think?

No, it doesn't sound like a "hit," but a) we don't have any real evidence that it'll be the first single and b) who cares? Good songs rarely make the charts anymore.

Even if you don't like the song much, remember: this doesn't necessarily represent the best of the new album just because it's been leaked first. There are still 22 others you haven't heard (at least in their final form)!

[chiliD]

So I certainly don't believe in new albums every 2 years. But I also don't see why they all should officially retire.

Ok, maybe my age is showing, but both The Beatles & Elton John used to release two album PER YEAR. So an album every 2 years is FOUR TIMES as long to record an album. Fleetwood Mac used to release an album per year, and two in 1973...plus an album in 1975, 1977, 1979...every two years. It CAN be done...even if Lindsey Buckingham IS in the band!

[Sugar]

Only seven people at a Lindsey solo concert??? Not the last time I went to one!

Oh that's right! That was the Mick Fleetwood's Zoo solo concert I went too!