Executed man's last request honored -- pizza for homeless

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

wow. i really am shocked to read that.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

It's a real shame that they didn't write about the pain he caused the officer's family he killed in an armed robbery. It's a shame the victims got one line when pizza-boy got a full story. It's a shame they didn't go into his full police report and see how much pain he caused society. I say good riddance.

Thanks for pointing that out. I noticed the article didn't say anything about that. How much of a sacrafice or selflessness is it to donate Pizza's that you aren't paying for to homeless people, regardless on where you stand on the issue of capital punishment.

[sparky]

I suppose it is a cute story and all,
but, the guy committed armed robbery and killed a cop.
The only problem I have with his death is the timing.
Too bad someone didn't take him out at the scene and just simplify the whole process.

It's cool that hungry people got fed though.

[amber]

^^^

Your efficient tendencies are admirable, they kind of speak to me. Feed some homeless people, kill some criminals before they drain taxpayer dollars.
But sort of joking but not really aside...

This thread is interesting because I agree with everyone. Wait, I mean, this thread is interesting AND I agree with everyone. Immigration and Death Penalty are my two non-extremely-liberal exceptions to my extremely liberal mindset. I decided awhile back not to be for death penalty, because it easily isn't fair, and because the U.S. justice and other systems are very flawed. It was hard, though, and I still fight it.

But I think there is something between the two extremes. There just isn't much place for it in our society, America.

I just read an article about Denmark (National Geographic) and they have hardly any crime, and also a huge social net. Social net meaning that there will never be huge discrepancies between rich and poor, everyone is provided for. Their country runs smoothly, placidly, perfectly, on time, etc. Also in other readings of mine, I came across the factoid that in Japan, you can totally leave your bike on the streets and it won't get stolen. And this concept basically extends to the crime rate in general. I think there are other European countries with similar stories. Like, don't cops in England not have guns, or something? I remember reading that, not sure if it is true.

Every alive thing on the planet fights for resources, humans always have, and so does everything else. So when people don't have resources, they will get them however they can. Be it land, money, food, mates, copper beads, water - whatever.

So, for instance, say a particular race of people have been denied resources for hundreds of years, say they were just imported to work, and looked down on b/c of their skin color only. Naturally, they will turn to whatever means they can to survive, and that cycle feeds on itself. And America has a particularly nasty gap between haves and have nots. And a particularly bigoted past and present. Our country is supposed to be so enlightened, and we have so many resources, natural and human - but the resources are allotted so divergently, and so colored by prejudice at every moment, ethnic and financial. From then until now.
And our culture supports that - it's a consumer culture who's whole point is that achievement is largely based on how much you have. Ironically, we would never be so wealthy without slave labor. Be it real slaves from the past, or cheap immigrant labor we have now. Capitalism succeeds when people have resources and cheap labor. It's intrinsic to the concept. That is what Capitalism IS.

So, what do we expect? We tell people they are "something" if they have stuff, but actually a small percentage really have the opportunity to have stuff. And not just regular stuff. Tons of stuff is the ideal. Like, millionaires. Big houses. Excess. We celebrate that culturewide as an achievement. Something to aspire to. When really, like 1% of the population owns 95% of stuff. If we present that as a cultural ideal, we can hardly be suprised at the mindset of people who choose criminal ways to achieve that ideal. Far beyond necessary survival basics - cause America doesn't celebrate necessary survival basics. It's not good enough. Other people have better stuff, and therefore are better. It's what we advertise, it's what we think. It's the American dream. It couldn't possibly be enough to have adequate food and shelter, and a full if humble life. It's funny that with all that, Americans are the most unhappy population. Think about that. We have the most, but are least happy, and have hella crime. A country with this much should be ashamed of its crime rate, and its educational level. There's people in Africa who have to walk 3 miles to get water for the day and who's parents have died from AIDS that are happier and more satisfied than we are. lol.

Doesn't mean it's right, just means it is culturally and politically fostered. And has been for hundreds of years. It's basically the foundation of this country. Besides all the other lofty conceptual thoughts of the foundation, which haven't been practiced that well.
We're like a beautiful apple infested with worms. Or something.

