Say WHAT??

[catinthedark]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

In point of fact, the Unitarian Universalists are the ONLY "mainstream" Christian Religion that embraces the gay culture,

nope. again... the united church of canada does. and it is as mainstream protestant as you can get.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by catinthedark

nope. again... the united church of canada does. and it is as mainstream protestant as you can get.

oops I should have also mentioned Unity Church, however it has been considered "fringe" for awhile now...and agreed, I was looking at this from an American point of view. so I'll amend my comment to say the only AMERICAN Christian mainstream religion that OPENLY embraces the Gay Culture is the Unitarian Universalist religion. What happens above or below the border is beyond me.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by carrie721

i guess i don't understand when people say that the homophobic and misogynistic aspects of the bible are outdated and can be dismissed - i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.

The book was tampered with back in Constantine's time (true fact. Please look up the 5th Ecumenical Council). Many of the original texts have been squirreled away in the vaults of the Vatican. Never to again see the light of day because (Just like in Da Vinci's Code) the Catholic Church cant stand too close a scrutiny. And every devout Catholic will vilify me for saying so.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I don't really trust writings translated and re-translated time and time again.

Another thing that really irks me about the Bible is that it has all these accounts.. all these things God's revealed and done for people. And it just stops all of a sudden, because a cave dweller had a vision about how the world is going to end? Give me a break. The text is obviously tampered with, and obviously tampered with to give priests reasons to "punish" people (and then receive payment for offering forgiveness, when that's really between you and God anyway).

I'm not about this whole DaVinci code crap, but I don't trust the Catholic church. Not at all. They actually freak me out a little. I can totally discount uneducated Baptist (and other denominations) hicks who just hate EVERYONE different - not just gays - but everything about Catholics (services, alternate books of the Bible, idolization of the pope, etc) is a horse of a different color to me. I'm not trying to offend anyone.. it's not really individual Catholics, just the group as a scary whole.

[markolas]

Again, UUs aren't really Christian anymore, and most of them would be quick to correct anyone who made the mistake of calling them that.

And I'm not trying to defend the Catholic church in any way, but I've always thought their services were really beautiful, if just from an aesthetic POV. I grew up Baptist, and it's just sitting in hard pews for two hours listening to the preacher bellow at you for two hours, and some untalented hack playing the organ while everyone sings (badly) awful hymns. And there's nothing much to look at - maybe an ugly wooden cross stuck to the wall. Catholic Mass, on the other hand, always appealed to the art fag in me. Thankfully, the tradition of Buddhism I converted to has most of the ritual and none of the guilt. Or cockamamy theology.

Okay, I shouldn't say that. I'll just say that I ultimately couldn't buy what they were selling; if others are happy with it, I think that's great.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by markolas

And I'm not trying to defend the Catholic church in any way, but I've always thought their services were really beautiful, if just from an aesthetic POV. I grew up Baptist, and it's just sitting in hard pews for two hours listening to the preacher bellow at you for two hours, and some untalented hack playing the organ while everyone sings (badly) awful hymns. And there's nothing much to look at - maybe an ugly wooden cross stuck to the wall. Catholic Mass, on the other hand, always appealed to the art fag in me. Thankfully, the tradition of Buddhism I converted to has most of the ritual and none of the guilt. Or cockamamy theology.

they are pretty services - particularly at christmas time. i just think it's a bit much to go through all the motions just to sit down in the freakin pew. i guess it's the rituals that i don't really like. the episcopalian church is much the same way. singing every verse of every hymn... it takes like, 30 minutes, my shoes are uncomfortable, and i just.want.to.sit.down.

4 denominations later.. i don't go to church anymore.

[GypsySorcerer]

I agree with markolas regarding the Unitarian Universalist church -- it is not considered to be a Christian denomination by most mainline churches, and most of its members do not consider themselves Christian (I think only about 10% of their members do so.)

In addition to the Unity Church, the only other mainline denomination I think would qualify as pro-gay would be the United Church of Christ. The Episcopal Church is so-so.

Depending on what day you ask me, I can be anywhere from an agnostic to a liberal Christian. I do not consider the Bible to be the Word of God nor do I consider it inerrant.

Originally Posted by carrie721

i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.

I understand your position and that (among others) is part of the reason I don't attend church anymore. Like Mary said, the Bible has been tampered with time and time again and Christianity today bears little resemblance to its inception.

I do think if you consider yourself a follower of Christ you are a Christian - adhering to the basic tenet "love your neighbor as yourself." Of course, this is found in just about every religion, so

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

I agree with markolas regarding the Unitarian Universalist church -- it is not considered to be a Christian denomination by most mainline churches, and most of its members do not consider themselves Christian (I think only about 10% of their members do so.)

