The View - Rosie Vs Elizabeth

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Kelly

. . . America seems to have a problem with loud, outspoken women. Most of the male newscasters are saying they cannot wait until she "shuts up" and "goes away" . . . .

I agree. Look at Sean Hannity - he is a fat, loud bully. Yet, it is acceptable amongst the right for him to be such.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

. . .
But honestly, I have a really hard time with this "support our troops" thing. I cringe every time I see one of those yellow ribbons. The extreme perspective I've seen in a few places online says that we should not support our troops as Germany supported theirs during WWII. From what I can see, the comparison is ludicrous, but I see the point that's trying to be made. Why should I support them if they're doing something I highly disapprove of? I realize it isn't simple for them--the alternative is jail time--but I still don't feel like I'm obligated to support an invasion of a country. I don't see how they're exempt from responsibility because they're obeying orders. That might or might not hold up in a court of law, since they're still the ones who committed the crimes . . . .

I think the general thought is that the leaders like W are the bad parties and the soldiers are trying to make good out of a horrible situation.

In other words, they are the bright lights in the darkness of this administration. Other than a few bad apples here and there, the soldiers themselves are trying to make Iraq safer and better despite the bogus reason for them being there. I think that is how many people make the distinction you are having difficulty with. I personally feel this way, but I get that others may not.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I understand what Rosie was saying, and I think paleshadow explained it well. The Iraqis would view the soldiers as terrorists. I think she was careful not to say that she views the soldiers as terrorists.

But honestly, I have a really hard time with this "support our troops" thing. I cringe every time I see one of those yellow ribbons. The extreme perspective I've seen in a few places online says that we should not support our troops as Germany supported theirs during WWII. From what I can see, the comparison is ludicrous, but I see the point that's trying to be made. Why should I support them if they're doing something I highly disapprove of? I realize it isn't simple for them--the alternative is jail time--but I still don't feel like I'm obligated to support an invasion of a country. I don't see how they're exempt from responsibility because they're obeying orders. That might or might not hold up in a court of law, since they're still the ones who committed the crimes.

You're not exactly obligated. If you don't agree, you don't agree.

I agree with Jason on this. I have a friend who is right now serving in Afghanistan. Does he agree with the reasons he was being sent there for? No. Does he like being sent there? No. Does he have any other choice? No. He became a soldier so he could one day protect the very country that he was born and raised in, but that's not exactly what's going on here. Does he try to make the best out of a bad situation? Yeah. He kind of has to. Do I pray that he makes it home safe and sound? Hell yes. So, I support the troops. Nobody deserves to die for reasons they don't stand for and I hope that everybody gets out of it in tact, which sadly is not the case. I sympathize with everyone that is injured or has even died and I sympathize with their families.

I don't think it's fair to say that because they are there carrying out their duties and thus contributing to the accomplishment of the desire of TPTB makes it the same as being a terrorist. Terrorists all believe in the same cause, they stand for what they believe in and act accordingly. Most of the soldiers out there don't agree with why they were sent out there. If anything, Bush is the terrorist here. Only he would never go to Iraq and get the deed done himself.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by danax6

You're not exactly obligated. If you don't agree, you don't agree.

I agree with Jason on this. I have a friend who is right now serving in Afghanistan. Does he agree with the reasons he was being sent there for? No. Does he like being sent there? No. Does he have any other choice? No. He became a soldier so he could one day protect the very country that he was born and raised in, but that's not exactly what's going on here. Does he try to make the best out of a bad situation? Yeah. He kind of has to. Do I pray that he makes it home safe and sound? Hell yes. So, I support the troops. Nobody deserves to die for reasons they don't stand for and I hope that everybody gets out of it in tact, which sadly is not the case. I sympathize with everyone that is injured or has even died and I sympathize with their families.

I don't think it's fair to say that because they are there carrying out their duties and thus contributing to the accomplishment of the desire of TPTB makes it the same as being a terrorist. Terrorists all believe in the same cause, they stand for what they believe in and act accordingly. Most of the soldiers out there don't agree with why they were sent out there. If anything, Bush is the terrorist here. Only he would never go to Iraq and get the deed done himself.

By saying that I don't support them, I don't want to imply that I think they should get killed over there, but I guess I can't avoid making that insinuation if I say I don't support them. But no, I don't intend to sound that heartless and I don't want them to die, obviously.

I guess I just don't understand why they're going through with it if they don't believe in it. What if masses of people refused to serve because the war was started under false pretenses, etc? I know that it's easy for me to sit here and say all this, though.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

By saying that I don't support them, I don't want to imply that I think they should get killed over there, but I guess I can't avoid making that insinuation if I say I don't support them. But no, I don't intend to sound that heartless and I don't want them to die, obviously.

I guess I just don't understand why they're going through with it if they don't believe in it. What if masses of people refused to serve because the war was started under false pretenses, etc? I know that it's easy for me to sit here and say all this, though.