High crime rates and gun violence and other violence are not necessarily an inevitable part of society, at least not to the degree that they are here. Clearly, there are social and political models in place elsewhere that greatly diminish the horrors we live with in America. I think looking at those models and how they work would accomplish a lot more than the endless "death penalty, no death penalty" debate. America is a terrible country for addressing the reasons that people commit crimes. We're like Western Medicine - we treat the symptom, not the cause of the symptom. We imagine that certain things are inevitable, that that is "just how society is". But it's not, and other countries prove it is not. It is just how we are, because of how we are. America as a concept is violent and greedy. Should we expect the people who comprise America to be different?

Nowthen, about death penalty, my opinion of - I don't value human life very much, especially since there is too much of it. In other species' worlds, assholes will be killed, weak specimens will not survive, and the social construct of the species is conformed to, or else. It is what enables the society to run smoothly, and the best genes to survive. I tend to agree with that somewhat. But when you are talking about humans, they are too complex to make it that simple (I didn't mean to be so Darwinian, but, you know). The thing is also, humans will not be fair. Humans are flawed in ways that the rest of the natural world is not. So just by virtue of knowing that someone, somewhere, could not be treated fairly even in the throes of our supposedly wonderful justice system (not - I mean, just think of Texas) makes me not able to officially endorse the death penalty. I gotta be honest, I don't usually mind about it. But especially knowing how flawed people/America/Justice is, despite what we say - with all the obvious prejudice and political and financial machinations that could, and often are, a factor in "justice", and the fact that I believe that violence begets more violence - America is a prime example of that - I just can't officially support death penalty.

Maybe in another type of system, I would be able to. Maybe if I was a wolf or a cheetah, it would be fine. And I really don't usually mind if bitches die. But looking around the world, I can't help but think our culture begets the ills it is experiencing. Which doesn't make crime right, but it doesn't make the death penalty right, either. The answer is something else, something different, a new paradigm (for us - others already employ the awesome other paradigm).

And the point against the death penalty, is that, injustice for some can easily lead to injustice for all. Although I do agree that our system, for the most part, does give people the chance to prove their innocence. But not so much that I would trust it implicitly. But then you say, well, but do the guilty people actually have to DIE?! And I say, I can't speak very well to that, because I don't care that much if people die. But in keeping with my decision, I would have to say life incarceration. I also actually think life incarceration is much more cruel than death, but that is neither here nor there, I suppose.

Also, a particularly "assholish" part of me thinks that if people didn't keep having kids that they couldn't raise/provide for/EDUCATE properly, that would be really cool. I'd also like to say that the disgraceful state of American education has a part in that. But still. In the rest of the species world, kids aren't a right. They are dependent on resources. Unfortunatly it is a fact that the less educated people are, the more politicians will be able to f*ck them. Doesn't make education a high priority in a capitalist country.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

you give me too much credit. I didnt "decide" anything. Im just reiteriting it. (get a dictionary)

You stated your opinion like it was a fact. That was all I was trying to say.

ok, as to your theory that the Navaho approach being the only one: sorry. I think its a bit presumptuous to engage in a discussion about what the Navaho believe without having them nearby.

Okay. I just got finished with a research paper on the Navajo Nation and the death penalty. But if I'm still not supposed to comment, so be it. Forget the example then.

this is a spectacular misstatement of my intent good work!

Er...thanks! I didn't think you really believed that we should rape rapists, etc...I was attempting to make a point...oh never mind.

Please dont be so silly as to propose simplistic cause/effect isues: the law of Karma is even more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity. I believe that as spiritual beings we choose situations that enable us to learn from our past mistakes.

Give me a break. Are you going to continue applying ridiculousness to this? Karma is more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity? Are you being just a little facetious here? That seems like saying the Bible is better than science. How does spirituality (or religion) belong in this debate?

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

ONLY if a KNOWN innocent is executed.

sorry. If a condemdend DEATH ROW criminal is executed, then he had plenty of time/opportunity to protest. if his protests FAILED< then too stinkin bad.

Well, like I like to tell people good thing you aren't poor and black! 'Cause you could easily be the innocent one who is never proven innocent and has to die anyway. If you've done any research on the death penalty in the United States, you know how blatantly racist it is, how even people who look more "stereotypically" ethnic are more likely to be convicted because people equate their looks with criminality. The death penalty is inherently a biased system anyway. You have human beings deciding the fates of human beings; people are unavoidably fallible. Miscarriage of justice is inevitable anyway, but with our abundance of social ills, the situation is exacerbated.