In addition to the Unity Church, the only other mainline denomination I think would qualify as pro-gay would be the United Church of Christ. The Episcopal Church is so-so.

Depending on what day you ask me, I can be anywhere from an agnostic to a liberal Christian. I do not consider the Bible to be the Word of God nor do I consider it inerrant.



I understand your position and that (among others) is part of the reason I don't attend church anymore. Like Mary said, the Bible has been tampered with time and time again and Christianity today bears little resemblance to its inception.

I do think if you consider yourself a follower of Christ you are a Christian - adhering to the basic tenet "love your neighbor as yourself." Of course, this is found in just about every religion, so

and each time its said, its good advice

Im surprised to hear this description of the UU church.....particularly since they fought the Boy Scouts long and hard to be included as a legit religion that a scout could practice and still attain that particular merit badge. If they do not consider themselves Christian, then I stand corrected.

ETA: I was raised Christain, went to Sunday School and all that. I know all the Bible Stories etc....BUT, as I got older, I became aware that there was a whole other aspect to what called itself "Christianity" and that there was much more out there (like the Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls etc) that indicated that the early Church had an agenda. In fact, there was a great schism in the early church regarding the nature of Jesus (divine vs. earthly). Also, Paul is understood to have actually shaped much of what became early Christianity. (even tho Jesus actually appointed Peter to be the "rock upon which his church would be built")

[BlackWidow]

Originally Posted by carrie721

i can't speak for markolas but i'll offer my opinion. it is a basic tenet of christianity that homosexuality is wrong. you can't pick and choose what doctrine you do and don't want to follow in any given religion - it's in the bible. so how can anyone reconcile being gay & christian? i certainly couldn't, so i'm no longer christian. it's the same thing with republicans - that party is about social conservatism, about the mingling of church & state, about doing harm to gay people. simple as that.

you said it!!!! SO TRUE!!!

[irishgrl]

the Republican party harms more than gay people btw.......

[Rickypt]

There is no difference between Giuliani and the leading Dems when it comes to gay rights. I can see why gay Republicans would support him.

My issue isn't that I can't understand why a gay person would be a Republican, it is why anyone would be one.

[BlackWidow]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

There is no difference between Giuliani and the leading Dems when it comes to gay rights. I can see why gay Republicans would support him.

My issue isn't that I can't understand why a gay person would be a Republican, it is why anyone would be one.

The gay - republican thing is just too bizarre for words.
I just do not get it. Talk about turning yourself over to be slaughtered.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by BlackWidow

The gay - republican thing is just too bizarre for words.
I just do not get it. Talk about turning yourself over to be slaughtered.

Again, I don't know why anyone would be a Republican, regardless of sexual orientation. But I also don't think Democrats (at national level) are that much better on our issues than Republicans. No leading Dem candidate supports true equality, Obama and Clinton both bombed on the homosexuality/morality question, they love to raise money from us, but they would rather not have to deal with our issues. Howard Dean went on Pat Robertson's show and made clear that Dems don't support gay marriage.

So maybe we don't get slaughtered by the Dem Party, but we do get treated like dirt. I am a Dem because of other issues not because of its sterling record on gay rights. Again, at the national level. I think it is different at state/local level.

[Sarah]

It's too bad the libertarian party can't get some money and attention.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

Again, I don't know why anyone would be a Republican, regardless of sexual orientation. But I also don't think Democrats (at national level) are that much better on our issues than Republicans. No leading Dem candidate supports true equality, Obama and Clinton both bombed on the homosexuality/morality question, they love to raise money from us, but they would rather not have to deal with our issues. Howard Dean went on Pat Robertson's show and made clear that Dems don't support gay marriage.

So maybe we don't get slaughtered by the Dem Party, but we do get treated like dirt. I am a Dem because of other issues not because of its sterling record on gay rights. Again, at the national level. I think it is different at state/local level.

I agree with you about Dems not being much better than the Republicans; I guess I support them (albeit half-heartedly, and leerily) because while they aren't going to support full equality for us, I don't think they're going to launch a full-fledged assault on us the way the Republicans have, by pushing Constitutional amendments and appointing fascist Supreme Court justices.

For the record, I'm not registered with any party (in Texas, you don't have to be registered as one or the other to vote in primaries, but you can only vote in the primary of one party in a given election), and the Democrats are way too centrist (or they have been) for me on a lot of issues; my sympathies are more with the Greens or the Socialists.

As for Libertarians, they're just Republicans who smoke pot.