Please Die Fighting for My Rights - Page 2

gldstwmn · #16 08-12-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starling

Honestly. Does that *even* make sense? Since when is God about vengeance? What kind of 'loving' God is this? Not my kind...

They are loons. It probably comes from years of inbreeding.

gldstwmn · #17 08-12-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

The church itself has the right to do what they did, in my opinion.

Of course they did. But it doesn't make it any less despicable.

SortaSavageLike · #18 08-12-2007, 12:32 PM

Fred Phelps, or someone in his family, is going to die a brutal, unimaginable death sometime in the next five years. And who ever does it is going to become a national hero overnight.

gldstwmn · #19 08-12-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

He's too happy-go-lucky for me. Tickle the ears a little bit and make you feel warm and fuzzy. In terms of the ministry, I dont believe I've ever once see him preach against sinful nature.

I personally believe you cant go thru this life, and do whatever the f*ck you want, and expect to have the open-armed God waiting at the end of it for you. I believe he loves us unconditionally, yes, but I dont believe the God of the universe will condone your murdering, thievery, raping, lust for money, etc. That being said, I think we can experience a change of heart and turn from those things and start over. What I'm saying is, I dont think you can expect eternal bliss if you happen to die the same time you're slitting someone's throat.

But do you think Osteen is propagating that? I don't really get that from him. What I get from him is that if you follow a certain path then you will be rich, including materially. Underscore materially. I do believe you can bring any request to the Universe (or God, whichever works for you). It doesn't necessarily mean it will be honored. Where we find ourselves often has to do with where we intend to be. Now, I could write a whole dissertation on that last sentence.

Anyway, it's not like I've spent a whole lot of time studying Osteen. He's not my cup of tea.

**mylittledemon** · #20 08-12-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starling

Honestly. Does that *even* make sense? Since when is God about vengeance? What kind of 'loving' God is this? Not my kind...

Do you even understand God, or believe in one? I mean...take someone like Hitler. The man was responsible for the deaths of millions of people...do you believe that there isnt vengeance for all those people he killed? All those people that couldnt stop him? All the children he killed? I think God is as much a God of vengeance as he is a God of love. They are a balance, one in the other.

If God was a merely a God ONLY of love...with no checks and balances...then what kind of "perfect" God would he be? Frankly...I want a God...to believe in one that does give recompense. For me to believe otherwise would be against my own conscience.

**mylittledemon** · #21 08-12-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

But do you think Osteen is propagating that? I don't really get that from him. What I get from him is that if you follow a certain path then you will be rich, including materially. Underscore materially. I do believe you can bring any request to the Universe (or God, whichever works for you). It doesn't necessarily mean it will be honored. Where we find ourselves often has to do with where we intend to be. Now, I could write a whole dissertation on that last sentence.

Anyway, it's not like I've spent a whole lot of time studying Olsteen. He's not my cup of tea.

I believe that God can bless you financially. But I dont believe its proper to DESIRE it. In my own life, I would love to have tons of money. I would love to win the lottery so I could provide a better life for my family and even my friends. Who wouldnt? But I dont lust after money, and my life doesnt revolve around my work and my paycheck. Does that make sense?

It seems to me that Osteen preaches primarily on prosperity only. And you know what? Kudos to him for finding his niche. It just seems to me that were I in his position, my conviction wouldnt reward me .

carrie721 · #22 08-12-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

Do you even understand God, or believe in one? I mean...take someone like Hitler. The man was responsible for the deaths of millions of people...do you believe that there isnt vengeance for all those people he killed? All those people that couldnt stop him? All the children he killed? I think God is as much a God of vengeance as he is a God of love. They are a balance, one in the other.

If God was a merely a God ONLY of love...with no checks and balances...then what kind of "perfect" God would he be? Frankly...I want a God...to believe in one that does give recompense. For me to believe otherwise would be against my own conscience.

are you saying, then, that it's possible that the bridge falling is an act of vengeance? or that the towers falling on 9/11? or the tsunami? or any tragedy? that's absurd.

**mylittledemon** · #23 08-12-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721

are you saying, then, that it's possible that the bridge falling is an act of vengeance? or that the towers falling on 9/11? or the tsunami? or any tragedy? that's absurd.