But I don't guess any of this really means anything to you, based on that statement I'm trying to respond to here.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

well, you just sounded like an alarmist to say otherwise. the sad fact is, when you compare justifiably condemded criminals with potentially innocent criminals, the numbers show that innocently condemned criminals are FAR in the minority;

How can this be proven, anyway? I have never understood that. I'm sure there are people who were innocent and it will never be known that they were innocent. I don't see that it matters anyway, as I said. No innocent person should be executed. It's one thing to be an innocent person serving years in jail and quite another to lose your life. Additionally, I think that murder is just wrong, whether it's a solitary citizen committing it or the government, which is arguably worse.

If you want to indulge your bleeding heart tendancies, then go right ahead.

Thanks for the permission. I think more people should give a ****.

[strandinthewind]

AMBER'S BACK - and vociferous, if not obstreperous, as ever

Seriously - welcome back darlin'

As for the death penalty and convictions in general - of course there are errors and that sucks. But, the US has the best system there is and, in fact, it heavily leans toward the presumption of error, especially when constitutional rights are violated (caveat, the last 40 or so years have seen a gradual breakdown of the Fourth Amendment's guarantee of no illegal search and seizure). So, I think though mistakes do happen, they are the exception and not the rule and there is no better system I can think of. If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.

As for the death penalty - the advent of DNA evidence in the last 15 or so years has exonerated many and convicted many, many more basd o n that alone. So, the system is vastly better than it was.

Is the death penalty or convictions in general a racist thing? It really depends on how you define that word. If you think that poor black people (not all poor people mind you) essentially are doomed to commit crime because of their social position and societal mindset in general - then I suppose the answer is yes, even though the vast majority of the crimes committed are not done out of need like to buy/steal food, etc. For example, the poor in the Katrina fiasco were not stealing bread and drug related crimes amongst minorities are high If you think that though the poor blacks (not all the poor) , like everyone else, are heavily disadvantaged but are still responsible for their actions, then the answer is no. I think that bad people exist in all levels of society and they should be responsible for their actions. I also think that if we as a society did more to help educate, cloth, and feed the poor of all races, there would be far less crime in that a prevalent mindset of the poor is that they have nothing to lose.

As for the death penalty and/or killing the perp at the scene – yes, it would be nice if the police knew for certain that the perp was guilty – a good example is the Cho freak at Va Tech – I say kill him on the spot. But, I know that the law prevents that and rightly so because although things may look one way in the heat of the moment, they may be something else. For example, the police may find a woman killing a man with a gun. She may be doing it in self defense of a rape or her own death – so, killing her then would be unwarranted.

Anyway – my $0.02

[irishgrl]

As for the death penalty - the advent of DNA evidence in the last 15 or so years has exonerated many and convicted many, many more basd o n that alone. So, the system is vastly better than it was.

Thanks for that, I was just about to say the same thing.

and this:

Is the death penalty or convictions in general a racist thing? It really depends on how you define that word. If you think that poor black people (not all poor people mind you) essentially are doomed to commit crime because of their social position and societal mindset in general - then I suppose the answer is yes, even though the vast majority of the crimes committed are not done out of need like to buy/steal food, etc. For example, the poor in the Katrina fiasco were not stealing bread and drug related crimes amongst minorities are high If you think that though the poor blacks (not all the poor) , like everyone else, are heavily disadvantaged but are still responsible for their actions, then the answer is no. I think that bad people exist in all levels of society and they should be responsible for their actions. I also think that if we as a society did more to help educate, cloth, and feed the poor of all races, there would be far less crime in that a prevalent mindset of the poor is that they have nothing to lose.

totally on target. There has to be SOME sort of consequence for criminal acts. Im not 100% comfortable with the death penalty, but as a taxpayer, Im not sure I want to support violent, repeat offenders for the rest of their lives.

Again, in the overall prison population, only a small percentage are actually put to death.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Okay. I just got finished with a research paper on the Navajo Nation and the death penalty. But if I'm still not supposed to comment, so be it. Forget the example then.

I think its unwise to compare disparate cultures, or to think that what works for one culture would necessarily work for another.