You have a good point though

I guess for me, the premise of removing SH in some fashion was valid - though I vehemently disagree with how it went down. Then, in the aftermath that has ensued, I think it is entirely possible for someone to join the military today with the altruistic thought that they will be part of making Iraq better and, therefore, the world safer. So, to me, while W's war is bogus, this new soldier's intentions are true and worthy of my support.

Finally, I did not take your comments to mean that you wished harm on the troops

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by danax6

I agree with Jason on this. .

Originally Posted by danax6

I have a friend who is right now serving in Afghanistan. Does he agree with the reasons he was being sent there for?

Wow - most people were on board with the thought that the Al-Q funded and lead Taliban should have been removed for supporting, aiding, and abetting OBL. I think most just disagree with Iraq.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

By saying that I don't support them, I don't want to imply that I think they should get killed over there, but I guess I can't avoid making that insinuation if I say I don't support them. But no, I don't intend to sound that heartless and I don't want them to die, obviously.

I guess I just don't understand why they're going through with it if they don't believe in it. What if masses of people refused to serve because the war was started under false pretenses, etc? I know that it's easy for me to sit here and say all this, though.

I totally get where you're coming from, I didn't think you would wish harm on anyone. It's just for me the one distinction is the fact that they are not there voluntarily.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by danax6

I don't think it's fair to say that because they are there carrying out their duties and thus contributing to the accomplishment of the desire of TPTB makes it the same as being a terrorist. Terrorists all believe in the same cause, they stand for what they believe in and act accordingly. Most of the soldiers out there don't agree with why they were sent out there. If anything, Bush is the terrorist here. Only he would never go to Iraq and get the deed done himself.

The discussion was that Rosie meant it was America who the Iraqis probably viewed as the terrorists. While we as Americans know that many soldiers do not support the war, I'm sure the Iraqis who consider America as terrorists, don't distinguish between the people who sent troops there, and the troops who are there.

I don't necessarily think terrorists all believe in the same cause. I think there are some people who align themselves with terrorists for financial gain, and couldn't care less about the cause.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I was shocked also.

Wow. Most people were on board with the thought that the Al-Q funded and lead Taliban should have been removed for supporting, aiding, and abetting OBL. I think most just disagree with Iraq.

Yes, that was a valid reason, but that's no longer really the case. He's part of the 'let's rebuild the country' group that got sent out there.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by paleshadow

The discussion was that Rosie meant it was America who the Iraqis probably viewed as the terrorists. While we as Americans know that many soldiers do not support the war, I'm sure the Iraqis who consider America as terrorists, don't distinguish between the people who sent troops there, and the troops who are there.

Yes, I realize that, I was merely responding to this:

Well, maybe, but say you identify a group as terrorists and they have hired people to cary out their wishes, wouldn't that make those individuals terrorists? Are individuals who contribute to the accomplishment of the desire of terrorists not also terrorists?

I don't necessarily think terrorists all believe in the same cause. I think there are some people who align themselves with terrorists for financial gain, and couldn't care less about the cause.

Still, operative words are willingly and voluntarily.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by danax6

Still, operative words are willingly and voluntarily.

So if Osama hired someone to build a bomb that was later used to blow up a school, the bomb builder would only be a terrorist if he believed in the cause? I would dissagree with that.

Also, there are many men and women who willingly and voluntarily enlisted after the war began, so according to that rational they could fit into your description of terrorists. I'm not saying you are calling soldiers terrorists, only that what Rosie said, while not suggesting she believes we are terrorists, would have to include the soldiers. To say that she didn't mean them, would be to say that the Iraqis don't think they are either.

[BlackWidow]

Guns & bombs do not kill - People do!

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by BlackWidow

Guns & bombs do not kill - People do!

I don't think anyone is debating that.

[CelticGypsy]

Originally Posted by Josh2003

Even more humorous was how Alicia Silverstone, who was the guest right after that exchange, snubbed Elisabeth. Watch:

I love it!!!! LOL I missed it yesterday but saw the video all over the news last night. Love Rosie, and love that she isn't afraid to speak up about the issues. Elisabeth has no idea what she says half the time. I wish she was the one leaving the show. Rosie and Joy makes the show work for me.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by CelticGypsy

I love it!!!! LOL I missed it yesterday but saw the video all over the news last night. Love Rosie, and love that she isn't afraid to speak up about the issues. Elisabeth has no idea what she says half the time. I wish she was the one leaving the show. Rosie and Joy makes the show work for me.

They want to keep Elizabeth because she is always the dissenting opinion. I cannot stand her....she comes across like a complete moron. When she said she felt her daughter was "safer here because Bush attacked Iraq", I literally started yelling at my tv. She just has no understanding that her daughter is probably less safe now, because all the invasion accomplished was having another country full of people hate us. Dumb, dumb twit.