I'm referring more about the reprecussions after your life. In no way was I talking about "physical" or karmic sufferings in this life. I think we do bring thing upon us...reaping what we sow to a certain extent. But please dont try to pigeonhole me into that can of nuts that say 9/11 happened because of homosexual sin, or other such things. I wouldnt presume to make such statements.

carrie721 · #24 08-12-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

I'm referring more about the reprecussions after your life. In no way was I talking about "physical" or karmic sufferings in this life. I think we do bring thing upon us...reaping what we sow to a certain extent. But please dont try to pigeonhole me into that can of nuts that say 9/11 happened because of homosexual sin, or other such things. I wouldnt presume to make such statements.

i'm not pigeonholing you, i was asking for clarification. because that's what it sounded like you were saying ... to me anyway.

i still think the idea of a vengeful god - whether that vengeance is exacted before or after death - is absurd, though.

**mylittledemon** · #25 08-12-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721

i'm not pigeonholing you, i was asking for clarification. because that's what it sounded like you were saying ... to me anyway.

i still think the idea of a vengeful god - whether that vengeance is exacted before or after death - is absurd, though.

I believe that in order for God to be true, he would have to be balanced. I hate to bring up the Hitler example...but I believe we all can agree the man was the devil. I cannot, and could not believe that an open-armed welcoming, loving God was waiting for Adolf after he shot himself. I believe there is vengeance and "payback" for the atrocities he chose to commit in this life. Hitler made those choices...therefore the "vengeance" i'm referring to was brought upon himself. He chose it for himself, not God.

If a man broke into your home, and murdered your family...and then shot himself...do you believe that man would be welcomed into "heaven"?

carrie721 · #26 08-12-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

I believe that in order for God to be true, he would have to be balanced. I hate to bring up the Hitler example...but I believe we all can agree the man was the devil. I cannot, and could not believe that an open-armed welcoming, loving God was waiting for Adolf after he shot himself. I believe there is vengeance and "payback" for the atrocities he chose to commit in this life. Hitler made those choices...therefore the "vengeance" i'm referring to was brought upon himself. He chose it for himself, not God.

If a man broke into your home, and murdered your family...and then shot himself...do you believe that man would be welcomed into "heaven"?

well, i don't really believe in the heaven/hell paradigm. i don't see "love" as one side of a love/hate equation ... it's just love. so i don't see a god who is purely about love as an unbalanced god.

**mylittledemon** · #27 08-12-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721

well, i don't really believe in the heaven/hell paradigm. i don't see "love" as one side of a love/hate equation ... it's just love. so i don't see a god who is purely about love as an unbalanced god.

Well you sly-ly and stylishly avoided the question. Fair enough. I personally couldnt go thru my life believing that. I believe God loves us all, unconditionally as a parent would. He doesnt love the things that we do, however. That's why we have choices. We were given the free will to make our own choices, so we arent forced into a coersed love with God.

carrie721 · #28 08-12-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

Well you sly-ly and stylishly avoided the question. Fair enough. I personally couldnt go thru my life believing that. I believe God loves us all, unconditionally as a parent would. He doesnt love the things that we do, however. That's why we have choices. We were given the free will to make our own choices, so we arent forced into a coersed love with God.

i didn't avoid the question. i can't answer it because it presumes that i share a belief in heaven & hell, and i don't

what do you mean by "we aren't forced into a coerced love with god"?

**mylittledemon** · #29 08-12-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrie721

i didn't avoid the question. i can't answer it because it presumes that i share a belief in heaven & hell, and i don't

what do you mean by "we aren't forced into a coerced love with god"?

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks. Again, that's something I that would go against my very being to believe. This argument would go on forever, but without taking a stand on something we'll just go round in circles. Therefore we must end it...but it was fun!

Coersion...You can choose to love God, or not love him. To acknowledge his existence, or to ignore it. That is the right and privilege of this life. He loves us regardless, I believe that. If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance (going back full circle to what we talked about earlier).

carrie721 · #30 08-12-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks. Again, that's something I that would go against my very being to believe. This argument would go on forever, but without taking a stand on something we'll just go round in circles. Therefore we must end it...but it was fun!

not necessarily

heaven & hell isn't the only afterlife option.

Quote:

Coersion...You can choose to love God, or not love him. To acknowledge his existence, or to ignore it. That is the right and privilege of this life. He loves us regardless, I believe that. If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance (going back full circle to what we talked about earlier).

oic. i didn't see the relevance to the discussion before ... i see how you're relating it now.