Give me a break. Are you going to continue applying ridiculousness to this? Karma is more exacting than Newton's Law of Gravity? Are you being just a little facetious here? That seems like saying the Bible is better than science. How does spirituality (or religion) belong in this debate?

Karma is not ridiculous. Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity. What I was stating in my comment was my belief that we as spiritual beings choose our circumstances so that we position ourselves to learn particular lessons. I think spirituality is very important in this context because a moral center (or lack thereof) is key to a person's acts
Of course, I am aware that an exaggerated belief system can also be a problem

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I think its unwise to compare disparate cultures, or to think that what works for one culture would necessarily work for another.

Wait...you reason changed. Before, you didn't want me to talk about the Navajo because they aren't here. Now you're saying that cultures can't learn anything from one another? No doubt it's insane to push one's culture onto others, but that doesn't mean that that there's nothing to be gained from taking cues from other cultures, or at least considering it.

Karma is not ridiculous. Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity. What I was stating in my comment was my belief that we as spiritual beings choose our circumstances so that we position ourselves to learn particular lessons. I think spirituality is very important in this context because a moral center (or lack thereof) is key to a person's acts
Of course, I am aware that an exaggerated belief system can also be a problem

"Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity." I just had to re-type that because I'm just floored that someone is using karma as an argument for capital punishment in a supposedly secular criminal justice system. Maybe it's as fair as considering what the Navajo believe, but it just cracks me up nonetheless.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

totally on target. There has to be SOME sort of consequence for criminal acts. Im not 100% comfortable with the death penalty, but as a taxpayer, Im not sure I want to support violent, repeat offenders for the rest of their lives.

Again, in the overall prison population, only a small percentage are actually put to death.

Against my better judgement I'm chiming in - but it costs more to keep people on Death Row than it does to keep them in prison for life. Those appeals and what not obviously very costly...so from a taxpayer standpoint alone -wouldn't life with no parole be better than death penalty which costs you, the taxpayer, more?

I'll try to scare up some articles on this little statistic but I know I've read that several times...

[skcin]

I'm with Amber. I'm not really against it, to be honest. In this case, the guy killed a cop, acknowledged his guilt & accepted his penalty.

BUT. To know there are some people who are innocent but could be executed concerns me greatly. To say that their lives don't add up to a hill of beans is shocking to me. Comparing lives to beans? Wow. I know it's just a saying, but wow.

DNA testing has made great advances in recent years, but you need time & money & people WILLING to look at your case again & do the testing. I have to bring up the recent Bike Path Rapist case here. They had the wrong guy in jail for over 25 years. The family & his lawyers had requested DNA testing repeatedly in the past, and they were told the evidence was lost - it suddenly turned up earlier this year. An innocent man (who is schizophrenic, btw) who lost half of his adult life. The ONLY reason his case was reviewed again was because they found the real perp. That's not justice. Thank God the death penalty wasn't an option in this case.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Wait...you reason changed. Before, you didn't want me to talk about the Navajo because they aren't here. Now you're saying that cultures can't learn anything from one another? No doubt it's insane to push one's culture onto others, but that doesn't mean that that there's nothing to be gained from taking cues from other cultures, or at least considering it.

"Karma is a cosmic principle every bit as predictable as gravity." I just had to re-type that because I'm just floored that someone is using karma as an argument for capital punishment in a supposedly secular criminal justice system. Maybe it's as fair as considering what the Navajo believe, but it just cracks me up nonetheless.

I'll try to clarify: I typed that first bit about the Navaho in haste last night and this morning tried to posit a more reasonable argument. Im not saying that other viewpoints arent worthy, certainly what the Navaho do works for them. In a way, I wish we COULD successfully incorporate other cultural solutions.

I dont find the juxtaposition of a spiritual concept with a secular activity so strange, particularly in this case because "intent" is a huge component of any crime. The actor's mind-set.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Against my better judgement I'm chiming in - but it costs more to keep people on Death Row than it does to keep them in prison for life. Those appeals and what not obviously very costly...so from a taxpayer standpoint alone -wouldn't life with no parole be better than death penalty which costs you, the taxpayer, more?

I'll try to scare up some articles on this little statistic but I know I've read that several times...

I'd be interested in seeing those, because if the majority of death row inmates are poor blacks, Im thinking there's probably very few actual appeals going on......